Ripp Supercharger worth it?

[SOHC]

I know people had problems with this back in the day but for this price I'm seriously considering it. I mean its a 100whp gain with the potential for more.

https://www.majesticmodifications.com/mitsubishi-3000gt-sohc-ripp-tuners-package-1992-1993-1994-1995-1996-1997-1998.html

What do you guys think?

[ntcmpjg]

Thomas Knight made the first kit for our cars and has had great success with peoples cars. I would look at a ROOT setup over the shaft driven one or even a centrifugal one

[stealthee]

Knight may have had success with other platforms, but his SC's for the 3s SUCK.

As for the RIPP kit, that $2000 "kit" is just the beginning. Now you need to spend another $800 on the RIPP headers, and then injectors, a tuner, and so on and so forth. Very few people have successfully supercharged a 3s.

You want more power? TT swap it.

[MADMarc]

I got completely shafted by RIPP when I had a 2g Stratus R/T. They refused to refund 700 dollars because a pair of headers I purchased from them had pinholes at the collectors. When I shipped them back they told me it had been more than 30 days and they cannot warrant the refund anymore...EVEN THOUGH I SHIPPED THEM BACK. WTF kind've business is that? Stay true to the platform I guess and turbocharge it OR go with a SC from elsewhere. RIPP sucks the fatties.

[green-lantern]

Knight may have had success with other platforms, but his SC's for the 3s SUCK.

As for the RIPP kit, that $2000 "kit" is just the beginning. Now you need to spend another $800 on the RIPP headers, and then injectors, a tuner, and so on and so forth. Very few people have successfully supercharged a 3s.

You want more power? TT swap it.

This!

You want power? trash the SOHC and buy a TT engine, ECU and wiring harness......or just save for a VR4 and save yourself the headache.

[IPD]

intuition tells me you are SOHC.

tt-swapping is a bit complex for SOHC's. i would say (based on my knowledge of other 3/s supercharging experiences) that you should keep away from supercharging altogether....on a 3/s. i had high hopes for ripp...but the promise soon fizzled out. with the rock-bottom cost of td05 kits, it's stupid NOT to go with turbos; especially for DOHC n/a. stock 9b's will be sufficient for nearly any fwd-tt conversion (not swaps).

for sohc, i would suggest you get in touch with split second motorsports. i believe chatz is looking into making SOHC-specific headers which will allow stock-tt parts to bolt on. if not that, he's definitely looking at making some SOHC single-turbo kits. i would say that's your best bet.

p.s.

i've no idea why SOHC > TT headers hasn't been done before. headers & plenum are about all you'd really need to be able to "bolt-on" all of the stock tt stuff in the same fashion you do it for DOHC. that would make the cost of twin-turbocharging an SOHC relatively inexpensive--even though it would cost more than a DOHC...where you can use only used parts. still, the ~8:1 compression on the SOHC means that you'd have a LOT more room for power than the 10:1 DOHC.

[green-lantern]

I got completely shafted by RIPP when I had a 2g Stratus R/T. They refused to refund 700 dollars because a pair of headers I purchased from them had pinholes at the collectors. When I shipped them back they told me it had been more than 30 days and they cannot warrant the refund anymore...EVEN THOUGH I SHIPPED THEM BACK. WTF kind've business is that? Stay true to the platform I guess and turbocharge it OR go with a SC from elsewhere. RIPP sucks the fatties.

WOW! Crazy! That should be a good tip to the OP.

[IPD]

http://www.3sgto.org/f43/gi-single-turbo-kits-dohc-sohc-3369.html#post60707

post #44. i really like chatz. i hope he pulls it off. it would be one of the greatest things to happen to this platform since the advent of td05 kits.

*edit*

looks like the OP is already subscribed to that thread. did you try contacting them? SSM is EXTREMELY busy from what i gather. it may take them a while to get back with you.

[stealthee]

i've no idea why SOHC > TT headers hasn't been done before. headers & plenum are about all you'd really need to be able to "bolt-on" all of the stock tt stuff in the same fashion you do it for DOHC. that would make the cost of twin-turbocharging an SOHC relatively inexpensive--even though it would cost more than a DOHC...where you can use only used parts. still, the ~8:1 compression on the SOHC means that you'd have a LOT more room for power than the 10:1 DOHC.

I've told you before, it was tried, and it failed. There are so many differences that you still need more custom parts and cant just bolt TT stuff onto a SOHC. Its much easier just to swap out the SOHC for a DOHC engine.

The hardest part of the SOHC to DOHC swap is the alternator wiring. If you have a donor car, everything else you need is there.

[SOHC]

http://www.3sgto.org/f43/gi-single-turbo-kits-dohc-sohc-3369.html#post60707

post #44. i really like chatz. i hope he pulls it off. it would be one of the greatest things to happen to this platform since the advent of td05 kits.

*edit*

looks like the OP is already subscribed to that thread. did you try contacting them? SSM is EXTREMELY busy from what i gather. it may take them a while to get back with you.

I'll try contacting him again hopefully he goes through and makes a sohc turbo kit I'm not looking for a huge amount of power just something around 250-300whp enough to beat most other cars I encounter on a daily basis. Not that I'm racing at every light anyways lol.

Anyways stealthee wouldn't any headers work? It just says performance headers required it doesn't say if they have to be Ripp or not. I would just go with obx ones.

[IPD]

yep. and i read what you posted before. for all we know, that "previous attempt" you reference could have been done by someone as "gifted" as steve68.

i maintain my stance. and...if i had a donor car & any fabrication ability whatsoever--i'd set about proving you wrong. apart from the exhaust flange, there's not a whole lot of difference there. perhaps these people you refer to (whomever they are) tried to use a pair of DOHC manifolds & hack off the DOHC flange & weld an SOHC one to it. i don't know. what i do know is that SOHC is a z11 chassis--just like any other z11 chassis, so making the stock IC/piping work is no different or more difficult.

translation: headers are the only "big-ticket" item that's required. terminal connection between turbo compressor & ic piping (if it will require SOHC specific parts) isn't that hard or complex to make. and you can probably run the tt throttle-body through the stock plenum; and even if you can't, it wouldn't be that difficult to either adapt it; or to customize a plenum based off the SOHC one. and if you can get the turbos to sit in the same place as stock tt's; the stock 02 pipes will work & you won't need a downpipe either.

i have no idea why it wouldn't be "cost effective". i can't possibly fathom why such headers should cost more than $1500--even IF you were talking about a limited-run made for a select-few customers. $1500 to turn your n/a SOHC into plug & play for tt bolt-on-upgrades is quite reasonable, imho. and frankly, i think SSM can and probably will do it for less.

[IPD]

I'll try contacting him again hopefully he goes through and makes a sohc turbo kit I'm not looking for a huge amount of power just something around 250-300whp enough to beat most other cars I encounter on a daily basis. Not that I'm racing at every light anyways lol.

Anyways stealthee wouldn't any headers work? It just says performance headers required it doesn't say if they have to be Ripp or not. I would just go with obx ones.

well if you consider 100whp on an SOHC is probably at MAX 270whp total...that's not a lot. you will still get owned by mustang GT's (especially the new 5.0's). you'll probably be lucky to beat a 370z. and lightly modified evos will destroy you. even IF you were to "max out" your setup on such a supercharger...you'd still barely be on par with a your average 13t car--if you're lucky.

p.s.

i would try pm...and if that doesn't work, try the email on their website. chatz posted recently about the phone problems they were having & gave an alternative method of contact. that's what i'd try.

[MADMarc]

Stick to what daaaaarkness *snickers* is saying. Keep up to date w/Chatz @ SSM. They've only been up and running on the forums for so long and they have a ton of awesome products thus far. Drop him a line directly telling him you are genuinely interested and hope the ball gets rolling from there. I can't pull your arm but if I could say anything that would stick it'd be to avoid RIPP at all costs. When I was dealing with them their customer service was terrible and that's exactly where you will be sent if you run into any issues with the kit. Also, for 270 whp you're not looking at all too much there in terms of power...do something that allows for more flexibility and you will be much happier in the long run when you find yourself needing moooooar :D

[SOHC]

well if you consider 100whp on an SOHC is probably at MAX 270whp total...that's not a lot. you will still get owned by mustang GT's (especially the new 5.0's). you'll probably be lucky to beat a 370z. and lightly modified evos will destroy you. even IF you were to "max out" your setup on such a supercharger...you'd still barely be on par with a your average 13t car--if you're lucky.

p.s.

i would try pm...and if that doesn't work, try the email on their website. chatz posted recently about the phone problems they were having & gave an alternative method of contact. that's what i'd try.

Well if a stock vr4 puts down 240ish and weighs a good deal more and is plenty fast 270whp+ and weighing less will be quite a bit faster. 0-60 in under 5 seconds hopefully assuming I get traction lol.

[IPD]

240 is a bit low. more like 250-260, imho. and i'm being generous, as the SOHC doesn't make anywhere near 170whp; probably more like 140whp. the 160hp factory rating is CRANK. besides, you'll never out-launch a stock vr4...and even from a roll, a BPU one will still waste you.

p.s.

0-60 in under 5 seconds is a joke. you're not going to hit 0-60 in <5 seconds with a drivetrain that will consistently put down 2.3 60' times. i know. i've been there; done that.

[stealthee]

VR4's arent doing 260 at the wheels. 220-240 is average stock WHP for a TT AWD. FWD TT's make 260 because of less drivetrain loss.

I made many 2.2 60's in the SOHC. With more power, I could get it even lower.

[GTwizard]

[QUOTE=inperfectdarkness;93335]intuition tells me you are SOHC.

for sohc, i would suggest you get in touch with split second motorsports. i believe chatz is looking into making SOHC-specific headers which will allow stock-tt parts to bolt on. if not that, he's definitely looking at making some SOHC single-turbo kits. i would say that's your best bet.

Don't do it. Split could make a pair of headers if you paid them. And we did. They supply 3SX with their TD05 headers. So we thought they must be OK. I saw posts that their were issues with their headers, but bought a set anyways. Well my customer did. Could not bolt 02 pipes to turbo and headers would not bolt to head. Headerplates looked as if cut by a blind man with a chain saw. That was the worst set of pipes I have ever seen. Sent them back as they were garbage.
Back to topic
Most every Ripped motor blew.
Let him go. He will find out soon enough. He asked for your thoughts. Then didn't like what everyone had to say.
Don't understand why he bothered to ask in the first place.

[IPD]

that's interesting, gt-wizard; considering i have a set of td05 headers from SSM, and they look NOTHING like the 3sx td05 headers. you can look at the pics on both websites to verify this. even if you didn't trust that though, i know someone who has laid eyes on BOTH types--and he can vouch for them not being the same.

no idea where you got your facts from.


hell...you can see from the pics that ssm's have bracing between the flanges; 3sx's have none.

http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/td05-manifolds-turbos-3sx-custom-kit-019-600l.jpg

http://splitsecondmotorsports.com/SSM/t3opendump.gif

[GTwizard]

Your stuff looks great. That is what I thought I would get. You would not believe what they sent me. It was Gensin that told me they made all the pipes for 3SX.
What ever they were trying to pull, it did not work. I have videos of there stuff. But can not up load do to sat up link cap too small. But I will try to get someone else to post them for me.
This is not some crap I made up. These were supposed to be for Babygirldec19's car. She is a customer of mine and paid big bucks for them. So somewhere from the time you got your stuff and We got ours, something really wrong has taken place over there.
They didn't even send any hardware or even bothered to put gaskets in with the set. Than they promissed to make good on it by sending an other set and never did. Glad you had luck with them, But I'll never order a thing from them ever again.

[IPD]

well to be fair, i've only gotten the headers, not the complete kit--and i haven't installed it yet. that said, i won't hesitate a heartbeat to send it back for a refund and go with IPS if i start running into major problems. i would do the same regardless of what supplier i was buying from. ...the only thing that worries me about this plan is that IPS has been a little flaky on my orders lately.

i do have high hopes, and i'll be sure to post about it when i have everything in hand & can get it assembled.

[J-Groove]

VR4's arent doing 260 at the wheels. 220-240 is average stock WHP for a TT AWD. FWD TT's make 260 because of less drivetrain loss.

I made many 2.2 60's in the SOHC. With more power, I could get it even lower.

Stealthee is spot on.

I dynoed my bone stock VR-4 last year on a mustang dyno and got 248 at the wheels.

I also have a FWD TT conversion, they can be great cars when done properly.

-John

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Your stuff looks great. That is what I thought I would get. You would not believe what they sent me. It was Gensin that told me they made all the pipes for 3SX.
What ever they were trying to pull, it did not work. I have videos of there stuff. But can not up load do to sat up link cap too small. But I will try to get someone else to post them for me.
This is not some crap I made up. These were supposed to be for Babygirldec19's car. She is a customer of mine and paid big bucks for them. So somewhere from the time you got your stuff and We got ours, something really wrong has taken place over there.
They didn't even send any hardware or even bothered to put gaskets in with the set. Than they promissed to make good on it by sending an other set and never did. Glad you had luck with them, But I'll never order a thing from them ever again.

grapevine says Ginsing = Warren from LMI

Not surprised you got crap if that is true.

[GTwizard]

well to be fair, i've only gotten the headers, not the complete kit--and i haven't installed it yet. that said, i won't hesitate a heartbeat to send it back for a refund and go with IPS if i start running into major problems. i would do the same regardless of what supplier i was buying from. ...the only thing that worries me about this plan is that IPS has been a little flaky on my orders lately.

i do have high hopes, and i'll be sure to post about it when i have everything in hand & can get it assembled.

Dude, bolt them to a head you have setting around. The front would bolt, but was so badly twisted it would have cracked. And the rear would no go on at all.
And the head I was using was setting on the bench. So nothing was to interfear.
The other issue was only 3 hole accessable on the rear O2 pipe. The 4th hole was completely blocked out by the pipe itself. If we stay TD05, we will buy from Gil.(GCtechind) Check this out.
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr343/GTwizard/DSCN5238.jpg

I don't know what the heck is up with IPS as well. Stas was going to give me a price on there new all black fuel system for Babygirldec19's car. I told them I would love to use this new system in this build.
They aggreed and said they would get back to me shortly. Had a couple e-mails back and forth, but than nothing. Nothing at all. I have PM, E-mailed, left phone messages and finally gave up. Stas has put me off for 3 months.
That is know way to treat your customers. They have no respect for those that wish to use there products. I have even left messages saying I would speak with someone else if Stas is judt simply too busy. I know how it can get sometimes. I allways have at least 5 cars I am working at the same time. But I NEVER not return phone calls. That is just strait up FN rude. Like I said, wished to use their new system as it would fit right in with the color comination I am working with. But I am done chassing them. If they change their mind and would like their new system to dabue in one of my latest builds, they will have to call me this time.
God I sound like a prick don't I. But seams like lately, no one gives a rats ass about doing their job or doing it well.

These are huge. 1.7 primarey tubes. These are just tacked and ready to be welded. All stainless.

[IPD]

yes, i'm getting the distinct impression that IPS only cares about the SBC crowd now--and has lost all care/concern for the 3/s base.

i'm not anywhere near my car right now, but i'll see about getting a test-fit with the headers.

[mb3000]

grapevine says Ginsing = Warren from LMI

Not surprised you got crap if that is true.

http://www.3sgto.org/f2/lmi-=-ssm-2644.html

From way back.

[IPD]

http://www.3sgto.org/f2/lmi-=-ssm-2644.html

From way back.

i'll keep that in my crosshairs. i also have reservations about GZP.

[GTwizard]

I did not find this stuff till after I sent everything back. But even so I really don't car to much about old history as much as I to the here and now.
Peaple and the companies they work for do and will make mistakes now and then. But this for most people and companies is an opertunity for them to improve on their manufacturing process
and their mistakes. We build cars and get parts from all over the world. And even manufactor a few of our oun. If you have an impot and wish for the most bad ass welding you have ever see. Look at parts coming out of Korea.
Holy crap. The welding and fit up even before weld is absolute perfect. They care about performce and what it takes to get there. Sloppy construction will never get you there. Same with parts from Japan. Flawless.
Yes, you will pay out the butt for some of their products. But you know what, People do pay. And for good reason. They want the best. What we have here is where the owners of these little companies here wish to make a "fast nickle" reather than wait for the
"slow quarter". So we get cheap stuff made here. and give up on the quality. That's a thought ha?
Bottom line
If these guys would build something here worth buying, they too could charge top dollar.

[toddrs93]

The most complex swap we did was putting a 1st gen 1991 VR4 motor/ECU into a 3rd en 1997 SOHC 3000GT. I think the guy ended up with like $6000-$7000 in it, with a low mileage stock motor, stock intercoolers, stock fuel system, full tanabe exhaust, clutch kit and some other things. It was definitely a huge pain over the DOHC swap again like everyone said because all the accessories and alot of wiring is different.

A decent alternative would be the rear mount turbo kits. We have done a few of those and they definitely provide a better bang for your buck than the supercharger I think, and they leave alot of options open. You can start with a simple set-up and build off of it.

[mb3000]

The most complex swap we did was putting a 1st gen 1991 VR4 motor/ECU into a 3rd en 1997 SOHC 3000GT. I think the guy ended up with like $6000-$7000 in it, with a low mileage stock motor, stock intercoolers, stock fuel system, full tanabe exhaust, clutch kit and some other things. It was definitely a huge pain over the DOHC swap again like everyone said because all the accessories and alot of wiring is different.

A decent alternative would be the rear mount turbo kits. We have done a few of those and they definitely provide a better bang for your buck than the supercharger I think, and they leave alot of options open. You can start with a simple set-up and build off of it.


Got any pics besides your avatar?

[toddrs93]

Auto Velocity | REAR MOUNT TURBO STEALTH BUILD Photo Album on Myspace (http://www.myspace.com/autovelocity/photos/albums/rear-mount-turbo-stealth-build/964197#mssrc=SitesPhotos_SP_AlbumCover_ViewAlbum)

theres some of the original ones, we have changed the exhaust since then, and the turbo

sorry I didn't realize they were so small, I'll look for some more

[Boost4VR4]

I am hoping someone comes up for headers for running a single turbo on the SOHC... I mean I understand the heads are much smaller and the exhaust ports are way smaller, but there has to be a way to just redesign the IPS single turbo manifolds and put a different exhaust flange facing the heads. I know the OBX headers are available for the SOHC. The SOHC has a low compression ratio, it is so ready for boost at this point. I am looking to redesign the IPS single turbo manifold kit to bolt on to the SOHC heads and sticking a GT30R with a divided T4 flange and full standalone. Any insight?

[ldcarson]

I guess I am one of the few that still has a fully functioning rippMods SC kit, although, mine was re-engineered to work differntly than what ripp originally laid out. It took me a long time (alomst 2-3 years) to get it righta dn probably cost between 7-8K after all was said and done. But I do love the car!!!! My kit was aroun d 3800 dollars, but then there are the charges for your time and differnt parts since the kit did not work as advertised. Its still a beast now and still runs great. Love my sohc SC, nothing like merging into traffic with a coffee in your hand....

[TUFFTR]

pics of your install?!

[ibsorgn]

Knight may have had success with other platforms, but his SC's for the 3s SUCK.




What exactly is wrong with the TK SCs for the 3000GT. "Suck" is a pretty strong word to discribe a product! How about some specifics.

[ibsorgn]

i would say (based on my knowledge of other 3/s supercharging experiences) that you should keep away from supercharging altogether....on a 3/s.

Lots of different types of Superchargers, are you referring to any particular type or just all Superchargers? What is your experiences?

[stealthee]

What exactly is wrong with the TK SCs for the 3000GT. "Suck" is a pretty strong word to discribe a product! How about some specifics.

Cars with them installed running stock times. Cars seeing a max of 3 psi of boost. I can't say I have ever seen a success story of a TK supercharger on a 3s.

People who try to go the supercharger route on a 3s are wasting money. They spend more money to be slower than a TT conversion.

[ibsorgn]

Cars with them installed running stock times. Cars seeing a max of 3 psi of boost. I can't say I have ever seen a success story of a TK supercharger on a 3s.

People who try to go the supercharger route on a 3s are wasting money. They spend more money to be slower than a TT conversion.

I'm been running a TK supercharger system for over 2 years with no problems. I'm using a Magunson 4th gen MP90 setup for 8 pounds of boost. Your comment about wasting money going the supercharger route is ridiculous but very typical. Most who make that kind of statement have no experience but only parrot what they hear from other parrots. Spend more money, untrue as I priced both an SC and TT setups. The TT setup would cost me over 20% more money. Now mind you I was comparing apples to apples (new equiptment costs , not salvage yard TT equipment against new SC equipment). Slower than TTs? I guess than depends on what type of boost levels you are at. If you are talking about the same boost levels then your wrong. SCs don't have to spool up as boost is immediate. I highly recommend an SC for those running automatics due to the low end torque they afford.
I chose the supercharger route because I wanted to be different and also to debunk the BS about supercharging. What fun is it to travel the same path that 100s or maybe 1000s have traveled why not be adventurous and do something different? Where is your pioneering spirit?

[mb3000]

Is your SC sticking out of the hood?

[IPD]

I'm been running a TK supercharger system for over 2 years with no problems. I'm using a Magunson 4th gen MP90 setup for 8 pounds of boost. Your comment about wasting money going the supercharger route is ridiculous but very typical. Most who make that kind of statement have no experience but only parrot what they hear from other parrots. Spend more money, untrue as I priced both an SC and TT setups. The TT setup would cost me over 20% more money. Now mind you I was comparing apples to apples (new equiptment costs , not salvage yard TT equipment against new SC equipment). Slower than TTs? I guess than depends on what type of boost levels you are at. If you are talking about the same boost levels then your wrong. SCs don't have to spool up as boost is immediate. I highly recommend an SC for those running automatics due to the low end torque they afford.
I chose the supercharger route because I wanted to be different and also to debunk the BS about supercharging. What fun is it to travel the same path that 100s or maybe 1000s have traveled why not be adventurous and do something different? Where is your pioneering spirit?

i know a guy who parted out his car because of the fail behind the TK kit.

brian is 1000% correct. no one in their right mind would think "hey, i need to use new parts for this tt conversion". you can literally swing a tt conversion for around a grand if you shop around--two grand will probably get you a complete tt swap. and once you've completed a swap--sc's can't even begin to hope to level the playing field.

this isn't a native sc platform. the tt parts are stock & therefore easy to obtain for those who are looking to upgrade. there's also a litany of people who have done it & a wealth of information on how to accomplish it. sc support? ripp abandoned ship. tk's kit failures are rather well known. virtually EVERYTHING you need to run a sc is custom--from the intake to the headers (i can vividly recall ripp emphasizing that the stock n/a manifolds were insufficient).

furthermore, centrifuge superchargers do NOT offer any significant thermal benefits over their equivalent turbocharger counterparts. they are only slightly more thermally efficient than a roots blower, and far, far inferior to a twin-screw. in any event, support has and continues to be limited, and the potential for future upgrades is probably the second biggest reason NOT to get a supercharger (cost being the first). with tt's, it's easy to swap out turbos for bigger boost.

guess what? i also have an automatic. twin turbocharged. 8:1 compression. 8psi. it's hardly a slouch. making an atx peppier doesn't require sc's--it just requires forced induction (or some good atx mods--or both). pioneering spirit? pioneering spirit is great for people with money to burn and nothing better to do. please double-check the current cost of this platform & tell me, when exactly does that apply to 99% of this platform's ownership?

i love superchargers. i'm a big fan of them in many applications. that said, with the 3/s, turbocharging just makes more sense. been there, done that, someone can read you a book on how to get it done.

[ibsorgn]

i know a guy who parted out his car because of the fail behind the TK kit.

brian is 1000% correct. no one in their right mind would think "hey, i need to use new parts for this tt conversion". you can literally swing a tt conversion for around a grand if you shop around--two grand will probably get you a complete tt swap. and once you've completed a swap--sc's can't even begin to hope to level the playing field.

this isn't a native sc platform. the tt parts are stock & therefore easy to obtain for those who are looking to upgrade. there's also a litany of people who have done it & a wealth of information on how to accomplish it. sc support? ripp abandoned ship. tk's kit failures are rather well known. virtually EVERYTHING you need to run a sc is custom--from the intake to the headers (i can vividly recall ripp emphasizing that the stock n/a manifolds were insufficient).

furthermore, centrifuge superchargers do NOT offer any significant thermal benefits over their equivalent turbocharger counterparts. they are only slightly more thermally efficient than a roots blower, and far, far inferior to a twin-screw. in any event, support has and continues to be limited, and the potential for future upgrades is probably the second biggest reason NOT to get a supercharger (cost being the first). with tt's, it's easy to swap out turbos for bigger boost.

guess what? i also have an automatic. twin turbocharged. 8:1 compression. 8psi. it's hardly a slouch. making an atx peppier doesn't require sc's--it just requires forced induction (or some good atx mods--or both). pioneering spirit? pioneering spirit is great for people with money to burn and nothing better to do. please double-check the current cost of this platform & tell me, when exactly does that apply to 99% of this platform's ownership?

i love superchargers. i'm a big fan of them in many applications. that said, with the 3/s, turbocharging just makes more sense. been there, done that, someone can read you a book on how to get it done.

So are you telling me that I'm an anomaly? I read about SC failures all the time and one thing that most all the posts have in common is that they are made by a third person, e.g. my buddy, my friend's friend, my uncle, I knew a guy. My post is in direct response to TK supercharging systems. To make blanket statements like you made shows a real nativity. I'm not a SC bigget and put down turbos, I see pros and cons in both systems. You're right about one thing and that is it takes a custom manifold adapter, where you get custom headers is beyond me. Your also right about being out there by yourself concerning building. support and upgrades but isn't that is what pioneering is all about. I didn't have the trail blazed by a factory and just copied what they did. If you have done a roots system on a 3/s you will have my ear otherwise I just hear another parrot. I'm an old man yet I can't help but feel that our rolls should have been reversed, with the pioneering spirit belonging more to the young people and the old folks taking the safe well traveled TT route.

p.s. Just for fun, send me a couple of links on where you can obtain a new medium quality TT setup for 2k

[ibsorgn]

Is your SC sticking out of the hood?

If memory serves I believe it was about 1/2" to 3/4" I created a write up on the initial install of my TK supercharger in Stealth316. Fully illustrated and it shows the work on the hood and the final product. I understand that some of Knight's earlier models required no hood relief but there may have been some modifications for clearance.


Thomas Knight Supercharger Install on Mitsubishi 3000GT (http://www.stealth316.com/Supercharger_Install.htm)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

hell for $2k you could have 13Ts and make 450AWHP.

What is really involved in a TT swap? You basically only need a stock set of manifolds, turbos, lines, an intercooler setup, more fuel, and a method to tune. To do the supercharger you still need an intercooler setup if you want to make any serious power, more fuel, and a method to tune.

So, you need a set of manifolds, turbos, and some oil lines to run a TT setup. A set of stock manifolds are practically free. They will run all day for $100. A set of 13Ts in new condition is $1000 or less. A set of stock new feed lines are about $50.00. You can get away with using used return lines that go for about $25 or if you want buy a new set at about $75.00. The coolant line parts you can get from a partout and the TT water necks are really cheap as well. You can skip the water cooling if you really want to and give the turbos time to cool down after driving.

The stock intake pipes and bubble are practically free these days as well. I think I sold my stock intake pipes for $25.00 a few years ago.

[ibsorgn]

hell for $2k you could have 13Ts and make 450AWHP.

What is really involved in a TT swap? You basically only need a stock set of manifolds, turbos, lines, an intercooler setup, more fuel, and a method to tune. To do the supercharger you still need an intercooler setup if you want to make any serious power, more fuel, and a method to tune.

So, you need a set of manifolds, turbos, and some oil lines to run a TT setup. A set of stock manifolds are practically free. They will run all day for $100. A set of 13Ts in new condition is $1000 or less. A set of stock new feed lines are about $50.00. You can get away with using used return lines that go for about $25 or if you want buy a new set at about $75.00. The coolant line parts you can get from a partout and the TT water necks are really cheap as well. You can skip the water cooling if you really want to and give the turbos time to cool down after driving.

The stock intake pipes and bubble are practically free these days as well. I think I sold my stock intake pipes for $25.00 a few years ago.

Oh, the old junkyard build, and don't forget those pesky items like ECU, injectors, wiring, gauges, fuel pump and regulator, maybe some type of a piggyback controller ..........

Serious power - intercooler agreed. 450hp! well not with the OEM drive line.
My goal was to create a well behaved, reliable, good fuel economy, maintenance free setup. In place of an IC I went old school with WMI spraying at 2.5 psi works very well.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Oh, the old junkyard build, and don't forget those pesky items like ECU, injectors, wiring, gauges, fuel pump and regulator, maybe some type of a piggyback controller ..........

Serious power - intercooler agreed. 450hp! well not with the OEM drive line.
My goal was to create a well behaved, reliable, good fuel economy, maintenance free setup. In place of an IC I went old school with WMI spraying at 2.5 psi works very well.

Maybe if you'd read my post you'd see I addressed those items. It isn't like you named anything that you don't need with BOTH types of setups.

What's wrong with sourcing a few used parts? Are you saying a "new" set of exhaust manifolds from mitsu are going to be any different from old uncracked ones? Mine are 20 years old and are like new. A new water housing is going to magically make your car more special?

Let's see your complete setup. What has it been dyno'ed at? What 1/4 times have you run? What is your fuel mileage?

[IPD]

honestly, who gives a flying rip about new? if someone wanted NEW...they'd be buying dr650's and spanking the piss out of ANY supercharger. trust me, the price/performance is NOT there for a supercharger, i've seen it with my own eyes.

as far as my buddy, he goes by the login of "benson8277" on 3si. i used to work with him. he's hardly a stranger to this platform. you're welcome to ask him the details yourself.

p.s.

450 whp is where the driveline fails? ROFLMFAO. you'd better tell that to the dsm guys who are running f4a33 transmissions and setting world records with them.

[ibsorgn]

Maybe if you'd read my post you'd see I addressed those items. It isn't like you named anything that you don't need with BOTH types of setups.

What's wrong with sourcing a few used parts? Are you saying a "new" set of exhaust manifolds from mitsu are going to be any different from old uncracked ones? Mine are 20 years old and are like new. A new water housing is going to magically make your car more special?

Let's see your complete setup. What has it been dyno'ed at? What 1/4 times have you run? What is your fuel mileage?

Nothing wrong with a junkyard build but you get what you pay for. Normally I never hear that the used parts are ever rebuilt or the costs associated with the rebuild. Those folks that feel more comfortable copying a factory setup, fine. My cost comparision included all those major, pesky and incidentals or a least everything I could think of between the two systems. Installation of the SC was far more simpler and shorter than what I read a TT install takes. All totaled, I spent about 6k for all my engine mods including things like SS headers, complete exhaust system replacement, WMI, injectors, Fuel pump & adjustable regulator, ECU, Apexi Neo, Clutch Wideband O2, gauges and lots of incidentals. Dyno'd, been a long time ago but it was just over 300hp and torque was about the same. I believe they told me that those numbers would equate to about 360-370 at the flywheel due to parasitic loss. Never wanted to take things an further as that would mean driveline upgrades . At this stage, there is more power than what I can apply to the asphalt. Drag racing? pointless without a LSD diff or insert. For than rush I rely on my Duster.

Look, the only reason why I responded to this thread is I don't like all the trashing of SC upgrades. It can be done relatively easily (i'm not that much of a wrencher), it's reliable, generates smooth responsive power , nice low end torque at low rpms. Oh, my fuel MPG is little over 20 in town and 26-27 on the highway but I believe that my bi-pass valve will increase that by a few mpg. Will install with my 60k maintenance which I in the process of doing.

[ibsorgn]

I know Benson and have corresponded with him. He was pushing things hard. That's all I'm going to say on that subject.

[ibsorgn]

p.s.

450 whp is where the driveline fails? ROFLMFAO. you'd better tell that to the dsm guys who are running f4a33 transmissions and setting world records with them.


And just how stock is the trans? ROFLMFAO!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

And just how stock is the trans? ROFLMFAO!

stock with full line pressure mod has run very deep in the 10s.

So, you are saying if we don't get every single part brand new then it is a junkyard build? I guess my car is a junkyard build then. I've only got about $6K in my DR750s and engine rebuild. But, I didnt buy a new block from mitsu so I guess it is all junkyard to you.

[ibsorgn]

stock with full line pressure mod has run very deep in the 10s.

So, you are saying if we don't get every single part brand new then it is a junkyard build? I guess my car is a junkyard build then. I've only got about $6K in my DR750s and engine rebuild. But, I didnt buy a new block from mitsu so I guess it is all junkyard to you.

If you want to keep this conversation at an adult level I'm willing to talk. Now, how stock was the transmission?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

If you want to keep this conversation at an adult level I'm willing to talk. Now, how stock was the transmission?

stock

[ibsorgn]

stock

Sorry I thought we were talking about a manual transmissions. Don't know nothing about automatics.

[IPD]

Sorry I thought we were talking about a manual transmissions. Don't know nothing about automatics.

or much about the established upgrade routes for this platform. in any event, you insinuated that "sc is a great upgrade for autos". having owned an atx for 9 years, i think i'm expertly qualified to share my views on n/a fwd, tt fwd and tt awd atx setups. the ONLY reason to ever switch from atx to mtx (not counting those that came as mtx) is for personal preference. honestly the atx's are cheaper (especially the awd's) and run very reliably. ask chris hill about the one he ran into the 9's on a vr4.

now if you want to talk about fwd mtx's, then yes--it's a pos made of glass and balsa-wood. it's a night & day difference form the fwd atx as far as durability goes.

fwiw, my tt SWAP (complete vr4 engine transplant into my car) cost me less than your build--and i paid 3sx to do it. furthermore, if "pushing the car hard" disqualifies the sc, then why in god's name would anyone want to run one? i'm fairly certain that austin@stm was able to push his stealth harder on stock turbos than benson anyone has ever reliably pushed a tk kit.

nor do i feel that "300awhp" is acceptable as an upper limit for those who are modding. just because that's where fwd starts to go hairy doesn't mean that it's the acceptable limit--and if someone wanted to upgrade from there (or do an awd conversion later)--it's a MAJOR endeavor to upgrade the supercharger. turbo swaps are piss easy.

[stealthee]

it's a MAJOR endeavor to upgrade the supercharger. turbo swaps are piss easy.

I'll just snip that last part Thadd.

You are still not going to get as much power gain out of a sc upgrade/pulley drop as you would out of a small turbo upgrade and turning the boost up.

I also own a supercharged Grand Prix and am a member of a forum for them. Any of those guys who want to make seriuos power, yank the SC off and go turbo.

And I laugh, ibsorgn keeps saying he wants to keep this at an adult level, yet all I can visulaize him doing is running around in circles with the hands covering his ears going "lalalalalalalala can't hear you, lalalalalalalala can't hear you"

[ibsorgn]

or much about the established upgrade routes for this platform. in any event, you insinuated that "sc is a great upgrade for autos". having owned an atx for 9 years, i think i'm expertly qualified to share my views on n/a fwd, tt fwd and tt awd atx setups. the ONLY reason to ever switch from atx to mtx (not counting those that came as mtx) is for personal preference. honestly the atx's are cheaper (especially the awd's) and run very reliably. ask chris hill about the one he ran into the 9's on a vr4.

now if you want to talk about fwd mtx's, then yes--it's a pos made of glass and balsa-wood. it's a night & day difference form the fwd atx as far as durability goes.

fwiw, my tt SWAP (complete vr4 engine transplant into my car) cost me less than your build--and i paid 3sx to do it. furthermore, if "pushing the car hard" disqualifies the sc, then why in god's name would anyone want to run one? i'm fairly certain that austin@stm was able to push his stealth harder on stock turbos than benson anyone has ever reliably pushed a tk kit.

nor do i feel that "300awhp" is acceptable as an upper limit for those who are modding. just because that's where fwd starts to go hairy doesn't mean that it's the acceptable limit--and if someone wanted to upgrade from there (or do an awd conversion later)--it's a MAJOR endeavor to upgrade the supercharger. turbo swaps are piss easy.

Amazing, do you take everything so litterly? I set my parameters for myself and not for anyone else but you stand by with your concrete pouring it around every word I say as though I'm setting the rules. All of my comments have been focused on MTX FWD NAs. It is folks like you that have been distorting my words and broading the focus. I'm not about to comment or pretend that I know nothing other than the platform I run. You can't seem to comprehend that there maybe folks that enjoy limited modifications, whether that be restricted to motors, suspensions, styling etc. I get the impression that it is this big contest to one up the next guy. Can't seem to have a conversation without people thinking that their toes are being stepped on. And of course making outrageous statements like 'it's a MAJOR endeavor to upgrade the supercharger. turbo swaps are piss easy" show a real immaturity and lack of knowledge. Now let your childish comments flow as I have said all I'm going to on this Thread.

[stealthee]

^^^ "lalalalalalalala can't hear you, lalalalalalalala can't hear you"

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

^^^ "lalalalalalalala can't hear you, lalalalalalalala can't hear you"

He just doesn't want a junkyard build like mine that's all. Every last nut, bolt, wire, fuel component, everything on his car is new from mitsubishi. His parts list is longer than the old testament.

[IPD]

I highly recommend an SC for those running automatics due to the low end torque they afford.

well honestly, if you DON'T have an automatic, wtf would you say this? sure you come back LATER and say you have mtx, but you didn't say that up front--you just said this. if yours ISN'T automatic, you really can't speak to them, now can you? furthermore, unless you've driven both tt and sc atx's...you really can't just go spouting off that sc's are so great for atx's. maybe they are and maybe they aren't.

but i'm not here to debate merits of performance for lower boost levels. for all i care, the performance can be virtually identical. the PRICE however, is not. never has been, never will be. WAY, WAY, WAY too many used OEM tt parts floating around for any sc setup to even remotely have a hope of leveling the playing field--even used sc's.

p.s.

brian is correct about superchargers. while i'm not up on the gran-prix community, i am aware of ford GT owners doing the same thing; ripping out the supercharger & installing turbos--and that's a TWIN SCREW. unless your car was BUILT for superchargers, you're really "locked in" when it comes to trying any upgrades (and even then, there's not a lot you can do). if you have a SPECIFIC power goal in mind, you want a "fire & forget" solution, and you're willing to do nearly all the leg-work yourself, you can supercharge just about any vehicle. developing a custom turbocharged system is far less painful.

...i'm pretty sure that's why you don't hear about supercharged gallardo's--but you hear about tt'd ones all the time.

[Valhallaz]

The original question was "Is it worth it". The answer is clearly no. On a bang for the buck basis, on our cars, TT is the only practical option.

Hell, my fwd tt swap is pushing 14 lbs on 13g's, and I seriously doubt I have 6 grand in the whole car.

Look down your nose at my "Junkyard Build" all you wish, but on 8 lbs of boost, you'll also be looking down your nose at my tail lights receeding in the distance...

[stealthknight619]

Do you mind sharing the specs of your FWD TT swap set up? Thx

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

[NickS VR4]

The best bang for the buck is one of two options, and its clear. Go with the TT conversion or sell your NA and get a VR4/RTTT. For the time and money you are spending on these conversions, why not just sell what you have and get one already set up. I bought my 94 VR4 for $3000 w/ FMIC, 550cc injectors & 13Ts, that SC setup is costing $2k plus all the additional crap you need to run. How is that cost effective?

VR4s are going cheap these days and are all ready for further upgrades.

[Blown3000]

Been a long time reader but never really had much of a desire to chime in but I believe that roots style supercharging is a nice alternative to turbo charging and, in my case I could not be more pleased. I'm running a Knight system similar to IBSORGNs and it has performed flawlessly. In case you didn't read his link he published a very comprehensive and fully illustrated stage 1 install on Stealth316.com. I followed that install step by step and my installation went seamlessly.

In reading the entire thread, it seemed that you guys really became upset when he used the term "Junkyard", well I got some of my stuff from the junkyard too, however I guess he wouldn't have stepped so hard on your toes if, maybe, he had used a more politically correct term like "Salvage" or "Doner" or maybe "PreOwned". But I sure didn't see it as a point to get jacked over, after all "used" is "used" however you want to sugar-coat it .

I never read in the thread were IBSORGN denigrated anyone for not using new parts he stated that his price comparison for builds (supercharging verses turbocharging) he tried to insure that he was comparing "apples to apples" (new parts to new parts). I think he had a valid point as many TT builds start out a "Doner" builds but eventually move on to new turbos, injectors, control units and accessories etc. BTW, he never said costs had to be based on a particular manufacture as GUMP commented. Also, IBSORGN ask a question to IPD that I was really anxious to hear the answer to and that was "p.s. Just for fun, send me a couple of links on where you can obtain a new medium quality TT setup for 2k". I was hoping that someone was going to address his point about the factoring of rebuild costs on used parts but I guess everyone was seeing to much red to reply and just set their focus on trying to put this recusant in his place!

I had a good laugh when you TT folks started the old macho talk eg., my turbo is better, bigger, faster, more powerful and shinier than your SC is! kind of school yard stuff! In defense of IBSORGN, I never got the impression he was trying to sell anyone on SCs, I believe he stated that he was wanted to "debunk the BS about supercharging". Sorry I have to back up a little he did say he recommended SCs for automatics because of increase torque at low rpm which is certainly true. I took that comment more from a DD perspective but I could be wrong.

If supercharging is such a poor choice why are the most powerful engines in the world AA fuel dragsters, Blown? What is it that makes Ford's Super Snake, or Corvetts's ZR1, or Cadillac's CTS and many other manufactures choose supercharging? Do you know something that their engineers don't? Look the bottom line is forced induction increases engine power and torque and I think we can all agree on that. How you get there and what limits you want to place is your choice. You shouldn't chastise someone about their choice and the limits they set.

I like IBSORGN choose supercharging because not many folks do them and I wanted my 3000 to be different plus, I enjoy taking a risk (in lieu of the calumnious chat concerning supercharging). Never gave much thought to unbridled power, just wanted something I could install myself, deliver more low rpm power, have little impact on fuel mileage, and create no maintenance problems (install it & forget it). The GT runs fine, have had no problems with it and runs like it got a little V8. I'm happy!

BTW STEALTHEE, your comment " Cars with them installed running stock times. Cars seeing a max of 3 psi of boost. I can't say I have ever seen a success story of a TK supercharger on a 3s", Now you can say that you only know of two! Oh, for what it is worth, I run mderate 6 psi of boost.

[mb3000]

Been a long time reader but never really had much of a desire to chime in but I believe that roots style supercharging is a nice alternative to turbo charging and, in my case I could not be more pleased. I'm running a Knight system similar to IBSORGNs and it has performed flawlessly. In case you didn't read his link he published a very comprehensive and fully illustrated stage 1 install on Stealth316.com. I followed that install step by step and my installation went seamlessly.

In reading the entire thread, it seemed that you guys really became upset when he used the term "Junkyard", well I got some of my stuff from the junkyard too, however I guess he wouldn't have stepped so hard on your toes if, maybe, he had used a more politically correct term like "Salvage" or "Doner" or maybe "PreOwned". But I sure didn't see it as a point to get jacked over, after all "used" is "used" however you want to sugar-coat it .

I never read in the thread were IBSORGN denigrated anyone for not using new parts he stated that his price comparison for builds (supercharging verses turbocharging) he tried to insure that he was comparing "apples to apples" (new parts to new parts). I think he had a valid point as many TT builds start out a "Doner" builds but eventually move on to new turbos, injectors, control units and accessories etc. BTW, he never said costs had to be based on a particular manufacture as GUMP commented. Also, IBSORGN ask a question to IPD that I was really anxious to hear the answer to and that was "p.s. Just for fun, send me a couple of links on where you can obtain a new medium quality TT setup for 2k". I was hoping that someone was going to address his point about the factoring of rebuild costs on used parts but I guess everyone was seeing to much red to reply and just set their focus on trying to put this recusant in his place!

I had a good laugh when you TT folks started the old macho talk eg., my turbo is better, bigger, faster, more powerful and shinier than your SC is! kind of school yard stuff! In defense of IBSORGN, I never got the impression he was trying to sell anyone on SCs, I believe he stated that he was wanted to "debunk the BS about supercharging". Sorry I have to back up a little he did say he recommended SCs for automatics because of increase torque at low rpm which is certainly true. I took that comment more from a DD perspective but I could be wrong.

If supercharging is such a poor choice why are the most powerful engines in the world AA fuel dragsters, Blown? What is it that makes Ford's Super Snake, or Corvetts's ZR1, or Cadillac's CTS and many other manufactures choose supercharging? Do you know something that their engineers don't? Look the bottom line is forced induction increases engine power and torque and I think we can all agree on that. How you get there and what limits you want to place is your choice. You shouldn't chastise someone about their choice and the limits they set.

I like IBSORGN choose supercharging because not many folks do them and I wanted my 3000 to be different plus, I enjoy taking a risk (in lieu of the calumnious chat concerning supercharging). Never gave much thought to unbridled power, just wanted something I could install myself, deliver more low rpm power, have little impact on fuel mileage, and create no maintenance problems (install it & forget it). The GT runs fine, have had no problems with it and runs like it got a little V8. I'm happy!

BTW STEALTHEE, your comment " Cars with them installed running stock times. Cars seeing a max of 3 psi of boost. I can't say I have ever seen a success story of a TK supercharger on a 3s", Now you can say that you only know of two! Oh, for what it is worth, I run mderate 6 psi of boost.

I would have left that part out.

[IPD]

"blown", i think you missed the part where i said supercharging is a great solution on some platforms that were DESIGNED for it. the 3/s was never designed for superchargers--and having such a wealth of support for turbochargers, it really doesn't make a lot of sense to re-invent the wheel for (if you're lucky) performance parity.

fwiw, those "high-performance" supercharged cars you list...how many of them are twin-screw, not centrifuge/roots? twin-screw DOES have significant advantages due to the markedly better adiabatic efficiency--but roots/centrifuge can (at best) hope to equal a turbocharger. and as i've pointed out MANY times through the years, there is NO twin-screw solution for this platform. if there were, i might even consider getting it myself. maybe.

i used to be firmly in the "supercharged" camp. i was agog when ripp offered his kit originally. that of course fell through because sohc owners realized it was cheaper to sell & buy a vr4 than to just buy the ripp kit (not to mention the installation--which would make you a pioneer by definition). that's why so many attempts fail--you have to compete at the price/performance/value for what exists on a given platform. those who can afford a tk kit could also afford a 16g kit--and the performance comparison between the two is silly.

even for an SOHC, turbocharging makes sense--assuming you can market a kit that allows customers to utilize the overabundance of existing OEM tt parts.

again, i don't know WHY anyone would ask a silly question like finding a "new" turbo setup for 2 grand. if someone with an n/a has a 2k budget, OEM tt conversion is the best bang-for-buck solution. if that same person has more than 2k, than an aftermarket tt kit (or bolt-on-turbo-upgrades) will still offer better bang-for-buck than any supercharger (at least that's currently fielded).

now if you could magically convince some vendor to offer a twin-screw kit for 8:1 compression that would support up to 700awhp, and cost ~$3000, THEN you might have something. let me know if you find someone to do that. i'll consider signing up.

[Blown3000]

"blown", i think you missed the part where i said supercharging is a great solution on some platforms that were DESIGNED for it. the 3/s was never designed for superchargers--and having such a wealth of support for turbochargers, it really doesn't make a lot of sense to re-invent the wheel for (if you're lucky) performance parity.

fwiw, those "high-performance" supercharged cars you list...how many of them are twin-screw, not centrifuge/roots? twin-screw DOES have significant advantages due to the markedly better adiabatic efficiency--but roots/centrifuge can (at best) hope to equal a turbocharger. and as i've pointed out MANY times through the years, there is NO twin-screw solution for this platform. if there were, i might even consider getting it myself. maybe.

i used to be firmly in the "supercharged" camp. i was agog when ripp offered his kit originally. that of course fell through because sohc owners realized it was cheaper to sell & buy a vr4 than to just buy the ripp kit (not to mention the installation--which would make you a pioneer by definition). that's why so many attempts fail--you have to compete at the price/performance/value for what exists on a given platform. those who can afford a tk kit could also afford a 16g kit--and the performance comparison between the two is silly.

even for an SOHC, turbocharging makes sense--assuming you can market a kit that allows customers to utilize the overabundance of existing OEM tt parts.

again, i don't know WHY anyone would ask a silly question like finding a "new" turbo setup for 2 grand. if someone with an n/a has a 2k budget, OEM tt conversion is the best bang-for-buck solution. if that same person has more than 2k, than an aftermarket tt kit (or bolt-on-turbo-upgrades) will still offer better bang-for-buck than any supercharger (at least that's currently fielded).

now if you could magically convince some vendor to offer a twin-screw kit for 8:1 compression that would support up to 700awhp, and cost ~$3000, THEN you might have something. let me know if you find someone to do that. i'll consider signing up.

You seem to simply dismiss the fact that some choose to supercharge to be "UNIQUE". You also seem to be unwilling to accept that, for some absolute power may not be the ultimate focus. I can't for the life of me understand why it is so troubling to many in this forum to accept supercharging as an alternative to turbocharging. I'm sure people go into these types of projects with eyes wide open. I know I certainly did.

BTW, out of curiosity, I did a little research concerning Top Fuel supercharger types and root style is used and they run boost levels exceeding 60psi. I'm too lazy to research to any detail but I do know that Edelbrock, has a highly successfully supercharging system that uses a roots TVS. So just knowing that one would have to accept that roots applications have their place otherwise I would be unable be believe that so many could be so wrong.

Concerning the 2grand TT setup, It was you that made the "silly" claim. According to the thread it was IBSORGN that ask you for some links to products and pricing.
I never read anywhere were IBSORN did any chest beating about supercharging. All the comparisons and braggadocios has come from the other side of the fence.
It is my desire, like IBSORGN's, to dispel the talk about supercharging a 3S as an exercise in futility.

When it comes to types of superchargers, all I know is that each system, be it centrifugal, vain, roots, or screw offer advantages and disadvantages. I agreed with TK's logic and followed IBSORGN's install and things worked out quite well. For the system I got I thought the cost was fair.
As far as asking me to convince a vendor to offer a system, twin screw or otherwise, I'm not here to sell anything so you're barking up the wrong tree.

[IPD]

i feel like i'm talking to a brick wall here.

how is a tt-conversion for 2 grand "silly"? if you're not selling anything, why would you continue to denigrade me and other platform owners whose years of experience in the community have seen countless people attempt and fail with supercharging?

i don't run a top-fuel dragster, and if you built your 3/s to run like one--that's your cup of tea. i hope you have piles of money to burn. fwiw, the zr1, ford gt, and gt-500 all use twin-screw. i'd imagine NHRA sticks to roots because they engines blow up so often that it doesn't make sense to put something expensive like a twin-screw in there (and the fact that the lower rpm bands don't matter for shit--which is where twin-screw really shines).

my point was simply that if you factor in all the benefits and drawbacks to all the different types of forced-induction systems--AND factor in the existing support base for this platform--supercharging just does not compute. at NO price-range can ANY supercharging system equal or beat a turbocharged system--for this platform. it has NEVER happened. if you like the "novelty" of it, teriffic...more power to you. it still doesn't change the facts. and if you are all about the "novelty" of something, why not drive a pontiac aztek or a vw beetle?

how cheap is it to turbocharge?

safc2 - $250
MBC - $30
used 360cc injectors - $100
walbro fuel pump & hotwire kit - $100
used 9b turbos - $500
used tt manifolds, plenum, piping & smics - $500
tt downpipe & flex section - $150
DIY single-shot catback - $150

and these are generous estimates. sometimes you can find people who are just looking to get rid of parts ASAP because they don't have room. if you have more cash, you can probably find used turbo upgrades for not much more (old dr500's, 13t's, 15g's, etc).

supercharger kits?

1. good luck finding them
2. if you do find them, do a bang-for-the-buck comparison to ANY turbocharger kit.
3. FAIL TO PROFIT?

[Blown3000]

i feel like i'm talking to a brick wall here.

how is a tt-conversion for 2 grand "silly"? if you're not selling anything, why would you continue to denigrade me and other platform owners whose years of experience in the community have seen countless people attempt and fail with supercharging?

i don't run a top-fuel dragster, and if you built your 3/s to run like one--that's your cup of tea. i hope you have piles of money to burn. fwiw, the zr1, ford gt, and gt-500 all use twin-screw. i'd imagine NHRA sticks to roots because they engines blow up so often that it doesn't make sense to put something expensive like a twin-screw in there (and the fact that the lower rpm bands don't matter for shit--which is where twin-screw really shines).

my point was simply that if you factor in all the benefits and drawbacks to all the different types of forced-induction systems--AND factor in the existing support base for this platform--supercharging just does not compute. at NO price-range can ANY supercharging system equal or beat a turbocharged system--for this platform. it has NEVER happened. if you like the "novelty" of it, teriffic...more power to you. it still doesn't change the facts. and if you are all about the "novelty" of something, why not drive a pontiac aztek or a vw beetle?

how cheap is it to turbocharge?

safc2 - $250
MBC - $30
used 360cc injectors - $100
walbro fuel pump & hotwire kit - $100
used 9b turbos - $500
used tt manifolds, plenum, piping & smics - $500
tt downpipe & flex section - $150
DIY single-shot catback - $150

and these are generous estimates. sometimes you can find people who are just looking to get rid of parts ASAP because they don't have room. if you have more cash, you can probably find used turbo upgrades for not much more (old dr500's, 13t's, 15g's, etc).

supercharger kits?

1. good luck finding them
2. if you do find them, do a bang-for-the-buck comparison to ANY turbocharger kit.
3. FAIL TO PROFIT?

I may not know much about superchargers but on this subject I'm quite knowledgeable. Eaton, which is the supercharger used in the Snake, CTS-V, ZR-1, Edelbrock systems and many others, do not make a twin screw (Lysholm) they are all roots based. Maybe a TVS model might look like a twin screw but that is where the similarity ends. I wish that you would stop misleading folks.

I have not denigrated you nor anyone else, if you think I have show me where. Through out this threat you have miss represented what I and, I'll take the liberty, what IBSORGN has said.

Appreciate the TT short parts list/cost but as IBSORGN said, its apples and oranges comparing used to new. I'm sure that a thrifty-minded person could cut a supercharger conversion cost down significantly using salvaged parts. As far as I know the only custom parts are the two adapters (TB and manifold). Please keep in mind that a TT conversion is not reflecting the inventor's premium. I know some have built their own adapters with a broad range of success.

Build my car like Top Fuel! come-on, I was merely pointing out that roots superchargers are used in their application not turbos. You can bet your last dollar if they felt that they could generate more power with turbos they sure as hell would. Maybe some day they will. I have no idea how much boost a turbo can create but, from what I read, it will probably need to exceed 75psi for them to switch.

Personally I don't give a hoot which way a person chooses to enhance their performance but telling readers that supercharging is a poor, costly and is a deem to fail upgrade is simply not true. I know that some failed or were unhappy supercharging but the same is true for TTs. It's really a matter of how much focus, energy and time the user is willing commit to, budget and performance objectives should be their decision.

Have you been reading what I as well as IBSORGN have written?
1) TK makes a SC kit
2) I have done price comparisions (although not to your liking)
3) I have succeeded

For me, and meaning no disrespect, without you having actual hands-on experience with supercharging a 3S it is difficult to give your comments any serious weight. It would be akin to taking swimming instructions from a person that can't swim. Folks like IBSORGN will always have my ear because they "walk the talk". Plus, having a meticulously written installation document as a reference ,can help one know just how deep and cold the water is going to be.

I feel that I have beaten this subject to death and I'm tired of responding. TT'n is a fine performance solution for these cars and SC'n has its place for those that like to go more unconventional. .

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I don't get why you guys choose to ignore the true cost comparisons. You can get a rebuilt set of upgraded turbos for $1000 or less. This is as good as new. The rest of the wear items you could also get new, but there is no point in getting non wear items such as the manifolds new.

The majority of the rest of the upgrades you guys like to point out you need for a turbo swap, such as injectors, engine management, and other fuel upgrades are necessary either way, so I am not sure why they are even brought up.

Even without trying hard at all a good TT swap with the important parts new would be $2000 or less.

[NickS VR4]

As it stands today, to get the most for your money, it's TT hands down.

[IPD]

please show me these "used" supercharger parts for 3/s of which you speak. after being a member of this community for 9 years, i have yet to see such a market exist--so either you know something i don't, or you're still talking out your ass.

again, SC isn't bad--it just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR THIS PLATFORM IN ITS CURRENT STATE OF PARTS AVAILABILITY.

[Blown3000]

please show me these "used" supercharger parts for 3/s of which you speak. after being a member of this community for 9 years, i have yet to see such a market exist--so either you know something i don't, or you're still talking out your ass.

again, SC isn't bad--it just DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR THIS PLATFORM IN ITS CURRENT STATE OF PARTS AVAILABILITY.

Are you able to comprehend what you read? I guess that I will have to draw you a picture. When I used the term "Custom Parts" ie., Throttle Body and Manifold Plenum Adapters would indicate that they would have to be fabricated (no production part available) all other parts such as Supercharger, SC snout & pulley, idler, remote brake reservoir, could be had from the junkyard. FMU, drive belt - new, some type of relief for hood - your choice, vacuum manifold block, throttle bracket and throttle cable extender could be fab'd or purchased. Miscellaneous hoses for fuel, water and vacuum adding. splicing and extending.

Thomas Knight solved all the engineering questions and I believe that if someone has a little imagination, can do simple fabrication, is patient and is willing to think outside the box can supercharge a 3S.
If any one could create a comprehensive list for a supercharging system built around salvage parts it would be IBSORGN. Try asking him.

BTW, I don't talk out my ass, I leave that up to 9 year experts like you!

[mb3000]

I would only justify the amount of fabrication you're talking about for a high hp build. Not a car that sits around 300's whp if that.

[mb3000]

Also, let me get you a price list for an easy 500awhp.

Turbos: Billet DR-650 turbo set (http://www.dynamicracing.com/3000gt-stealth/bolt-on-turbo-upgrades/billet-dr650-turbo-set)
Downpipe: Mitsubishi 3000GT 91-98 VR4 GTO Catback Exhaust Systems | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitsubishi-3000GT-91-98-VR4-GTO-Catback-Exhaust-Systems-/190500137841?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5ab16b71&vxp=mtr)
Injectors: 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/fs-evo-560s-cleaned-flowtested-536171/)
Stock Manifolds & precats: $250 shipped at the very most
Stock intercoolers: $200
Oil & water lines: $100
Safc2: $200
Fuel Pump: Approx $110.
Clutch of your choice: $500-700

Roughly $4678.99. Add shipping and lets say $4800. Subtract the parts that you would need anyways (downpipe, injectors, safc2, fuel pump, and clutch) for a total of $3165.

Only need mid 400AWHP? Go with some TurboBob 15g's for $1010 shipped. 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/15g-turbos-turbo-bob-spring-deal-535322/)
Add in the 15G price for everything, and you're at $1976 without the above mentioned mods that are necessary for ether sc or tc.

I wonder how much y'all have in your sc setups...


And the proof that it can be done:
1st test on the DR650 Billets - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/1st-test-dr650-billets-509888/)

[IPD]

precisely. and not only that, if you don't get the exact right tension of a SC, either the belt slips & you get piss for boost or the SC wears out too fast.

custom-fabbing that stuff isn't something your average tinkerer could successfully do. turbos, on the other hand....

[mb3000]

It seems I over estimated the value of the stock parts...

3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/stock-tt-parts-530401/)

[Blown3000]

Glad to have had the opportunity to show that Supercharging is a viable option for a 3S. Costs can vary greatly as well as your level of performance. The most key ingredient is imagination and a willingness to be unconventional. There are many folks that run superchargers on their vehicles but it takes a little time to find them. Through out this thread you can clearly see a real bigotry against supercharging, so much to the point that this forum looses its reason for being here, ie., exchange of ideas, information and encouragement, regardless of the upgrade. Best advice I can offer is to talk with people that have actual hands on experience and take the nay sayers with a grain salt as most merely parrot and embellish what they hear from other parrots.

I'm hoping to contact folks like IBSORGN and develop a realistic cost for a supercharger system based on a combination of new, used/rebuilt parts when appropriate and machinist time and materials cost for adaptors. Hopefully that will help to provide a better cost comparison against the most common TT build (the used parts swap).

[NickS VR4]

Glad to have had the opportunity to show that Supercharging is a viable option for a 3S. Costs can vary greatly as well as your level of performance. The most key ingredient is imagination and a willingness to be unconventional. There are many folks that run superchargers on their vehicles but it takes a little time to find them. Through out this thread you can clearly see a real bigotry against supercharging, so much to the point that this forum looses its reason for being here, ie., exchange of ideas, information and encouragement, regardless of the upgrade. Best advice I can offer is to talk with people that have actual hands on experience and take the nay sayers with a grain salt as most merely parrot and embellish what they hear from other parrots.

I'm hoping to contact folks like IBSORGN and develop a realistic cost for a supercharger system based on a combination of new, used/rebuilt parts when appropriate and machinist time and materials cost for adaptors. Hopefully that will help to provide a better cost comparison against the most common TT build (the used parts swap).

Here's the question you have to ask yourself... why are you modding the car? Are you looking for HP, or are you looking to be a one-man self-funded Research and Development team for the 3S platform? Why spend a lot more money for little gains when big gains can be had for less money?

Now if your goal is to be an R&D for the platform and create new tech, than I would hope you are in the manufacturing business and can profit from it, because it will cost you a lot of money and a lot of work for one-off parts with no support. If after you are done, you can then sell the setup to someone else, than that makes a little more sense.

Bottom line is, can you supercharge, sure, but for the cost/benefit, turbo is the way to go with this platform right now.

[Blown3000]

precisely. and not only that, if you don't get the exact right tension of a SC, either the belt slips & you get piss for boost or the SC wears out too fast.

custom-fabbing that stuff isn't something your average tinkerer could successfully do. turbos, on the other hand....

There you go again with these off the cuff remarks. Belt tension does not have to be exact. Your level of boost really dictates how tight the belt needs to be. Belt tension has to be just tight enough that the belt won't slip. The more ribs in the belt the less tension is needed. Unless you're a moron and crank the belt so execrably tight you will not wear out the snout bearnings.

Your right, your average tinkerer probably does not have a CNC machine so your options would be 1) draw-up your own plans, 2) buy plans or adapters from someone like Knight 3) communicate your needs to a machinist shop, and have a machinist cut the parts. Remember imagination and talk to folks that have done it!

[Blown3000]

here's the question you have to ask yourself... Why are you modding the car? Are you looking for hp, or are you looking to be a one-man self-funded research and development team for the 3s platform? Why spend a lot more money for little gains when big gains can be had for less money?

Now if your goal is to be an r&d for the platform and create new tech, than i would hope you are in the manufacturing business and can profit from it, because it will cost you a lot of money and a lot of work for one-off parts with no support. If after you are done, you can then sell the setup to someone else, than that makes a little more sense.

Bottom line is, can you supercharge, sure, but for the cost/benefit, turbo is the way to go with this platform right now.

how much experience to you have with supercharging? If your answer is none then you might need to do a little research on the subject before making these uninformed remarks.

[stealthee]

Proof has been shown, you refuse to see it.

[IPD]

Glad to have had the opportunity to show that Supercharging is a viable option for a 3S. Costs can vary greatly as well as your level of performance. The most key ingredient is imagination and a willingness to be unconventional. There are many folks that run superchargers on their vehicles but it takes a little time to find them. Through out this thread you can clearly see a real bigotry against supercharging, so much to the point that this forum looses its reason for being here, ie., exchange of ideas, information and encouragement, regardless of the upgrade. Best advice I can offer is to talk with people that have actual hands on experience and take the nay sayers with a grain salt as most merely parrot and embellish what they hear from other parrots.

I'm hoping to contact folks like IBSORGN and develop a realistic cost for a supercharger system based on a combination of new, used/rebuilt parts when appropriate and machinist time and materials cost for adaptors. Hopefully that will help to provide a better cost comparison against the most common TT build (the used parts swap).

negative, ghostrider. if this forum simply sat here and told every tom, dick and harry to just "go for it" regarding every mod idea: THEN we wouldn't have a reason for being here.

regarding belt-tension? after reading the entire thread on 3si about the dude attempting to triple-charge his 3/s, i'd say that yes--belt tension can be a legitimate problem. and this is a guy with far more willingness to "experiment" than your average 3/s owner--and he had a fair amout of skill to back it up.

i'm rather amused by all this. next thing you know, someone will pop in here & tell us that pouring a bag of sand into the intake is the best way to port/polish, and that we're all just "haters" because we call him an idiot.

[terrets]

i'm rather amused by all this. next thing you know, someone will pop in here & tell us that pouring a bag of sand into the intake is the best way to port/polish, and that we're all just "haters" because we call him an idiot.

I almost want to think he is a troll..

[Blown3000]

I was warned in numerous PMs that there are certain members that are TT bigots and will not carry on a meaningful discussion on any other forms of engine upgrading especially supercharging. Throughout this thread the most outspoken critics of supercharging have no hands-on experience yet pretend that they are some type of experts. These folks will not maintain a meaningful dialog other than to denigrate, berate, and humiliate those that have supercharging or wishing to consider the option.
When their comments are addressed they seem to give no weight to the response and simply criticize another aspect or turn juvenile as demonstrated in posts 56, 81, 83 etc. In all the posts from supercharging advocates, I have not read any denigration of turbo charging but yet their are a few that berate supercharging even to the expense of showing their ignorance.
Maybe it centers around the fact they dislike people that like to take the less traveled routes, think a little differently, or simply don't want a cookie cutter solution. Maybe they feel safe following a factory blueprint verses stepping into the dark not knowing what the outcome maybe.
I'm finished with this thread and conversing with these narrow minded people masquerading as experts and their groupies.

[IPD]

I was warned in numerous PMs that there are certain members that are TT bigots and will not carry on a meaningful discussion on any other forms of engine upgrading especially supercharging. Throughout this thread the most outspoken critics of supercharging have no hands-on experience yet pretend that they are some type of experts. These folks will not maintain a meaningful dialog other than to denigrate, berate, and humiliate those that have supercharging or wishing to consider the option.
When their comments are addressed they seem to give no weight to the response and simply criticize another aspect or turn juvenile as demonstrated in posts 56, 81, 83 etc. In all the posts from supercharging advocates, I have not read any denigration of turbo charging but yet their are a few that berate supercharging even to the expense of showing their ignorance.
Maybe it centers around the fact they dislike people that like to take the less traveled routes, think a little differently, or simply don't want a cookie cutter solution. Maybe they feel safe following a factory blueprint verses stepping into the dark not knowing what the outcome maybe.
I'm finished with this thread and conversing with these narrow minded people masquerading as experts and their groupies.

...or maybe...JUST MAYBE...the people who are so vehemently vocal against supercharging are vocalizing it for those absent masses who had tried that route, failed, and gave up on this platform entirely.

yeah. i'll take option C.

[stealthee]

Who else thinks Blown3000 is also ibsorgn?

They both have been shown proof that a TT conversion is not only less expensive, but more potent. They both call people supercharging bigots (absolutely hilarious), and they both have the taking my ball and going home attittude.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Who else thinks Blown3000 is also ibsorgn?

They both have been shown proof that a TT conversion is not only less expensive, but more potent. They both call people supercharging bigots (absolutely hilarious), and they both have the taking my ball and going home attittude.

lol he joined on 4-25-2012 just when the first guy bowed out and then starts posting the same crap a few days later. I think you nailed it.

Hey you can build a supercharger setup all you like, but to answer this thread, no its not worth it when it is so much easier and better to go with out stock type TT setup. Hell for the prices ibsorgn spent on the supercharger setup you could pickup an IPS Td05 kit with everything new and still come out ahead.

But that doesn't meet his laser beam of criteria, so I guess we are all wrong.

[stealthee]

Hell for his budget I could buy an entire VR4 and have it into the 11's including the cost of the car. Or I could find a DSM and have it easily in the 10's or even 9's including the cost of the car.

But hey what do we know? We are just bigots against superchargers and don't know anything at all because we tell people supercharging isn't worth it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Hell for his budget I could buy an entire VR4 and have it into the 11's including the cost of the car. Or I could find a DSM and have it easily in the 10's or even 9's including the cost of the car.

But hey what do we know? We are just bigots against superchargers and don't know anything at all because we tell people supercharging isn't worth it.

yeah but then it would be a junkyard build. It is not fair!!

[toddrs93]

lol he joined on 4-25-2012 just when the first guy bowed out and then starts posting the same crap a few days later. I think you nailed it.

Hey you can build a supercharger setup all you like, but to answer this thread, no its not worth it when it is so much easier and better to go with out stock type TT setup. Hell for the prices ibsorgn spent on the supercharger setup you could pickup an IPS Td05 kit with everything new and still come out ahead.

But that doesn't meet his laser beam of criteria, so I guess we are all wrong.

why not do both lol.

I have a guy who is dead set on doing 16g's WITH an eaton supercharger. I have tried a few times to talk him out of it and explained all the possible issues and outcomes but still, he wants me to do it. The car is here and the build has begun. I'll update when its all done.

[stealthee]

Even the Grand Prix guys who already have a supercharger don't do both. They get more power out of pulling the supercharger and putting a NA style intake on and going turbo than going twin charged.

[AudibleSilence]

how much experience to you have with supercharging? If your answer is none then you might need to do a little research on the subject before making these uninformed remarks.

Your car is going to sit forever, or it is going to blow up. That is your future.

[mb3000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCocbmg34mQ

[AudibleSilence]

^Funny enough, they make a TT kit for the GTO now :) He also lost power doing this.

[green-lantern]

He also lost power doing this.

Yep


I know several of people that have tried, they rang up thousands of dollars and sold the car for a unbelievable loss.

Good luck doing the very expensive route.

[toddrs93]

Even the Grand Prix guys who already have a supercharger don't do both. They get more power out of pulling the supercharger and putting a NA style intake on and going turbo than going twin charged.

I know it, but he insists on it lol.