the difference between dohctt heads and dohc na

[shmoo]

how's it goin guys.

i've got these heads, and they were traded to me as vr4 heads. how can i tell if they are actually from a vr4? from what i've read, the bore(?) on the vr4's heads are bigger, but i really dunno.

_isiah

[Gearheadvr4]

The cams are different but I'm not sure on the outside. There us something likely stamped on the head to tell the difference. Honestly it's not a huge deal to run NA heads on a VR4. The power loss is very minimal until your in the higher HP range.

[IPD]

Depends which heads they are.
TT heads have 3T cast in the end, or 3T2.
1st gen N/A heads have 3N cast in the end.
2nd gen N/A heads have 3A cast in the end.

The best ones to use are the 3N.

The 3A heads have small ports, the 3T heads are only good as a doorstop.

Steve

i'm with stupid. take whatever he says, reverse it, and it's probably true.

p.s.

broken ringlands.

[Ray Pampena]

the turbo heads stock outflow the na heads ported. the best heads are turbo heads ported

[CoopKill]

I assume you lose low end by porting the TT heads?

[Gearheadvr4]

You guys crack me up. Entertaining but what's the feud?
Broken ringlands?

But yes Ray is correct and I wouldn't doubt him on this. I'm very sure he has flow tested them to back it up.


i'm with stupid. take whatever he says, reverse it, and it's probably true.

p.s.

broken ringlands.

[IPD]

You guys crack me up. Entertaining but what's the feud?
Broken ringlands?
But yes Ray is correct and I wouldn't doubt him on this. I'm very sure he has flow tested them to back it up.

everything steve68 says is total shite. i believe in freedom of speech and all; but what steve posts is like yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theatre. "broken ringlands" came about because he once had the audacity to claim broken ringlands were a problem on our car and/or symptomatic of modding incorrectly. now i don't know about you, but i've yet to hear of a 3/s owner with broken ringlands. (exempting steve68, of course).


If any of you have studied the intake ports on a 1JZ, a 2JZ , an evo, an RB25/26, any turbo Subaru. then you'd be a lot wiser. It's because you all sit behind computer screens.
The TT heads are total shyte and fit for nothing but doorstops.
All of those motors will smoke a 72TT in terms of power per CC per pound of boost.
Haha and that's why there's no progress on the 3S platform. People can't think outside of the square.
It's all based on ONE article on stealth 316 written 10 or so years ago. Just like the imaginary "forged" crank that's never existed.

Steve

seriously, read this and try not to laugh. i get it because i've been around a while; but i really feel bad for the new guys who could be duped into thinking his advice was correct.

i don't think the 3/s platform is "behind" because people "can't think outside the square". i think it's "behind" because those people who are new to this platform who might be able to help move it forward are hampered by the likes of this bullcrap. but if people want to believe that a good set of properly ported tt heads won't outflow 2jz heads; that our cars never came with forged cranks; and that broken ringlands are systemic problem for the platform--i can't stop you.

just know that your car WILL be a decoration in a junkyard within the next 5 years. i would cry about it; but as it will probably increase the value of mine--i'll just sit back and laugh.

[Gearheadvr4]

This is a bit off topic but can we put someone on global ignore? Now that I've gone back and read some more posts I'm really getting the feeling that he just posts to see what he can get away with. Throwing crap at a wall to see what sticks.

[aaronatstate]

If any of you have studied the intake ports on a 1JZ, a 2JZ , an evo, an RB25/26, any turbo Subaru. then you'd be a lot wiser. It's because you all sit behind computer screens.
The TT heads are total shyte and fit for nothing but doorstops.
All of those motors will smoke a 72TT in terms of power per CC per pound of boost.
Haha and that's why there's no progress on the 3S platform. People can't think outside of the square.
It's all based on ONE article on stealth 316 written 10 or so years ago. Just like the imaginary "forged" crank that's never existed.

Steve

Wow. Just, wow.

It's actually stuff like this that prevents the progress. People posting things that are completely and utterly wrong.

[2fnloud]

Hahahaha.

Why don't you ask Import Power AKA Ninja performance. He did a pretty good build on stock N/A heads, he even commented on that "other" forum that they made more power per pound of boost than TT heads, but then he went to work for 3sx so go figure?

Steve


IF it was true, why isn't he in here backing up your outlandish statement. I remember reading your thread / comments about this on "The other" site, there was no one backing you there either.

I learned real quick to disregard about this platform right from the start.

[11secondFWD]

Minimal difference. I had a TT head and swapped a n/a head on and had no difference in dyno numbers at about a 400whp level. With more power maybe but not at those levels.

[TT4ME]

This is a bit off topic but can we put someone on global ignore? Now that I've gone back and read some more posts I'm really getting the feeling that he just posts to see what he can get away with. Throwing crap at a wall to see what sticks.


I 2nd that motion.

[2fnloud]

This is a bit off topic but can we put someone on global ignore? Now that I've gone back and read some more posts I'm really getting the feeling that he just posts to see what he can get away with. Throwing crap at a wall to see what sticks.

Click on member's name you wish to ignore and then select "Ignore This Member" icon.

[DG]

i don't think the 3/s platform is "behind" because people "can't think outside the square". i think it's "behind" because those people who are new to this platform who might be able to help move it forward are hampered by the likes of this bullcrap.

The platform is "behind" because it is a very small - and shrinking - market, and there's very little economic incentive to develop new stuff.

I have the ability to have a seriously kick-ass cast intake manifold built, because I have access to perhaps the best intake manifold designer in North America. But if he can't sell 200 of them, it ain't worth doing.

DG

[aaronatstate]

All of those motors will smoke a 72TT in terms of power per CC per pound of boost

So Matt's car that made 1093whp (~1400 chp), with a 3.54 liter (3,540cc's), at ~30psi of boost isn't a good power/cc/pound of boost (who actually measures that anyway).

Not to mention the cost of going to the 3.54L in a 6G72TT is about 7k with the billet crank, less if you just use a factory 6G74 crank, where as to get the 2JZ to 3.4L you are looking at around 14k. This is for fully assembled short blocks. Heck a fully assembled 3.5L 6g72 short block is less then just the componets of the 2JZ stroker.

Not to mention for a "street" head for a 2Jz you're looking at at least 3.5k where as the the 6G72 for the best heads you can get (proven) you are looking at 2.5k MAX.


Just like the imaginary "forged" crank that's never existed.

Steve

Proof?

[IPD]

More to the point, where's Ninja performance?

The facts speak for themselves with T2 don't they?

He hasn't commented to deny that T2 went really well on STOCK N/A heads.......STOCK versus STOCK. IN fact he's go a record with them which still stands to this day.

Steve

stock n/a heads doing "well" doesn't explain why tt-heads are "best used as a doorstop". you're a fucking lunatic.

[CoreyB]

I for one want to hear what IPO has to say. Even though I would be very careful at best taking any of Steves advice.

[aaronatstate]

More to the point, where's Ninja performance?

The facts speak for themselves with T2 don't they?

He hasn't commented to deny that T2 went really well on STOCK N/A heads.......STOCK versus STOCK. IN fact he's go a record with them which still stands to this day.

Steve

Yes, and T2 also had 3sx's ported and polished race heads with race weld cams in them too. Straight from 3SXs from site.


We have built a FWD based drag car runing custom developmental turbos, 3SX ported+polished heads with race weld cams, AEM management, 1000cc injectors, 3SX Ross pistons, Pauter rods, FMIC, stock intake manifold and throttle body.

[aaronatstate]

I for one want to hear what IPO has to say. Even though I would be very careful at best taking any of Steves advice.

So you dont trust Ray P? I'd say him and Chris are on the same level for knowledge of the platform.

[CoreyB]

Never said I dont trust either of them, they are the best of the best in my opinion. I would just like to see Chris say that Steve is wrong. If he doesnt then whats to say that just maybe 1st gen na heads are better than TT heads. I mean Chris supposably ran gen 1 na heads, why?

[aaronatstate]

Never said I dont trust either of them, they are the best of the best in my opinion. I would just like to see Chris say that Steve is wrong. If he doesnt then whats to say that just maybe 1st gen na heads are better than TT heads. I mean Chris supposably ran gen 1 na heads, why?

He ran ported and polished 3SX race heads, with race weld cams.

[mb3000]

*Steve68 is to be considered completely wrong unless proved slightly right.*

-3SGTO Handbook, 4th Amendment, page 18.

Read up. :p

[CoopKill]

Do not put steve on ignore evar!

If too many do this, there will nobody to set the record straight and prevent the unknowing from believing in his nonsense...

[J_Parker]

Do not put steve on ignore evar!

If too many do this, there will nobody to set the record straight and prevent the unknowing from believing in his nonsense...

This! If all the new guys are the only ones seeing this bullshit posted, they're going to believe it when there's no one to say "Steve, stop talking. You're just making yourself look like an ever increasing idiot with every post".

Both N/A and T/T heads are more than capable of large hp numbers, it all just depends on how much you cut away, and how qualitative the port job is. But this is about stock heads, T/T heads have a higher flow rate...

[93SlugTT]

Well fuck me running. So far from person this site. I need to have....
Broken ringlands
1g n/a heads on my 4bolt TT engine
I don't have a forged crank from factory
And my car doesn't make shit for power compared to a suby/supra/lambo and a honda insight
And I need to add a huge hood scoop to a car that wouldn't make use of it besides to catch birds with it.


Fuck me. Should have bough a n/a and slapped turbos on it, I would be faster.

[J. Fast]

:hahaha:
Call a ninja! :ninja2:

[shmoo]

hey guys, thanks for staying somewhat on topic and getting me some helpful information. steve posted this:

TT heads have 3T cast in the end, or 3T2.
1st gen N/A heads have 3N cast in the end.
2nd gen N/A heads have 3A cast in the end.

can we at least agree that this is correct? i still haven't taken a look at them

thanks y'all

_isiah

[IPD]

Kids will be kids........so T2 with all the fancy 3SX gear ends up running less MPH than SLTT with STOCK N/A heads and stock N/A cams?

Or is that just too hard for kids on here to comprehend?

Sure T2 got a quicker 60 foot and quicker ET but less MPH, that's with fancy ported TT heads, cams too (thanks Aaronstate).

And that was how many years ago?

And THAT is why TT heads make good doorstops.

have you even been to a dragstrip? do you even know how the physics of a 1/4 mile run works?

a quicker 60' and quicker ET means that the car spent less time accelerating on the track. the car gets to the end quicker, meaning that it doesn't get there at a higher rate of speed.

jesus fucking christ, how have you never heard of the difference between a 600hp supra and a 1200 supra? they both get to the finish-line at the exact same time!

[Ninja Performance]

Kids will be kids........so T2 with all the fancy 3SX gear ends up running less MPH than SLTT with STOCK N/A heads and stock N/A cams?

Or is that just too hard for kids on here to comprehend?

Sure T2 got a quicker 60 foot and quicker ET but less MPH, that's with fancy ported TT heads, cams too (thanks Aaronstate).

And that was how many years ago?

And THAT is why TT heads make good doorstops.


More to the point, where's Ninja performance?

The facts speak for themselves with T2 don't they?

He hasn't commented to deny that T2 went really well on STOCK N/A heads.......STOCK versus STOCK. IN fact he's go a record with them which still stands to this day.

Steve

Here I am.

If you want to compare heads to heads, and call stock NA heads great and stock TT heads good for doorstops, you need to compare apples to apples. Not apples to a barrel of monkeys.

BEFORE I worked for 3sx, SLTT was my car. I built it. And I beat the fuck out of it and blew it up often, as accounted in my many track/build threads back in the day. I did it to push the edge, test parts, test tuning envelopes etc. I had no dyno, so I used the track to push it. And blow it up I did. Many times. Ran over 40psi on a stock NA bottom end once. Ask Stealthee, he was THERE that day. Car disappeared halfway down the track LOL.

Now, when SLTT was mine and I ran on a shoestring budget, literally...I ran stock NA bottom end parts. Many times blowing it up and only hand honing it and tossing new rings on another set of used NA pistons. I didn't care, it was a track car. I ran NA heads, na cams, and LOTS of boost throwing caution to the wind. Knowing better but not giving a crap.

Ran a best of 10.9 @ 142 with a craptastic 1.920 60 ft.
Chinese EVOIIIs with custom one off Import-Power TDO5 Kit @ 35psi on C16

Then I went to work for 3sx. After lots of throwing 3sx parts at it and lots of track time, using 3SX race heads and 3sx weld cams, the best I was able to do was
60ft 1.586 10.191@140.31
3SX Twin Turbo Kit with GT3076s @ 34psi on C16

Now, you can NOT compare na heads and cams to 3sx heads with 3sx cams. You are not comparing stock heads to stock heads.

My current car run 747AWTQ 835AWHP on stock TT heads and stock TT cams. I am pretty certain stock NA heads could not flow enough air to accomplish that. Period.

And lets not even get into DR heads. That throws another monkey in the ring. I am afraid to think what my car would do with a set of those. Testing boost limits, my 5027's are NOT done yet, but my heads are peaked out. I would most likely make a good amount of power increase at lower boost with DR heads.

Stock for stock, TT heads flow more.
Stock NA heads can run 10's if you run high boost. TT heads will get you there easier.

-Chris

[CoreyB]

Thank you

[DG]

Worth pointing out:

The difference between 10.9 and 10.1 is enormous.

Improvements in ET do not scale linearly. Moving from 16.9 to 16.1 is not the same as moving as 11.9 to 11.1, and certainly not from 6.9 to 6.1.

Just in case anybody is looking at an 8 tenths improvement and thinking that's no big deal.

DG

[Ninja Performance]

Worth pointing out:

The difference between 10.9 and 10.1 is enormous.

Improvements in ET do not scale linearly. Moving from 16.9 to 16.1 is not the same as moving as 11.9 to 11.1, and certainly not from 6.9 to 6.1.

Just in case anybody is looking at an 8 tenths improvement and thinking that's no big deal.

DG

Look at the 60 fts and the trap speeds.
in GENERAL .1 60ft is good for .2 in 1/4 mile ET.
That would bring, in theory, my SLTT run from 10.9 to 10.232 versus the T2 10.191 run.
That is a .041 second difference. Which is why the trap speeds are so close.

-Chris

[11secondFWD]

For sure, its the 60 ft. The mph was close in each. On street tires I ran 13.2 @ 123 and with slicks ran 11.8 @123. Same everything but my 60ft went from 2.5 to 1.8.

And like I said, N/A heads will flow pretty similiar to TT heads at lower power and can get decent times. But at high hp like chris's black vr4, TT heads will do better and get there much easier.

For most, and like me at 400whp, I switched between the two before with no or minimal difference in power.

[aaronatstate]

Thank you Chris.

Though I still bet Steve tries to come in and justify that NA heads are better then TT heads, and that you are now wrong, instead of knowing what you are talking.

[J. Fast]

If any of you have studied the intake ports on... an evo,....( Edit: yada yada yada), any turbo Subaru. then you'd be a lot wiser. It's because you all sit behind computer screens.
The TT heads are total shyte and fit for nothing but doorstops.
All of those motors will smoke a 72TT in terms of power per CC per pound of boost.
Haha and that's why there's no progress on the 3S platform. People can't think outside of the square.


Steve

They flow more efficiently because of something called Variable Valve Timing (VVT) and Mitsubishi Innovative Valve Timing and lift Electronic Control (MIVEC) dipshit!

[Frostedbutts]

The NA heads flow better due to having stronger ringlands, you can't break them.

[93SlugTT]

Poor steve. He reminds me of the honda ricers, will stop at nothing to tell you how his b16 honda with a intake will walk a vette.

[Ninja Performance]

What's mivec got to do with anything? That's not even part of anything discussed.
Evos don't have mivec (the X is mivec by name only), nor subarus, nor 1 or 2 JZs, nor RBs.

Dragracing 101......MPH is a measure of how much power you're making.
So , no rocket scientists on here?
The mega dollar 3SX setup makes the same power roughly as the stock N/A head/cam setup.
Fuck that's easy to work out?

Steve

That right there is what you need to focus on. Not NA heads versus TT heads.

-Chris

[UTRacerX9]

By that token Chris, you are "basically" saying that you would have performed better had you just had a set of stock TT heads on T2 rather than the 3SX ones... Hmm. Interesting info. Didn't you ever dyno the 3SX heads to see what the power gains were vs stock?

[Ninja Performance]

By that token Chris, you are "basically" saying that you would have performed better had you just had a set of stock TT heads on T2 rather than the 3SX ones... Hmm. Interesting info. Didn't you ever dyno the 3SX heads to see what the power gains were vs stock?

Take the results for what they are. Draw your own conclusions from the information given.
Tests on 3SX heads versus stock on the dyno would be 3sx proprietary information that I am no longer allowed to comment on.

-Chris

[UTRacerX9]

Gotcha. ;)

[aaronatstate]

What's mivec got to do with anything? That's not even part of anything discussed.
Evos don't have mivec (the X is mivec by name only).

Steve

Just stop, now. The Evos have had MIVEC (varaible valve timing) since the Evo 9. MIVEC changes how and air flows through the cylinder head drastically, by allwoing the valves to open longer, and at different times.

Even Chris came in and said that TT heads flow better then NA heads, and you are still disagreeing. So do us all a favor, stop talking. Its clear you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

[Ninja Performance]

Just stop, now. The Evos have had MIVEC (varaible valve timing) since the Evo 9. MIVEC changes how and air flows through the cylinder head drastically, by allwoing the valves to open longer, and at different times.

Even Chris came in and said that TT heads flow better then NA heads, and you are still disagreeing. So do us all a favor, stop talking. Its clear you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Cmon, there are no such things as forged cranks or MIVEC....just broken ringlands.

-Chris

[aaronatstate]

Cmon, there are no such things as forged cranks or MIVEC....just broken ringlands.

-Chris

Damn guess Mitsu got me then when I bought that new forged crank a year and a half ago. I couldve just reused my cast crank.

[DrGonzo]

So my gathering of this is that the N/A heads will do the job but are limited somewhere over 400hp. Somewhere over the 400hp mark is where the TT heads will out perform the N/A heads.

Does that seem pretty accurate??


And Chris what CR where you running on your SLTT and what was the max boost you could run on pump??

[Ninja Performance]

So my gathering of this is that the N/A heads will do the job but are limited somewhere over 400hp. Somewhere over the 400hp mark is where the TT heads will out perform the N/A heads.

Does that seem pretty accurate??


And Chris what CR where you running on your SLTT and what was the max boost you could run on pump??

I ran stock NA parts, blew it up, rebuilt it with more used NA parts. I was racing a a VERY limited budget. No idea on pump gas. I only ran it on either Sunoco 110 or C16

-Chris

[RL7]

If you get past the bickering, there is actually a lot of pretty good info in this thread. Of course, it would be hard to imagine mitsubishi going through the effort of manufacturing two different sets of heads and then putting the inferior design on their premium vehicle unless it was a major mistake. On the other hand, the cars were designed to make a certain amount of power and meet certain "power benchmarks" for the time. It is possible they needed more efficient heads to make "222 hp" NA on the 6g72 than they did to make 300 hp turbocharged on the same engine. The cars were not likely designed with upgrading in mind. Just food for thought.

[UTRacerX9]

It is possible they needed more efficient heads to make "222 hp" NA on the 6g72 than they did to make 300 hp turbocharged on the same engine. The cars were not likely designed with upgrading in mind. Just food for thought.

Possible, but not likely. The turbo engines are designed to have the most backpressure at the turbine, not the heads themselves. Considering both heads have been flow tested, and the TT flows more... there really isn't any more room for discussion regarding that one. All an engine really is is a glorified air pump. If you can move more air through the engine, you make more horsepower, plain and simple. The real story here is regarding what Chris said... Now, flow testing a 3SX head vs an NA and TT head would be interesting...

[aaronatstate]

-

Again, you don't know what you're on about.

The original mivec had 2 different profiles on each of the camshafts. A short duration low lift cam for the bottom end and a long duration high lift cam for the top end. On both cams.
The Mivec on the later cars (evo, 6G75 etc) is mivec by name only, it's for economy, intake cam only, only one cam profile, it switches (3 position) duration of phase or whatever. it's certainly NOT a performance setup.

Again, where's all the "rocket scientists" gone to.
The stock 30M makes 197Kw with the same port shape as the 3N head, no turbos.
The 6G75 mivec makes less power but from an extra 800CCs.

Steve

It's clear by this post, that you have absolutely, no fucking idea, what the hell you are talking about. I'm done. Talking to you is like talking to a damn brick, except the brick is smarter.

[J_Parker]

I'll give you this Steve, you plan ahead with your bullshitting everyone on here. You bring up an irrelevant topic a few posts back so that when you're proven wrong time and time again, you have something to continue on your arguments in an attempt to redeem yourself of your stupidity :) It's quite clever really!

Quit changing the damn topics, if you would like to discuss the workings of MIVEC then make a new thread about it. This one is about inferring the difference in T/T vs. N/A heads, lets try to keep it at that...


It is possible they needed more efficient heads to make "222 hp" NA on the 6g72 than they did to make 300 hp turbocharged on the same engine. The cars were not likely designed with upgrading in mind. Just food for thought.

This is a very interesting thing to consider, however I wouldn't find it very likely. I would suspect longer duration intake cams would be a little more practical for an N/A application.

P.S.

Enough with your forged crank argument too. Unless your camera can zoom into a molecular level, keep you mouth shut about it. Mitsubishi, 3SX, IPS, etc are all against you on this argument and I'm sure the 100's of brains more than fluent with this platform know a tad more than you... Just something to think about?

[RL7]

Possible, but not likely. The turbo engines are designed to have the most backpressure at the turbine, not the heads themselves. Considering both heads have been flow tested, and the TT flows more... there really isn't any more room for discussion regarding that one. All an engine really is is a glorified air pump. If you can move more air through the engine, you make more horsepower, plain and simple. The real story here is regarding what Chris said... Now, flow testing a 3SX head vs an NA and TT head would be interesting...

I think there may be a little more room for discussion.. Mitsubishi overstated the horsepower on the NA model and not so much on the TT model. I'm pretty sure they would have wanted to actually make the same HP as the NA Z or Supra or whoever they were chasing. The NA car does have the variable intake thing and a few other impressive pieces of engineering, so it's apparent that the NA car was more than an afterthought. The turbo car was almost undoubtedly designed first. Why wouldn't they just toss the turbo heads on the NA car? Better flow through the head is good for most any engine, NA or FI. It doesn't make sense that they would design an inferior set of heads when they are trying to hit a higher hp mark. They could have overestimated the power the NA engine was going to make and produced more restrictive heads, but that seems silly. They also could have designed both cars somewhat independently, but that also doesn't make much sense.

Does any stock vs. stock flow testing even exist? Having either one ported, upgraded, or messed with in any way kind of screws up the test. I don't use either head, so I don't care a whole lot, but I generally don't believe anything without evidence, regardless of who says it.

[CoreyB]

Ray made the claim that the TT heads flow more than the NA heads, he is pretty good about testing before speaking but I myself have not done a bench flow test on either.

[RL7]

Ray made the claim that the TT heads flow more than the NA heads, he is pretty good about testing before speaking but I myself have not done a bench flow test on either.

Read what he said though... "the turbo heads stock outflow the na heads ported. the best heads are turbo heads ported"

His site also says a poor porting job can make heads flow worse (I think, don't hold me to that). I'd just be interested to see stock vs. stock.

[CoreyB]

Nah its pretty clear that he is saying the TT heads are far superior to the NA heads.

[mb3000]

I think there may be a little more room for discussion.. Mitsubishi overstated the horsepower on the NA model and not so much on the TT model. I'm pretty sure they would have wanted to actually make the same HP as the NA Z or Supra or whoever they were chasing. The NA car does have the variable intake thing and a few other impressive pieces of engineering, so it's apparent that the NA car was more than an afterthought. The turbo car was almost undoubtedly designed first. Why wouldn't they just toss the turbo heads on the NA car? Better flow through the head is good for most any engine, NA or FI. It doesn't make sense that they would design an inferior set of heads when they are trying to hit a higher hp mark. They could have overestimated the power the NA engine was going to make and produced more restrictive heads, but that seems silly. They also could have designed both cars somewhat independently, but that also doesn't make much sense.

Does any stock vs. stock flow testing even exist? Having either one ported, upgraded, or messed with in any way kind of screws up the test. I don't use either head, so I don't care a whole lot, but I generally don't believe anything without evidence, regardless of who says it.

Has anyone switched the heads on a NA to the tt heads? Stock for stock of course.

[IPD]

Take the results for what they are. Draw your own conclusions from the information given.
Tests on 3SX heads versus stock on the dyno would be 3sx proprietary information that I am no longer allowed to comment on.

-Chris

did you say those were +1/+1 oversized valves, or just stock valve size with higher lift, better springs, etc? i'm sold on the "stock cams" idea; especially compared to the issues that can occur with regrinds. i'm fairly certain that oversized valves makes a pretty significant impact though. i've only heard vague results from IPS's +2/+2 heads. i almost went with those myself; but since i'll probably never run over 20psi, it seemed like a marginal improvement over +1/+1.

[J. Fast]

I though Jeff Lucius had documented the flow bench results of the NA vs. Stock heads?

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

What's with this Steve guy? Is he a troll or what? I can't say I've ever seen him post correct information.

[J_Parker]

Lol, Steve... You make me laugh, I hope you don't ever get banned. I would like the hilarity to ensue at your expense :p

[J. Fast]

Kids again...........

The 72TT was designed to make monster torque numbers but was also designed to not exceed 206Kw, that number beeing the "gentlemans agreement" that jap designers stuck to at the time.

So how would you do that?

It's easy if you study the developments of the evo through the years.

The answer of course is to fit 2 turbos, use cams that make max torque at 3000rpms rather than 6000rpms , and fit an intake manifold and intake ports that flow well at low speed but actully strangle the flow at high RPMs.

So how would you build an intake port that strangles the flow at high RPMs and high flow?
You'd make it big and wide and put a really blunt divider between the intake valves so that it disrupts the flow at the top end.

Flow benches only work at low flow, they're useless at high flow and useless in any real flow type stiuation. They're only good for testing "before" and "after" modifications

BTW there aren't even any pics of N/A intake ports on that "other" forum, not that I've been able to find. The only pics you'll find on here are on my build thread.

BTW I was put onto this some years ago by the owner of "speedtech" here in NZ. Not that he knows anything, he just built the worlds fastest evo at the time (docile), he tuned the worlds fastest GTR (heat treatments) and he's responsible for the build of the HD2 drag car in "other rides".


Steve

Keep going :eat:

[dpartinvr4]

I'm afraid if somebody flies him over, he will beat my bob thomas at the NG dinner for schmucks...:(

[J_Parker]

I'm afraid if somebody flies him over, he will beat my bob thomas at the NG dinner for schmucks...:(

Not going to happen, have no fear. Steve must remain on his moat surrounded rock, otherwise he will infect us all :suspect:

[UTRacerX9]

Sigh. Steve, the so called "gentlemen's agreement" you refer to was to limit a car's output to 276 horsepower... on PAPER. The engines were exceeding that amount for years, but the published specs were held to the 276 horsepower limit. Really man, you need to just call it quits.

[J_Parker]

Sigh. Steve, the so called "gentlemen's agreement" you refer to was to limit a car's output to 276 horsepower... on PAPER. The engines were exceeding that amount for years, but the published specs were held to the 276 horsepower limit. Really man, you need to just call it quits.

He's right Steve, the Soops were in excess of 300hp for many years...

[aaronatstate]

What's with this Steve guy? Is he a troll or what? I can't say I've ever seen him post correct information.

I think so. Hes completely off the deep end. Go look at his "build" thread. It's no wonder he's always got broken ringlands, he's getting 28 counts of knock at WG boost with 880cc injectors. WG boost being 9psi on 20g's. :rolleyes:

I dont even get 28 counts of knock with my 13t's at 18psi with 560cc injectors.

[J_Parker]

I think so. Hes completely off the deep end. Go look at his "build" thread. It's no wonder he's always got broken ringlands, he's getting 28 counts of knock at WG boost with 880cc injectors. WG boost being 9psi on 20g's. :rolleyes:

I dont even get 28 counts of knock with my 13t's at 18psi with 560cc injectors.

The really sad part about his knock count is he thinks in the manner of "that's ALL he's getting" but what hasn't been taken into account by him is that 28 is the highest the stock ECU counts haha.

[IPD]

i'm fairly certain that steve get's a count of knock for every rpm his engine runs at...

[Gearheadvr4]

Maybe he's just trying to wear us down with the pile of crap he post. He has to be knowingly doing it to get a rise. I for one give up. Personalities like that just set the building on fire just to watch it burn. I'm going to ignore it. The OP got the answer he needs hopefully.

I'm out. :Doh:

[IPD]

sometimes i wonder though...if he really believes the shit he says.

[Ninja Performance]

sometimes i wonder though...if he really believes the shit he says.

Every word of it.

-Chris

[Ninja Performance]

From someone who's known for years that N/A heads are on a par with 3sx heads but tried to keep it quiet, due to employment circumstances.

Steve

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never stated that.

-Chris

[aaronatstate]

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never stated that.

-Chris

Off topic, but Chris are you going to make it to NG this year?

[Ninja Performance]

Off topic, but Chris are you going to make it to NG this year?

We are really going to try.

-Chris

[Ray Pampena]

jeez this thread took off lol for all the right reasons.. ok heres the facts.. do what you want with them.

i used to have a cylinder head porter work at my shop. he was well known for the best hand ported LS series heads. he had a superflow SF600 in my shop
SuperFlow Flowbench SF600... (http://www.superflow.com/Flowbenches/sf600.html)
i had him flow some heads for me. the stock TT head flowed FAR better than a stock NA head. he had to heavily port the NA head for it to come anywhere near the TT heads stock numbers. a ported TT head would then pull way ahead again which makes the TT head the better choice.

also, the 6G72 TT engine makes MORE power per psi the the 2JZ.. since i see it regularly tuning cars for a living.

no need to be arrogant.. build something, dyno it and race it and get back to us.

Ray

[2fnloud]

And I bet he will still chime in stating that the N/A heads are the better head.....He gives the name "Steve" a bad stereotype.

[J. Fast]

Anyne have a set of NA heads they want to donor up for actual numbers? I can take them to my buddy Dave Sarnos place. I believe he has a Superflow600 Flowcom.

[aaronatstate]

We are really going to try.

-Chris

Cool. Thats going to be a LONG drive though :lol:


jeez this thread took off lol for all the right reasons.. ok heres the facts.. do what you want with them.

i used to have a cylinder head porter work at my shop. he was well known for the best hand ported LS series heads. he had a superflow SF600 in my shop
SuperFlow Flowbench SF600... (http://www.superflow.com/Flowbenches/sf600.html)
i had him flow some heads for me. the stock TT head flowed FAR better than a stock NA head. he had to heavily port the NA head for it to come anywhere near the TT heads stock numbers. a ported TT head would then pull way ahead again which makes the TT head the better choice.

also, the 6G72 TT engine makes MORE power per psi the the 2JZ.. since i see it regularly tuning cars for a living.

no need to be arrogant.. build something, dyno it and race it and get back to us.

Ray

What about you Ray, you going to NG?


Anyne have a set of NA heads they want to donor up for actual numbers? I can take them to my buddy Dave Sarnos place. I believe he has a Superflow600 Flowcom.

Steve will say (as he did earlier in this thread) that flow bench numbers dont mean jack. He makes a brick look like a freakin genius.

[Ray Pampena]

ill be at NG

[IPD]

goddamn. i'm really bummed about missing NG now. i work for a cruel mistress.


hopefully my car will forgive me if i put more money into her...

[2fnloud]

goddamn. i'm really bummed about missing NG now. i work for a cruel mistress.


hopefully my car will forgive me if i put more money into her...


What!?! thought you was going?

[IPD]

i was. i registered, paid, and everything. and then i got orders.

oh well. i'd originally planned to paint my car for it & everything. then i got distracted in trying to build the engine--and don't have enough left over to paint it. and the engine won't be built in time for NG anyway. i suppose it's just as well. sux that i won't get to participate in this year's historic event. i'd really like to go--if there ever is another one. maybe next time my car will be quasi-finished.

on the plus-side, i'm going to make an extra 5-figures over the next 6 months (in addition to my promotion); so at least i'll be able to get the credit-card back to zero from the 3/s upgrades damage. :)

[2fnloud]

oh wells, looks like I will need to tip back beers with someone else...like THAT will be hard!:D

[Ninja Performance]

i was. i registered, paid, and everything. and then i got orders.

oh well. i'd originally planned to paint my car for it & everything. then i got distracted in trying to build the engine--and don't have enough left over to paint it. and the engine won't be built in time for NG anyway. i suppose it's just as well. sux that i won't get to participate in this year's historic event. i'd really like to go--if there ever is another one. maybe next time my car will be quasi-finished.

on the plus-side, i'm going to make an extra 5-figures over the next 6 months (in addition to my promotion); so at least i'll be able to get the credit-card back to zero from the 3/s upgrades damage. :)

that will let you afford a 3S ;)

-Chris

[shmoo]

goddamn. i'm really bummed about missing NG now. i work for a cruel mistress.


hopefully my car will forgive me if i put more money into her...

i'm sure she'll at least consider it.

i'm not sure if this is even possible, but can i take your spot at a discounted rate at all? i haven't thought this through at all..

And back on topic!:

how can i tell if my heads are twin turbo or not? i think they have G casting marks on them. help meh!

_isiah

[J_Parker]

^ And what the fuck is that relevant to???

[J_Parker]

how can i tell if my heads are twin turbo or not? i think they have G casting marks on them. help meh!

_isiah

I'll run out to my shop and write down all the casting info and post it up.

[dpartinvr4]

Now lets just compare that to this http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/dpartinvr4/2010219894.jpg

[dpartinvr4]

that should make things obvious.

[J_Parker]

On my heads, which are known T/T heads is stamped/cast "01 3-T G"

The 01 should be above all other castings and stamps

the 3-T should be in the middle in n oval shaped indent

and the G should be on it's own down at the bottom in a circular indent.

I also had two T's on both that looked like they were punched.

P.S.

although it's completely irrelevant... The 2JZ head is a piece of shit... That's why I run a 1JZ head on my 2JZ bottom end...

[Boomer3000]

Potato

[Chris GTO TT]

It's not irrelevent at all.

Toyota had to detune the 2JZ head from the 1JZ head (due to the extra 500CCs) in order to keep the power output down to 206Kw as per JDM agreement, for the jap market, in a slightly different way from what Mitsubishi did to the TT heads.

Steve

Its totally irrelevant to this conversation unless you are going to install 2JZ or RB26 heads on your 28 knock count engine.

[J_Parker]

I'm done arguing with you Steve... It's seriously like arguing with a prepubescent little girl "Nuuhh Uuhhh, my mommy said"

[Boomer3000]

Spuds???

[GTOJOE]

It's called S...P..E...L...L...I...N...G... I....T O....U....T for those who are a bit slow on the uptake.

They're japaneese designed and built motors made for the japaneese market (206Kw limit), sold into the US market with slight alterations.
The 2JZ makes more torque than the 1JZ, is faster but nominally still doesn't exceed 206Kw.

Steve

You realize that the 206 agreement was on paper only. Sure they had a gentlemans agreement but they didn't stick to it to the kw. They may not have designed the engines at absolute peak performance cus it would end up way over 206 but all of the engines sold as 206kw are much more. the RB26 was actually 245kw on an engine dyno but on paper 206kw.

[J_Parker]

Fwanks and beeens!!

[stealthee]

You realize that the 206 agreement was on paper only. Sure they had a gentlemans agreement but they didn't stick to it to the kw. They may not have designed the engines at absolute peak performance cus it would end up way over 206 but all of the engines sold as 206kw are much more. the RB26 was actually 245kw on an engine dyno but on paper 206kw.

But. but, that destroys Steve's theory about JDM engines being harder to get power out of than USDM ones.

[Ninja Performance]

Steve68, PLEASE stop talking out of your ass. There are people here that are learning, and just like most of the internet, you are making it very difficult for those persons to learn correct information. So please, just stop. I don't know if you are trying to get a rise out of people by just posting absurd garbage or if you really believe what you type. Whichever it is, just stop. Reputable, known builders/tuners have set the record straight. Deal with it and move on to another forum. Something that doesn't deal in technical aspects of anything.

Anyone reading threads on this forum, please disregard anything posted by steve68, it is incorrect.

-Chris

[aaronatstate]

Steve68, PLEASE stop talking out of your ass. There are people here that are learning, and just like most of the internet, you are making it very difficult for those persons to learn correct information. So please, just stop. I don't know if you are trying to get a rise out of people by just posting absurd garbage or if you really believe what you type. Whichever it is, just stop. Reputable, known builders/tuners have set the record straight. Deal with it and move on to another forum. Something that doesn't deal in technical aspects of anything.

Anyone reading threads on this forum, please disregard anything posted by steve68, it is incorrect.

-Chris

Again, thank you Chris.

[IPD]

i'm sure she'll at least consider it.

i'm not sure if this is even possible, but can i take your spot at a discounted rate at all? i haven't thought this through at all..

And back on topic!:

how can i tell if my heads are twin turbo or not? i think they have G casting marks on them. help meh!

_isiah

my spot is already being taken by another member.

/hijack.

[shmoo]

On my heads, which are known T/T heads is stamped/cast "01 3-T G"

The 01 should be above all other castings and stamps

the 3-T should be in the middle in n oval shaped indent

and the G should be on it's own down at the bottom in a circular indent.

I also had two T's on both that looked like they were punched.

P.S.

although it's completely irrelevant... The 2JZ head is a piece of shit... That's why I run a 1JZ head on my 2JZ bottom end...

sweet, thanks!

i'll let y'all know if i have any other questions.

steve, i don't need you to answer this, lol.
e-squash

i'm 13t with supporting mods. and safc/wideband. i'm not too worried about tracking her or anything, but i just want her to be perfect.

i do want more power, but am not ready for tdo5. i wanna be sure that more things are correct before we even consider going there. since i can't afford it..

i just want her to sound better, run near perfect. blahh.

i'm wanting coilovers, and sorta considering blistens/ some type of springs.. but i'd rather do something more motor related. who needs stability when you have speed?lolhaha

anyways. opinions:

thanks

_isiah

[shmoo]

damn, thanks.

_isiah

[TT4ME]

So, where are we on the global ignore of steve68?

Individual ignores are useless.

[TUFFTR]

Fucking awesome thread.
Do the flow characteristics of the TT head make it unsuited to an N/A application? I have a set of TT heads here, if I ever need to take the heads off the 3.5L Mightaswell put something *better* on. Just wanna know from the undoubted experts here if any advantages at all can be seen from this? if it's that minor you won't even tell, well i wont be in any rush to get them cleaned up then!

[TUFFTR]

Yep, all 3.5L's had the 2nd gen heads which are 3A like you mentioned.

[J_Parker]

Well, our findings are that unless you're going to run in around the range of ~400hp or more, there's not going to be too much of a gain from them.

[J_Parker]

^^ Listen to nothing this boy says...

[TUFFTR]

Cool, I'll swap the heads tonight.



*jokes.

[Ninja Performance]

You'll get good gains from stock 3N heads, afterall they can do 140mph in the 1/4, just like ported 3T heads can.
You could always do before and after dyno tests, that way you'll be an expert too, just like everyone else on here is.

Steve

How do you draw your conclusions? Out of a hat? With crayons?

-Chris

[aaronatstate]

You'll get good gains from stock 3N heads, afterall they can do 140mph in the 1/4, just like ported 3T heads can.

Steve

Yeah with huge ass turbos running 30 pounds of boost they sure can!

[IPD]

steve isn't alone anymore. i've caught colt45gto spreading the backpressure myth.

[2fnloud]

I always thought back pressure in a turbo system was bad.

Oh wait found something interesting:


** RULE: Back pressure in an exhaust system is evil.

Well at least it was pg 119 of my word document.

[Ninja Performance]

I always thought back pressure in a turbo system was bad.

Oh wait found something interesting:



Well at least it was pg 119 of my word document.

He is also wrong.
Corky Bell don't know shit, he didn't even break his ringlands dumbass.

-Chris

[2fnloud]

He is also wrong.
Corky Bell don't know shit, he didn't even break his ringlands dumbass.

-Chris

:lol: Thank you for the gut roll laughter

[Boomer3000]

I know the perfect way to fix broken ring lands!!!!

[2fnloud]

oh do tell!

[Boomer3000]

I throw chuck norris into the engine bay!! and BAM!! Winning!! oh and free potatoes!!

[2fnloud]

Even with the greatness of AWD, we could not properly harness the power that is Chuck.

[Boomer3000]

Even with the greatness of AWD, we could not properly harness the power that is Chuck.

Lol...

[CoopKill]

Even with the greatness of AWD, we could not properly harness the power that is Chuck.

ScoopyDoo can do!

[dpartinvr4]

Even with the greatness of AWD, we could not properly harness the power that is Chuck.
Except my Bruce Lee edition ring lands would own him.

[2fnloud]

touche

[Boomer3000]

Hijack!!!Success!! They call me......The hijacker lol.

[J_Parker]

Hijack!!!Success!! They call me......The hijacker lol.

Actually... Your recent obsession has led people to call you... Potato guy... :p

[Boomer3000]

Actually... Your recent obsession has led people to call you... Potato guy... :p

Really?? Awesome!!! Love it!!!! um, who else has called me that?

[1993RT/TT]

wow i'm really bummed to learn my turbo heads are trash, can i suck sand into my intake to port & polish them? *serious face*

[J_Parker]

Nobody that I can think of... I'm drunkish posting... :suspect:

[Boomer3000]

Nobody that I can think of... I'm drunkish posting... :suspect:

haha lol... Awesome!

[Ninja Performance]

wow i'm really bummed to learn my turbo heads are trash, can i suck sand into my intake to port & polish them? *serious face*

Now come on, only Audi's can do that.

-Chris

[TooFast4Radar]

If Steve keeps posting this rubbish he's going to eventually have someone believe him, do what he says, and then they're going to have broken ring lands and be out a ton of cash. Normally I would be fine to let idiots be idiots, but when giving out bogus information as fact they should be stopped by whatever means necessary.

I didn't want to say anything before because it's his car and if he wants to try something new then by all means, but after this thread that's all out the window. I think that car is a complete clusterfuck and if it makes a complete pass down the track without catastrophic failure I'd be absolutely shocked. I'll actually be shocked if it ever runs well enough again to actually get to the track. What he's done to that car says more about him than anything he can possibly write on the internet regardless of how stupid it may be.

I think his signature should be changed (and locked) to pictures of what he's done to his car and what it looked like brand new. It doesn't take anyone with any knowledge of cars to be able to tell what a moron he is. Realistically you don't even have to look at the 5 stock injectors per cylinder, 3 stock throttle bodies, a 91 crankshaft that he put in his oven and hit with a sledge hammer to try to make it forged, or whatever other kind of retarded things he's done to that car to realize that he's a fool.

[IPD]

reminds me of the post on DSM forums where the a guy (jokingly) suggested you can check the turbos by removing the intake piping, turning the car on, spooling the turbos, and sticking your finger in the spinning blades to see if they stop.

roflmfao.

[TUFFTR]

Went and took piccys of my spare 3N and 3T heads, interesting...like.......I'd like to know the science behind why the 3T heads are used for the TT cars instead of the 3N ones, cause by visually looking at them you'd say the 3N's would flow more.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a52/dodgeviper89/NAhead.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a52/dodgeviper89/TThead.jpg

[2fnloud]

Dunt dunt dunnnnn......the plot thickens

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

If Steve keeps posting this rubbish he's going to eventually have someone believe him, do what he says, and then they're going to have broken ring lands and be out a ton of cash. Normally I would be fine to let idiots be idiots, but when giving out bogus information as fact they should be stopped by whatever means necessary.

I didn't want to say anything before because it's his car and if he wants to try something new then by all means, but after this thread that's all out the window. I think that car is a complete clusterfuck and if it makes a complete pass down the track without catastrophic failure I'd be absolutely shocked. I'll actually be shocked if it ever runs well enough again to actually get to the track. What he's done to that car says more about him than anything he can possibly write on the internet regardless of how stupid it may be.

I think his signature should be changed (and locked) to pictures of what he's done to his car and what it looked like brand new. It doesn't take anyone with any knowledge of cars to be able to tell what a moron he is. Realistically you don't even have to look at the 5 stock injectors per cylinder, 3 stock throttle bodies, a 91 crankshaft that he put in his oven and hit with a sledge hammer to try to make it forged, or whatever other kind of retarded things he's done to that car to realize that he's a fool.

I really hope you just made that up.

[SpdDmnVR4]

^^Dear lord, he can't be serious..

And It does appear that 3N would flow better, however that is not the case.

[J_Parker]

I agree, looks can be deceiving. As far as I've always been told, the best thing for the intake side of the heads is velocity with good flow characteristics. Feel free to correct me if that's wrong :p (Except for Steve)

[J_Parker]

wow i'm really bummed to learn my turbo heads are trash, can i suck sand into my intake to port & polish them? *serious face*

Yes... Yes you can, I may do this myself.








That was a funny read lol.

[SpdDmnVR4]

My brain needs a rest from this. Maybe Ill check back tomorrow, maybe not. Ill have to make a judgment call If I am ready for such ignorance tomorrow.

[GTO Assassin]

Oh magn1t. You've done it again. :lol:

Scotty

[Boomer3000]

Speaking of sheep?
Have you ever had the wool pulled over your eyes?

It's good that people are beginning to open them wide at last.


TUFFTR, you take much better photos than me.


Like I said before, there aren't ANY photos of N/A intake ports on that other forum.....Why?
Photos don't tell lies.

Steve

Shhh......... Have a potato.

[Ray Pampena]

Speaking of sheep?
Have you ever had the wool pulled over your eyes?

It's good that people are beginning to open them wide at last.


TUFFTR, you take much better photos than me.


Like I said before, there aren't ANY photos of N/A intake ports on that other forum.....Why?
Photos don't tell lies.

Steve

instead of being on here arguing... why dont you build a car with these heads.. dyno it and race it. how much power are you making right now? im usually too busy building proven fast cars to be on here debating over somthing that i THINK may be true. i would instead PROVE it to be true then post about it.

[SpdDmnVR4]

Ray, That would just make too much bloody sense. I'd rather argue about it here for ~160+ posts, go against everyone that knows anything, and STILL BE WRONG about it in the end.

Steve, I will give you that it appears that 3N heads will flow better by VISUAL inspection. If someone asked me that question(prior to my reading of this thread), I would have said 3N's look like they flow better. However, SEVERAL REPUTABLE members have come here and said that it is in fact 3T heads that flow better. Why? I would like to know myself, and I am sure someone knows the answer. Until someone has an answer, I will keep my mouth shut.

Also, Being different doesn't necessarily make you a leader. It just makes you different! and Just because people go with proven setups, That doesn't make them sheep/disciples/whatever else you call them, It makes them intelligent! Disciples/sheep imply that we follow blindly, not knowing where we are headed but just have faith that we will arrive, but we aren't. We are following the REAL track tested/dyno proven RESULTS, NOT THEORY!

[RL7]

Anyone know for sure if the 6g72 dohc was used on any vehicles before the 3000gt? I'm still trying to understand mitsubishi's thinking here. We know they designed and produced two different heads. You would expect a logical explanation. Found this:
CarTech, Inc.: Browsing An Introduction to Sport Compact Cylinder Heads (http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showdetl.cfm?st=0&st2=0&st3=0&CATID=21&Product_ID=3561&DID=6)
I don't have time to read all of it now, but it looks like it may have some very helpful info.

[UTRacerX9]

Hmm. What about the valve sizing? Are they the same for the TT and NA? And the cams, do the TT's have higher lift and duration to flow better vs NA? I don't remember for sure but I think I remember that info from way back when.

[RL7]

Hmm. What about the valve sizing? Are they the same for the TT and NA? And the cams, do the TT's have higher lift and duration to flow better vs NA? I don't remember for sure but I think I remember that info from way back when.

Only difference mentioned in the service manual:

Items Non-Turbo Turbo

Valve timing
Intake valve
Opens (BTDC) 16 16
Closes (ABDC) 55” 55”
Exhaust valve
Opens (BBDC) 48 50”
Closes (ATDC) 15 17”

[Unknownvr4]

Anyone know for sure if the 6g72 dohc was used on any vehicles before the 3000gt? I'm still trying to understand mitsubishi's thinking here. We know they designed and produced two different heads. You would expect a logical explanation. Found this:
CarTech, Inc.: Browsing An Introduction to Sport Compact Cylinder Heads (http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showdetl.cfm?st=0&st2=0&st3=0&CATID=21&Product_ID=3561&DID=6)
I don't have time to read all of it now, but it looks like it may have some very helpful info.


No i believe the 3/S was the first (and only? I believe) to receive the DOHC variant of the 6G72

[aaronatstate]

No i believe the 3/S was the first (and only? I believe) to receive the DOHC variant of the 6G72

It most def was not the only vehicle to recieve the DOHC 6G72. The Diamante came with it for sure, and I believe the Montero/Montero Sport also came with them at somepoint in time.

[Unknownvr4]

It most def was not the only vehicle to recieve the DOHC 6G72. The Diamante came with it for sure, and I believe the Montero/Montero Sport also came with them at somepoint in time.

Thats why i had a question mark because i did not know for sure.

[TUFFTR]

Yep Diamante of the same year (1991) had them aswell, so both these car's sort of 'debuted' these engines from the beginning.
my 1991 Diamante is still running after 260Km's! original engine/trans too! (Although you'd think as much since it's myDD/stocker)

[GTO Assassin]

Is it GI time yet or what?

Scotty

[IPD]

Try this service manual

http://www.mivec.co.nz/tech/6G7x_upto_2001.pdf

It's quite good on 74 block info too.

Steve

if i open that link, it will give me cancer, won't it?

[TUFFTR]

if i open that link, it will give me cancer, won't it?

Bahahhahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ninja Performance]

Try this service manual

http://www.mivec.co.nz/tech/6G7x_upto_2001.pdf

It's quite good on 74 block info too.

Steve

Another attempt to divert attention from your TT heads are boat anchors?

-Chris

[Ninja Performance]

Only difference mentioned in the service manual:

Items Non-Turbo Turbo

Valve timing
Intake valve
Opens (BTDC) 16 16
Closes (ABDC) 55” 55”
Exhaust valve
Opens (BBDC) 48 50”
Closes (ATDC) 15 17”

Difference is in the cam.

-Chris

[whitedragon]

If Steve keeps posting this rubbish he's going to eventually have someone believe him, do what he says, and then they're going to have broken ring lands and be out a ton of cash. Normally I would be fine to let idiots be idiots, but when giving out bogus information as fact they should be stopped by whatever means necessary.

I didn't want to say anything before because it's his car and if he wants to try something new then by all means, but after this thread that's all out the window. I think that car is a complete clusterfuck and if it makes a complete pass down the track without catastrophic failure I'd be absolutely shocked. I'll actually be shocked if it ever runs well enough again to actually get to the track. What he's done to that car says more about him than anything he can possibly write on the internet regardless of how stupid it may be.

I think his signature should be changed (and locked) to pictures of what he's done to his car and what it looked like brand new. It doesn't take anyone with any knowledge of cars to be able to tell what a moron he is. Realistically you don't even have to look at the 5 stock injectors per cylinder, 3 stock throttle bodies, a 91 crankshaft that he put in his oven and hit with a sledge hammer to try to make it forged, or whatever other kind of retarded things he's done to that car to realize that he's a fool.

Second. I almost tried to forge my ringlands in my oven so they wouldn't break and then I could be awesome like Steve.

Someone should flagged his posts or something so I didn't blow my car up.

:shake2: ;)

[UTRacerX9]

Difference is in the cam.

-Chris

That's what I thought... I wonder how an NA head would flow with TT cams?

[2fnloud]

That's what I thought... I wonder how an NA head would flow with TT cams?

Wouldn't it just be a kick in the nuts if N/A heads with TT cams was what Doofenshmirtz was trying to convey? Ray you feel like trying that combo and flow testing?

[Ray Pampena]

Wouldn't it just be a kick in the nuts if N/A heads with TT cams was what Doofenshmirtz was trying to convey? Ray you feel like trying that combo and flow testing?
the flow testing is done with no cams at all and you compare flow vs lift

[aaronatstate]

the flow testing is done with no cams at all and you compare flow vs lift

I don't believe you. I only believe what Steve says. :suspect:

[J_Parker]

Wouldn't it just be a kick in the nuts if N/A heads with TT cams was what Doofenshmirtz was trying to convey? Ray you feel like trying that combo and flow testing?

Flow testing is done with no valves or cams, with plugged off guides. a vacuum on the combustion chamber with an airflow meter inline. T/T heads have better flow, and better cams [Debate/]

[J. Fast]

Again, I don't know why this is being debated. The results were posted on CO3S, now stealth316, and have been out for years. However, these results may be skewed if the heads didn't have the same intake and exhaust manifolds.

All the results show is lift vs. flow (like Ray mentioned). Flow does not necessarily mean higher velocity. According to the article RL7 posted... In a turbocharged application you want less flow and more velocity. Apparently there's several different "ideal flow vs. velocty combinations. One for supercharged, one for N/A, one for forced induction, and one for adders, so this is definitely interesting.



Flow bench measurements, stock TT head cfm
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
0.100" 86-93 77-80
0.200" 165-179 151-164
0.300" 223-230 191-200
0.400" 246-262 195-216
0.500" 249-256 196-219
Values from Barry King (Team3S) and Pat (aka PWR on 3SI).
Max vol. flow at 8000 RPM, 100% VE each cyl. bank = 210 cfm.

Flow bench measurements, stock NT head cfm
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
0.100" 84.1 73.5
0.200" 169.0 156.5
0.300" 219.9 185.4
0.400" 233.3 191.1
Values from Paul Prentis (PPE Engineering LLC).
Max vol. flow at 8000 RPM, 100% VE each cyl. bank = 210 cfm.

Flow bench measurements, ported NT head, cfm
Valve Lift Intake Exhaust
0.100" 90.6 96.2
0.200" 174.9 183.5
0.300" 242.3 210.8
0.400" 260.5 218.8
Values from Paul Prentis (PPE Engineering LLC).
Ferrea 1-mm oversized valves installed.


Steve, stay on topic, and quit posting babble. Post up some data to prove your point. Don't just start insulting people. BTW, what do you have to say about this data? Not some other stupid ass heads data... 3000gt DOHC heads, you know, the ones being discussed? The only errors I can see that may exist are testing both heads with the same I & E manifolds vs. different I & E manifolds

[ViperZ]

Not saying that they are better but aren't the NA cams just a little more aggressive than the TT cams? Interesting and entertaining thread :P

[J_Parker]

Well that's how it's initially done up here in Canadaland there big guy, THEN lift vs. flow is taken into account after achieving optimal flow.

[RL7]

Not saying that they are better but aren't the NA cams just a little more aggressive than the TT cams? Interesting and entertaining thread :P

According to the service manual, lift is the same, tt exhaust cam has longer duration. Courtesy of http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html:

"Your na has an Overlap of 31.00 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 251.00 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 243.00 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 109.50 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 106.50 degrees BTDC."

"Your tt has an Overlap of 33.00 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 251.00 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 247.00 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 109.50 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 106.50 degrees BTDC."

[ViperZ]

According to the service manual, lift is the same, tt exhaust cam has longer duration. Courtesy of http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html:

"Your na has an Overlap of 31.00 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 251.00 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 243.00 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 109.50 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 106.50 degrees BTDC."

"Your tt has an Overlap of 33.00 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 251.00 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 247.00 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 109.50 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 106.50 degrees BTDC."

Very interesting info, thanks for posting!

[J. Fast]

You have to remove the colon at the end of his link to get it to work... Camshaft Technology and Calculations (http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html)

That should do it. Second for the link, there's some cool calculators in there RL7.