19T varients and HP numbers

[GTOJOE]

Hi All,

Just wanted to start a thread about the different versions of the 19Ts and what feedback people have on them. So I wil post the common ones I know of and what details I know and see what people have to say.
All of these are priced without returning/sending cores. Some are cheaper if you send in yours etc.
There are also a few other models that produce similar HP numbers [correct me if I'm wrong about this] like the DR650 and the 3SXecutioners so I have included them. I have no idea what wheels they are based off.
Ideally I would like a set of DR750's but I'm not sure I can stretch my budget that far. Thus the researching of 19T models etc.

In no particular order:

[please note the pricing is as per each website at the time of the origional post. If you would like me to update it please send me a pm or post in the thread]

Midwest Turbo Connection
TD04HL 19T with step gap piston rings and upgraded thrust parts
$1710.00
MHI TD04 to 19T upgrade (http://shop.midwestturboconnection.com/MHI-TD04-Upgrade-to-19T-TD04-Upgrade-to-19T.htm)

IPS Motorsports
TD04HL Level-2 19T
$2149.00
IPS Motorsports (http://www.ipsmotorsports.net/product_info.php?cPath=3543_3550_986_993_3128&products_id=3119)

TD04L Level-1 19T
$1849.89
IPS Motorsports (http://www.ipsmotorsports.net/product_info.php?products_id=2382)

Dynamic Racing
TD04HL 19T
$2299.00
Dynamic Racing :: - Dynamic Racing DR-19T Turbo Set (http://www.dynamicracing.com/customer/product.php?productid=511&cat=189&page=1)

DR650 BILLET
$2199.00
Dynamic Racing :: - Billet DR-650 turbo set (http://www.dynamicracing.com/customer/product.php?productid=585&cat=189&page=1)

DR700 BILLET [TD04HL]
$2999.00
http://www.dynamicracing.com/customer/product.php?productid=586&cat=189&page=1

DR750R BILLET [with custom HL sized Titanium exhaust wheel]
$3599.00
http://www.dynamicracing.com/customer/product.php?productid=584&cat=189&page=1

Ground Zero Performance
TD04HL Super 19T
$2727.00
http://www.3swarehouse.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=412&category_id=158&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

TD04HL 747 BILLET
$3250.00
http://www.3swarehouse.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=569&category_id=190&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1&vmcchk=1&Itemid=1

Street Tuned Motorsports
TD04L 19T
$1900.00
STM: FP | FORCED PERFORMANCE | 19T TURBOS | 3000GT/STEALTH (http://www.streettunedmotorsports.com/parts/fp_3000gt_19t_turbos.htm)

PMP Motorsports
TD04 19T [no info on exhaust wheel]
$1849.00
http://www.pricematchedparts.com/index.php?p=product&id=3866&parent=143

3SX
TD04HL 19T
$2839.95
TD04 Turbos - TD04-HL 19T*-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=27449)

TD04HL Billet Wheels 19T
$3349.95
TD04 Turbos - TD04-HL 19T * BILLET WHEELS **-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=30033)

3SXecutioners
$2939.95
TD04 Turbos - The 3SXecutioners - Bolt-In 500 AWHP Potential!!! 3SX Executioners*-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=23924)

C3 Motorsports
TD04HL 19T
$2321.96
C3Motorsports - 3000GT/Stealth, Corvette, Mustang, Camaro, Charger, Performance Auto Supply Car Parts & More! - TD04 19T's (http://c3motorsports.com/3000GT/Stealth/Turbos/TD04-19T-39-s/prod_1.html?added=1)

TurboChargers.com
TD04HL BILLET
$3249.00
http://www.turbochargers.com/store/product_info.php/cPath/21_30/products_id/2346?osCsid=78f70287daa266d1660848f4ab3ecdc9

dtc2002
A recent addition. A member on here is now offering a machining service to upgrade your turbos to 19T. This involves purchasing a 19T cartridge from Kinugawa [already balanced] and having him machine your compressor and exhaust housings to match. His details can be found below. He is hoping to have some dyno results for these up soon. He is able to supply the cartidge or you can supply your own.

http://www.3sgto.org/f62/custom-machining-6288.html



I think that is all, but no doubt I have missed a few. Please advise/post up any other seller you are aware of or had any experience with.

Discuss!!!!! Tell us what numbers you have achieved with any of these turbos. What other mods you had to achieve them etc.

Cheers,

Joe

[vr3.9]

Don't know if there's any information on these yet, but I'll throw them out there cause I would love to see some results on them to compare to the DR700's.

Stealth/3000GT Super BILLET Upgrade (Set of 2) 650HP
[18-10059] $3,249.00

Stealth/3000GT Super BILLET Upgrade (Set of 2) 650HP - Turbochargers.com (http://www.turbochargers.com/store/product_info.php/cPath/21_30/products_id/2346?osCsid=78f70287daa266d1660848f4ab3ecdc9)

[peterkottemann]

I donot have input as to your original post, but as you seem to have done a lot of research I would like to ask you a question. is the 19t the largest core that comes with a td04 casing? also, are there any other turbo cases that can be bolted to the block with minimal modification?

[JasonY]

I wonder if my current 19T's can easily be upgraded with the billit wheel? I already have the machine work done assuming the billit wheel is the same O.D. as the cast 19T wheel and i cant imagine the billit compressor has its own special HL turbine wheel to match the smaller shaft on the compressor side.

Thoughts anyone?

Jason

[Emilie@GZP]

You forgot our Billet td04's :)

http://www.3swarehouse.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=569&category_id=190&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

[vr3.9]

I donot have input as to your original post, but as you seem to have done a lot of research I would like to ask you a question. is the 19t the largest core that comes with a td04 casing? also, are there any other turbo cases that can be bolted to the block with minimal modification?

Dr750/DR700 I think would be the largest tdo4 bolt on followed by GT368's or something like that. Not sure about the new ones from turbochargers but I believe they have a Borg Warner billet compressor wheel that may be as big as the DR's but don't know any confirmed info. I think they should give me a pair and let me put down 650awhp so they can sell a bunch. I think someone made some bolt on 16g's as well. Stay away form the GT's. They have such small shafts they fail early. You also have the choice on some of the upgrade builds with the WRX housing like the 13Ts but with 19t wheels. I would like to see something like the Borg Warner/DR size Billet wheels in WRX housing.

[TurboSinceBirth]

Out of all those turbos listed I would go with the billet DR-650 turbos. They're about in the middle price wise and we already know they can make good power with few mods. Just look at Ray's 95 VR-4. I think they're a better bang for the buck and DR makes quality products.

[GTOJOE]

One of the main things I was interested in is claimed numbers. The link posted above by vr3.9 says they are capable of 650whp. The GZP Super 19T says 620hp and the gzp 747 says 600whp. The DR650 says 550+whp. I guess I should put the DR700 and 750 models in here cus from what I can tell they are basically 19T sized [or very close to it] wheels. So basically the DR700 is a billet 19T? and the 750 is the same but with a custom light weight titanium exhaust wheel for faster spooling?

[GTOJOE]

I wonder if my current 19T's can easily be upgraded with the billit wheel? I already have the machine work done assuming the billit wheel is the same O.D. as the cast 19T wheel and i cant imagine the billit compressor has its own special HL turbine wheel to match the smaller shaft on the compressor side.

Thoughts anyone?

Jason

My understanding on this is that the shaft is infact the same. Just the billet wheel is stronger so they can cut it closer to the shaft [more flow] giving it the appearance the shaft is smaller. I can't see why you couldn't just buy a billet wheel and get it fitted and balanced.

[GTOJOE]

FYI

Billet Compressor Wheels
Billet Compressor Wheel-Billet Compressor Wheel Manufacturers, Suppliers and Exporters on Alibaba.com (http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?SearchText=billet+compressor+wheel&Type=&CatId=0&IndexArea=product_en&Country=)

[mb3000]

Blouch does 13g, 16t, & 19t, but their prices are astronomical.

[IPD]

dale's 97 vr4 runs 19t's (i can't remember the type) and he's got the fastest td04 car in the world right now, iirc. specs should be somewhere floating around on FSR's webpage. i'll try and see if i can find it.

*edit* here's what i could find:


25psi on full weight car, full interior, stock cams, stock heads, stock intake manifold, stock turbo manifolds, no nitrous, full TD04 19T's (no WRX housings!) along with an intercooler good for 400HP, street tires, road race suspension, OS Giken Twin Disk Clutch (thank GOD) and AEM EMS tuned by FSR Motorsport Creations.


that's from back when he ran a 10.85, full-weight. not sure what he's done since.

[GTOJOE]

Are there any numbers from WRX 13T converted to 19T vs. 9b -> 19T? Assuming they both are using the same HL exhaust wheel?

[IPD]

Are there any numbers from WRX 13T converted to 19T vs. 9b -> 19T? Assuming they both are using the same HL exhaust wheel?

i don't know much on the specifics of the different housing sizes for td04's. i do know that whatever can be done to a td04 to improve efficiency can also be done to td05's; and that if i'm not happy with my evo's, i may eventually upgrade them to billet. :D

p.s.

has anyone ever tried using evo9 16g's? 10cm housing sounds bitchin!

[mrgtott]

I think your right on the money in terms of explanation into the difference between dr700 and dr750, Joe. I remember Matt went through in a post and explained the differences, which were pretty much what you mentioned. imo 19t turbos are the best bang for you buck 500awhp+ turbos you can buy.

I did a fair bit of research and settled on a pair of 19t from IPS. I bought the 'L' wheels for two reasons, I got a great deal on them but also because my main priority is making decent power without compromising response. I hate street cars in which you have to wait for 4k rpm to spool up, thats just sill. Mind you HL wheels will spook up before 4k but not as quickly as the L wheels. The HL will make 30awhp more on average from what I have read but with a could hundred rpm lag.

Its generaly recognised that the 19t's will outperform the dr650, maybe not massively but still do outperform them. I've been running my turbos for about 2 months now at 14psi (waiting for the new clutch and gearbox and emu to go in) and so far has been perfect.

[IPD]

while it's generally accepted that 19t's easily outperform legacy 650's; i doubt the margins are substantial (if they even favor the 19t's) with the new billet 650's. never underestimate the billet wheels. 650's are probably the cheapest billet td04's you can get, and they're very, very good.

[Emilie@GZP]

We will hopefully have our gzp747 vr4 on the dyno today or tomorrow. (Hopefully today!) So, we will have some solid numbers on those turbos shortly :)

[Emilie@GZP]

And the numbers posted on most websites for turbos, is from the manufacturer, an educated guess based on the size, parts, wheels, etc.

[J. Fast]

I can't see why you couldn't just buy a billet wheel and get it fitted and balanced. You can just buy just the billet wheels. FP and Blouche sell them. All you have to do is rebalance the chira assembly and do the machine work w/ lathe and press. You will need an upgraded HL hotside as a minimum tho. You can buy billet TD-04 wheels with more area than an EVOIII wheel.

The upgrade is stupid cheap if you already have an HL turbine hotside, a friend with a lathe, and a turbo balanicing shop local to you. It's under $1000 for a billet conversion with new seals.

[JasonY]

My 19T's do have the HL turbine wheel, so i guess i will just upgrade mine since i really cant afford the 3k+ investment into the DR turbos or the like.

Jason

[NOMIEZVR4]

Ive got my 13t's->19t conversion done, just waiting on a few odds before the car gets running.

[UTRacerX9]

while it's generally accepted that 19t's easily outperform legacy 650's; i doubt the margins are substantial (if they even favor the 19t's) with the new billet 650's. never underestimate the billet wheels. 650's are probably the cheapest billet td04's you can get, and they're very, very good.

I haven't seen any numbers for a billet DR650 set up, what have they done?

[CoopKill]

I haven't seen any numbers for a billet DR650 set up, what have they done?

x2, along with spool info on 600's to 650's and 700's to 750's.

Something about 9b-ish spool in a 600whp capable snail that negates cost for me...

[IPD]

http://www.3sgto.org/f2/1st-test-dr650-billets-2652.html

[SnakeSkinner]

I haven't seen any numbers for a billet DR650 set up, what have they done?

the Billet DR650's have put down 519 AWHP on a stock 180k+ mile motor, threw stock inter coolers, and even stock Exhaust.

The Dr700's have already put down over 600 awhp with a stock motor on the 1st car they were ever dynoed on

The DR750's have also put down over 600 AWHP on a few cars with stock motors.

[ChargerX3]

Did a lot of research as well. Wish i had a shop and the tools to make my own, but Billet DR650's were the way to go.

[SnakeSkinner]

Its generaly recognised that the 19t's will outperform the dr650, maybe not massively but still do outperform them.


Show my a 19T car that has made 519 awhp thew stock Exhaust, and Stock intercoolers, on a stock motor.... 19T's have been on the market for these cars for what 7-8 yrs, 99% of them have not made that with FMIC's, and aftermarket Exhaust.

Out of the probably 1000+ 19T cars out there there are what maby 5 or so that have ever supplied proof of making more then that no matter how long the list of sporting mods was.

[Sin'sVr4]

I had 19T's with the L wheel and made over 500whp. But, i just upgraded to the HL wheels and im putting the hks dli so i can up my boost. Those numbers were only at 21psi. too. Hopefully now i can get closer to 600whp. we'll see. If i could do it over id go with the DR750's. Christ going thru 5 sets of turbos def couldve bought matts. Ugh... Do it right the first time...if you cant afford it now, wait and save up.

[92RT-TT]

Not a big deal but just for accuracies sake, our TD04HL 19T's with upgraded thrust parts and step gap piston ring is $1710.00.

[GTOJOE]

Not a big deal but just for accuracies sake, our TD04HL 19T's with upgraded thrust parts and step gap piston ring is $1710.00.

1st post updated. However I believe at the time your website also listed a core charge.

[Chatzvr4]

Theres alot competition for td04 turbos. damn. how much are rebuilds for these bad boys?

[GTOJOE]

Theres alot competition for td04 turbos. damn. how much are rebuilds for these bad boys?

LOL this is just the 19T or similar varients. I haven't even looked into 15G or 13G varients.

There are many rebuild options for standard 9b's

one example MHI TD04 Rebuild for 9B, 13G, 13T, 15G, and 19T turbos (http://shop.midwestturboconnection.com/MHI-TD04-Rebuild-TD04-Rebuild.htm)

[Sin'sVr4]

just fyi, Dave at midwest turbo is great at customer service and explains everything. I will be getting my turbos back from being redone from him hopefully bext week. They do amazing work and great prices for members.

[GTOJOE]

We recently hijacked Sin'sVR4's dyno run thread so I thought I might move that info over here as it's more suited. So if we want to discss numbers and compare versions etc we can do it here.

EVOIII numbers are from IPO's car with sttock heads and cams.
19T HL numbers are from Sin'sVR4's car
Both WRX19T numbers are from oohnoo's car
DR750 numbers are from TT Eric's car

I would like to see some DR750 numbers on straight pump. pearlyellow on 3si is currently working on this I believe. I'm not aware of anyone else running these and straight pump.

EVOIII 3500rpm 350AWTQ E85
19T HL 3500rpm 390AWTQ E85
WRX19T 3500rpm 400AWTQ pump
WRX19T 3500rpm 400AWTQ race
DR750 3500rpm 540AWTQ pump +meth

EVOIII 4000rpm 475AWTQ E85
19T HL 4000rpm 495AWTQ E85
WRX19T 4000rpm 425AWTQ pump
WRX19T 4000rpm 485AWTQ race
DR750 4000rpm 610AWTQ pump +meth

EVOIII 4500rpm 615AWTQ E85
19T HL 4500rpm 550AWTQ E85
WRX19T 4500rpm 435AWTQ pump
WRX19T 4500rpm 530AWTQ race
DR750 4500rpm 635AWTQ pump +meth

EVOIII 5000rpm 695AWTQ E85
19T HL 5000rpm 495AWTQ E85
WRX19T 5000rpm 425AWTQ pump
WRX19T 5000rpm 540AWTQ race
DR750 5000rpm 595AWTQ pump +meth

[TurboSinceBirth]

I don't mind seeing the numbers for DR-750 turbos and pump gas but I also feel what's the point if you're buying turbos only to do that? I don't think pearlyellow will be but I know some people want to. They need to be run high 20s psi to really shine. The 3500 rpm tq number is very cool though. Imagine more torque down low than an all motor Viper. :D

[hated]

Here's another option. 2 year warranty as well.

http://www.coloradoturbo.com/store/catalog/index.php/cPath/245

[GTOJOE]

Can a mod rename this thread "TD04 varient discussion" or something similar? then maybe certain ppl can use this thread instead of hijacking others :lol:

[VR-4 0wnz j00]

Didnt we use to have a collection of dynos with the mods and gas? It would be a lot easier to compare if people listed the mods as well as the dyno.

[Sin'sVr4]

I did mine on a Mustang Dyno and my mods are

91 VR4--->
E85 tune,
19THLs
DR billet forged 15psi wastegates,
780 PTE inj
3SX Fuel loop
ss fuel lines
Block bored .060 over
weisco pistons
3sx custom forged rods
forged crank
99 big bore lifter
Heads--- new valves, springs, valve guides, vss
Heads port n polish
HKS DLI
AEM EMS
AEM UEGO wideband
prosport oil and boost guages
aeromotive 1000 FPR
Dejon blow thru twintakes
Twin Walbro 255's w/ 3sx hotwire kit and custom -an fitting fuel pump w/ STM filter to pump line
GT-pro FMIC
25 row oil cooler
Megan Racing Aluminum radiator
IPS DP
Borla 3" exhaust
Hallman evo rx MBC w/ in cabin controller
Blitz SS BOV
R1 Drilled slotted rotors

[98slept]

I did mine on a Mustang Dyno and my mods are

91 VR4--->
E85 tune,
19THLs
DR billet forged 15psi wastegates,
780 PTE inj
3SX Fuel loop
ss fuel lines
Block bored .060 over
weisco pistons
3sx custom forged rods
forged crank
99 big bore lifter
Heads--- new valves, springs, valve guides, vss
Heads port n polish
HKS DLI
AEM EMS
AEM UEGO wideband
prosport oil and boost guages
aeromotive 1000 FPR
Dejon blow thru twintakes
Twin Walbro 255's w/ 3sx hotwire kit and custom -an fitting fuel pump w/ STM filter to pump line
GT-pro FMIC
25 row oil cooler
Megan Racing Aluminum radiator
IPS DP
Borla 3" exhaust
Hallman evo rx MBC w/ in cabin controller
Blitz SS BOV
R1 Drilled slotted rotors



oh wat i didnt know you had bigger pistons and port n polished heads. Im so dissapointed now. whats your compression? 8:1? or 8.3:1 or 8.5:1?

[IPD]

wow. 3si is alive and well. odd that this is the MOST matt has posted on 3sgto in months. he doesn't even update his vendor section or threads over here.

[GTOJOE]

Yeah I found that quite funny as well. I don't think he's happy that another turbo setup came within 50hp of his for a lot less money :D I'm all for discussion about what turbos are capable of what power etc but spamming someone elses thread and plugging your own business is just poor form. Everyone knows the DR750 is the ultimate TD04. No-one is arguing that fact. He needs to just calm the fuck down :lol:

[JasonY]

Well in the real world, my 19T HL's didnt hold a fucking candle to the DR750 car that shared a space at the same house. Gas to gas they dont stand a chance.

But they are twice the price, you either want the best and are willing to pay for it, or you dont.

Jason

[mb3000]

Well in the real world, my 19T HL's didnt hold a fucking candle to the DR750 car that shared a space at the same house. Gas to gas they dont stand a chance.

But they are twice the price, you either want the best and are willing to pay for it, or you dont.

Jason

/any argument about the 750's.

[IPD]

Well in the real world, my 19T HL's didnt hold a fucking candle to the DR750 car that shared a space at the same house. Gas to gas they dont stand a chance.

But they are twice the price, you either want the best and are willing to pay for it, or you dont.

Jason

and if you want high-performance twin-turbo awd, you either buy a vr4 or an r35 gt-r. ....just sayin.

[Sin'sVr4]

Jason, i bought my original 19t's from you :) But, your right...the DR750's are beast, but so are the 19Thl for what they really are. the numbers that were posted about my numbers are not right. mine are closer to what jfast posted.

[Sin'sVr4]

And my numbers i just plotted on teh graph and they are pretty close to these numbers. Honestly, I dont care who's numbers are what, except that this car is a kick ass fun riot to drive and smokes about everything around. The DR'd are great, but i dont think its fair to compare them to the 19T's. But all in all, great comparison in every range!

EVOIII 3500rpm 350AWTQ E85
19t HL 3500rpm 450AWTQ E85
WRX19t 3500rpm 400AWTQ pump
WRX19t 3500rpm 400AWTQ race
DR750 3500rpm 540AWTQ pump +meth

EVOIII 4000rpm 475AWTQ E85
19T HL 4000rpm 605AWTQ E85
WRX19t 4000rpm 425AWTQ pump
WRX19t 4000rpm 485AWTQ race
DR750 4000rpm 610AWTQ pump +meth

EVOIII 4500rpm 615AWTQ E85
19t HL 4500rpm 635AWTQ E85
WRX19t 4500rpm 435AWTQ pump
WRX19t 4500rpm 530AWTQ race
DR750 4500rpm 635AWTQ pump +meth

EVOIII 5000rpm 695AWTQ E85
19t HL 5000rpm 585AWTQ E85
WRX19t 5000rpm 425AWTQ pump
WRX19t 5000rpm 540AWTQ race
DR750 5000rpm 595AWTQ pump +meth

[familyMAN]

The evoIII run was E95.

[BaadVR4]

My 19THL set up made 535 AWHP/530 AWTQ on pump gas with meth spray above 10psi boost. Max boost was 21 psi. The motor was fully built and the turbine side just couldn't hold boost to red line, it just fell off to about 18psi above 6000 rpm. This exact engine with 16Gs makes 609 AWHP/600 AWTQ on pump gas with meth spray above 10psi. This tune up is at 23 psi, which the turbos hold to red line. The 16Gs will hold 25-28pis to red line, but this is my wife's DD, so we kept the tune conservative.
The only increase in expense for the 16Gs was the initial expense to change the headers/O2 housings. It is now cheaper to rebuild/replace the 16Gs than it is the 19T HLs. And there is nothing "modified" about the turbos, so they can be rebuilt by any reputable shop for the same (or less) than the 19T HLs since they aren't modified. And replacing a blown turbo is cheaper because it's a stock turbo, not a highly modified turbo that requires special machining/modifications which many turbo shops don't (or won't) do. Just my 1.5 cents worth.

[familyMAN]

Cool comparison Baad!

[BaadVR4]

Thanks. If you have different engine/head/cam/fuel combinations, then the turbo changes can't be considered "apples to apples" comparisons. My results even used the same tuner as well as the same dyno. Even the air temps were very close....70* to 80*. About as close to "back to back" dyno runs as you can get with completely different exhaust/turbo set ups. Even the fuel injectors were the same units. I literally took the 19T HLs off the car and installed the 16Gs and went back to the dyno for a re-tune about two weeks later.


Cool comparison Baad!

[Sin'sVr4]

So why would the 19THL cost more tahn a 16g to rebuild once the conversion is done? Should be a normal rebuild kit that cost 49.99. How is your trq so low? My dyno sessions were both in 100+ temps outside. I wish i ran in 70* temps....

[92RT-TT]

As far as rebuild kits go and also for instance having us rebuild either 16G's or 19T's the price is the same.

This will be its own thread in the next few weeks but just as a teaser.... lets just say Midwest Turbo Connection is going Billet... One of the turbo's we are working on putting into production is a Billet TD05 (The compressor wheel is similar in size to a 20G but the design is completely new and it makes more power as tested on an Evo). There's lots more to say but that will come in the next few weeks. There will be TD04's after that... but I want to wait to make a thread about all this and I'll go into more details and post dyno numbers and pics etc.

[familyMAN]

How is your trq so low?

He is probably not running E85. Big difference.

[familyMAN]

This will be its own thread in the next few weeks but just as a teaser.... lets just say Midwest Turbo Connection is going Billet... One of the turbo's we are working on putting into production is a Billet TD05 (The compressor wheel is similar in size to a 20G but the design is completely new and it makes more power as tested on an Evo). There's lots more to say but that will come in the next few weeks. There will be TD04's after that... but I want to wait to make a thread about all this and I'll go into more details and post dyno numbers and pics etc.

Don't think this post belongs in a 19t thread buy definitely start a thread about billet td05 options!

[92RT-TT]

Don't think this post belongs in a 19t thread buy definitely start a thread about billet td05 options!

That's true. I would put more info on the TD04's but we only have the TD05's done so far :/.

[vr3.9]

I don't mind the TD05 interruption. While one might think the DR750's have put an end to all arguments I still find myself wanting to build a td05 car. I love my no lag kick in the pants 13t's, but I will be building my 93 someday and really want something that's different. 16G's with quick spool and 600hp potential on pump would fit pretty nicely.

[familyMAN]

I don't mind the TD05 interruption. While one might think the DR750's have put an end to all arguments I still find myself wanting to build a td05 car. I love my no lag kick in the pants 13t's, but I will be building my 93 someday and really want something that's different. 16G's with quick spool and 600hp potential on pump would fit pretty nicely.

Oh, I definitely want more info on billet td05s but think it deserves it's own thread with info and pricing:)

I suppose they could post some pics of billet 19t's to keep it on topic;)

[BaadVR4]

You are all correct that a simple wear parts rebuild will cost about the same 19T vs 16Gs. It's been my experience that 19Ts don't make it to "wear parts only" rebuilds all that often. Additionally, the modifications done during most 19T conversions cause the rebuild intervals to be shorter than stock 9Bs or 16Gs. In that sense, rebuild costs increase due to being needed more frequently and often needing more than wear parts (read that exhaust housings). Also, in the not so unlikely event that I need to replace the turbos, the 16Gs are going to be less expensive, because they are not modified.

As for the torque on my engine, I'm running pure 92 octane pump gas with only meth spray above 10psi boost and not an alcohol mix like you are. If we want to concern ourselves with why any given number is low, then why is your horsepower so low? I gave my numbers only as a true "apples to apples" comparison for a good set of 19Ts (made by one of the leading turbo shops at the time) versus a set of bone stock 16Gs. Every thing was exactly same except the turbos. I made no attack on your car or your numbers, or what make/model of dyno they were run on, or what correction factor may have been used in calculating the final numbers, so please don't attack my numbers. Just read them for what they are. And if you feel your car is so vastly superior to mine............so be it. But please brag in your own thread titled "My car makes more torque than your car". Oh, and by the way, my car has over 500 AWTQ at all rpms from 4500 to 6500 and over 600 AWHP at all rpms from 5200 to 7200. And, if it makes any difference, this is on my wife' daily driven car with all the accessories, including AC fully functional. One last thing: if you read my post you'll see this was "a conservative tune at 23 psi".


So why would the 19THL cost more tahn a 16g to rebuild once the conversion is done? Should be a normal rebuild kit that cost 49.99. How is your trq so low? My dyno sessions were both in 100+ temps outside. I wish i ran in 70* temps....

[BaadVR4]

He is probably not running E85. Big difference.

This. But the point was "how do good quality 19Ts compare to stock 16Gs?". That was what I was trying to show. I've done three 19T cars. One of them made 557 AWHP and 540 AWTQ. But that wasn't my car, and I didn't put a pair of 16Gs on it an redo the dyno with zero changes like I did mine. My experience with ALL of the 19T cars was the turbos had a short lifetime. Maybe that was the builder's fault, but there were two different builders and both had/have excellent reputations. More likely it was because the initial turbo cores were used.

My tuner also pointed out that the 19Ts "ran out of steam" on fully built motors with ported/polished heads. Even with the HL wheels, the hot side of the turbos just stalled somewhere between 5000 and 6000 rpm. So the 19Ts wouldn't hold 23 psi. They fell off to 16-18 psi by red line. That's why 16Gs running the same 23 psi I had the 19T boost controller set at made so much less HP AND TQ. The 16Gs simply flow more air than the 19Ts. At least more than my 19Ts.

That said, I'm sure DR 750s will equal or exceed my 16Gs. Initial investment cost is similar. I have no knowledge of longevity and/or reliability compared to stock 16Gs. But I would expect ANY DR product to be as good or better than any equivalent item in the market place. But also remember that DR 750s are not "upgraded 9Bs". They have a billet wheel with a totally different design. If I were to ever do a TD04 car for MAX performance, it would have DR turbos.

[IPD]

19t = repurposed 9b

dr750 = repurposed 13t

iirc....

[BaadVR4]

And, if all else fails, please READ my original post:
"The only increase in expense for the 16Gs was the initial expense to change the headers/O2 housings. It is now cheaper to rebuild/replace the 16Gs than it is the 19T HLs. And there is nothing "modified" about the turbos, so they can be rebuilt by any reputable shop for the same (or less) than the 19T HLs since they aren't modified. And replacing a blown turbo is cheaper because it's a stock turbo, not a highly modified turbo that requires special machining/modifications which many turbo shops don't (or won't) do. Just my 1.5 cents worth."

Permission granted to take special note of the portion I italicized and put in bold letters. And the part about the 16Gs being "cheaper" actually reads "cheaper to rebuild/replace".

For a modest sum, I'd be willing to tutor you in English.


So why would the 19THL cost more tahn a 16g to rebuild once the conversion is done? Should be a normal rebuild kit that cost 49.99. How is your trq so low? My dyno sessions were both in 100+ temps outside. I wish i ran in 70* temps....

[GTOJOE]

19t = repurposed 9b

dr750 = repurposed 13t

iirc....

I doubt 13T. 13T are WRX turbos only and they look a lot different to the pic on the DR website. IIRC they are all based off 13G turbos. All good/reputable shops start with a new MHI 13G and work up from there. However it is perfectly safe to rebuild 9bs IMHO.

13T
http://projects.205gtidrivers.com/albums/205mi32-ph8/205Mi32_Ph8_017.jpg

13G
http://xpauto.net/mm5/graphics/00000001/13G-1.jpg

DR750R
http://www.dynamicracing.com//files/t_584.jpg

[BaadVR4]

I think whether or not you can use a rebuilt 9B is a function of how good the exhaust housing is. If the turbo has a lot of miles, the exhaust housings get fatigued and will crack under the increased load from upgrading.

On a slightly different topic, it is possible to put "small 16G" compressor wheels in the WRX housing. I had a set of turbos with them installed. There was little to no difference between them and the 19Ts. They are slightly larger than the 19Ts, so I suppose they might be just a bit better. Just another variation on what can be done with the TD04s.

And if anyone is interested, the GT-368 turbos used Volvo turbo compressor housings.

[GTOJOE]

There was some debate on gtooc about the difference between the 9b exhaust wheel and housing the the 13G. I always assumed they were the same. Apparently not. So perhaps that's why they are the prefered base for upgrading. I had assumed the only reasonthey were used was due ot the compressor housing being bigger but maybe it's a combination of both.

[mb3000]

Possibly the 13G had the single "H" or "L" wheel.

[GTOJOE]

Here's another option. 2 year warranty as well.

Mitsubishi, Colorado Turbo Rebuild LLC (http://www.coloradoturbo.com/store/catalog/index.php/cPath/245)

Hated, I tried to look through this site for the appropriate part numbers but without a database of what part numbers are used for what models etc it's very hard to work out. With thehelp of "the google" I was able to find some part numbers etc but if you happen to know the correct part numbers for the TD04HL-19T cartidge that would be great.

[Sin'sVr4]

im just curious where anywhere in my statements I "attacked" your numbers? I was only asking. I am not bragging nor have i ever. I still dont see how its cheaper to rebuild 16g's over 19t's. You spend more money on the td05 manifold and o2 housings than machine work for the HL wheel. So....and if the rebuild kits are exactly the same where are the differences? Looks to me that the 19T's would be actually cheaper overall. If im not reading this right just let me know. TD05 = buy new TD05 manifold, o2 housings, dump tubes and external wastegates...19T= machine work for HL wheels, stock wastegates, stock manifolds, .....


And, if all else fails, please READ my original post:
"The only increase in expense for the 16Gs was the initial expense to change the headers/O2 housings. It is now cheaper to rebuild/replace the 16Gs than it is the 19T HLs. And there is nothing "modified" about the turbos, so they can be rebuilt by any reputable shop for the same (or less) than the 19T HLs since they aren't modified. And replacing a blown turbo is cheaper because it's a stock turbo, not a highly modified turbo that requires special machining/modifications which many turbo shops don't (or won't) do. Just my 1.5 cents worth."

Permission granted to take special note of the portion I italicized and put in bold letters. And the part about the 16Gs being "cheaper" actually reads "cheaper to rebuild/replace".

For a modest sum, I'd be willing to tutor you in English.

[GTOJOE]

Yeah that doesn't sound right to me either. If they are rebuilt with quality components then there is no reason why they won't last just as long as factory/oem and there is no reason why they would be more expensive to rebuild than a TD05. Unless the wheel comes in contact with the housing then all that needs to be replaced are the same components that would be replaced in a normal oem rebuild.
If you really think it's an issue then buy a genuine TD04HL-19T cartridge then everything is OEM and the only modification is the housing machining.

[BaadVR4]

The vast majority of 19T upgrades don't start with brand new MHI turbos. They start with some form of used TD04 turbo. Used=less reliable. Then the compressor and exhaust housings are machined/modified. These modifications reduce the strength of these components. Less strength=less reliable. In many upgrades, the compressor housings are sleeved, further degrading its strength.
Now this modified turbo is placed in an operating environment where it is stressed way beyond its original design parameters. Even after mods, a 19T is still a smaller turbo than a 16G and has to work harder to flow the same amount of air. This greater stress on the components would make even a 19T that started out as a brand new MHI turbo less reliable than a 16G that was unmodified.

Think of it this way: If I modify a new MHI OEM 9B turbo to make a 19T turbo, the modified turbo will have less longevity and less reliability than the same turbo if it were not modified. And the modified turbo will experience greater stress than a stock turbo.

For these reasons, I'm certain that new, unmodified MHI 16G turbos will last longer and have fewer and less catastrophic failures than highly modified 9B turbos, even new 9B turbos.

One last way to understand my point: The 16G turbo set up has full strength OEM components operating in an environment which is LESS stressful than the turbo's design. The 19T turbo set up has highly modified components which have reduced strength compared to stock and operate in an environment which is MORE stressful than the unmodified components were designed for.

Conclusion: IF we are talking "wear parts only" rebuilds, there is little or no difference in cost. But that's not a realistic expectation of what will happen in the real world application of the two products. One product is reduced in strength from modifications and then operated under conditions which create strain way beyond the design of the components BEFORE modification. The other product retains full component strength and is operated under conditions which create less strain than the components design. Real world result is 19T (and pretty much all highly modified turbos) wear out sooner and are more likely to have catastrophic failures.

[dtc2002]

An upgraded 19t from a 9b w/o an HL wheel/shaft is pointless. The standard shaft cannot cope with the added stress from the 19t wheel over time and will lead to premature wear. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with a QUALITY non-OEM CHRA. As we all know, in some instances, non-OEM parts are just as good, if not an improvement over the original parts.

I personally feel that boring out existing 9b/td04 housings is OK, as long as the job carefully done and inspected. There is plenty of material left in both housings to withstand any abuse you throw at them. The compressor housing will only see pressure from boost, and a miniscule amount of force from the piping. The turbine housing will see very little difference in exhaust pressure and the force from the exhaust tubing on it shouldn't be too bad as it is on rubber hangers and SHOULD have flex couplings to absorb the forces. Anyway, if the compressor housing should be an issue, there is a 19t specific housing that you can get that is pretty darn nice, you only need to put a silicone coupler on the rear turbo as it isn't available with a female outlet.

[Sin'sVr4]

so how many have you had to rebuild due to extreme wear and catastrophic failure?


The vast majority of 19T upgrades don't start with brand new MHI turbos. They start with some form of used TD04 turbo. Used=less reliable. Then the compressor and exhaust housings are machined/modified. These modifications reduce the strength of these components. Less strength=less reliable. In many upgrades, the compressor housings are sleeved, further degrading its strength.
Now this modified turbo is placed in an operating environment where it is stressed way beyond its original design parameters. Even after mods, a 19T is still a smaller turbo than a 16G and has to work harder to flow the same amount of air. This greater stress on the components would make even a 19T that started out as a brand new MHI turbo less reliable than a 16G that was unmodified.

Think of it this way: If I modify a new MHI OEM 9B turbo to make a 19T turbo, the modified turbo will have less longevity and less reliability than the same turbo if it were not modified. And the modified turbo will experience greater stress than a stock turbo.

For these reasons, I'm certain that new, unmodified MHI 16G turbos will last longer and have fewer and less catastrophic failures than highly modified 9B turbos, even new 9B turbos.

One last way to understand my point: The 16G turbo set up has full strength OEM components operating in an environment which is LESS stressful than the turbo's design. The 19T turbo set up has highly modified components which have reduced strength compared to stock and operate in an environment which is MORE stressful than the unmodified components were designed for.

Conclusion: IF we are talking "wear parts only" rebuilds, there is little or no difference in cost. But that's not a realistic expectation of what will happen in the real world application of the two products. One product is reduced in strength from modifications and then operated under conditions which create strain way beyond the design of the components BEFORE modification. The other product retains full component strength and is operated under conditions which create less strain than the components design. Real world result is 19T (and pretty much all highly modified turbos) wear out sooner and are more likely to have catastrophic failures.

[BaadVR4]

Five. Three from one vendor, two from another. Average lifetime on the 19Ts that failed was right at 8K miles. Stock OEM 9Bs typically last 100k+ miles. The difference is how hard the turbos are stressed.


so how many have you had to rebuild due to extreme wear and catastrophic failure?

[BaadVR4]

I disagree that the stresses on the modified turbos are only marginally more than stock OEM 9Bs. Heat is what kills. And added heat is the hallmark of increased horsepower. And the added heat is what kills the turbos. The most frequent victim component is the turbine exhaust housing, as that is where the increased heat has the greatest effect.


An upgraded 19t from a 9b w/o an HL wheel/shaft is pointless. The standard shaft cannot cope with the added stress from the 19t wheel over time and will lead to premature wear. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with a QUALITY non-OEM CHRA. As we all know, in some instances, non-OEM parts are just as good, if not an improvement over the original parts.

I personally feel that boring out existing 9b/td04 housings is OK, as long as the job carefully done and inspected. There is plenty of material left in both housings to withstand any abuse you throw at them. The compressor housing will only see pressure from boost, and a miniscule amount of force from the piping. The turbine housing will see very little difference in exhaust pressure and the force from the exhaust tubing on it shouldn't be too bad as it is on rubber hangers and SHOULD have flex couplings to absorb the forces. Anyway, if the compressor housing should be an issue, there is a 19t specific housing that you can get that is pretty darn nice, you only need to put a silicone coupler on the rear turbo as it isn't available with a female outlet.

[dtc2002]

And what, in your findings is actually happening to these turbine housings? Are they warping, cracking, are they expanding and interfering with the turbine wheel?

[JasonY]

The turbine housings crack where they are the thinnest, right after the turbine wheel, happened to my 19T's which were bored out to fit HL wheels.

Jason

[GTOJOE]

Jason where they 9b based or 13G? I would love it if one of the vendors would jump on here and explain their process and what the difference between 9b and 13G exhaust housings are.

[JasonY]

9b. Were they related? Im not sure, but it does support another instance of what baadvr4 is referring to.

Jason

[dtc2002]

Hmmm, well, since this has been brought to my attention, and seems to be multiple instances of this happening, I'll include reinforcement to any 9b housing that I machine from here foward at no additional cost.

[92RT-TT]

The In many upgrades, the compressor housings are sleeved, further degrading its strength.

If you use epoxy to bond a sleeve to the compressor housing then yes it would be weaker. We've come across people that basically machine the original inlet off, but they dont go all the way through and then they just epoxy a new inlet on. Anyone with any bit of fabrication skill would never do it that way.

Here is what we do. (I am simplifying so realize this is not every step)
1. Bore original inlet out completely so you have no inlet.
2. Take a 2 inch long piece of aluminum machine it so it has to be pressed into the inlet bore that we created.
3. Press the 2 inch long piece all the way into so it is flush with the back side of the compressor housing. (1 inch of this piece is sticking out of the compressor housing... this is the new inlet nozzle that you connect your intercooler piping to, the remaining inch is what actually goes all the way through the compressor housing which is what makes them just as strong as the original housings).
4. Weld the new inlet that is press fitted into the compressor housing. We weld all the way around so literally the only way this would come apart is if you melt the entire compressor housing down because not only is it press fitted in, its fully welded in.
5. Bore the new inlet to the correct size so we can have a straight bore. That means if the compressor wheel inducer is 1.8 inches (just throwing a number out there) then the inside diameter bore of the inlet is going to be a few thousands over that and it will be a straight bore meaning we do not neck it down at all.

That is how you have a strong compressor housing. It's the only way we do 19T's. Anyone who necks them down so they dont have to put a new inlet on is cutting corners. If the opening of the inlet is smaller then the compressor wheels inducer then obviously its not going to be as efficient or make as much power as one that has a straight bore.

We have had 4-5 sets of 15G's and 19T's come in from a certain builder. What he does is machine only down by where the compressor wheel is to the appropriate size for the wheel, but from the opening up to that point is not machined out enough and is very close to the original size. This obviously is not conducive to high performance as it is restricting how much air the turbo can suck in.


Also there are absolutely no differences in a 13T, 15G, 19T Bearing housing or the components inside of it. Of course the compressor wheel and the turbine shaft are different on those bigger turbos but the shaft diameter is the same its not like an HL wheel has a bigger shaft. All the wear parts are the same... so stating that they will wear out faster because they have been modified and are now weaker is not true. There are rebuild kits for flat backs and for superback turbos. There is NO difference in kits for a 13T superback or a 19T superback rebuild kit. THEY USE THE SAME PARTS. If an upgraded turbo were to fail it would be due to improper care procedures such as hot shut downs etc.

We've done hundreds and hundreds of turbos now for 3S's, Evo's, Supras, WRX's, Grand Nationals, S4's and none of them have had issues with wearing out faster then an oem due to them being modified. If you have a competent builder and you use quality parts there is no reason why an upgraded turbo will fail. If we were concerned with failures on modified turbos we wouldn't offer a 1 year full warranty on them. How many places offer a 1 year warranty on products that are for a performance application? DR I'm sure offers a warranty too as do several other performance companies that modify turbos and if any of us were concerned about our modified turbos failing sooner then an oem turbo we wouldn't offer warranties like that now would we...

Like anything on the internet... take what I've said or not. I'm not trying to sell our turbos so dont think that's what this is. We dont post up often as we are too busy and booked out a 3-4 weeks as it is but I felt I needed to speak up and clarify a few points that people had made in this thread. I simply dont like reading posts by people who are trying to pretend they know what they are talking about when they obviously have no clue.

[IPD]

good info. only one problem.

if we take your method to be 100% free of premature failure, and the alternative to be certain of premature failure....how do we know what's what?

it's not like you can easily tell the method used; especially to an untrained eye. worse, it's not like shops advertise what methods they use (most don't) nor is it easy to separate the chest-thumping & BS from legitimate facts. hell, even some of our most reputable vendors like to spew a LOT of BS at times (i'm not naming names, but there's a few).

i think milt's point is valid. with a 16g, it's not guesswork. 19t's are a great bang for the buck--and assuming they're built properly or whatnot & are damn near bulletproof--they're worth the cost. but you have a LOT of research to do before you pull the trigger on 19t's. big 16g's are cake.

that's my $.02

[J. Fast]

The vast majority of 19T upgrades don't start with brand new MHI turbos. They start with some form of used TD04 turbo. Used=less reliable...Now this modified turbo is placed in an operating environment where it is stressed way beyond its original design parameters. Even after mods, a 19T is still a smaller turbo than a 16G and has to work harder to flow the same amount of air. This greater stress on the components would make even a 19T that started out as a brand new MHI turbo less reliable than a 16G that was unmodified.

Think of it this way: If I modify a new MHI OEM 9B turbo to make a 19T turbo, the modified turbo will have less longevity and less reliability than the same turbo if it were not modified. And the modified turbo will experience greater stress than a stock turbo.

For these reasons, I'm certain that new, unmodified MHI 16G turbos will last longer and have fewer and less catastrophic failures than highly modified 9B turbos, even new 9B turbos.

One last way to understand my point: The 16G turbo set up has full strength OEM components operating in an environment which is LESS stressful than the turbo's design. The 19T turbo set up has highly modified components which have reduced strength compared to stock and operate in an environment which is MORE stressful than the unmodified components were designed for.

Conclusion: IF we are talking "wear parts only" rebuilds, there is little or no difference in cost. But that's not a realistic expectation of what will happen in the real world application of the two products. One product is reduced in strength from modifications and then operated under conditions which create strain way beyond the design of the components BEFORE modification. The other product retains full component strength and is operated under conditions which create less strain than the components design. Real world result is 19T (and pretty much all highly modified turbos) wear out sooner and are more likely to have catastrophic failures.

Interestingly enough I had a conversation in person with Brian Smothers which happens to be the owner of Colorado Turbo this afternoon. We had a discussion for about an hour or so regarding the problems with hybrid variant TD-04 turbos and precision. You are correct in saying that rebuilt turbo's are less reliable; my understanding from the conversation I had today leads me to believe it has nothing to do with "stress". Flat out plain and simple it has to do with precision. Reason being, when rebuilding any turbo you must mill the turbine shaft. What you cut out has to be added back in (just as if it were a crankshaft and you had to add the cut depth to the bearings and get “oversized bearings”). Often turbos coming in for rebuilds are so far out of spec they can't be salvaged because there's not enough room after re-machining to get it back into a spec where it will mic and/or balance. Tolerances are so small turbine shafts cannot be milled enough to get them within the .00x" that's the minimum mic'd allowance Mitsu specifies on their turbos. This sort of leads into a really jacked up situation with TD-04/05 rebuilds.

MHI cores are stupid expensive right now, and you just can’t get them without paying out the ass so builders are currently left with a dilemma (and what I think after having the discussion this afternoon is a test of ethics), replace the seals and send it back out because fully rebuilding a turbo that can’t be had “right now” is cost prohibitive. Consequently what I think is happening is Chinese parts are being tossed in there or only bearings and seals are being replaced and the wheels and shafts are being put back in without being milled and rebalanced. A customer or shop will take that rebuild and "bolt it back up and in a very short time the turbo will frag, or it will show signs of being down on performance by having a lower boost threshold, or peak hold. Will it make noise, maybe, maybe-not? Will it blow oil, maybe, maybe-not? Will it balance if checked? Fuck no, but who is going to check, the customer, retailer, maybe the turbo installer? Nope, they don't posses that kind of precision equipment so it goes in there blindly as a question mark.

In our discussion this morning, Brian mentioned turbo rebuilders often receive turbos with components which exceed rebuilding standards. By the time they finish cutting and milling everything the turbo often would be unusable. Ultimately the assembly needs to be scrapped. For that reason his shop does not rebuild cores for MHI frames. They remove and replace the entire chira. Brian receives TD-04’s all the time. When they come in he puts them on the balancer, and then mic's them. 9 out of 10 are garbage, totally garbage, and no amount of machine work can be done to salvage them, because of the historical track record he will not rebuild them nor warranty a rebuild on them.

After that discussion it sort of came to me, the right way to rebuild a TD-04 (same goes with TD-05) turbo, throw away the chira assembly and buy a new one. The kicker is where rebuilders or those seeking rebuilds buy those cartridges from. Reputable places for rebuild shops to buy chira's? Melett (out of the UK), Kawasaki (out of Japan), another Japan MFR I care not to share, and a MFR out of TX, that’s pretty much it because the MHI plant in Japan is not in production of just chira assembly's or new MHI TD-0X cores because of the a nuclear disaster.


As far as MHI cores being the best, that's not true either. I literally saw a perfect example of that today. A brand new MHI 16G chira out of the box vs. a Melett, vs. a Kawasaki, vs. an un-namable due to proprietary info, was balance and mic’d before my eyes. The MHI actually had the most “slop” in it, and there literally was none. The precision of the other turbos was actually better. Better balance, better components, better machining… all those lead to better harmonics = better boost control = better turbo.

Anyway, that’s my opinion on the precision part of the subject matter, now let’s talk about stress. As you start to modify a purpose built turbo by changing the rotational weight, bearing and journal diameters, and thrust you redistribute stress quite differently. Changing any one of those things actually changes the harmonics of the turbo. Just like engines, turbos also rely on harmonics which can evaluate stress. So how do you keep the stress down? You buy a purpose built 19T-L or HL turbo. Not a Frankenstein, ie… we took a 13g and made it a 19T. The minute you modify that purpose built turbo into something else you change the harmonics so unless you own the best precision cutting, polishing, and turbo balancing equipment in the world, all bets are off. The key is to find out what is Frankenstein vs. what has been precision built. Precision purpose built chira’s for 19T are available from MHI, Kawasaki, Melett, and two other places I know of (not China or Taiwan BTW). The stress is the same if not less than a stock purpose built MHI turbo as they are purpose built and harmonically designed and balanced with absolute perfection.

Realistically, IMO the price to rebuild is the same. Knowing now what information I was privileged enough to hear, rebuilding any MHI is just silly. You throw away the chira assembly and replace it with a new one. Does it have to be an MHI assembly? No. Why would you use an MHI if there’s a better replacement component available with better precision and better tolerances? $400 for a new chira for any 9, 12, 13, 14,15,16,19, TD-04 is what they retail for, just the same for the TD-05's.


Sort of closing out our chat Brian concluded, it's unfortunate a number of TD-04 and TD-05 turbo builders are using salvaged cores. 9 times out of 10 that's a huge no-no because the frames are so small that polishing and cutting is cost prohibitive. Alas, in many instances the turbo cores are complete garbage so turbo retailers are left with “turd polishing". They replace worn parts with new, new bearings, seals, maybe a wheel and then out they go. Will they work, yes? Will they make noise, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Will it balance? Fuck no! No one would know any different unless they owned a balancing machine. The true test will be when you lean on them and they become doggy, they smoke a little, engine performance goes down and seems down on power because the turbos themselves won't hold boost or the boost threshold starts to taper and then boom turbos go out again... rinse and repeat with a rebuild.

My conclusion, any reputable rebuild shop should balance test and mic a turbo before they rebuild it, you should have to pay for that service. Shops that don’t require you to pay probably aren’t doing it and shouldn’t be in business if they don’t charge. IMO If they aren’t charging for the service they aren’t checking. If they aren’t checking, why would they check after it’s rebuilt to compare before and after? 90% of all TD-04 or TD-05 or any smaller frame turbo with oil for piston rings that has coked must be scrapped and the chira replaced with a new one. You just can't get them back within tolerance so why rebuild it? Don’t! Buy new purpose built chira’s and be done with it.

19T-HL = still cheaper than other options and cost just as much to maintain as an OEM MHI TD-05. Positives for both, the precision on some of the chira’s being produced for 04 and 05 frames is better than Mitsubishi Heavy Industries itself. Negative on 19T - makes less peak power as 16g. One thing to note, from what I've seen on the dyne it actually has near same avg TQ and HP as 16g, Milt.

More cool information, Kawasaki Japan now manufactures a 19T-HL chira assembly with a billet wheel :).

[GTOJOE]

You wouldn't happen to have the part number for that billet 19T CHRA? I looked through his site yesterday but unless you have the mitsu part number it's useless.

Mitsubishi, Colorado Turbo Rebuild LLC (http://www.coloradoturbo.com/store/catalog/index.php/cPath/245)

[J. Fast]

He's not passing out part numbers anymore and won't list them. The part number will be the one on your compressor housing so it will be meaningless because he will send you whatever type of chira cold and hot you want, straight from Japan. If you need me to get you some first hand info, lemme know. I'd be happy to do some leg work on this side of the pond for you.

[BaadVR4]

All good info. How's this analogy work:

Engine #1 is a stock 3.0l 6G2, making 300 HP on stock turbos, turning a max of 7200 RPM
Engine #2 is a fully built 3.0l 6G72 with 19T turbos, making 500 HP, turning a max of 7200 RPM

Which of these two engines would you expect to have the longest lifespan? While this thread is nominally about turbos/modifications/longevity, it really is about how modification to produce more power affects longevity of the modified components. If you take a completely stock engine and modify it enough to double (or even triple) the original design power, it WILL NOT last as long as a totally stock motor. That's true even when the pistons/rods/crankshaft are replaced with stronger aftermarket parts.
My congratulations to the vendors who "do it right". I've always said it is cheaper to spend the money to do it right than it is to do it over. Using better parts and better processes will result in a superior product. That said, does a superior highly modified TD04 have the same expected longevity of a totally stock TD05 16G? The superior TD04 is still going to be operated at power levels that far exceed its original design parameters. That means the modified turbo has to provide far greater air flow than it was originally designed to flow. The stock 16G on the other hand, provides the same (or greater) air flow without exceeding its original design flow.
I'm not terribly knowledgeable about turbo design or turbo modifications. I have been building/operating full race engines and extreme performance street driven engines for almost 50 years. In all that time, I have never experienced a situation where a highly modified street engine exhibited greater longevity than a stock engine. In the 7 or 8 years I've been modifying the 6G72 TT engines, nothing I've experienced/heard/read has been different than my previous experience. My opinion is you should not expect the BEST 19T variant turbos to last as long as a pair of stock 16Gs on a daily driven street car. That's just my 1.5 cents worth.

[VR-4 0wnz j00]

Ive been reading this, good info, but Im not sure why you guys are talking about 16G's when the thread is 19T varients and HP numbers...Something to consider.

[92RT-TT]

J.Fast. Some interesting info that you got there. Although I will say at Midwest Turbo we have never and would never turn down a turbine shaft if it had wear on it. That is a recipe for disaster. We blueprint every turbo, which is why after we get a turbo we dis-assemble it, clean it, then inspect the turbine shaft for wear, inspect the journal bearing bore, piston ring seat etc. If a turbine shaft or a journal bearing bore or the piston ring seat is out of specs then we discard those parts. If we use questionable parts and the turbo fails... thats on us and we have to honor the warranty so we dont take any short cuts when it comes to making sure every part is within the manufactures specifications. I think that there are definitely shops that dont mic the parts and I'm sure those are the ones that have lots of failures.

If a turbine shaft has any wear at all on it we will not use it. We have tons of worn turbine shafts that we just end up scraping because the cost savings of turning one down and then using it is not worth the potential failure of a turbo. We require a new turbine shaft to be used every time we come across a turbo with a worn turbine shaft. Now if a turbine shaft is checked and it is not worn at all of course we still use it, we only require new ones when their old turbine shaft is worn. Turning the turbine shaft down would not only be a difficult process given the hardening that they go through, but also a completely pointless one when all you would be doing is weaking the shaft. New turbine shafts are not that expensive relatively speaking.

As for stress due to a bigger wheel/turbine shaft. That is countered by balancing the complete assembly together just as MHI or Melett or any other manufacture does when they make a CHRA. We are a Garrett Distributor and they've sent us to a few workshops where we've learned all kind of interesting things about turbos and for instance the effects of not balancing them vs. balancing a turbo etc. All turbo components (from reputable manufactures) are balanced as an individual part. However when you add those parts together it can create imbalance even though individually those components are perfectly balanced. Many shops do not balance the compressor wheel and turbine shaft together assuming that being the parts are balanced individually they will be fine. However seeing hundreds of turbos balanced I can tell you perfectly balanced individual components when added together do create a certain amount of imbalance so you really need to balance the entire assembly together to have a perfectly balanced turbo again. Does this cost us extra to balance the assembly together? Yes, but in the long run it saves us money because we dont have turbo's failing all the time do to them being worn out from being out of balance. That is why we include balancing with every turbo we do.

[92RT-TT]

Also one other thought I know I'm rambling on haha, I'm sure a lot of shops dont do any additional balancing of turbos because as you may have guessed, balancing machines are extremely expensive. The machine we use was over 40k. Not cheap by any means but it does help ensure our turbos are perfectly balanced and will have a long life.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Makes me happy I got my turbos serviced by you guys!! :)

Just waiting on that trans now...

[BaadVR4]

I had 19Ts on my car. I swapped them for 16Gs, then had the car re-tuned. Everything except the turbos/headers/O2 housings was identical, even the dyno and the tuner. I posted the comparison dyno numbers to show how the 19Ts compared to 16Gs in a true "apples to apples" scenario. I then commented that, in addition to making a bunch more power, the 16Gs (in my opinion) were likely to be longer lived and cheaper to rebuild/replace. Now we've been talking about the longevity and reliability of 19Ts versus 16Gs and why or why not one may be better than the other.


Ive been reading this, good info, but Im not sure why you guys are talking about 16G's when the thread is 19T varients and HP numbers...Something to consider.

[Sin'sVr4]

Dan I am very happey that i decided to go with you guys too. :) Car is amazing btw and pulls...........................(still pulling) ...................and is just amazing. Thanks for all the hard work.

If I could do it again, I wouldnt go with hybrid turbos. I understand what BADvr4 is saying. TD05 is just to laggy for me. I rode in a TD05 car and compared to my car it just took to long to spool. Ok, TD05 car will out power mine in a long distance highway pull. But at teh track, i like my quick spool and the HP that my 19t's give me is very satisfying.

Again, Huge props to MTC. Good info Jfast and Dan! Thats why I love ths site, no flamers! haha

Mike

(btw J car shifts perfect :) )

[92RT-TT]

Glad you are enjoying the turbos. 551whp and 641 torque has got to make for a pretty fun ride! Again so glad you are enjoying them and thanks for the kind words! You've got an amazing car!

Dan


Dan I am very happey that i decided to go with you guys too. :) Car is amazing btw and pulls...........................(still pulling) ...................and is just amazing. Thanks for all the hard work.

If I could do it again, I wouldnt go with hybrid turbos. I understand what BADvr4 is saying. TD05 is just to laggy for me. I rode in a TD05 car and compared to my car it just took to long to spool. Ok, TD05 car will out power mine in a long distance highway pull. But at teh track, i like my quick spool and the HP that my 19t's give me is very satisfying.

Again, Huge props to MTC. Good info Jfast and Dan! Thats why I love ths site, no flamers! haha

Mike

(btw J car shifts perfect :) )

[markoverclock]

J.Fast you couldn't be more wrong/right on some stuff, lol.

Just as Midwest said they are really precise part that's need to be withing their .000x , not .00x , lol tolerance. Now i seen about every mhi apart and never had one out of spec. Ever!!! Brian who i know of dont know very much about turbo building. Mhi standards are the best ive seen vs mellett or any other company their casting and finishes are the best. Now i do use melett and never had a bad one of theirs and other companies turbines, but if mhi was available i would use those. So if Brian showed you them he didn't show you the right ones.

as for machining No every turbo does not require machining, just as Midwest stated only if their is a problem with it, and machining a turbine for oversize bearings is a really bad idea. its never straight with the stub anymore that is why I also don't use them.

As for rebuilds not as good as oem that is bull, If the reman is done correctly. Problem is like Midwest stated is not very many shops do it the right way unfortunately.

most oem assemble the parts each one individual balance then assemble the "chra not chira" lol. they then Put them on a vsr balance machine that even very few rebuild shops have. ( this a balancer that is oil fed to the turbo and uses air to spin it like it would be in a car.)
oem doenst balance the stack parts on a balancer then assemble them like the common practice in rebuild shops. That is the only difference in the balance of oem vs rebuilds. But that is why rebuild shops balance the stack up parts because the vsr machine cost 125,000 plus the housing to match each turbo setup. so you end up with an ever so growing balancer.

It would require to much time for the oem to balance without the vsr.

[J. Fast]

J.Fast you couldn't be more wrong/right on some stuff, lol.

Just as Midwest said they are really precise part that's need to be withing their .000x , not .00x , lol tolerance. Now i seen about every mhi apart and never had one out of spec. Ever!!! Brian who i know of dont know very much about turbo building. Mhi standards are the best ive seen vs mellett or any other company their casting and finishes are the best. Now i do use melett and never had a bad one of theirs and other companies turbines, but if mhi was available i would use those. So if Brian showed you them he didn't show you the right ones.

as for machining No every turbo does not require machining, just as Midwest stated only if their is a problem with it, and machining a turbine for oversize bearings is a really bad idea. its never straight with the stub anymore that is why I also don't use them.

As for rebuilds not as good as oem that is bull, If the reman is done correctly. Problem is like Midwest stated is not very many shops do it the right way unfortunately.

most oem assemble the parts each one individual balance then assemble the "chra not chira" lol. they then Put them on a vsr balance machine that even very few rebuild shops have. ( this a balancer that is oil fed to the turbo and uses air to spin it like it would be in a car.)
oem doenst balance the stack parts on a balancer then assemble them like the common practice in rebuild shops. That is the only difference in the balance of oem vs rebuilds. But that is why rebuild shops balance the stack up parts because the vsr machine cost 125,000 plus the housing to match each turbo setup. so you end up with an ever so growing balancer.

It would require to much time for the oem to balance without the vsr.

Just as Midwest acknowledged, you also rebuild turbos with parts sourced from several different mfr's. You take the turbines from one, a compressor wheel from another, bearings from another, do some honing or polishing, and put them together and re-balance them right? The stackup is one concern yes, but you balance that out with your machine so they should be good to go. I'm not really concerned with that, the biggest concern is the harmonics of those parts when stacked up. Can your machines plot harmonics of different weighted turbo components, different journals, different shaft weights, different bearing weights, different compressor weights than the turbos original design? Can you say for certain the harmonics on the turbo as a result of the parts you're replacing are the same as the original turbo or a purpose built turbo manufactured by one company and vsr balanced as a full assembly? Hence my arguement on ditching the chra and replacing with a new one, one harmonically balanced by the MFR using their precision equipment. If you need to sleep at night I suppose you could rebalance it even though it will be shipped with a VSR sheet, but at that point it's just setting a clip and a strap right so why rebuild it?

I don't want you to think this is some sort of blanket statement or anything, I'm just specifically referring to TD-04/05 frame turbos, not "all" turbos in general. Would it be safe to assume the same might sometimes apply with other MFR's turbos also?

One thing I don't quite get is how you could say not every turbo needs to be milled? You mean you aren't milling them but you are polishing or honing them to clean up the journal to accept a new bearing right? How could you set a bearing without honing or polishing first and expect precision? To me that sounds about as reliable as putting new bearings on a 200,000 mile engine without having the crank polished or cleaned up. Is that safe? it just doesn't seem like it would be with a 200,000 rpm spinning turbine shaft. If you say it's safe then I will not argue with you or MWT because I don't own any precision turbo rebuilding equipment to argue a position on that and I trust your expertise on the subject matter.

Here's a question for both you and Midwest, if you had a choice of rebuilding utilizing different mfr components, or replacing with an all in one vsr built and balanced chra assembly from Japan or the UK which one would you go with?

[GTOJOE]

Great discussion. This is why I started this thread. Glad we have some vendors and guys with experience posting in here. Thank you :D

[markoverclock]

I would if i had every possible way of doing it. I would use all new parts, (MHI) balance as an assembly. assemble then vsr it just for shits and grins for quality control. ( they manufacturing places don't even do this NO-One does)

Honing out bearing housings is only needed if the surface is out of tolerance or has damage to it. Same for ring landings.

Same goes for the turbine. But i do not cut/turn any turbines. you loose your true center and the balance job will suffer leading to a shortened life of the turbo. I clean, polish journal check for straightness and out of around. If their are no defects or anything wrong with it, then its no worse than brand new. You can always tell how well a owner takes care of their car when you have their turbo apart, Same goes to the bottom end of your engine.

The harmonics your talking about is what the balancing takes care of. Your eliminating it.

As for different vendors using diff wheels. You can do custom setup sheets for the balancing. That is the way i do it. I have a setup sheet for every type of turbo i do. Like tdo4L-13g has a diff setup then td04-13g etc.

They do give you setup sheets for general use on balancing (depending on what machine you use) . But i don't use those as they are just vague. for example they have Tdo4 comp wheel, tdo4 turbine, tdo4 assy. Tdo5 comp, tdo5 turbine, etc.

but they dont give it you like this:
Tdo4-9b assy, or td04l-13g assy, tdo4-13g assy.

They give you the formulas for making custom setup sheets (assuming you have a good enough scale). So i started making my own book on balancing them with the parts i use. So when i come across a new one i make and add it to my book. Takes extra time but that's the quality i put into it. Most shops do not do this at all. In fact the guy i replaced (worked building turbos for 20yrs) who opened up his own shop still doesn't do this. LOL. Needless to say he had more warranties then i will ever dream of having. I found alot of things he did wrong and still does it that way. lol. Ive only had 2. They were my fault and took care of them as it was things i shouldn't have missed but did. (human i guess):rolleyes:

[J. Fast]

So why the big gaping hole with being consistant with the 19T's? A lot of people are having problems getting a quality set for one, and getting any longevity out of them for two. Milt here mentioned he went thru atleast 3 sets, Sin here went thru 5 sets, Jason went thru a set, and if I remember correctly earlier this year I believe kylightning guy had a set blow up too.. All of them together add up to the miles I have on my set and I've never had one issue, they still boost like they did the day I bolted them on an cranked the boost up. Are the problems with reliability based on a lack of precision, lack luster parts, a problem with the balance, bad oil, possibly builder inexperience and not having a sheet? Does it have anything to do with Milts point on added stress on the turbo? It seems like the only thing consistant is that these turbo's are inconsistant. Hearing and reading about about all the problems regarding these turbos and longevity issues makes me happy I haven't had any problems. It also makes me wonder if they are difficult to build and get right tho. Why the high premature falure rate on a large portion of the 19t's?

[IPD]

Dan I am very happey that i decided to go with you guys too. :) Car is amazing btw and pulls...........................(still pulling) ...................and is just amazing. Thanks for all the hard work.

If I could do it again, I wouldnt go with hybrid turbos. I understand what BADvr4 is saying. TD05 is just to laggy for me. I rode in a TD05 car and compared to my car it just took to long to spool. Ok, TD05 car will out power mine in a long distance highway pull. But at teh track, i like my quick spool and the HP that my 19t's give me is very satisfying.

Again, Huge props to MTC. Good info Jfast and Dan! Thats why I love ths site, no flamers! haha

Mike

(btw J car shifts perfect :) )

fixing lag is easy. it's called a stroker. :)

[BaadVR4]

All of those factors are part of the equation. I had one set that NEVER boosted past 15 psi. That set of turbos was rebuilt by the original vendor twice. When I got them new, they produced zero boost after 50 miles of break-in (as recommended by the builder). I sent them back for rebuild. When I got them back, zero boost after break in. In order to determine if there was some external problem causing the turbos to fail, I put the 19T turbos from my car on the car with no boost. Instant boost to 23 psi. I concluded the problem was with the failed turbos. When I got them after the second rebuild, I did the break-in procedure. The turbos boosted to 15 psi once, then boosted to 10psi, then zero again. Each failure was "catastrophic" in the sense that both turbos had completely destroyed all the parts except the housings and compressor wheels. The vendor insisted the cause of failures was some problem with the car and the turbos were fine. A very knowledgeable turbo guy on the other site looked at them. He noted a "weird" balance job on one of the turbos. The vendor claimed to have used the finest balancer available. At that point, I had spent enough money replacing wear parts/HL turbine wheels/compressor wheels/exhaust housings to have bought a DR 1300 kit and all I had to show for my money was two junk turbos. I don't consider that set of turbos to be representative of 19T upgrades. I had a set of 19Ts from the same vendor that were on my car for 8-10K miles. They were still boosting well when I replaced them with 16Gs. I guess upgraded TD04 turbos is like the Chinese 16G knock offs; some are actually pretty good, some are average and some are junk and it can be hard to tell the difference. I know there are reputable, quality vendors who make good products. I know the hybrid TD04s produce great results. I just think that over the lifetime of the car, total cost of using 16Gs will be less than using hybrid TD04 turbos. And the 16Gs will produce more power and torque. The 16Gs have more lag. But my experience with the 16Gs on the street is that a slight adjustment in driving style makes the increased lag inconsequential. Of course you could eliminate the lag issue by building a 3.5 stroker.

This is why there are different makes/models of cars. Different people like different combinations. Most of the time we gravitate to what has worked for us in the past.


So why the big gaping hole with being consistant with the 19T's? A lot of people are having problems getting a quality set for one, and getting any longevity out of them for two. Milt here mentioned he went thru atleast 3 sets, Sin here went thru 5 sets, Jason went thru a set, and if I remember correctly earlier this year I believe kylightning guy had a set blow up too.. All of them together add up to the miles I have on my set and I've never had one issue, they still boost like they did the day I bolted them on an cranked the boost up. Are the problems with reliability based on a lack of precision, lack luster parts, a problem with the balance, bad oil, possibly builder inexperience and not having a sheet? Does it have anything to do with Milts point on added stress on the turbo? It seems like the only thing consistant is that these turbo's are inconsistant. Hearing and reading about about all the problems regarding these turbos and longevity issues makes me happy I haven't had any problems. It also makes me wonder if they are difficult to build and get right tho. Why the high premature falure rate on a large portion of the 19t's?

[Sin'sVr4]

I just think that over the lifetime of the car, total cost of using 16Gs will be less than using hybrid TD04 turbos. And the 16Gs will produce more power and torque.

I totally agree with this statement as I have gone thru a few rebuilds myself on my 19T's. Maybe if something goes wrong in the future I will 1. sell my car ...lol 2. upgrade to the dr750's....3. upgrade to tdo5 setup or 4. push my car off a cliff

[mb7050]

This is a five star thread. Where are all the stars ?

[BaadVR4]

5. Find a buddy with a gas can and a match.......lol


I totally agree with this statement as I have gone thru a few rebuilds myself on my 19T's. Maybe if something goes wrong in the future I will 1. sell my car ...lol 2. upgrade to the dr750's....3. upgrade to tdo5 setup or 4. push my car off a cliff

[92RT-TT]

I think the biggest re-occuring factor that we see for reasons why 19T's or any upgraded turbo fails is that the people doing the upgrades cut corners, aren't precisce, use cheap china made components, or dont balance them as a complete assembly. At Midwest Turbo we do upgrades for all kind of cars from Evo's, SRT-4's., S4's, WRX's, race boats, etc and we have had excellent longevity. It all depends on teh builder and the parts used. I think that having a 1 year warranty on a performance turbo speaks to how confident we are in our turbos and their longevity.

We've seen so many turbos with cheap chinese components.... People seem to think that buying a turbo off ebay for 200 dollars or a rebuild kit for 20 dollars from some other site is going to save them money... but in the end they spend more having to get them fixed or replaceing them when the cheap ones fail. On one turbo we had sent into us, it had cheap parts in it and it had a snapped turbine shaft and he barely had any miles on the turbos. Just goes to show cheap parts arent going to save you money in the long run. We've seen compressor wheels where they are actually starting to bend where the base meets up with the fins of the compressor wheel. I will have to take some pictures to show you what I'm talking about.

[Sin'sVr4]

Yes please :). Dan, i have been there done that ;) I totally agree. only use good shit. Yes, more expensive at first, but better quality. there is a saying in the car business "cheapers not always better". I tell all my customers that when they try to negotiate with me. ;)

[markoverclock]

All of those factors are part of the equation. I had one set that NEVER boosted past 15 psi. That set of turbos was rebuilt by the original vendor twice. When I got them new, they produced zero boost after 50 miles of break-in (as recommended by the builder). I sent them back for rebuild. When I got them back, zero boost after break in. In order to determine if there was some external problem causing the turbos to fail, I put the 19T turbos from my car on the car with no boost. Instant boost to 23 psi. I concluded the problem was with the failed turbos. When I got them after the second rebuild, I did the break-in procedure. The turbos boosted to 15 psi once, then boosted to 10psi, then zero again. Each failure was "catastrophic" in the sense that both turbos had completely destroyed all the parts except the housings and compressor wheels. The vendor insisted the cause of failures was some problem with the car and the turbos were fine. A very knowledgeable turbo guy on the other site looked at them. He noted a "weird" balance job on one of the turbos. The vendor claimed to have used the finest balancer available. At that point, I had spent enough money replacing wear parts/HL turbine wheels/compressor wheels/exhaust housings to have bought a DR 1300 kit and all I had to show for my money was two junk turbos. I don't consider that set of turbos to be representative of 19T upgrades. I had a set of 19Ts from the same vendor that were on my car for 8-10K miles. They were still boosting well when I replaced them with 16Gs. I guess upgraded TD04 turbos is like the Chinese 16G knock offs; some are actually pretty good, some are average and some are junk and it can be hard to tell the difference. I know there are reputable, quality vendors who make good products. I know the hybrid TD04s produce great results. I just think that over the lifetime of the car, total cost of using 16Gs will be less than using hybrid TD04 turbos. And the 16Gs will produce more power and torque. The 16Gs have more lag. But my experience with the 16Gs on the street is that a slight adjustment in driving style makes the increased lag inconsequential. Of course you could eliminate the lag issue by building a 3.5 stroker.

This is why there are different makes/models of cars. Different people like different combinations. Most of the time we gravitate to what has worked for us in the past.

i believe that's the deff of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and over expecting a different outcome. You had a failure with your turbos, sent them back. and kept doing it over and over. Why did he say they failed? Remember that many people claim to know how to rebuild turbos but rarely do they actually know the specifics of that turbo or they "think its ok" when their practice is not the correct way of doing it. i can tell if someone sent me a rebuilt turbo if it was done correctly or not when i take it apart. I also explain to the customer what happened why it failed and what to do to prevent it from happening again.

If your turbine is grooved up something went threw it, since its oil fed you need to check your oil and cut open the filter. Many people also don't install or even try to make sure lines are clean and free of Debris. Along with a whole lot of other problems.
So that is why you see so many failures, How many failures do you see with a reputable shop installing them?? Its always the back yard guy or the regular mechanic who really doesn't know anything about turbochargers.

To many variables to list. Almost all rebuilders offer a one yr against manufacturing defects or quality of craftsmanship. You really just need to use the reputable shop and turbo rebuilder that can explain everything to you in details.

[Jesters Deadd]

Its amazing the differerence the different material have on the out put of all these turbos. Billet vs cast, HL vs TiAl.
Does any one make a cnc'd magnesium compressor wheel?

[IPD]

beryllium compressor wheel. titanium exhaust wheel. each turbo costs as much as your whole car. :D

[glushenij]

So I need help! I got build motor .40 over block with 3sx rods and pistons+stage 3 heads with 272 cams +adj cam gears+ meth injection! I want weekender street -strip car with 550+ whp so which one be better td04 19t hl(maybe billet ones)or 3sx td05 kit and later replace with billet turbos from Midwest turbo? Any suggestion???????

[GTOJOE]

If you want around 550whp+ and nothing more then I would go for billet 19T, DR700 or DR750. The DR7xx series turbos have been know to get just over 600awhp with either meth or e85. If you eventually want more than that or want those sort of numbers on pump with no meth then you will need to look at TD05 setups. Personally I would look at other setups not the 3sx one. There have many MANY reports of the manifolds cracking. The other option is to wait for Midwest to finish their TD04 billet stuff and see if they are able to achieve higher numbers than the DR7xx.

[glushenij]

So with ones td05 is better? And about hp-it's always not enough :) thanks

[GTOJOE]

If your going TD05 you may as well do it right the first time. If it's done right then you could achieve the numbers you want on reletively low boost. The 3sx kit uses either OEM mitsubishi 16G's or knock offs. Avoid any knock off as they don't last as long. THe issue with the 3sx kit is not the turbos but the manifold. I would look around for a good quality TD05 manifold and buy the Midwest Turbo Billet td05 turbos.

Maybe the Greddy manifolds fro Dynamic Racing

Dynamic Racing :: - GReddy TD05 Header Set (http://www.dynamicracing.com/customer/product.php?productid=112&cat=27&page=1)

Or the IPS manifolds

IPS TD05 Manifold Kit, IPS Motorsports (http://www.ipsmotorsports.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3543_3550_986_3127&products_id=1803)

Or if your after a complete bolt on kit turbos and manifolds etc look at both of these shops for their complete kits. Midwest might also have manifolds.

Those are just 2 of many options. The 1st post in this thread contains links to all of the products I posted about. Checkout each vendor and see what is on offer.

[GTOJOE]

BTW has anyone posted DR750 numbers on pump only? we have all seen the 600awhp+ numbers from various people but none yet from just pump. I would love to know how much extra power the meth and e85 is giving them.

[Unknownvr4]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about 19t variants and dyno numbers..

Anyway, my "special" set of 19ts are on their way and I should have some good numbers soon.. Hoping for some dr750 numbers actually ;)

[keo92stealth]

BTW has anyone posted DR750 numbers on pump only? we have all seen the 600awhp+ numbers from various people but none yet from just pump. I would love to know how much extra power the meth and e85 is giving them.

most of them guys arent running e85. they run pump with meth. i think steve at pampena motorsports run e85 with dr700s. but i bet e85 plus meth would be killer. probably knock free. that would be like running straight methonal.

[GTOJOE]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about 19t variants and dyno numbers..

Anyway, my "special" set of 19ts are on their way and I should have some good numbers soon.. Hoping for some dr750 numbers actually ;)

It was origioanlly then it bacame a general discussion so I posted a comment and asked if a mod could change the title to TD04 discussion but nothing happened.



most of them guys arent running e85. they run pump with meth. i think steve at pampena motorsports run e85 with dr700s. but i bet e85 plus meth would be killer. probably knock free. that would be like running straight methonal.

So far I can recall about 3 maybe 4 DR7xx cars that re hitting just over the 600awhp mark. All of them are either E85 or pump with Meth. So pump and meth makes about the same power as E85 so I wonder if E85 and Meth have ever been done.

[keo92stealth]

It was origioanlly then it bacame a general discussion so I posted a comment and asked if a mod could change the title to TD04 discussion but nothing happened.




So far I can recall about 3 maybe 4 DR7xx cars that re hitting just over the 600awhp mark. All of them are either E85 or pump with Meth. So pump and meth makes about the same power as E85 so I wonder if E85 and Meth have ever been done.

i dont know if thats been done as the e85 thing is still kind of out there ya know. i choice to run methonal type fuel to avoid using the meth injection. but as we know, with the e85 we probably wont pick up knock. on reg gas and meth there probably wont be problems. i wanna run just straight meth like that stuff chris is using. e95 or something similar.

[JasonY]

You can get knock on ethanol fuels, you jsut wont know it until you fold a rod over. Ethanol cars need to be tuned on the dyno by someone that really knows what they are doing.

Jason

[keo92stealth]

You can get knock on ethanol fuels, you jsut wont know it until you fold a rod over. Ethanol cars need to be tuned on the dyno by someone that really knows what they are doing.

Jason
yes i kno you can knock with any fuel. i said that it probably wont pick it up on the sensor. maybe u can see knock my looking at the data log and watching timing. i hope all goes well with my setup as my fuel management is the arc2 with e85.

[JasonY]

The stock sensor wont hear "ethanol knock" so the stock ecu wont have a reaction. But sounds like you're onto it, so best of luck, sure can make good power on ethanol fuels!

Jason

[TurboSinceBirth]

I'm surprised nobody piped up and asked why run meth on top of ethanol? It's pointless since you won't detect knock on ethanol before it's too late. Rods will bend, bearings will get flattened, and even pistons will break before the engine gets all noisy where the knock sensor picks anything up. It isn't tuned for the correct frequencies.

[J. Fast]

Im interested in hearing the results from an ARC on E-85. I think that will be the first real world test of a DR ARC on E85. Make sure you pot up the results!

Ohh, and take a chassi clamp and a knock headset with you when you tune keo92. Datalog and timing will not give you any info at all. I just so happen to know someone who runs 27* of timing at 6000rpm while boosting 35psi (on a GT42R on E-85 on a 2.3L motor). Datalog and timing reflect nothing. That's an assload of timing, but it's quiet when clamped!

[keo92stealth]

Im interested in hearing the results from an ARC on E-85. I think that will be the first real world test of a DR ARC on E85. Make sure you pot up the results!

Ohh, and take a chassi clamp and a knock headset with you when you tune keo92. Datalog and timing will not give you any info at all. I just so happen to know someone who runs 27* of timing at 6000rpm while boosting 35psi (on a GT42R on E-85 on a 2.3L motor). Datalog and timing reflect nothing. That's an assload of timing, but it's quiet when clamped!

will do j fast!! hopefully ill be running here soon!

[Sin'sVr4]

so who else has some 19T numbers? Anyone else get some dr650/750 numbers? lots of talk but no show

[keo92stealth]

so who else has some 19T numbers? Anyone else get some dr650/750 numbers? lots of talk but no show

dude i dont think anyone else is gonna make good numbers like you did on 19ts. 641 tq is just nuts for such small turbos like that lol. must be nice lol

[NOMIEZVR4]

Ive got 19T's with ported hotsides and manifolds and heads and a built motor. Im still running wastegate boost at the moment though...waiting for a flash ecu setup so I can go further. Plus I gotta paint the car too...probably by summer ill be running a bit more boost..

[Unlogic]

The market obviously changes a lot in 5 years, because none of the links in the first work anymore. Seems like the market for properly made bolt-on 19T's for our platform must be quite small.

I'm maxing out my Boostmore billet 15G's running Chrome and meth injection so I thought I'd upgrade to a set of 19T but the options seem to be very limited these days. Are there any true bolt-on options on the market apart from the DR750 and DR650 kits?

[bboyalan]

lol super blast from the past thread...

It looks like 3SX added their billet "Enforcers" with HL turbine.

Many people are still using BoostMore 15G/19T billet upgrades with stock turbine, although the consensus still remains that a minimum L or HL should be chosen.

I maxed out Andy's BM Billet TD04-19T's this year, and the stock turbine became a huge wall - still made decent numbers but with dropping curves:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Andy_92_Stealth_TT/FB_IMG_1512517173549_zps50yg4v2x.jpg
~450whp/500wtq VD SAE on 93+Meth

The best, proven bolt-on TD04 turbos are still DR billet 650's and 750's, IMO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Eddie_99VR4/Eddie_BDR650_22psi_Pump-E85_LS6_v1.1_zpsi18ijofs.png
Lightly modded '99 VR-4 with Billet DR650's on Pump-E85

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Alex_97_VR-4/400AWHP_19-20psi_conservative_tune_zpsa0ku7wpz.png
Conservative, initial tuning with Billet DR650's on E85+Meth

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Ben_94VR4/Ben_Second_500_zpsignt15e1.png
My old IPS "level 1" TD04L-19T's on Ben's VR-4 on E85+Meth



-Alan

[NOMIEZVR4]

anything with a stock wheel is a waste.

Alan whats your thoughts on the boostmore 19t with HL wheels?

[bboyalan]

anything with a stock wheel is a waste.

Alan whats your thoughts on the boostmore 19t with HL wheels?
Hey Nomie!

Honestly, I wish I had more data with BM HL's - even suspect that Mark's billet set had stock turbines like Andy after reflecting on the tuning experience.

The only numbers that I have are from their VERY FIRST cast 19T set with HL's back when they were selling under "TurboBob" lol...

Plot info says "LMI" but numbers remained the same, more or less, after being "upgraded" by TurboBob/BoostMore. This is also with a fully gutted MAFS back when that was a thing to do hahaha.
https://scontent-lax3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/10249149_1659881184268165_1891707727_n.jpg

Mark's old plot for reference here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Mark_96VR4/Third_29psi_538AWHP_602AWTQ_zps1ysdo1sa.png
(going big ass build now apparently heh)

[NOMIEZVR4]

dang..what a fail. Looks like its either the trusted ol 15g/17g or DR bolt-on turbos if you're really serious about making 550+.

Thanks!

[Unlogic]

I share the same conclusion. It's time to give Matt Monett a phonecall.

[TurboSinceBirth]

I’ll have to get a VD plot this spring after my tranny and clutch are back in. I’ve been running billet 20T-HL turbos for about 4 years now with no issues but I’m not pushing them on E85. We lost all our stations so I never got around to 20-35 psi. There’s one commercial station I can get an account on and buy some E85 through locally or we have 100 maybe 110 on pump. Too much has been going on with life, job, almost got married, etc but I’ll be back together this spring.

The 11 blade compressor and 9 blade turbine combo I have spooled much quicker than the 22Ts I had before with the 6+6 9 blade HL turbine. I have a feeling they’ll start choking out at high boost and will be swapping to the 6+6 or twin T3 maybe single T4 if I ended up wanting a big jump in power.

[bboyalan]

dang..what a fail. Looks like its either the trusted ol 15g/17g or DR bolt-on turbos if you're really serious about making 550+.

Thanks!
Indeed! I always wanted to try a set of TEC "17G's" but those are too old now lol.

A local friend will hopefully make some good numbers and times with his v1 DR750's on E85+Meth (Pampena bottom, DR heads/cams, billet forks, BH brace, front+center LSD, etc)

I know that Jeff still needs to hit the track with his 700whp? '98 VR-4 with the v1's as well.

At the same time, Dmitri still needs to make a 10-sec pass haha... trapped 132mph twice!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Dmitri_94TT/Dmitri_DR750_Third_29psi_678AWHP_E85_Meth_zpsrmitk hg6.png

-sent from my Galaxy S7 Edge

[anh165]

I spent over a month deciding between Billet 19Ts with larger compressor housing or the DR750s, after alot of calculations, going through dyno charts and build threads/videos - I felt that I would end up spending much more cash on supporting mods, tuning and tweaking to get the numbers I want (600 whp) than it would to stretch for the DR750's. So that's what I ended up with.

[CoopKill]

No matter what turbo you would have chose the money to support the power would be the same. All the supporting mods are needed for the power, not the turbo.

Have you installed them yet?

[CoopKill]

Still sitting on the 11 blade MTC's. Plans to blow them up this spring. LMAO

[anh165]

No matter what turbo you would have chose the money to support the power would be the same. All the supporting mods are needed for the power, not the turbo.

Have you installed them yet?

With strength, fueling and engine management I agree costs are the same.

I don’t think I have seen a 19T produce near 600 whp on a 3.0 motor with stock heads and cams?

Dr750s will be fitted in April.

Anh

[Unlogic]

I spent over a month deciding between Billet 19Ts with larger compressor housing or the DR750s, after alot of calculations, going through dyno charts and build threads/videos - I felt that I would end up spending much more cash on supporting mods, tuning and tweaking to get the numbers I want (600 whp) than it would to stretch for the DR750's. So that's what I ended up with.

I came to the same conclusion and went for DR750 turbos too.

[HKS3000GT]

I'm going to be getting my car tuned soon so ill be able to get results for some billet 19Ts with HL turbines on E85.

Mods are:
custom exhaust and dp
Bob sidemounts with CX pipes
1000cc injectors
Walbro e85 pump
Haltech sport 2000
Pampena billet rods and ross pistons
stock head and cams with supertech springs and retainers and BC cam gears
timp3kgt billet 19t with HL ex wheels

Just trying to fix a starting issue at the moment so once that's sorted its off to the tuner to install the haltech flex fuel sensor and get it tuned.

It's going to be on a Dyno Dynamics and it generally reads fairly low compared to the dyno jets.

[Hans@GZP]

We just did a build with some billet 19T turbos with HL wheels. These numbers are only at 16 psi on pump gas. LOTS more room to go if the customer ends up wanting it.

Mods are:
Wiseco pistons
Brian Crower Rods
Brian Crower Stage 2 cams
Our ported cylinder head package with oversized valves and stiffer single valve springs
Walbro 400 lph fuel pump
DW 550cc injectors
MAFT with Z06 sensor in draw thru

http://3swarehouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20180301_141153.jpg

[j2k4]

Hans lives! :D

[RealMcCoy]

We just did a build with some billet 19T turbos with HL wheels. These numbers are only at 16 psi on pump gas. LOTS more room to go if the customer ends up wanting it.

Mods are:
Wiseco pistons
Brian Crower Rods
Brian Crower Stage 2 cams
Our ported cylinder head package with oversized valves and stiffer single valve springs
Walbro 400 lph fuel pump
DW 550cc injectors
MAFT with Z06 sensor in draw thru

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qVNtxgmK_k9KUKPufRJFchAuRsKzCVLlnCdci78sK3aj3pCGcI SZKNSFxV9C9QFlA9YLv4DnP9f3ZN8Wzct878iq3foWD_TSaFdv Xs5niRBef8WDXxf_-YvuG48BbmSaoCN6VqTx-LnIHRAawUQHVsdZBzNp_EcGksuYtp8G-orVZsPFBnc0NSWyFxepwoW-cfSltKHLnb3FPbXEjDruw6jGPm90JFlRK5orzkXR36xGzHPEWH UU_PHRrfDEMx7Ys2kMARHHigS4KMz6-w71v4ibjzF_SamXIsjAbH0hXDf_wdbtmMXgVxYnUdy9VhjAhIg OyacP-8KdHT5F_s_0biLKAMEdiKzmyf4EF67g4S_FvSxIqpdLhWTGUjs FJ48YzRmvxJ6UlXgSWL5usxV5wZqPqloawL9NbpwNftAHVFaNO FLqqm11d0vvOBL1nHAlJneN_MV3Z0D8-y0_YG8kE9QjYW7e_ee811RDhSrIr5StbXdddyE9Gms50HvfOQ0 PYGx2gwMu-6q_d4075STrYBlFEXbZWpECvIggm2rQI_0RMxRqkM7zTQO8Wkn tJhJCfAWCA-RQJNL5FaWUP_UujJZmkWHjbfp7kIRHd5NF=w1677-h943-no

Are you waiting for someone to hand you the envelope..?

And the numbers are....

:lol:

[HKS3000GT]

We just did a build with some billet 19T turbos with HL wheels. These numbers are only at 16 psi on pump gas. LOTS more room to go if the customer ends up wanting it.

Mods are:
Wiseco pistons
Brian Crower Rods
Brian Crower Stage 2 cams
Our ported cylinder head package with oversized valves and stiffer single valve springs
Walbro 400 lph fuel pump
DW 550cc injectors
MAFT with Z06 sensor in draw thru

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qVNtxgmK_k9KUKPufRJFchAuRsKzCVLlnCdci78sK3aj3pCGcI SZKNSFxV9C9QFlA9YLv4DnP9f3ZN8Wzct878iq3foWD_TSaFdv Xs5niRBef8WDXxf_-YvuG48BbmSaoCN6VqTx-LnIHRAawUQHVsdZBzNp_EcGksuYtp8G-orVZsPFBnc0NSWyFxepwoW-cfSltKHLnb3FPbXEjDruw6jGPm90JFlRK5orzkXR36xGzHPEWH UU_PHRrfDEMx7Ys2kMARHHigS4KMz6-w71v4ibjzF_SamXIsjAbH0hXDf_wdbtmMXgVxYnUdy9VhjAhIg OyacP-8KdHT5F_s_0biLKAMEdiKzmyf4EF67g4S_FvSxIqpdLhWTGUjs FJ48YzRmvxJ6UlXgSWL5usxV5wZqPqloawL9NbpwNftAHVFaNO FLqqm11d0vvOBL1nHAlJneN_MV3Z0D8-y0_YG8kE9QjYW7e_ee811RDhSrIr5StbXdddyE9Gms50HvfOQ0 PYGx2gwMu-6q_d4075STrYBlFEXbZWpECvIggm2rQI_0RMxRqkM7zTQO8Wkn tJhJCfAWCA-RQJNL5FaWUP_UujJZmkWHjbfp7kIRHd5NF=w1677-h943-no


What were the numbers Hans, cant see your image.

Anyway quick update for me, figured out why it was having starting issues. Bad ground to the starter/engine when i connect neg jumper cable from battery neg to the ground on the gearbox that goes to the starter it kicks over fine. So wont be long to head off to the tuners.

[Hans@GZP]

Are you waiting for someone to hand you the envelope..?

And the numbers are....

:lol:

Ah, image comes up big for me if you click the top bar on it. Car made 494 awhp and 433 ft-lbs of torque at 16 psi.

[Alan92RTTT]

Hans, check the privacy setting on that image. Its just a grey box.

[Hans@GZP]

Hans, check the privacy setting on that image. Its just a grey box.

Thanks Alan. I edited the original post. Hopefully it shows now.

[RealMcCoy]

Thanks Alan. I edited the original post. Hopefully it shows now.

Nope... I grabbed the image link from a quote box, and it asked me to sign in. Still a privacy issue.

[Hans@GZP]

Nope... I grabbed the image link from a quote box, and it asked me to sign in. Still a privacy issue.

Ok. Uploaded the stupid thing to my website. Hopefully that works now. Stupid google!

[RealMcCoy]

Ok. Uploaded the stupid thing to my website. Hopefully that works now. Stupid google!

Yep, works now.