Brake upgrade opions needed.

[2fnloud]

Over NG week one of my calipers has started "crunching" while I brake and when I let off.

Hans was awesome to take a timeout to give a listen to identify the problem as the piston is catching while it slides while braking and releasing.

So I figured now is as good a time as any to work my breaks over and upgrade them to meet my stopping goal;

60-0 in under 100FT.

That car is a weekend driver that will honestly only see take time at NG.

So lets here what the experts say.

[JasonY]

My 332 stoptechs are the single best mod i have done to my 99. Being able to dive bomb anyone i wanted in a 2 ton car in the braking zone is just an added benefit w/o brake fade or having that thought your brakes might not be up to the challenge in the back of your mind constantly.

They arent that much more then quality rotors/quality pads/SS lines, rebuilding OE calipers, titanium backing plates(no more melted dust boots!), definitely a worthwhile upgrade. Look great too:)

Jason

[R/T93]

Do what Jason said, but you aint getting 60-0 without getting some very aggressive performance tires.

Plan on spending a grand on a set of 275 wide tires to be able to do that.

[2fnloud]

I never put tires into the factor, I do have quite the aggressive tire on now. just not 275's

[IPD]

imho, the first step is upgrading the 2g OEM to better parts; slotted rotors & high-performance pads. there are several owners who favor this approach; although i believe that most those who feel this is sufficient are not running full-weight cars.

if you do decide to upgrade to bbk, i would go directly to 355; i would not stop at 330, as it's not a significant jump in performance over 2g OEM size. likewise, the 380 or larger sizes are extremely cost prohibitive. the cost difference between 330 and 355 is usually fairly small.

[2fnloud]

Can you still fit factory rims with those big bad boys?

[JasonY]

imho, the first step is upgrading the 2g OEM to better parts; slotted rotors & high-performance pads. there are several owners who favor this approach; although i believe that most those who feel this is sufficient are not running full-weight cars.

if you do decide to upgrade to bbk, i would go directly to 355; i would not stop at 330, as it's not a significant jump in performance over 2g OEM size. likewise, the 380 or larger sizes are extremely cost prohibitive. the cost difference between 330 and 355 is usually fairly small.

And utterly pointless to go 355 over 332(laughable to think anyone needs 380+mm brakes) also just as pointless to spend the money to go 2g brakes if you need to source everything. I've done all 3 you mention, the 332 ST's are the best mod ive done in a long long time.

The 332's will allow fitment of all 2g OEM rims, even 17's which make track tires affordable:)

Jason

[IPD]

not pointless, jason. there's advantages and disadvantages to everything. for instance, if you plan on running 2-piece rotors, it's a good idea to go with a larger kit--due to the reduced heatsink of the 2-piece design.

i'm curious to hear about your experiences with 355's.

p.s.

he's already got 2g brakes, so a rotor/pad upgrade is by far the cheapest option.

[JasonY]

Considering I actually tracked my car and ran the fucking shit out of it this week and didnt have brake fade with what is basically a very aggressive street pad in a 2 ton car on a 2.3 mile course in 3 15 minute sessions burned half a tank of gas in only 60 miles. I also used my brakes a lot more then needed since i was a little cautious about bending up my prized possession...

I've also gone 160 to a dead stop in a 100% full panic stop w/o the slightest fade:)

332's are all you need. I've actually done it, not read about it...

Jason

[2fnloud]

he is saying that performance doesn't justify the cost of the 380's.

and he is also right that the 355's are only 500 more than 332's in the big picture, that isn't allot more.

[2fnloud]

Honestly my stock set-up and probably original brake fluid only failed my one lap on the road course in it wasn't complete brake fade, it just wasn't was strong the previous lap. I was my first time out and Philip instructed me that I was braking way more than what was needed.

My other times out I never experienced brake fade at all and I couldn't smell my brakes until my last lap.

On Auto-X brake fade was never an issue.

Please do not turn this into a bickering match

[JasonY]

But you cant run stock wheels on the 355's.

Jason

[2fnloud]

that is a major deciding point right there, thank you

what is the general consensus of EBC pads and rotors? Yellowstuff was recommended by someone at NG, a 3SX crewmember IIRC.

I bought the 3SX SS lines at NG.

[JasonY]

R/T93 has the most experience on beating on OEM hardware, he'll be the person to ask on which parts to use.

Carbotech AX6's have been the best pads ive ever run, little dusty but epic braking power, the bobcat is a better "street" pad, but i prefer overkill. He also runs them on OE calipers with the same opinion. Rotors, ive had good luck with powerslots, unsure what he ran before going to the SCE 2-piece rotors.

Sorry for the bickering, the "bigger is mandatory" babble really sets me off since its so horribly wrong info i also have to step in and give my opinion and experience.

Jason

[2fnloud]

Considering I actually tracked my car and ran the fucking shit out of it this week and didnt have brake fade with what is basically a very aggressive street pad in a 2 ton car on a 2.3 mile course in 3 15 minute sessions burned half a tank of gas in only 60 miles. I also used my brakes a lot more then needed since i was a little cautious about bending up my prized possession...

I've also gone 160 to a dead stop in a 100% full panic stop w/o the slightest fade:)

332's are all you need. I've actually done it, not read about it...

Jason

That is also great to know, I don't see getting my car up to that speed at any NG road course event. I only made it a point to look once, I got up to 125 in the straight away, and know it wasn't the lap that I went lawn mowing. ;)

[JasonY]

The 160-0 was horsing around with a Porsche on the highway and having a light change that i was A LOT closer to than i thought..lol

Jason

[IPD]

R/T93 has the most experience on beating on OEM hardware, he'll be the person to ask on which parts to use.

Carbotech AX6's have been the best pads ive ever run, little dusty but epic braking power, the bobcat is a better "street" pad, but i prefer overkill. He also runs them on OE calipers with the same opinion. Rotors, ive had good luck with powerslots, unsure what he ran before going to the SCE 2-piece rotors.

Sorry for the bickering, the "bigger is mandatory" babble really sets me off since its so horribly wrong info i also have to step in and give my opinion and experience.

Jason

jason, i agree with pretty much everything you've said. for the record, i didn't say bigger was mandatory. it's quite possible to get decent performance from the 2g calipers with carbotech.

my only point of contention is that IF someone wanted to upgrade from stock 2g, i feel that 355 is the ideal "stopping point". if you're happy with your 330's--great! each to his own.

p.s.
that's still no experience with 355's.

[JasonY]

I had 355mm brembo's on my 93...I like the ST's better, little better feel and are lighter. No discernible difference in braking power.

Jason

[R/T93]

My suggestion would be this:

Get 2 mitsubishi caliper rebuild kits, P/N MB857261

Buy a semi aggresive street pad for the front, Carbotech AX6 or Porterfield R4S, get something less expensive for the rear, I personally run Hawk HP+ on the rears.

Get these, no exceptions. They are cheap and good.
Supercar Engineering (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=15&products_id=136)


1998 MITSUBISHI 3000GT VR4 Front Brake Rotors - Cross-Drilled & Slotted eds.46052 (http://www.r1concepts.com/mitsubishi-3000gtvr4-1998-brakes-EDS.46052.htm)
These are decent affordable front rotors, you could get the rears too, but honestly stock blanks are more than satisfactory. If your stock front rotors are still in good shape you can use them, but if they have been turned a couple times, its time for new ones.

You already have SS lines so thats great, spend 45 dollars on 3 pints of Motul 600 brake fluid, or something with greater than 500 degree temperature rating. Valvoline has a decent Synthetic DOT 4 fluid you can buy at auto parts stores for half the price than the Motul.

So all in all, these parts with a well bled system will work harder than you can imagine. I was able to lap my car with NO fade and had complete confidence in this setup lap after lap after lap. I wasnt braking as hard I could have, I had an instructor with me, he realized we were 4200 lbs + and he asked me if my brakes were doing OK, the next stopping zone I used about double the pedal pressure I was previously and the instructor almost couldnt believe the rate which we slowed for such a heavy car.

You can PM me if you have any other questions. I would be happy to answer.

Pretty much if everyone ran with a brake system like this no one would complain about brake fade again unless they were 400+ awhp and running high speed courses. Jason got the trophy 332's cuz they look SICK, and he got them on sale. I cant stand the people that think these brakes are junk when they are running OEM pads and Napa dot 3 brake fluid.... what do they expect.

[2fnloud]

Any objections to AMSoil series 600 DOT4 brake fluid? I use all their other lubricants, just asking.

[2fnloud]

The AMSoil series 600 brake fluid has a boiling point of 683.2 F so if that is the "temperature rating" I would say its good.

[R/T93]

Should work excellent.

[UTRacerX9]

I run Motul 600 and Porterfield R4S. Had the Carbotechs but they dust a lot more than the Porterfield's do, and I couldn't tell much of a difference for street driving. Never had the Carbo's on a track, Porterfield performs well with SS lines. I've also got 1st gen stock rotors. That was all the upgrade I needed to be extremely competent on the street, so I never bothered to upgrade rotors/calipers. I did get some brake fade after a few laps of AutoX, but it really wasn't that bad. My car weighs considerably less than stock though.

If I was going to track the car more often bigger rotors are a necessity.

[Jimvr4]

+1 on Porterfield R4S pads and Motul 600. I ran my 91 VR4 on a two day event with stock 1G calipers and stillen rotors with these pads and fluid and goodridge SS lines. You get pretty serious braking performance with this setup. I would start there before making the investment into the StopTech stuff.

http://jns.jimnshar.com/0bd80a90.jpg

[TurboSinceBirth]

I just bought a Stoptech 332mm BBK for my car. I have Brembo F40 calipers with adapters on the car right now. I never really got to test them but they're much beefier than 2nd gen calipers. I'd be willing to make you a deal.

[2fnloud]

PM me with what you are thinking and I will research the setup.

[R/T93]

Damn, get that, lol

[2fnloud]

Also TurboSinceBirth, will I still be able to use my 17" stock rims?

[TurboSinceBirth]

Also TurboSinceBirth, will I still be able to use my 17" stock rims?

Without fitting a set on I'm not too sure. I would think so but I also have aftermarket 18" Pro N1s with a 38mm offset. Right now the brakes are on 2nd gen rotors so I'm sure it would work. I don't know much about these brakes whether you can use bigger rotors with them or if brackets were made for the calipers way back as a group buy. I could never find much info about them.

[2fnloud]

What color are the calipers can you send me pics, and a price?

[95gto]

You can run ss lines, upgraded fluid, good rotors, and an aggressive street pad and you should be fine.

For your application slots or cross drilling isn't super essential on the rotors so long as they are a quality/heavy part. Although I believe Pete posted an article that showed cross drilling did improve brake performance on the street due to improved cooling. And the slotting is supposed to help but it does eat your pads faster. At the end of the day just buy a quality part and you should be fine.

For fluid I run Motul RBF 600 and have never had it boil but ATE Super Blue should also work just fine or any other fluid with a similar wet boiling point.

With regard to pads my experience has mainly been with ebc and for a car driven mostly on the street I would recomend ebc reds. You could go up to yellows but they have a weaker cold bite than the reds, although its not a huge difference. The deciding factor is if you want to deal with the weaker initial bite of the yellows in favor of their better hot performance on a track. Since you don't track the car often that is why I suggested the reds over the yellows. I have also heard great things about carbotechs and I'm sure Phillip could make some awesome recomendations for you if wanted to go that route.

[i3igpete]

I personally had bad experiences with two sets of reds basically crumbling after 2 hard sessions, so i wouldn't recommend them.

for fluid i personally use ATE blue/gold, i just make sure to do a full flush at the start of the season and quick bleed before each event. I've never needed the high temp of motul but then again my car is a bit lighter than a stock car - i also take an easy lap every 4th lap, to try and cool everything down.

i think philip also stopped selling the titanium backing plates (i couldn't find them on the website), you might want to give him a ring a double check.

[95gto]

I personally had bad experiences with two sets of reds basically crumbling after 2 hard sessions, so i wouldn't recommend them.

for fluid i personally use ATE blue/gold, i just make sure to do a full flush at the start of the season and quick bleed before each event. I've never needed the high temp of motul but then again my car is a bit lighter than a stock car - i also take an easy lap every 4th lap, to try and cool everything down.

i think philip also stopped selling the titanium backing plates (i couldn't find them on the website), you might want to give him a ring a double check.

Wow I have never heard of the reds crumbling like that. I know Von ran on those with his black car at both NG09 and NG10 but I guess it is also dependent on how hard you push the brakes. Given your experience then I would air on the side of caution and use yellows.

[2fnloud]

I only found the backing plates for big brakes.

I know I have / had the goal of 60-0 in under 100' before NG. Thing is my brakes only let me down slightly in the lap that caused me to do off the track at turn one. Then I didn't even have total brake fade. After that I learned to pump my brakes allot sooner to test them, I also braked allot less after that run.

Phillip instructed that I was braking too much, and I could smell the result about the third lap. After that I couldn't smell them until what ended up being the white flag lap, so by then I am taking it easy to cool down the braking system.

I have the 3SX stainless lines, I will definitely get:

Caliper Re-build kits
AMSoil Series 600 DOT 4 Racing Brake Fluid
Supercar Caliper Stiffening Bolts
Speed Bleeders
Carbotech Panther Plus (AX6) Front Pads
Carbotech Bobcat Rear Pads

I have gathered that this is still an acceptable combination for street

Front Rotors
Rear Rotors

Rotors will either be solids or just slots...I have seen enough pictures and proof that cross drilled crack.

[i3igpete]

yeah i think i've posted pictures before, don't know if you saw them:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/i3igpete/misccarstuff/DSCF2089.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/i3igpete/misccarstuff/DSCF2132.jpg

on the second set , the paint on the edge of the pad went from red to black to yellow :dontknow:

also, just in case, pick up an extra front and rear speed bleeder when you order them. i think maddog had one of those leak, and it's cheap insurance so you don't have to tow your car home.

[JasonY]

I only found the backing plates for big brakes.

I know I have / had the goal of 60-0 in under 100' before NG. Thing is my brakes only let me down slightly in the lap that caused me to do off the track at turn one. Then I didn't even have total brake fade. After that I learned to pump my brakes allot sooner to test them, I also braked allot less after that run.

Phillip instructed that I was braking too much, and I could smell the result about the third lap. After that I couldn't smell them until what ended up being the white flag lap, so by then I am taking it easy to cool down the braking system.

I have the 3SX stainless lines, I will definitely get:

Caliper Re-build kits
AMSoil Series 600 DOT 4 Racing Brake Fluid
Supercar Caliper Stiffening Bolts
Speed Bleeders
Carbotech Panther Plus (AX6) Front Pads
Carbotech Bobcat Rear Pads

I have gathered that this is still an acceptable combination for street

Front Rotors
Rear Rotors

Rotors will either be solids or just slots...I have seen enough pictures and proof that cross drilled crack.

Here are the plated:
D460 Titanium Brake Shim for Mitsubishi 3000GT, Nissan 300Z, Subaru WRX [TS-T-D0460] : Hard Brakes - TiSpeed Titanium Brake Backing Plate Heat Shield Shims (http://hardbrakes.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_282_309&products_id=32&zenid=0233ab7d0788bb01d648a09c1eb26c29)

Jason

[2fnloud]

yeah i think i've posted pictures before, don't know if you saw them:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/i3igpete/misccarstuff/DSCF2089.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/i3igpete/misccarstuff/DSCF2132.jpg

on the second set , the paint on the edge of the pad went from red to black to yellow :dontknow:

also, just in case, pick up an extra front and rear speed bleeder when you order them. i think maddog had one of those leak, and it's cheap insurance so you don't have to tow your car home.

Thank you I will do that.

[95gto]

I only found the backing plates for big brakes.

I know I have / had the goal of 60-0 in under 100' before NG. Thing is my brakes only let me down slightly in the lap that caused me to do off the track at turn one. Then I didn't even have total brake fade. After that I learned to pump my brakes allot sooner to test them, I also braked allot less after that run.

Phillip instructed that I was braking too much, and I could smell the result about the third lap. After that I couldn't smell them until what ended up being the white flag lap, so by then I am taking it easy to cool down the braking system.

I have the 3SX stainless lines, I will definitely get:

Caliper Re-build kits
AMSoil Series 600 DOT 4 Racing Brake Fluid
Supercar Caliper Stiffening Bolts
Speed Bleeders
Carbotech Panther Plus (AX6) Front Pads
Carbotech Bobcat Rear Pads

I have gathered that this is still an acceptable combination for street

Front Rotors
Rear Rotors

Rotors will either be solids or just slots...I have seen enough pictures and proof that cross drilled crack.


Sounds like a solid recipe

And Pete those pads are scary, I had not seen that before.

[Slacker1357]

for anyone thinking of brake upgrades... try EBC slotted rotors and yellow stuff. Holy crap. with stock calipers, my SL was stopping pretty good on the track...

just my $0.02

[2fnloud]

After a few E-mailes from Philip at supercar, I have a solid idea where to go, and to slacker1357.....be careful with your EBC rotors, check them regularly at the point where the rotor joins to the hat, they like to break. Philip steered me away from them.

[Chris GTO TT]

After a few E-mailes from Philip at supercar, I have a solid idea where to go, and to slacker1357.....be careful with your EBC rotors, check them regularly at the point where the rotor joins to the hat, they like to break. Philip steered me away from them.

And what did he say?

Sent from my HTC EVO

[B-Man]

+1 on Carbotechs. Best thing ever was after Mark rode with my during Autox, he told me "I didn't think we were gonna stop" for the first hard right after the first slalom :lol:

[IPD]

2fnloud, that's why i'm a fan of 2-piece rotors. well that, and the hats are easy to paint. i figure that 355 2-pieces are about like 330 1-pieces for being a heatsink. but i freely admit that part of the reason i want a BBK is aesthetic.

[2fnloud]

The list looks good. I would keep the stock rotors. Slots and dimples do not do anything performance-wise if you use good carbon pads, such as Carbotech. I do not remember the appearance of EBC rotors, but if the disk is attached to the hub not the same way as stock, do not buy them because will crack and explode into pieces. Same with Stillen rotors. Stock rotors are good and safe.

That is what he said

[R/T93]

My dust shields are melted/deteriorated and my AX6 pads are 95% GONE after 400 miles of lapping, lol. I was hoping for more longevity, Bobcat/XP10 are in my near future.

Brake fluid was BLAAAAACK!!!

[JasonY]

Yeah, you've definitely moved up from the AX6 which ive settled on being an excellent street pad for people who drive like idiots:D

Jason

[2fnloud]

Yeah, you've definitely moved up from the AX6 which ive settled on being an excellent street pad for people who drive like idiots:D

Jason

Thanks, I drive like an idiot?!? ;p

[R/T93]

You will like them a LOT. Idiot :)

[2fnloud]

I am sure I will.