Emanage Ultimate tuning and maps thread

[terrets]

Since we dont have one of these I figured Id start one.

This thread is for anything to do with tuning with EMU. It would be greatly appreciated if you could post up maps and info on your car.

Id also like this thread to be available for people with questions on EMU and possibly have a starting point for new users.


So, anyone have maps you can post up? Help me get started. :)... Also, I dont know where to start. Im running 1000cc injectors and tuning with a MAP. I would also like to run E85 but that can wait.. Ill start going through the EMU thread on 3si..I love learning :).

[jbuhrman]

PM bboyalan with this link

[dodgers_fan]

Yes pm alan, im sure he has a closet full of maps and logs.

[B-Man]

After tuning with MAP for over a year now, I seriously suggest keeping some sort of MAS.

Grayson has posted Airflow maps in several places to get started but you should make your own with your mods by using the sampling feature.

There's already been a few threads with tons of suggestions. Not sure if anyone has successfully tuned an EMU without issues faking the MAS.

[B-Man]

I've attached a couple of logs to try and keep an EMU thread going for once. This is in the middle of me tuning so there are lean/rich spots but I wanted to illustrate the throttle dependency issues I always mention.

In the 2nd pull ~13psi file, when I stab the throttle, around 3660, you can see that the AFR dips low.

In the 2nd ~14psi file, a similar situation at 4740, a 3% throttle difference, and also at 10*F AIT.

I don't have a log of it, if I hold ~0psi it stays right around 14.0afr.

I've already compensated for this quite a bit, but I'm obviously not there.

14psi feels pretty good after running wastegate at 10psi all winter.

[terrets]

Hey thanks guys!..

B-Man - Well the air filter as of now will be right on the turbo. Id have to either make my own makeshift intake, or make a spot right before the throttle body. Also, what turbos are you running and whats your setup? It seems you dont build boost very early..

Think it would be okay to run EMU in the mode that it just tries to keep a constant AFR? Just to run some half ass runs and get a base.

[B-Man]

Hey thanks guys!..

B-Man - Well the air filter as of now will be right on the turbo. Id have to either make my own makeshift intake, or make a spot right before the throttle body. Also, what turbos are you running and whats your setup? It seems you dont build boost very early..

Think it would be okay to run EMU in the mode that it just tries to keep a constant AFR? Just to run some half ass runs and get a base.

13Ts with the MAFless EMU. Practically full boost at 3200rpm isn't bad. The Halman isn't helping.

Do you mean the autotune feature? I ran that and it does it's job, but you have to help it a lot for a good tune.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

the auto tune really needs to be used with caution if you are using the i/j accleration map. The i/j correction can make the emu think you are too rich when first acclerating and it can pull a ton of fuel, destroying the tune there.

Besides that problem the auto works great to quickly rough in a WOT tune. I like to start with a low correction max like .5 or 1%. It is best to start at about 2000 RPM in 3rd and go WOT all the way to redline. After 2 or 3 of these you will be really close.

I really only use the auto tune for light cruising and > 3 PSI. Using it for part throttle between cruising and 3 PSI doesn't seem to work well. I'm not running narrowbands FYI.

I believe the wideband latency or the amount of time between what's actually happening in the cylinder and the time the wideband reads and proccesses the value is too slow to handle part throttle well. Narrowbands actually do better at this because of their design and the fact that they are so close to the head.

[terrets]

B-Man - Bahhaha I was looking at milliseconds. /facepalm. My mistake :)

Thanks for the info Forest...Third tops out at 120ish, correct?


And how about getting it started the first time? This is a fresh rebuild and Id like it running somewhat good when I do the initial breakin.

[B-Man]

Forrest is absolutely right about the autotune feature. That's basically what I experienced with it. Stab the throttle and it messes up a whole block of your tune.

As for fresh startup, I'd try and run with a MAF until engine is broken in. If you're already set up for MAFless, try running stock injectors with Grayson or somebody elses Airflow Map.

[B-Man]

Anybody remember where the standard sensor starts getting out of range? I know I've seen it, but can't seem to find it again.

I'm finding 3 bar (43.5psi) but I remember it being much lower.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

it is 3 bar, but 1 bar is used for vacuum. The "limit" should be around 29 PSI then, but AFAIK trevor was running up to 34 PSI on his. The EMU seems to read a bit low.

[BlackStealth]

it is 3 bar, but 1 bar is used for vacuum. The "limit" should be around 29 PSI then, but AFAIK trevor was running up to 34 PSI on his. The EMU seems to read a bit low.
Greddy's Pressure sensor is 4 bar: 3 bar of boost and 1 bar in vacuum. I confirmed this with an air compressor.

[SlayerStealth]

I've got issues getting mine running right :shake2: Can ya'll plz help me? I've got twin 16g's, EMU w/ boomslang, AEM AFR, and PTE680's. I followed the 3si wiki page and it seems to be alright, I/j before: 360 w/ 0.50 lag time I/j after: 680 w/ 0.96 lag time

Idles at 14.7, but when i tap the throttle, the car leans out almost like its going to choke out, then revs normally and stays just slightly rich ( maybe 13.5 ish). This also happens if im going from saying 2000 rpm to 3000 rpm, but not as severe. Feels like the EMU is not reacting fast enough to the throttle plate opening.. Thanks!

PS: Have the MAF in as well as the 680 injectors if that matters, and i never got a base fuel trim map for stock injectors :eek4:

[B-Man]

Where is your MAF located? Stock location or right in front of the TB?

Sounds like you have it in front of the TB and you need to adjust your 'Acceleration I/J Adj.' maps.

Or just a simple boost leak

[3000GT MR]

I came up with this idea and map after about a 12 pack. It feels so smooth almost like stock. You can tune much more fine and accurate with less calculations and guess work from the EMU. Keep in mind this works best for my car and could for others. I went ahead and zeroed my I/Jmap 2 for WOT it pulls alot of fuel because of my meth. Your going to have to zero out I/J map 1. Just input your settings and give it a whirl. Im Td05 so you may have an issue if you build boost before 2k RPM.

Directions:
1. must be in stage 3
2. use my map but CHANGE to your specific car (injector size, lag time, ect.)
3. zero both I/J maps
4.change a/f to your cars liking (if desired)
5. auto tune using table being very careful NOT to boost.
6. When you get I/J 1 map where you like it change auto tune map select to I/J map 2
7. IMPORTANT change the scaling of A/F map to match I/J map2. Also change A/F for WOT as desired.
8. turn off auto tune when complete.
Disclaimer:
I dont take responsibility for any damage that may occur. This has worked great on my car. use at own risk

change file type to .emu2

[terrets]

Thanks man, what size injectors do you have?

[3000GT MR]

I run 650s with pressure increased a few. If that file doesn't load let me know I can email it.

[terrets]

Okay thanks. I should be getting around to messing with emu by June... lol

[B-Man]

I'll have to look at the emu2 file when I get home, but sounds like you're doing exactly what I am, just using the auto-tune feature. Glad to see it's working.

EDIT: Nope, you're not doing anything close to me. Interesting idea though. Good way to get awesome resolution. I'd be slightly concerned about what the EMU does above 4500rpm in vacuum (probably off throttle since any throttle at that rpm would get you into positive pressure).

[3000GT MR]

I'll have to look at the emu2 file when I get home, but sounds like you're doing exactly what I am, just using the auto-tune feature. Glad to see it's working.

EDIT: Nope, you're not doing anything close to me. Interesting idea though. Good way to get awesome resolution. I'd be slightly concerned about what the EMU does above 4500rpm in vacuum (probably off throttle since any throttle at that rpm would get you into positive pressure).

Yea i have countless amounts of logs ive used to best suit my needs. i never really get above 3700rpm in vacuum and the stock ecu cuts fuel till 15-1600rpm when off the gas. So far its been the best and smoothest tune ive ever had in the last 1.5 years with emu. It transitions very smooth between the two maps.
EMU will do a little guess work for a couple hundred RPM above 4500 if need be based on the previous cells

[terrets]

Anyone have any maps without a MAF? Im getting closer to getting the car together :D.

[B-Man]

Go to 3stech.org. Grayson has an output map hosted there. He seemed pretty adamant about not sharing the link elsewhere, so I won't post it here.

[terrets]

Thanks B.

[terrets]

I have a question about wiring..My EMU is currently at 2.5. Do I have to disconnect all the wires and wire up only whats shown here:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-9/1210778/Stage3.gif

Or is this in addition to what Stage 1 and 2 are wired as?

edit: After looking at it further, I see the little colors on pins 101, 70, 64, 26, 25 on the ECU side. Does that mean only those are needed?

[bboyalan]

I just completed a fellow member's MAFless tune on Thursday night before he drove back almost 500 miles home for break after finals. We spoke on the phone for an update, and he last reported 160 miles at half tank on E85; not bad!

The quick run down is EMU Stage 3, PTE1000, E85, and custom TD04HL-19T's w/ 7* clip

Here is a short, impulsive video of the test drive to include idle, cruise, accel, and WOT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8hoKdo2-gI


Here is the last update for a little while. It is a second gear pull hindered by blowout with 68% calculated DC and 22*
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Elliot_93VR4/f121b13b.png
Third still shows 22lbs lol.

This was all done on a hacked MAS, no temperature corrections, and no tracking :D It was an enjoyable and improved drive for me. Obviously only time will tell, but I can surely say that resolution and precision were key for the positive experience.

[terrets]

So where are the MAPs? :p

They would help greatly once my motors broken in, as I want E85 and Im running 1000cc.

[bboyalan]

Haha sorry, many personal hours were put into this paid tune, so I will not make it public or shared. Besides, every car is different and should be tuned likewise; not OTS IMO. I only posted the above to show that everything went pretty smoothly for the ~3.5 hours of road [test drive] time with very minor tweaking.

I should hopefully have another done soon after Jessie "dodgers_fan" drives down :DevilSmile: EMU Stage 3, PTE780, DR Billet 650R, and 18psi on pump//22psi on meth.

[B-Man]

Anybody use 2-step have setting you suggest to start with?

[terrets]

I know blindmist has 2-step set up. But he hasnt been on here in a while. Want me to text him and ask about his?

[B-Man]

If you don't think it'd bother him.

[terrets]

lol. He said his isnt set up correctly at all...I think I saw how to 2-step somewhere in the EMU thread on 3si...

[3000GT MR]

Anybody use 2-step have setting you suggest to start with?

Depends on traction, turbos, and set up.mines at 5300 works best for me.

[bboyalan]

I was able to complete another MAFless tune as previously mentioned. The quick run down is EMU Stage 3, PTE780, AEM W/M, and Billet DR-650's. All aspects of driving were tested over many hours again. Likewise, this was also on a retained factory MAS, no temperature corrections, and no tracking.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Jessie_TT/d245aa7f.png
20psi by 3.4k :eek: The rest is already being looked into. Also, this is only 60+DC with conservative timing.

The car is an absolute blast to drive! You simply push the pedal in to go faster lol. We only need to toss in the Forge billet wastegates for solid boost control, and everything else should be good until something else gives in. Other than that, Jessie has a sleeper panda Stealth as a reliable and powerful daily driver :bigthumb: Once again, great turbos Matt.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx0ebGvH3sk

//edit//
//edit//
Jessie and I went for a tuning session around 5A before MOD yesterday. This was after the meet held at his house. I suggested a 1:3 new solution, and that is what he is using now. Although he was not "allowed" to dyno, his car is quite a little monster currently "tapped-out" at ~73DC.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Jessie_TT/b48f4de9.png


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uemZDeK-a7I

[B-Man]

I was able to complete another MAFless tune as previously mentioned. The quick run down is EMU Stage 3, PTE780, AEM W/M, and Billet DR-650's. All aspects of driving were tested over many hours again. Likewise, this was also on a retained factory MAS, no temperature corrections, and no tracking.

:scratch:

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

FYI, I had my 2 step setup like this:

4500 RPM
-10 degrees timing

This built 5 PSI of boost almost instantly. I got a 1.75 60FT the 2nd pass. Logs show 4500 held until the car started rolling then up to 5200 before I let the clutch out totally where it came back down to 4500 before accelerating normally.

SUPER easy to launch. Zero bog at all. With a bit more RPM I would've most likely been able to get in the 1.6x range or at least 1.70. Best mod ever for racing.

[B-Man]

Awesome! Been meaning to set up two-step. How many V.S. pulses until it disengages?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Awesome! Been meaning to set up two-step. How many V.S. pulses until it disengages?

I have it set to 1 or something like that.

[bboyalan]

:scratch:
lol I was wondering if someone would pick up on that. He is going to hack up a different MAS, so his is currently tucked next to the firewall above the WW/Meth reservoir+pump as seen here:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/270400_917002642437_24614381_43952207_7607748_n.jp g

[B-Man]

Forest, does your tack and afrs go nuts when you're two-stepping?

[i3igpete]

my tach misses revs and drops when i 2step

[B-Man]

With your AEM? I'm worried about the ECU receiving the wrong RPM.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Forest, does your tack and afrs go nuts when you're two-stepping?

yup. tach is nuts because the ptu supplies the tach signal. the emanage or aem is dropping ignition signals before they get to the ptu so the spark will not fire and thus your lower rev limit is engaged. The ecu knows what rpm you are because the ignition cut is after the ecu and the ecu goes by the cas anyway.

The afr is nuts because you momentarily have random cylinders not firing.

Totally normal and nothing to worry about.

[B-Man]

Thanks.

[B-Man]

Did any of you with two step set up on EMU have problems with it activating while moving? I think I may have a setting wrong. Like I'm setting rev-limiter instead of two step.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Did any of you with two step set up on EMU have problems with it activating while moving? I think I may have a setting wrong. Like I'm setting rev-limiter instead of two step.

make sure the vss setting is on 1 pulse.

[B-Man]

Check. I'll take a screenshot of my settings when I get a chance.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Check. I'll take a screenshot of my settings when I get a chance.

yeah let me know I can grab a screen shot if needed.

[B-Man]

Attached should be a screen shot of my ignition settings.

[B-Man]

Aww fuck me, I think 4500 is supposed to be in Start not IGN cut rpm......

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

correct

[bboyalan]

I just wanted to add on Jessie's behalf that his balancing tube kicks ass with the MAFless setup. If anyone is experiencing surging, then this is a modification worth looking into.

[terrets]

Balancing tube?

[bboyalan]

Balancing tube?
I did not even notice the surging at all when finishing his 24psi tune, but that may have been partially attributed to lack of sleep at 5A :w00t:

...all in all, i think it was well worth the money and time spent.

made the kit using parts from lowes motorsports. :lol:
http://tapatalk.com/mu/441deefb-f383-c1df.jpg
http://tapatalk.com/mu/441deefb-f3e4-06b9.jpg

[KeithMac]

Someone on GTOOC has come up with a different cure for suge, basically a valve that opens before the throttlebody to vent the pressure pulses at part throttle, hard to explain but worth a look!. I`ve just encountered it after the FMIC install and it`s a ballache to say the least!.

[stealthII]

I did not even notice the surging at all when finishing his 24psi tune, but that may have been partially attributed to lack of sleep at 5A :w00t:

Yup. Ray P's balancing tube trick worked for my surging issues as well. That surging was annoying as hell.

[terrets]

Single turbo here :p

[terrets]

So I got around to starting my rebuild finally. Im running no MAF and no stock 02's. Ive got Greysons MAP map on the EMU. It starts fine and runs good ~1200 RPM up until its warm. Then it doesnt want to idle...it dies. It will run fine with throttle, even just a touch. My A/F gauge is reading ~12 the whole time. The Target A/F (set to 14.7) in EMU doesnt seem to be changing the Inj Adj map at all...Its 0's all across. I tried changing it manually to -5, -8, -10, -15, and even -20 but it seemed to have no effect on the AFR but it did change the car sound so obviously it did something..

Also the ignition timing is 100+ without throttle and with its ~7, is this normal?

Could it be the ECU? I know its possible from replacing caps...heh, but I dont have another to try, except a N/A ECU...And I know I update the EMU to firmware 2.20 last fall so I figured it doesnt need it again unless from sitting?

I have logs if that would help...

Im single turbo with stock injectors for now..LC-1 02 controller..

I also have a coolant leak ugh. :)

Please help :(. I want this on the road, even though Im waiting to hear back from the DMV, should be fairly soon...

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

post up your map file. If you are using grayson's map it will not change the map at idle. I had very bad luck with the target afr at low throttle positions anyway.

ignition timing won't read right through through the emu on the latest firmware.

If you add to the map does it make a difference? You may have it wired for stage 2.5 or the jumpers set wrong in the emu.

[terrets]

Its stage 3 and Im positive jumpers and wiring is correct...Ill get maps and log up when I get home..Could you post yours so I can set my idle unless your not on stock injectors. Thanks

[B-Man]

I don't know how updated his airflow map is, but NG a few years ago, he said the idle is wrong and will cause such a low HZ reading the ECU will ignore the 'MAS'. Post up your map and one of us can fix it.

[terrets]

Heres my maps. Greyson 2.20 is the one I started with. Then I changed up the A/F, Inj Adj, and Airflow map a touch. Keep in mind I changed the Inj Adj map anywhere from -5 to -20. I also included a log..

3sgto wouldnt let me attach them so I put them on Google Docs:
startup log: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B89oGwC2rI9cNDc1NjlkOTctYjRiNy00ZDcwLWI4O DMtZDQ4MDFhZWYzZDI5&hl=en_US
startup log:https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B89oGwC2rI9cZjQ4ODU0ZjEtOGVlZi00MjdkLWI5N WItZGQ0YmZiODU3OTk5&hl=en_US

[KeithMac]

To be fair i wouldn`t post up his map as he`s alreay asked people not to post it outside the website, might be an idea to pull it down before you get into bother??. I`d be f**cked off if I`d shared my hard work and specifically asked for it not to be posted all over the internet..

[B-Man]

*grumble grumble* I may not agree with it but KeithMac is right. Take down the links.

Terrets, I pm'd a link to an updated version. This is from Grayson, so I'm not to credit for it.

[terrets]

Ya I totally forgot. Taken down... Thanks B-Man

Although this map doesnt look much different...Besides the Accl is for sure different.

[B-Man]

Accel? I only changed the airflow output map around idle

[terrets]

Okay.

[B-Man]

Well, that's what I meant to do anyways.

[Monster Stealth]

Subscribed. I hopefully will have some input soon. I am getting my garage back this week and plan on at a minimum getting my car to idle and cruise.

[bboyalan]

We will be tossing a new Synapse Synchronic DV in place of the HKS this Friday. It should hopefully completely eliminate the part-throttle surge in "push" configuration. I will post a review on the product afterward.

Also, I forget to share our random encounter on the freeway on the day of MOD hehe :DevilSmile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uemZDeK-a7I

I plan on tuning my MX-5 on MAFless as well when it gets to that point [soon!]

[stealthII]

*grumble grumble* I may not agree with it but KeithMac is right. Take down the links.

Terrets, I pm'd a link to an updated version. This is from Grayson, so I'm not to credit for it.

Hey B-Man. Can you send me the same link? I have the one from 3stech. But I would like to cross reference what what I have. Thanks!

Rich

[B-Man]

Hmm, I thought I've sent it to you before. Anyways, I'll send you a PM with it.

[stealthII]

Hmm, I thought I've sent it to you before. Anyways, I'll send you a PM with it.

Thanks man. You might have. ;) This doesn't look much different than the 2.20 map w/ the exception of a couple of cells.

[B-Man]

That's all that's supposed to be different, just idle.

[terrets]

So I got a chance to test this out. Well it was going well and seeming a little rough but I think thats because of the solid motor mounts. Well it was at ~800 rpm and I decided I would change the inj adj to see if itd be a little better. Well I think I fouled out the plugs. :(. I started it again but it was running real rough. I pulled the front three plugs, they were black as night lol. AFR was about 12.4-12.8 the first while..

Ive been thinking, it probably has something to do with where my turbo/airfilter is placed right behind the radiator. Im going to try pulling the plugs and sanding them and then adding a temp map also.


Heres a log for anyone to look at if you think you can change anything..

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B89oGwC2rI9cMjg0OTk5MjAtY2NhNS00NjM4LTliY 2YtOTg5NzVlYzhhZTVi&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

[B-Man]

Is that the temp corrections that Pete calculated?

[terrets]

I dont think soo..Removing it though :)

[B-Man]

lol, he never said anything about sharing. I just wanted to let you know, that's only applicable to those of us who have locked in air temp sensors. You need to look more at the differences in adjustment between temperatures, depending on where you locked it at, or where you consider you '0' point.

[terrets]

I have it about 1.5 feet before the throttle body. A GM IAT wired to the stock location..

Could you explain to me a bit more what you mean? I understand depending on where my IAT sensor is depends how I want the map, but I figured Id try a base one first...Do you mean my zero point as the temperature I first really have my tune set at?

It still wont idle once its warm. It seems a little better. I also put new plugs in... AFR ~13 this time.. I really think it has to do with my ignition timing...But if I change values in the ign map it doesnt really do anything..And it wouldnt run if my timing was wrong right? Im positive its correct :P. I suppose I could try it without the air temp map...another day. Think having open downpipe does anything? I dont think it wouldnt let it idle...

I got my registration Woottt!. Plates will be here in 9-13 days :D Giggidyyy.

[B-Man]

What I mean by locked IAT is, some people feed a resistor to the ECU for the IAT so it sees a constant air temp and let the EMU do all the correction.

What I meant by 'zero point' is where your I/J maps are where you want them before any temp correction.

It could run if your timing was a tooth off, but it would always die, not just when warm.

By 'won't idle' do you mean the idle bounces? dies? low? high?

[terrets]

Okay....Well it idles around ~800-900 when its warming up then starts dropping towards 700 and chills a little over that for a bit and itll die once my temp hits 175ish. And the temp doesnt really change either. It just dies, almost like it floods.. I mean it bounces a little but its not bad, I figured I would have that.

[B-Man]

Try raising the idle. ~800-900 is way too low for cold idle.

I was thinking about this during a longer drive and thought of this:

The IAC is trying to adjust to keep your idle at a reasonable rpm. To do this, it opens to allow more air to bypass the closed throttle body. Normally this extra air would be measured by the MAS, but since we don't have a MAS there is no way of seeing the extra air. This would explain bad AFRs at idle. I haven't looked at your logs, but are you flooding out?

[terrets]

Do I raise idle with the little screw on the throttle body or by the peddle? It was running a ~12 AFR and after using the modified airflow output map, it was more like ~13.1.

[B-Man]

Yup, loosen the BISS screw.

[B-Man]

FYI, I have the opposite problem. Car will start, then if I don't keep my foot on the gas, will stall. AFR ~13.0. After warming up completely, it'll idle ~16.5.

[terrets]

What should AFR be at idle?

[Monster Stealth]

Yup, loosen the BISS screw.

Do not forget to put the car into idle adjustment mode.

Idle Speed Adjustment - 3SI Wiki (http://www.3si.org/wiki/index.php/Idle_Speed_Adjustment)

I am in the same boat as terrets, my idle is too low and my AFR's are too rich. I am going to raise the idle and start playing with the injector lag time.

[Monster Stealth]

What should AFR be at idle?

Stoich is ideal, so 14.7:1

[terrets]

Okay, but it used to idle before the rebuild, would that have to do with the bigger pistons, or just my removal of the MAS?

[B-Man]

Could be both

[B-Man]

You don't have your AFR hooked up to your EMU?

[terrets]

I have my wideband to it. And a gauge.

[B-Man]

Why is it reading 10 for the entire log?

[KeithMac]

If you adjust the BISS to get the idle higher the MAP value will change as a result so the tune should adapt to suite.

[terrets]

Im not sure but I set the output from the LC-1 controller to output wideband readings instead of narrowband. But when I was changing it on the pc, I would program it but then when I go back to that tab it would reset it to narrowband..I also have the EMU set to read between 7.35-22 for the LC-1. Im not on a pc right now, but doesn't the reading say that its reading voltage? Lol I thought it was between 0 and 5 volts...Unless I have my two input options switched..

I guess I could try splicing the EMU and gauge wire together since voltage is the same on parallel connections...

My tune doesn't change at all KeithMac (Without touching the BISS)

I also got rid of my cruise control, and now that I think of it, it may be because there is a tiny amount of slack in the cable..?

[B-Man]

Are you using the analog 0-5V output of the LC-1 into your EMU? I'm using a PLX, but it looks like the LC-1 has two analog outs, one to fake a narrowband, another 0-5V out.

[terrets]

Im using the narrowband analog wire...But these LC-1 outputs are programmable so I programmed that output to mimic the other output. Just the simple 0-5V output....Unless it isnt holding the program..

[B-Man]

Im using the narrowband analog wire...But these LC-1 outputs are programmable so I programmed that output to mimic the other output. Just the simple 0-5V output....Unless it isnt holding the program..

Your setting look ok from the vehicle profile you posted. I'd imagine your LC-1 isn't set up correctly, but again, I don't have one, or have used one. Politely RTFM

[terrets]

lol I did. And I followed the directions to program it. My only worry is that when I program the output then switch the tab to the other output and back, it shows that it went back to manufacture settings...

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LC-1_Manual.pdf

[B-Man]

Are you hitting the program button before flipping tabs?......

[terrets]

Are you hitting the program button before flipping tabs?......

Yes! haha

[B-Man]

no idea, man, flip wires?

[terrets]

Ya Ill check if I need a firmware update and do that also. Then I wont have to worry about it lol

[terrets]

Well I switched the wire...It did actually change the INJ map before I did this! I was all psyched. And then it quit altering. I have no idea why, but its pissing me off...

[B-Man]

Changed the ING map? Are you using the autotune feature?

[terrets]

No, Inj 1 map. Not sure what you mean by autotune, but its set up so it will adjust the inj 1 map according to the target A/F map...The thing is it never did it before, and it only did it for a bit...

[B-Man]

By autotune, I mean target A/F. I would suggest using that as little as possible.

[terrets]

Well I need something to help get me started, doesnt closed loop ECU run it really rich?

[B-Man]

Mmmmm, not really. Not on stock injectors anyways. You can adjust I/J maps by hand, you know :p

[terrets]

lol I know this :D...

[KeithMac]

Best bet is to do a long drive while datalogging, then take an hour to review it and build a new map, I do most of my tuning on a night, no reason to rush things..

[terrets]

So I took the car out for a drive today..It doesnt want to idle..But it doesnt seem to have as much power as it used to, especially in low RPMs. I understand Im not going to be spooling nearly as soon as with the 9bs but it still seems weak...and Im pretty sure its running on all six, its sounds alright...Im going to check compression and probably spark. I really need an exhaust, straight 3 inch downpipe is LOUD :lol:

Here are some logs, think you could check them out? Thanks

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B89oGwC2rI9cMDU0YzU0ODItZmI1My00NTk2LWI5Y TAtM2JmODMxYjJmZjhk&hl=en_US
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B89oGwC2rI9cODBiZTk3ZjYtYzUzZS00OWY0LWI0M DEtZGRiMDlhYjFhZGM5&hl=en_US

[B-Man]

360cc?

[B-Man]

lol, looks like you have the same problem I do. At 3000rpm, you increase the throttle from 0% to ~19% and it takes ~.7seconds before you get any fuel. Can you feel it when you add some throttle?

You can see a related problem at timestamp 96.28 on the first log (drive2.lg2). Increasing throttle fairly quickly (~3%/10msec) and you have 19.0 afr at -0.9psi (assuming you worked out the bugs with your wbo2, which looks to be so)

[B-Man]

Even worse: 125.44sec: 5.4psi 100%throttle 18.1afr......You're just not getting the fuel to spool.

I really wish the log viewer for EMU wasn't so shitty.

[terrets]

I guess that could be it...Yes Im on 360cc..I put the 4in exhaust on but that didnt seem to help with anything. Its still super loud hah.

Does my timing look normal? I also am going to check my timing. But EMU still is not changing the INJ map....Do you have a link to the 2.20 firmware? I got the software fine. But I looked all through the 3si EMU thread and cant find the actually firmware update. I joined the yahoo groups and Im waiting for a conformation. Also found another site hosting but they only had up to 1.16 firmware..hmf.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

use the version info in the menu to check, but your firmware should be up to date if you software is. i don't think it lets you mix versions.

[B-Man]

I guess that could be it...Yes Im on 360cc..I put the 4in exhaust on but that didnt seem to help with anything. Its still super loud hah.

Does my timing look normal? I also am going to check my timing. But EMU still is not changing the INJ map....Do you have a link to the 2.20 firmware? I got the software fine. But I looked all through the 3si EMU thread and cant find the actually firmware update. I joined the yahoo groups and Im waiting for a conformation. Also found another site hosting but they only had up to 1.16 firmware..hmf.


Newest EMU firmware cannot log timing correctly.

2.20: http://www.greddy.com/upload/file/Ultimate220.EXE

When you connect with this software it'll ask you to update your firmware.

[terrets]

Thanks..


SOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Running on 4 cylinders. I dont know if the top coil pack is dead or loose wires..Probably dead.. :lol: /facepalm. Unless its the PTU, anyone have an idea?

[bboyalan]

I would begin by ohm-testing your primaries and secondaries working your way to the PTU.

[terrets]

Well I tested for voltage on both leads to the pack and its reading above 13 so Im sure its the pack itself :)

[B-Man]

Anyone try to use the MAF change feature to run an Evo MAF?

[bboyalan]

Anyone try to use the MAF change feature to run an Evo MAF?
There was a member/owner in Europe [Finland IIRC] who incorporated the VIII MAS on his setup using an EMU. He "calibrated" it with the typical corrections which can be done by either throttle or airflow ranges.

[B-Man]

Right, I was looking in to doing it that way when I stumble across this gem:

Used when changing the airflow meter. Select the
new airflow meter type

Page 12: http://www.stealth316.com/misc/emanage_ultimate_operation_man.pdf

Looking more into it:

The EManage has a very handy feature for doing so. In the engine setup you have the option of choosing "Airflow change to". That means, the EManage automatically scales the new AFM output to match the old AFM. Due to the vastly different signal characteristics of different AFM systems you can only choose to replace an AFM within its own "family". So if you have a hot wire sensor, you can only choose another hot wire sensor as replacement, same goes for frequency based karmann sensors an speed-density pressure sensors. E.g. if you have an SR20DET and want to use the popular Infinity G35 AFM you simply choose VQ35.

There are several 4g63 options:

4g63
4g63(1-5)
4g63(6-8)
4g63(9-)

I'm assuming the first is DSM, then the rest are Evo with the generation next to it. Could be a really easy way to run an Evo Maf.

[bboyalan]

Yeah, I also saw those options and arrived at the same conclusion. It does not hurt to give it a try, but the other method does not require much more effort either. Any particular reason that you are considering it now?

[B-Man]

Sick of issues with MAFless

[bboyalan]

Ah, I am sorry to hear that =/ Do you mind sharing what ails you? You might have mentioned it before, but I do not recall specifically what has been going on.

[B-Man]

I've made a couple threads about it. Weather variability and load variability within cells. I tried using two maps (one rpm vs pressure, one rpm vs throttle) and it's still not where I want it for a daily driver.

[KeithMac]

How have you set it up? what sensors are you using?.

I`m running PTE 1200`s "Mafless" and it`s great, starts first turn of the key, good stoich cruise and repeatability under WOT.

I`ve gone the route of mounting a GM/ AEM sensor in the front right of the engine bay (to avoid heatsoak) and feeding that signal to the Mitsu ECU, also kept stock baro correction..

I calculated my own Karman Hz map from scratch using only 1 load row and built it from there, then fine tuned IJMap1.

[B-Man]

Greddy pressure sensor using Grayson's airflow output map.
I have a GM IAT mounted in the intake tube between the bubble and filter going to the EMU and ECU
Fixed Baro
Using 680s

I've posted logs/setup in this thread and the other thread I started.

[bboyalan]

I just read one of your older threads Brian. That was interesting. I preach accepting the good with the bad since getting it perfect would take God-knows-how-long, but I can understand the oddities getting at you.

My hacked MAS is tucked under the fuse box for retained factory IAT/BARO. I also tuned from scratch like the two 3/S that were done prior by me. Here are some old plots of mine on MAFless "Stage 2+" with NO injector control:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/407171_10100199196625407_24614381_45590223_2146507 376_n.jpg

[x]
You can see my "lean spool" for the first few pounds hehe :p

Video of latter plot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpuRL7ZD9oU

[B-Man]

Are you doing injector sizing using the airflow map?

Is your first gear super lean?

How does that lean spot in (what I'm assuming is) your 2nd gear shift not feel terrible?

I'm not trying to get record breaking numbers and this is a daily driver, so putting a MAS back isn't killer, especially since I still have all the wiring in place to do so.

[bboyalan]

Yessir and ditto! That is why I tuned somewhat conservatively with sub-20* and 11.5-11:1. I just recently made adjustments throughout my entire map for a suspected change in content at my local station.

[bboyalan]

I just saw your edited post now.

Is your first gear super lean?
I usually nail 17+psi in first, but that gear on this particular run was progressing toward 87% throttle. I am also on Pump-E85. It feels fine as can be seen in the video above.


How does that lean spot in (what I'm assuming is) your 2nd gear shift not feel terrible?
It actually feels fine and is hardly noticeable since it is only for a small 3psi window.

[B-Man]

I can't see youtube at work so that's why I can't tell given the data.

Looking at a recent log, I think something is wrong. I'm using 680 injectors and at ~70% Input Duty Cycle, I'm outputting ~68%.........
I'm running almost no correction.

At ~15psi and 5k rpm I'm showing 1700Hz Airflow output, which looks correct/close to me. Boost limiter cut is ~1800@5k rpm (to avoid 100% duty cycle issue with EMUs)

I can't seem to attach files at work either. I'll have to add the file when I get home.

[bboyalan]

Are you using their injector adapter? Mine was apparently DOA which is precisely why I am venturing forth on S2+ for now lol.

Your numbers do not seem so far-fetched IMO. In that same cell area, I am outputting 13xx with 780's and reach sub-80 DC.

My 91+Meth tune for Jessie's B650 car was 11xx in that same cell for comparison [I have his injectors now]. That was at mid-50 reaching low-70 DC.

[B-Man]

You mean the CEL adapter? Yes.

You're using airflow map to do injector sizing. I was trying to do injector sizing with the INJ1 map to keep stock timing.

[bboyalan]

With those sized injectors, why not just accept the slight advancement? The car will probably feel better all-around. I have done 660's without much issue on Pump-91. Check it out:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Cho_TT/9d93b43c.jpg
Actual non-skewed TIMA numbers from Hybrid software.

[B-Man]

lol, can't see image at work. I'm willing to accept it as long as I understand what's going on. Why is the airflow map so far off basically doing the injector correction for me?

[bboyalan]

Haha talk about restricted! =P Are you asking about your numbers? I do not think it is that far off, but Idk what everything else looks like.

The closest data that I have relevant to yours is a WRX 13T Stealth that I did on an EMB+gutted MAS. At 17psi/5.1k, the data showed 2.7k Hz input with 1.7k Hz output on Pump-91 and RC550's.

[B-Man]

Ok, what I'm trying to say is that the airflow map is supposed to be for 360cc injectors. I'm running 680cc injectors but have almost no correction at the injectors. So is the airflow map scaled for 680s? Or is something wrong?

[bboyalan]

Oh no, I highly doubt that it is accounting for 680's if your map is intended for "stock output" and is primarily done on I/J. I actually have logged a bone stock '93 VR-4, and 1.4k is what it spat out. What you posted sounds reasonable then for what, roughly three more lbs?

[B-Man]

Ok, so if that's correct for stock airflow output, and there's only ~2% duty cycle different @ ~70% duty cycle, where is the correction coming from?

[bboyalan]

Good question! Is it like that throughout the entire map? I have a few silly speculations lol. Perhaps someone else will chime in with their idea[s] until you upload your cal file assuming you still plan on doing so.

[B-Man]

EMU file: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6KZ5TTu4HBQMzRiYzc3ODktOWMxYy00NzEzLWI3M GQtOGRiYzM5NGNiMWIw
3rd gear pull Log file: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6KZ5TTu4HBQYWQ3MTkwNTItNWYzYS00N2U4LTgzY jQtNTVlODc1Y2JlM2Uz

[B-Man]

FYI, my current plan is:

-This weekend put in stock MAS and check/edit my airflow map
-Try INJ correction with stock MAS (heard good things when using EMB)
-I wrote a Matlab script that gives me steady state averages for Duty cycles and AFRs. Hoping to use this to help tune steady state
-Putting final touches on a script that will help with determining my need for using the second map and helping with tip-in

Compare the results using the two methods and decide which suites my needs best (MAFless or stock MAF)

[bboyalan]

That sounds cool. Is yours still intact internally or has it been "enhanced" already? I did try your second point with success a long while back. It will help more than not with a saturated MAS.

In regard to your question earlier, I did not realize that you were using a target map. The pulse correction mellows out after mid-3k probably because everything is already close from before. Other than that, it just appears to be a coincidence that it works out at that level with the given numbers and setup. That is my take anyway.

[KeithMac]

Injector latency/ deadtime plays a big role in fuel delivery and can skew IJ maps based on differing ambient conditions.

For tuning I do an AFR Target Table, set correction to 1% and 300ms delay (you can`t get stable idle with this though), do a long run with lot of different throttle possitions and rpms and steady cruising in different gear/ rpm bands. I then go back through the logs and find good long stoich afr lines in the log and note the IJ Correction it has targeted. I find if you can find three instances for the some cell it will be as near as you`ll ever get. You can build very good sub boost fuel maps from this.

For boosted side of table I`ll log 3 runs and use the average afr/ average IJ correction to fine tune the maps, I don`t think autotune is much use during 2nd gear pulls and can be detrimental if anything.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

the autotune works pretty good for 3rd gear runs starting at around 2500 and holding out to redline. Shorter blasts than that do not work really well because the emanage will overcorrect the momentary lean condition you get when first getting on the gas.

[B-Man]

AFR target is turned off in my setup. I've used it before for exactly what you guys are suggesting (positive pressure above 2500rpm etc.)

[KeithMac]

I run a slow O2 correction (made a circuit to pulse the TPS line at 2.8v for 300ms once a second) works a treat at idle and cruise conditions, set the TPS threshold to 45% in the Target AFR menu.

Weighing up transport delays, wideband latency and the like I came to the conclusion that anything over 1hz for O2 correction under no to moderate acceleration is detrimental to the fuel maps. I found even the slowest setting of 3hz (300ms delay) was too aggressive and caused problems. With the new slow trim altering IJmap 2 the fuel is always near or dead on 14.7:1 where it needs to be.

Would like to make a system to lock out trims under hard acceleration in 1st and 2nd gear but haven`t thought of a good way to implement that yet.

Using the Target AFR as a slow trim really improves matters!.

[B-Man]

Are you not running anything in your accel map? If the TPS suddenly jumps to 45%, how is that not affecting things?

As for injector lag times, I'm running PTE 680s that have a lag time of 1.13@13v. Stock is .73@13v Could the large difference in lag time be causing any of this? What injectors are you guys running? If I just put in lag time (and not inj size) does the EMU compensate?

[KeithMac]

I`ve done quite a lot of testing with IJ accel and I don`t need any below 50% throttle, so it`s zero`d out under there!.

For my lag compensation I put 0.72 before, 1.13? after and 370 in BOTH injector size boxes, then tuned via Airflow Map and IJ Map1.

I found if you have the tune close you don`t need IJ Accel, the Mitsu ECU already does it to a degree, one option is to add +20% fuel at 80% throttle and above below 2000RPM, above that it doesn`t really need any.

Using the Emanage in slow trim is far superior to the Mitsu Closed Loop correction in my experience, definitely worth the effort to get it working (took a while to work out though!).

I`m just throwing it into the mix for you guys, I`m a bit obsessive with my AFR on the datalogs!.

[B-Man]

I`ve done quite a lot of testing with IJ accel and I don`t need any below 50% throttle, so it`s zero`d out under there!.
Nothing below 50%?! I've never seen mine abot ~10%

For my lag compensation I put 0.72 before, 1.13? after and 370 in BOTH injector size boxes, then tuned via Airflow Map and IJ Map1.
I'll have to try that to see if it helps.

I found if you have the tune close you don`t need IJ Accel, the Mitsu ECU already does it to a degree, one option is to add +20% fuel at 80% throttle and above below 2000RPM, above that it doesn`t really need any.
Are you talking a setup with o2s still attached?

Using the Emanage in slow trim is far superior to the Mitsu Closed Loop correction in my experience, definitely worth the effort to get it working (took a while to work out though!).
I did add that for positive pressure areas above ~50% throttle but it seems to slow to do any correction. Are you using it just to keep cruise AFRs in line?

I`m just throwing it into the mix for you guys, I`m a bit obsessive with my AFR on the datalogs!.

See comments in bold.

[KeithMac]

I use it mainly for cruise and idle trimming, above 50% it goes over to the standard 300ms/ 3hz.

I have my stock o2`s pulled, after looking at my datalogs (from the ZT-2 logger) the Mitsu ecu makes a real mess of things, it will average stoich but it`ll be sweeping from 13`s to 16`s (based on my 780`s and 1200`s).

On boost the closed loop is only really usefull in 3rd gear and up, 1st and second go by too fast!.

Interesting you say that with the IJ accel map, the scale reads in %per second, should easily be able to hit that if you plant the throttle but I`ve never seen it either..

[KeithMac]

I use it mainly for cruise and idle trimming, above 50% it goes over to the standard 300ms/ 3hz.

I have my stock o2`s pulled, after looking at my datalogs (from the ZT-2 logger) the Mitsu ecu makes a real mess of things, it will average stoich but it`ll be sweeping from 13`s to 16`s (based on my 780`s and 1200`s).

On boost the closed loop is only really usefull in 3rd gear and up, 1st and second go by too fast!.

Interesting you say that with the IJ accel map, the scale reads in %per second, should easily be able to hit that if you plant the throttle but I`ve never seen it either..

[B-Man]

FINALLY got a MAS in. Didn't go for a drive yet but I have the internal 'logger' taking airflow samples. We'll see how far off my map is. I looked at idle and it's already a huge difference. Could be why my idle sucked to bad.

I will post results from my drive to work probably late tomorrow.

[B-Man]

No one seems to care, but attached is the logger data from the drive home.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I care B-man.

If my car was running I'd have more input.

[B-Man]

You had 13Ts with you e-manage, right? Is the airflow the EMU collecting anywhere close to what you were using? I made a few changes already and it made HUGE difference. I'm noticing less airflow at lower pressure and more airflow at higher pressures than my current (Grayson's) map.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

my airflow sampling map was always flaky for some reason, I didn't trust it.

[terrets]

I caree. Just reading. :) Plus I still need to learn a lot and actually sit down with my logs and what not..

[terrets]

Im sure this answer is out there somewhere, but Ill be lazy for a bit and see if someone can answer..

Is it possible to have EMU log knock if I am already using/logging intake temp and coolant temp. I also have my option ports used up..

If not, what is a good knock warning system/unit, or do you guys trust exhaust temps more?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I always logged both the emanage and the stock ecu through HHH. The emanage firmware has a bug that incorrectly logs timing advance anyway, so it's good to log both to be sure everything is ok.

What are you using the intake logging for?

[B-Man]

I just use a scanmaster. It's usually pretty obvious where it's happening if I'm logging.

[terrets]

I do have HHH.. maybe ill use that. I guess i dont really need to log it but i thought it was good for tuning when there is a temp change. Ugh i hate typing on a tablet.

[B-Man]

So, for those of you keeping up with my saga, a few interesting/frustrating thing after activating the stock MAS:

1) Some reason for injector correction, I need to use 370cc/min before and 450cc/min after in order to get even close
2) I have to add ~20hz at idle in order for it to keep running
3) When letting off the gas, it almost stalls, I need to get a log

There are still areas that are pretty rich. I didn't have much time to play with it, but cruise and boost feel really good.

[B-Man]

Fired it up this morning, ran rich as hell (3% IDC rather than the usual .8% IDC at idle) Loaded in my old tune just to get to work. :Disdain: I hate this car.

[B-Man]

Moar samplings

[B-Man]

Here's a tidbit of info I wish I was told when I started using the EMU and frankly, a little embarassed I didn't figure it out sooner. The adustments you make in the i/j maps are percentages of the input duty cycle.

So, say input is 40% duty cycle and you want to half that, you need to put -50 in your i/j map to get 20% duty cycle.

[B-Man]

Spent some time on the cruise section of my MAFless tune today while traveling (2000-3000rpm and -11.6--2psi). A HUGE DIFFERENCE. It's also pretty awesome when you take a log and the airflow input lies almost directly on the airflow output :D

[B-Man]

Attached is an example of the stalling when returning to idle. Only happens when I have the MAF in. Doesn't happen when I'm running MAFless. Other than that it feels pretty good with a the MAF. Just did a quick 15min tune.

[B-Man]

Would one of you mind sending me a log with a slow throttle increase from 2500rpm and a spike throttle apply from 2500rpm?

[terrets]

Would one of you mind sending me a log with a slow throttle increase from 2500rpm and a spike throttle apply from 2500rpm?

In a week or two.. I hope your not looking for a MAF reading :)

[B-Man]

A MAF reading would be nice, but really I want to see if everyone else's AFR dips as bad as mine does.

[bboyalan]

Cool. I take it that things are going a lot smoother for you this time around?

-sent from my Galaxy Tab

[B-Man]

A little. Redid the airflow map (well most of it so far) and it's running a lot better. Temperature and other conditions still mess with it though but I have yet to mess with the IAT and Coolant adjustments.

I still can't idle w/o running it super lean (IAT issue?), and it still bogs when mashing the throttle (my biggest complaint).

[B-Man]

Would one of you mind sending me a log with a slow throttle increase from 2500rpm and a spike throttle apply from 2500rpm?

Anybody?

[bboyalan]

Anybody?
Whoops - sorry! I have not bothered logging recently ever since I "finalized" my tune. Were you looking for a sample on MAFless or no? I should have something for both.

[B-Man]

I'd like something with a maf signal, but what I really need is RPM, AFR, and TPS.

[bboyalan]

Cool, no problem. I found a pair of sequential logs that fit the bill. They should be up in a moment.

[B-Man]

Sweet, thanks.

[bboyalan]

Sweet, thanks.
You are very welcome :) These are obviously old, but hopefully they are what you are looking for. The MAS was fully gutted on "Stage 2+" with no injector control.

Third = "Slow"
Second = "Spike"
**I cleaned up the logs with cropped sections.

[B-Man]

Those look really lean on the spike (~14afr @ 4psi) but you're AFR only drops (becomes leaner) by one point for ~520msec. Mine usually drop a lot more. Your airflow doesn't spike, so I guess that's good. I just can't figure out why mine always dips so lean for so long (Pegs WBo2 lean for ~1780msec). Changing the Acceleration I/J map that much just feels like it's the wrong thing to do.

[jawanbailey]

Here's a tidbit of info I wish I was told when I started using the EMU and frankly, a little embarassed I didn't figure it out sooner. The adustments you make in the i/j maps are percentages of the input duty cycle.

So, say input is 40% duty cycle and you want to half that, you need to put -50 in your i/j map to get 20% duty cycle.

I love how simply you put this... I have been thinking i was putting in a ridonkuless amount of feel at idle... all though its been explaine elsewhere, this post made it crystal tor me. Thanks.... and yes i know im late.:rolleyes: