Problem with warping my front brake rotors.

[STiedVR4Guy]

So when I first got my car a few years ago the brake rotors were ok but shortly after they began to warp.

Something leading up to this just for background (I have no idea if this has anything to do with it). I was beating on the car through some back roads with some nice S corners when I came over a hill and someone was rolling to a stop at the intersection, I wasn't sure if they were going to stop or not so I got on the brakes pretty hard (no tire screech or anything) and it sounded like a piece of metal popped and I could feel it in the brake pedal.

I could not find anything wrong with the car from just looking at it afterwards and the car seemed to brake just fine still.

So that being said. I warped my stock rotors which I assumed had just been used and old. I got the IPS street brake package (IPS Motorsports (http://www.ipsmotorsports.net/product_info.php?cPath=3543_3550_986_1000_2977_349 6&products_id=1792)) which I installed and brakes were nice and smooth again.

Drove it around for quite a while no problems. A short time later I got some 5Zigen Fn0rc1 (or w/e they are called) wheels and installed those. Still no problems for a few months or so then they start to warp again. At this point I was not sure that the first ones were the issue so I got them turned and installed again (the stock rotors). Few months pass, warped again, rinse and repeat about 3 times now after turning both sets 2 times or so.

I know that turning the rotors may make them out of balance and they will be susceptible to warping more easily but after a few thousand miles that does not seem right.

SO all of that being said here are the few things I need to know.

1. Could the wheels that I got put an uneven surface on the rotor to the point that they are warping them? Note: I have had these on and off a few times and torque them to speck each time.

2. I believe I am missing the little spring-loaded piece of metal that sits between the 2 pins on the back of the calipers (can't remember if its both sides or just one). Could this be the thing that I hear "pop" when I was on the in the first few weeks of having the car? and could this affect me constantly warping rotors?

3. I have been told that crappy pads can cause rotors to warp if you drive it somewhat hard (I do drive it hard but not to the point it should warp rotors like this). So would replacing AGAIN with new rotors and better pads correct the issue? I plan on going with carbotech rotors and pads.

ANYTHING else that someone has experienced and/or troubleshot with the same issue would be incredibly helpful as I don't want to just go spending money to replace everything if thats not what fixes it.

[EvanH]

I had just done my brakes with DBA rotors and Carbotech BobCats all around, after I had a warp feeling going on. Finished my swap, everything worked great for a few thousand miles.

Turned out my rear caliper was slowly seizing causing my rear rotor to warp. Didnt figure it out till one day I walked past my car after parking it, in shorts, and felt the heat coming off the wheel on my leg. Felt it with my hand and it was HOT. It had finally seized enough to cause warping from the excess friction.

And now I have another warped rotor because of that. So that was my problem. But I replaced my caliper.


edit: I hope this isn't to confusing, as I can see how it is. Sometimes I don't write to composed.

[STiedVR4Guy]

Ok that makes sense. Why were the calipers seizing though? Just old age or possibly the brake fluid is to old to disperse heat fast enough? That is another thought I did not flush my brake fluid.... Could this have something to do with it?

[EvanH]

Mine was just age. Original calipers on the car with 150,000 miles on them.

[STiedVR4Guy]

bump for more info.

[HLxDrummer]

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml)

Multiple causes. Not using star pattern and torque wrench, uneven hubs/knuckles, didn't break in brakes properly, etc. Most of the time it is not heat.

[STiedVR4Guy]

Ahh that is one thing I did not do is break in the brakes. This would be "bedding" them after install? How long the calipers last on these cars? (I think mine have over 160k on them)

[EvanH]

Guess, I should mention that...I bedded mine as per the in box instructions. Anywho, good luck with getting it all worked out.

[R/T93]

I suggest a rebuild of your calipers, rebuild kits can be bought from any dealership or online parts store. Maybe replace your wheel bearings, too.

[GTOJOE]

Ahh that is one thing I did not do is break in the brakes. This would be "bedding" them after install? How long the calipers last on these cars? (I think mine have over 160k on them)

In theory the caliper will last forever. However if you fluid is old and dirty they may need servicing [Colt45 post a how to for this]. Perhaps your calipers need servicing as a stuck caliper piston can cause warping. Also when ever chaning rotors you should bed them in. The documentation that came with them should explain this process.

[STiedVR4Guy]

Ok so, bedding procedure (something like this Brake Tech - Brake Pad and Rotor Bed-In Procedures (http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=85) I assume).
Also, did a little searching and 3sx has this kit (Brake Caliper SEAL Kit 3000GT/Stealth*-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=24591)). Is this all I need to "rebuild/service" the calipers?

And as far as the wheel bearings go is this (Wheel Hub & Bearing Parts - 3000GT / Stealth*-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=631)) direct bolt in?

Thanks for all the info!

[GTOJOE]

Ok so, bedding procedure (something like this Brake Tech - Brake Pad and Rotor Bed-In Procedures (http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=85) I assume).
Also, did a little searching and 3sx has this kit (Brake Caliper SEAL Kit 3000GT/Stealth*-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=24591)). Is this all I need to "rebuild/service" the calipers?

And as far as the wheel bearings go is this (Wheel Hub & Bearing Parts - 3000GT / Stealth*-*Mitsubishi 3000GT*/*Dodge Stealth Parts (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=631)) direct bolt in?

Thanks for all the info!

Yes, yes & yes to all 3 :p If it's a 1st gen you may also need some caliper slide grease for the rear calipers. However you need to test if they are faulty before doing this. You need to jack up the car and put it in nuetral. Just spin each wheel and make sure it's not dragging. Maybe get someone to push the brake pedal and make sure it releases correctly. No point doing the rebuild if nothign wrong. As for bearings you will need to do some research on how to test these. Usually just jack the corner up so the wheel is just off the ground and use a large pry bar to lever under the wheel and pull up and see if there is any play in the bearing. Just lightly till you can feel the weight of the car. If the bearing is stuffed the wheel should have movement in it before the weight of the car is felt.

Hope all that makes sense.

[STiedVR4Guy]

The caliper test yes it does.

And once I am looking at it I think I should be able to figure out the wheel bearing test.

I have some OEM struts and lowering springs to put in so I'll complete these and check everything out when I do those. Thanks!

[HLxDrummer]

Just FYI you can get Centrix rebuild kits cheap :)

[STiedVR4Guy]

Just FYI you can get Centrix rebuild kits cheap :)

Link?

[STiedVR4Guy]

This particular issue isn't just juddering in the pedal. The steering wheel vibrates like crazy and the front of the car just vibrates. Each time I have had the rotors turned they have been warped. I am planning to replace the pads as that sounds like one thing that might be causing it and like others have said I did not bed them.

That is very interesting though and I won't rule it out. I'll check the pads to see if they show the same symptoms that you describe.

thanks!

[HLxDrummer]

Link?

RockAuto Parts Catalog (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1419926&parttype=1720&partkey=878454&a=FRc1419926k878454-3337788)

I got mine from here. I'm not sure what year your car is so they may not have it, mine is a 1993. The dust boots didn't want to go on all that great, but I had just powdercoated them and never rebuilt calipers before so I could have had the same issue with OEM. Other than that no problems in the past ~8 months and they are CHEAP.

You can usually get OEM parts cheaper through Cherry Hill, as well. I think I paid about 3SX's price for my wheel hubs though, not considering shipping (usually 3SX is steep in that department).

[STiedVR4Guy]

Just change the pads, it's the easiest thing to do. Yes my steering wheel vibrated too.

Every workshop is going to tell you that the discs need skimming, that's the way the industry works. That's because most of the monkeys wouldn't have a clue and it's an easy way of extracting more of your hard earned dollars.

Steve

Wow I really hope its that simple. I'll order some asap. thanks!

[GTOJOE]

Amazingly enough Steve might be right on this. Therewas a thread recently where it was talked about a lot and ppl with knowledge in the area and lots of race experience said the same thing. 1st step is change pads. However if you changing pads you need to use the same pads or you need to get the rotors skimmed. Part of the bedding in process is transfering pad material to the rotor to create a proper chemical bond [part of proper braking process not just pure force]. If you use different pads and don't skim the rotors then you won't get efficient braking. I'll see if I can find the thread for you.

[GTOJOE]

I believe this was the thread. Lots of arguing but some relevant info in there.

http://www.3sgto.org/f2/pros-cons-drilled-slotted-rotors-999.html

[STiedVR4Guy]

Read through about half of that thread. Most of it seems like raging about which is better cross drilled or sloted/blanks and what ones to use for track use.

I am having an issue with warping mine over and over not just destroying them. It does have some good info though thanks for the read ^_^

[GTOJOE]

there is a lot of cracp but there was also talk of the proper bedding in process etc. Unless It's the wrong thread LOL. I'm at work [in Australia] so didn't have time to read through it all to confirm.

[STiedVR4Guy]

Yes but how do you know that they've actually warped?

Do they feel like they've warped? - Yes but I'm not sure of the difference between these cars and other cars because I have not found the solution yet so I can't confirm this.

Did a brake shop tell you? - My dad took the rotors to a shop that does a lot of racing aplications for cars so he trusts them with the work they do and the info they provide. Yes they did tell him the rotors were warped.

Did you put a dial gauge on the disc and check for runout? - No

Chances are that they're not warped. - I agree with you however my reference was to that thread not helping my issue very much as it was an argument about which is better cross drilled VS slotted.

Steve

[HLxDrummer]

Yes but how do you know that they've actually warped?

Do they feel like they've warped? - Yes but I'm not sure of the difference between these cars and other cars because I have not found the solution yet so I can't confirm this.

Did a brake shop tell you? - My dad took the rotors to a shop that does a lot of racing aplications for cars so he trusts them with the work they do and the info they provide. Yes they did tell him the rotors were warped.

Did you put a dial gauge on the disc and check for runout? - No

Chances are that they're not warped. - I agree with you however my reference was to that thread not helping my issue very much as it was an argument about which is better cross drilled VS slotted.

Steve

If the rotors are "warped" as in they are not true then there is a problem with one of the things I mentioned. Hub/flange/break them in/uneven lugnut torque/crappy materials/etc. If you look on the other site under threads I've made there is one regarding things I've thought of that could cause this.

[STiedVR4Guy]

If the rotors are "warped" as in they are not true then there is a problem with one of the things I mentioned. Hub/flange/break them in/uneven lugnut torque/crappy materials/etc. If you look on the other site under threads I've made there is one regarding things I've thought of that could cause this.

Yes I understand this however 3 times in a row and each time within a few weeks of driving leads me to believe that Steve68 is probably correct.

As of right now my plan of action is as follows:

1. Order new pads along with SS lines and new fluid (also the springs in the back of the calipers because mine are gone for some reason).
2. Swap out the pads, change the lines and flush the fluid replace with clean stuff because I need to anyways. Leave the rotors in their current state. IF they are warped I will most likely feel it right away under breaking when I bed them.

IF this does not fix my issue then I will look into the issue with replacing hubs since it may not be a bad Idea with the power I want to make.

I'll keep the thread updated.

[Ninja Performance]

Didn't read the whole thread so may be repeat info

Over torque on lugnuts or un even torque sequence can cause rotors to warp.
More times than not, rotors do not warp from use. They develop uneven deposits of pad material which are more times than not mistaken/mis diagnosed as warping.
Cheap chinese blanks - this is becoming more and more the case. Even what some vendors will charge an arm and a leg for are starting off as chinese cheap metal blanks.

-Chris

[MR2]

I guess you could take the rotors off and take them to a shop to get checked....it'd be the yes or know to end the debate :p

[Ninja Performance]

I guess you could take the rotors off and take them to a shop to get checked....it'd be the yes or know to end the debate :p

Trouble is, most shops are manned by 19 yr olds that don't know a rotor from a shovel and will measure it and say - warped, when it is actually deposits. Poor pad run in/bedding in.

-Chris

[Ninja Performance]

Just googled...here is wiki excerpt
Disc brake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake)
Often uneven pad transfer is confused for disc warping. In reality, the majority of brake discs which are diagnosed as "warped" are actually simply the product of uneven transfer of pad material.
Uneven pad transfer will often lead to a thickness variation of the disc. When the thicker section of the disc passes between the pads, the pads will move apart and the brake pedal will raise slightly; this is pedal pulsation. The thickness variation can be felt by the driver when it is approximately 0.17 mm or greater (on automobile discs).

-Chris

[STiedVR4Guy]

Just googled...here is wiki excerpt
Disc brake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake)
Often uneven pad transfer is confused for disc warping. In reality, the majority of brake discs which are diagnosed as "warped" are actually simply the product of uneven transfer of pad material.
Uneven pad transfer will often lead to a thickness variation of the disc. When the thicker section of the disc passes between the pads, the pads will move apart and the brake pedal will raise slightly; this is pedal pulsation. The thickness variation can be felt by the driver when it is approximately 0.17 mm or greater (on automobile discs).

-Chris

Is there a way to "clean" the extra pad material off without damaging the rotor? I believe they are s softer type metal correct?

[MR2]

yeah there is they just machine the surface down on a machine :)

I say go find a machine NOT manned by a 19 year old kid :p

[STiedVR4Guy]

yeah there is they just machine the surface down on a machine :)

I say go find a machine NOT manned by a 19 year old kid :p

lol gotcha. Ok so if I have the vibration now with current pads, simply swapping them out and bedding properly will not work the greatest? I should get them machined down (Not by a 19 year old) and then bed them properly with new pads. Or just bed them with current rotors untouched?

[JasonY]

You have to machine the rotors or replace them. If not you just wasted a bunch of time.

If you want a pad that will work pretty much no matter what you do, get Carbotech AX6's. They dust a bit but have good cold bite and will work to the point which few will ever reach on non R-compound tires. Titanium backing plates are a good idea to help to not melt the dust boots when playing hard.

Jason

[STiedVR4Guy]

You have to machine the rotors or replace them. If not you just wasted a bunch of time.

If you want a pad that will work pretty much no matter what you do, get Carbotech AX6's. They dust a bit but have good cold bite and will work to the point which few will ever reach on non R-compound tires. Titanium backing plates are a good idea to help to not melt the dust boots when playing hard.

Jason

Ok I will make sure to get the rotors machined. I ordered Carbotech bobcats (ordered before I saw that post), I Don't suspect I will be doing a lot of heavy track use until I get everything together on the car. I would like to just get everything in working order before I really start beating on it.

I decided to just get some new Carbotech slotted rotors along with the pads and SS lines. Again, I'll keep the thread updated as I get things together. Thanks for all the help!

Edit: scratch that got the AX6 pads instead. Also the guy I spoke with at IPS told me Carbotech pre-beds the pads/rotors now (as of 6ish months ago) Good idea to do it anyways?

[DocWalt]

You'll be happy with the AX6 and the Carbotech rotors. I had un-slotted Carbotech rotors and they were fantastic.

Yes, it's a good idea to bed the pads/rotors still. Plus you'll get a feel for your new brakes ;)

[HLxDrummer]

I would still bed them in to be sure :)

[STiedVR4Guy]

Great thanks for the input guys! Going to get the other set of rotors machined down just in case but hopefully this will be the end of this trouble :)

[HLxDrummer]

I hope so, I'll have my fingers crossed. Keep us updated either way.