View Full Version : E85 in an N/A
TUFFTR
06-10-2011, 12:18 AM
I have a joint 15 minutes away that sell's it. pretty cheap actually.
Anyway I have not seen a discussion thread on this matter for this engine.
I am running a high flow fuel pump + ECU w/dual maps a/flex fuel + AFPR.
What else is needed to be safe to run on E85? Expected power and torque gains? pro's? Con's?
I have a 74' which is 10:1 compression. It's been intriguing me for a while. Most of us run high flow fuel pump's and some sort of basic fuel tuning anyway. Why not use the best fuel to get best power and torque?
I'm not fussed about the extra usage one bit. The extra usage is offset by it's lower initial price, working out to around the same price anyway
98 octane PULP $1.55 P/L
E85 $1.25P/L
Flex fuel sensors?
I just want a thread which has some good info on this for N/A's......I know little about tuning.........the basics really..........and I love to learn........been reading a few of the E85 threads but injector size etc doesn't help me.
Anyway.....discuss....
green-lantern
06-10-2011, 12:58 AM
No! God no! Unless you just want to have a hard time finding fuel when you get away from the house because there are very few pumps around. E85 +NA = useless.
TUFFTR
06-10-2011, 01:02 AM
No! God no! Unless you just want to have a hard time finding fuel when you get away from the house because there are very few pumps around. E85 +NA = useless.
I literally jump on the freeway for 10-15 mins depending on traffic and I have E85 :P.........
I'm guessing not as common in the USA?
Intropy
06-10-2011, 01:34 AM
It's pretty simple. Pump, injectors, and a fuel system and filter that will hold up.
Keep in mind you don't automatically make more power just by switching to E85. In fact, you might make less. You need to adjust your timing to take advantage of the higher octane. That's the pro.
The cons are more frequent fillups and perhaps availability (or lack thereof). Also, the car may be fussy about cold starts and other situations. Your tuning solution may limit what you can do about it.
imho, unless you're building your car on a 13:1 or 14:1 compression, don't bother. you need to be able to shove more air into the cylinder in order to tap the potential of e85. yes, you can run your car on it with minimal changes; but you're not going to get performance benefits out of it--even with fuel control (which is necessary, btw).
i would LOVE to see someone post n/a e85 only numbers for a 6g72. i've heard of c16 being ran in 14:1 motors...so i'm sure with a little timing finesse & adequate fuel system--it's doable.
I'm sure e85 will start to become more popular here Paul, cars like the new commodores etc are designed to run on it.
Is it a caltex that sells it near you?
TUFFTR
06-10-2011, 03:21 AM
I'm sure e85 will start to become more popular here Paul, cars like the new commodores etc are designed to run on it.
Is it a caltex that sells it near you?
Wouldnt touch Caltex with a 10ft pole! Nah there is a United in werribee not far away, easy to get too, and cheap, but the pros and cons for N/A has got me thinking - has anyone done it before on a 6G7X N/A and the benefits and downsides..
It'll have 272's in a matter of weeks now. so should be enough air coming in.
Wouldnt touch Caltex with a 10ft pole! Nah there is a United in werribee not far away, easy to get too, and cheap, but the pros and cons for N/A has got me thinking - has anyone done it before on a 6G7X N/A and the benefits and downsides..
It'll have 272's in a matter of weeks now. so should be enough air coming in.
you're still limited by compression; cams or not. and it's a pretty well established fact that cams don't do much of anything for even moderately BPU'd cars. chris had some pretty convincing experience from trying street-grinds on his car. unless you've got ported heads, you're not going to see much gain. and that was on a vr4. i believe the gain on an n/a will be even more abysmal.
there's only two ways to get more volume of combustables into (and thereby more power out of) a fixed-size cylinder. either pressurize it, or increase the compression. forced induction or increased compression ratio.
GTOJOE
06-10-2011, 05:54 AM
May not be helpful.... but something to consider. Flexfuel sensors.
Customer Support Forum • View topic - Dual Maps (http://www.vi-pec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=485&hilit=e85)
To run E85, you would at least need an upgraded fuel pump, stainless steel fuel filter, bigger injectors, and some way to tune the car. The only advantage to running it would be you could run more advanced timing, which would require timing control. The way the ethanol content sensors work in the GM vehicles is they tell the ECU how much ethanol is in the fuel to tell the ECU how much fuel to inject - more fuel per higher percentage of ethanol. If you really wanted to take advantage of E85, you would either need to put forced induction in or get higher compression pistons. I will most likely convert my TT to E85, but that is because it will allow me to run much higher boost and advanced timing with no knock.
TUFFTR
06-10-2011, 09:06 AM
Dammit....realised the flex fuel option in my ECU is for the newer version of my ECU....same software for 2 diff ECU's.
bugger.
however, awesome information.
imperfectdarkness - if i could in theory gain 10HP from doing is, why not though? I mean, we mod our cars for every bit of H/P....and i see this as an option.
Do you still think the added benefit of increasing the timing will do sweet FA?
It's all good info here, and this is why I've asked. I know of the benefits in turbocharged cars. I've seen increases of 50HP in relatively standard cars. but weather or not its worth it for N/A's? Hmm....
vr3.9
06-10-2011, 09:29 AM
While the benefits on an NA would be far less than a FI car, the benefits would still be there. In my opinion not enough to offset the negatives though. You would get more benefit from higher compression and more timing, but I think you would still see gains just from the extra fuel itself. The math says 7-10%. Oh, and very clean oil.
green-lantern
06-10-2011, 12:35 PM
Around here I guess it's a bit harder to find but even pumps being on every corner I really don't see the results really being worth it.
Now slap on a turbo and I'll line up behind you in support for this swap. :D
GTwizard
06-10-2011, 07:03 PM
Wait till you blow the motor. Than build a 14 to 1 and run e85. Erics of 3SX runs e85 in his. That's because once the motor was built, he found he was 13.5 to 1 comp.
I can tell you his car is quick. Just as quick as mine if not quicker. And he has a full boat. Big stereo, full interier and well more than full weight. Buit like me, you at 10 to 1, you would get nothing out of it but higher fuel cost.
Wait till you blow the motor. Than build a 14 to 1 and run e85. Erics of 3SX runs e85 in his. That's because once the motor was built, he found he was 13.5 to 1 comp.
I can tell you his car is quick. Just as quick as mine if not quicker. And he has a full boat. Big stereo, full interier and well more than full weight. Buit like me, you at 10 to 1, you would get nothing out of it but higher fuel cost.
How is that possible that his is just as quick or quicker. your car made more power and weighs a lot less plus he has heavy chrome rims and from your dyno vid it looks like you got lightweight 5zigen fn01rc rims.
Wait till you blow the motor. Than build a 14 to 1 and run e85. Erics of 3SX runs e85 in his. That's because once the motor was built, he found he was 13.5 to 1 comp.
I can tell you his car is quick. Just as quick as mine if not quicker. And he has a full boat. Big stereo, full interier and well more than full weight. Buit like me, you at 10 to 1, you would get nothing out of it but higher fuel cost.
this^
but....with some tuning finesse & a high enough compression ratio, you could easily blow n/a 1/4 mile records out of the water. iirc, the world record for n/a 3/s is mid-high 14's--no nitrous. you can probably hit mid-low 13's or better with a good compression. hell, 15:1 might even be possible--i haven't researched it that much. there's a lot of BS around about 10:1 needing race-gas, which is a load of hooey. if i had $$$ to burn, i'd consider taking on this project myself. i've had it up to here with damn nincompoops telling me that ethanol isn't a good fuel. well yeah, if your only experience with e85 is in a goddamn flex-fuel vehicle, then yes, ethanol sucks.
how many super-high compression n/a motors are running e85--and not just 3/s's? my contention has been (and still is), that for an equivalent power-output level--e85 is no less fuel efficient than gasoline; provided the engine is set-up to take full advantage of ethanol as a fuel.
How is that possible that his is just as quick or quicker. your car made more power and weighs a lot less plus he has heavy chrome rims and from your dyno vid it looks like you got lightweight 5zigen fn01rc rims.
are you 100% certain that gtwizard was making more power?
i would NOT be surprised to see a finely-tuned e85 n/a giving average fwd-tt's a run for the money.
are you 100% certain that gtwizard was making more power?
i would NOT be surprised to see a finely-tuned e85 n/a giving average fwd-tt's a run for the money.
GTWizard made 229-230 the e85 n/a made 226.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0JsdftRv0k
you have dyno sheets for eric's ride? i'd like to see them. unless there's a significant difference in gearing (or gtwizard SUCKS as a driver) there should be no way that cars making roughly identical HP #'s should end up with the heavier car posting a lower et.
p.s.
fwiw, my car dyno'd 235 fwhp after the tt-swap (8-psi limit, 8:1 compression, n/a ecu, stock intake).
dyno charts here
Eric SUTHNR Bowden - 1993 Stealth RT *-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/cars-3sx/cars-eric.asp)
stealthee
06-10-2011, 11:36 PM
Dyno numbers are just that, numbers. 700 rwhp Supras run 12's. A dyno is a tuning tool. If GTWizard says Eric's car is quicker, then there's a good chance it probably is.
Alex3000gt
06-11-2011, 12:39 AM
you have dyno sheets for eric's ride? i'd like to see them. unless there's a significant difference in gearing (or gtwizard SUCKS as a driver) there should be no way that cars making roughly identical HP #'s should end up with the heavier car posting a lower et.
p.s.
fwiw, my car dyno'd 235 fwhp after the tt-swap (8-psi limit, 8:1 compression, n/a ecu, stock intake).
It is the area under the curve that matters, not the peak value.
green-lantern
06-11-2011, 01:24 AM
Seriously Tuffer, how hard would it be to turbo charge that thing? I like the car a lot. Why not make it a bit of a sleeper?
Isn't your N/A a 3.5? I think it would be sick if you upped your compression to 14:1 and converted to E85 on a 3.5. You would most likely make more power than any other N/A 3S. Honestly, other than filling up your car more often, there isn't really a downside to going with E85, so I think you should go for it.
TUFFTR
06-11-2011, 08:47 AM
hahah....Not turbocharging it....I dont have the money firstly, and secondly I want to get my head around how naturally aspirated engines work before i get ahead of myself.
in my case, I'm leaving compression as is. I simply do not have $1300+ for forged custom pistons and the rest. in about a month It'll have 272's, the fatty intake, the 70mm TB, and extractors. so 'mod' wise it's right up there with what i've seen done to N/A's.........AND for anyone asking, if I were to run this, it would be to take advantage of the upped timing.........so yeah........not just going to use it for no gain!
My other question is, with the 240cc injectors in the 3.5L DOHC, will they be close to maxxed out with E85? Does anyone know this for sure?
Dont worry green lantern....it's enough of a sleeper for me....these car's, well the majority of them came with an inline 4 cylinder, SOHC 8v 2.6L "Astron 2" engine, making about 110kw. it was either this, or the SOHC 12v 6g72 (121kw on 91ULP, 124kw on 98 PULP) so people are pretty surprised.....evvvvvveryone think it's a 4cyl...
I've taken on a few standard LS1's and come out on top....granted they were auto's...but still........nothing like taking an LS owner down a peg :D
GTOJOE
06-11-2011, 09:38 AM
You wanna buy my TT injectors? [after I buy some ID 725's :p]
TUFFTR
06-11-2011, 09:51 AM
You wanna buy my TT injectors? [after I buy some ID 725's :p]
$$? + I'd need to find a resistor pack for them aswell.....*sigh*
but yeah if I did upgrade I'd be going stock TT ones FO SHIZNIT.
It's not a DD anymore....I don't mind driving it everyday, in fact I love driving it everyday despite it being harsh and unforgiving i just love it.....but the Diamante is on LPG now so I think that'll be the DD for now....the magna I use for fun....take it out on the weekends or just for a change of scenery take it to school here and there..
So being on E85 won't be much different.
only downside is I cant run dual maps....so it's either one fuel or the other! Dunno....this is why I started such a thread, to hear the points of view from everyone in the community on the issue.....its what I use to make choices like this....so this is all good stuff....
GTOJOE
06-11-2011, 10:11 AM
Don't you have a stand alone computer? You shouldn't need resistors.
TUFFTR
06-11-2011, 10:13 AM
Don't you have a stand alone computer? You shouldn't need resistors.
That I do....
ITS LATE OK STOP HARASSING ME.............:P
Srs though, for a brother like myself, what would you want for injectors? :P
GTOJOE
06-11-2011, 10:18 AM
I'll get back to you on that one.... it could be a while before I get around to doing it LOL.
I don't know if 240s will be enough eric uses 550cc injectors in his e85 n/a.
Eric SUTHNR Bowden - 1993 Stealth RT *-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/cars-3sx/cars-eric.asp)
green-lantern
06-11-2011, 01:20 PM
My other question is, with the 240cc injectors in the 3.5L DOHC, will they be close to maxxed out with E85? Does anyone know this for sure?
You will need about 30% more fuel when going with e85 so yeah you will need larger injectors. What kind of engine management are you using? If you can run low impedance injectors then stock TT 360cc will probably be a good choice.
240 X 1.30 = 312 so yeah the 360cc would be a good choice and cheap to get but I'd get them cleaned and flow tested before using them.
You will need about 30% more fuel when going with e85 so yeah you will need larger injectors. What kind of engine management are you using? If you can run low impedance injectors then stock TT 360cc will probably be a good choice.
240 X 1.30 = 312 so yeah the 360cc would be a good choice and cheap to get but I'd get them cleaned and flow tested before using them.
:smartie:
360's at a minimum, imho.
GTOJOE
06-12-2011, 07:27 AM
FYI there is a set of TT injectors here for only $50 If they are that cheap I would hold onto mine as backup instead of selling them. So maybe buy these \/ \/
http://www.3sgto.org/f62/vcu-front-output-shaft-18-spline-tc-stock-tt-injectors-5251.html
Ninja Performance
06-12-2011, 07:32 AM
dyno charts here
Eric SUTHNR Bowden - 1993 Stealth RT *-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/cars-3sx/cars-eric.asp)
We built his car with high compression pistons, heads that were milled down PAST the DO NOT MILL PAST indicators, Cams etc, 1stG CAS cranked timing up, and still barely made that much more on E85.
I would not recommend it.
-Chris
TUFFTR
06-12-2011, 09:57 AM
Nah as said before, engine internally is staying the same. 10:1. To rebuild this N/A motor, and keeping it N/A would cost me more then a few thousand........and we all know how much little gain we get from such alot of $$ on N/A's.
So from what I've gathered, In my situation at least, I'll need TT injectors (and resistors) and that's about it besides a re-tune.
I will be putting ALOT of thought into this after the cams, extractors, and intake manifold are on, and i can concentrate on the next big adventure with the car.
however in terms of N/A though.....there's like....only SUTHNR's car on E85 and that's it?!
Interesting...
Ninja Performance
06-12-2011, 10:10 AM
Nah as said before, engine internally is staying the same. 10:1. To rebuild this N/A motor, and keeping it N/A would cost me more then a few thousand........and we all know how much little gain we get from such alot of $$ on N/A's.
So from what I've gathered, In my situation at least, I'll need TT injectors (and resistors) and that's about it besides a re-tune.
I will be putting ALOT of thought into this after the cams, extractors, and intake manifold are on, and i can concentrate on the next big adventure with the car.
however in terms of N/A though.....there's like....only SUTHNR's car on E85 and that's it?!
Interesting...
Too much money in parts, time in labor, and hard to find fuel for long trips, lower MPG, for the little reward of going E85 on a 10:1. just not worth it. Why? just to say "I run E85?"
-Chris
We built his car with high compression pistons, heads that were milled down PAST the DO NOT MILL PAST indicators, Cams etc, 1stG CAS cranked timing up, and still barely made that much more on E85.
I would not recommend it.
-Chris
so if his heads weren't milled down, if he had a 15:1 compression, optimized timing, etc--what do you think he could be making at the wheels?
Ninja Performance
06-12-2011, 05:07 PM
so if his heads weren't milled down, if he had a 15:1 compression, optimized timing, etc--what do you think he could be making at the wheels?
Trouble is, his car has over ported race heads which never did good on a turbo car much less an NA car, and he also had cams (264/272 if I remember). No way to compare with a proper build!?
It's possible with proper parts you could make good power with 15:1 and E85.
-Chris
TUFFTR
06-12-2011, 07:31 PM
Too much money in parts, time in labor, and hard to find fuel for long trips, lower MPG, for the little reward of going E85 on a 10:1. just not worth it. Why? just to say "I run E85?"
-Chris
Not really - but considering all I'd need is a re-tune and some 360's from what i can gather, even after the last few little mods are in, I could take advantage of running that sweet sweet extra timing that comes with it. Although i do love my HP, Torque wins races :P
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.