95 Spyder 6 speed AWD conversion & built 6g74 3.53L -- Start to finish Build Thread!

[Gearheadvr4]

I wanted to keep this secret if possible but that's looking impossible because I will need too much help from the community to figure out the little details that I'm unsure about. Other than engine internals I have done just about everything else on these cars. So the AWD conversion and 6 speed trans swap will be time consuming but nothing I cannot handle without small bit of help. I already have a 92 VR4 complete car to swap every thing over from. I got this Spyder basically stock other than the cracked windshield (that I've replaced already) The top works but has a few issues i'm sorting out. Other than that its drives and rides perfect. I've already done the 99 front end conversion and it turned out great.

This will be a start to finish build thread with the hopes of being done in time for NG. I have an AEM on the way, a 3sx 16g kit already here, plus all the supporting mods ready to go other than the injectors. Still trying to decide what size to go with. I'm thinking 680cc or 720cc? Either way I have an Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator so I can effectively get very close to what I need but adjusting the fuel pressure up or down a little bit. I have two walbro 255lph pumps but I wanted to see if I could get away with just one. I don't want to get to crazy with the fuel just yet.

This is the block I have -- 6g74 built 3.53L

- Fully worked 6g74 block that had only 12k original miles on it. Line bored to 2.6775” using ARP main studs. Decked to a very high finish. Bored and honed with a pair of torque plates and ARP head studs. 0.005” piston to wall clearance.
- Ray’s custom Ross 6g74 pistons – 20 over, supplied by Scott Merkel
- Ray’s custom ring pack – already file fit, supplied by Scott Merkel
- Pauter 6g74 rods supplied by Scott Merkel
- Ray’s tool steel wrist pins supplied by Scott Merkel
- Spiro-locks
- New ARP main studs
- Forged 6g74 crank – custom heat treated to be approximately double the strength/fatigue resistance of a oem 6g74 crank. Cryo treated following heat treatment. Crank has been straightened and has 10-under journals on rods and mains. Finished by one of the best crank shops around.
- New King main/rod/thrust bearings matched to the crank. Designed for 0.002” clearances on mains and rods using King bearings. Slightly looser or tighter tolerances can be had using clevite (looser) or oem mitsu (tighter) bearings.
- 6g74 oil pan (not modified)
- 6g74 lower intake manifold
- 6g74 long block misc parts/pieces (timing, oiling, cooling, etc)

$4.5k into in parts and labor for the block alone.

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/done-1.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/done-2.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/cleaned.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/pistons-done.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/ready.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/th_assembly.jpg (http://s429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/?action=view&current=assembly.mp4)

[Gearheadvr4]

So where I'm at right now is trying to decide what parts to get to finish everything off.

1. Probably going with AEM. I have a Maft Pro but I'm not sure how well the stock ECU and Maft Pro would work with the 3.53L

2. Still trying to figure out what head gasket to use. The pistons are not chamfered and I really do not want to pull it apart to do it.

3. What size injectors? What brand?

4. I have slotted and drilled rotors and excellent brakes already. Can I reuse any of that with the AWD conversion? How different are the ones used on the AWD? I know the fronts are bigger.

5. What radiator and fans?

-- Here are some of the other parts I already have to go in --

3sx 16g td05, full 6 speed AWD conversion from trans to rear, Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator and two walbro fuel pumps, front mount intercooling from PMP. Lots of chrome or polished parts for the engine and a few detail parts for the interior to go along with the complete true black interior from a 98. I have everything from the steering wheel to the seats and carpet. Pioneer touchscreen head unit, Infinity component speakers, sony amp, and infinity sub. Iphone 4 with mount for GPS, music, and maybe even logging.

Lots of other things that I cannot think of right now.

Oh and I almost forgot. I finally after a couple years of searching... I found a replacement Blitz type 03 in 18x9 in the correct offset to complete my set. (A kid had sideswipped me a while back and ruined one of them) These rims where special made in Japan have been discontinued for years and are impossible to find. I found a brand new one in a very unlikely place. So freaking happy !!!

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/blitz1j.jpg

[Emilie@GZP]

Be careful with the rear AWD mounting points. Those pumps and Spyder roof parts are going to be tricky to work around.

[Gearheadvr4]

How different would the rear be underneath? Should be the same since there are of course VR4 spyders too.

[Emilie@GZP]

The pumps and roof components are in the way of where you'd need to cut the body to weld in the AWD mounting points. So, some roof components will most likely need to either be removed, or somehow worked around.

It's the one issue that Hans has been hesitant about tackling on my Spyder, and not very happy with me about :lol: It's the biggest issue that has been keeping him from getting my Spyder on the way to being finished... he just REALLLLLLY doesn't want to do that :lmao:

[IPD]

i'm with em. awd conversion is tricky enough. trying to do it to a spyder is...well.... you'd probably be better off it the frame was 100% stripped before you started.

maf/safc/arc2 can be used well into the 700hp range. if you can hit that on chinabay 16g's and pump gas....something is wrong. AEM is nice, but not necessary, imho.

sounds like you're stuck using a stock 6g74 gasket; as it's the only thing stock bore size (i think, if i'm reading your specs right). i can't say for certain that it's as thick/durable as a 6g72 gasket; so i can't give you any feedback about how well it will hold under boost. remember, 74's were not factory-boosted (unless i missed a rare model somewhere).

stock rad fans; 2" 3sx radiator. period.

you can keep the front brakes you have now. i ran my fwd brakes after the awd conversion for nearly a year. interestingly enough, the fwd brakes have ~ the same pad surface area as the tt brakes; only the shape is different. you can run them, and with upgraded pads/rotors, they'll probably work just fine. that said, they won't handle repeated braking nearly as well--especially compared to 2g tt brakes.

i don't know that injector brand is a big issue--provided you aren't buying el-cheapo crap...and/or they aren't used/beat to hell. 720's will give you a bit more upgrade room. i'm personally going with 680's--but it really doesn't matter much, imho. if you're tuning for bleeding-edge, go with 720's. if you're going to stick to pure-pump (no power adders) like me...680's are probably the max of what you'd need. the price difference between the two is negligible either way.

good luck! i think if i were going fwd atx > awd mtx on a spyder, i'd probably go with a 5-speed. more durable (imho), and it would be the first time in the know history of the 3/s that someone put a 5-speed in a hardtop.

[Emilie@GZP]

good luck! i think if i were going fwd atx > awd mtx on a spyder, i'd probably go with a 5-speed. more durable (imho), and it would be the first time in the know history of the 3/s that someone put a 5-speed in a hardtop.

Sorry, I think a 5spd in a Spyder is just a silly idea. 6spd, with a bellhousing brace, /headaches.

[Emilie@GZP]

I guess this is the Kia? non crossover 24V SOHC block?

You haven't fitted the mounts yet. You'll need to trim a bit off the block to get the rear mount to fit. You'll also need to cut the sump and rebuild it with a TIG.That's to make the transfer case fit. That's better done with just a bare block as you'll end up getting all sorts of shit in it when you do the work.

Steve

Kia? Why would he swap in a SOHC? Did you see the pictures he posted, or skimmed right past the whole first 2 posts?

JDM 6g74 DOHC is a DIRECT BOLT IN, with some VERY minor modifications needing to be made to fit a TT/AWD application.

[Gearheadvr4]

This block is a diamonte style non crossover block. Yes it originally came from a Kia, some of those had 6g74 blocks. I already know it's going to be a challenge and will take some massaging to fit.

Going 6 speed only. Easier on gas, more fun to drive, and still strong after the brace is put in.

Good to know I can keep the brakes but the rotors? They are different? Brand in the injectors I guess is not as important. 720cc probably best.

I think I'm going to try just extending the rear bolts for the rear subframe. A machine shop should be able to make bolts right?

[jba3]

Sorry, I think a 5spd in a Spyder is just a silly idea. 6spd, with a bellhousing brace, /headaches.

Wait a minute....

(runs back to other post)

Yeah, totally sure I just bumped a thread where you put a 5 speed into a spyder SL.

Hmm. :suspect:

Gearhead, I'm guessing you are converting a spyder SL? If you haven't seen Shooter83's AWD conversion threads, definitely check them out.

[Emilie@GZP]

I meant AWD :p

For the Spyder, I wouldn't trust how Shooter did his conversions... Just my opinion though.

[Gearheadvr4]

I meant AWD :p

For the Spyder, I wouldn't trust how Shooter did his conversions... Just my opinion though.

What's so different that you would recommend another way? I want it very strong considering the amount of torque that I could be putting thru the rear end.

[green-lantern]

I'd definitely go with the TT brakes. Going with the power your wanting you need all the brakes you can get.

[IPD]

I meant AWD :p

For the Spyder, I wouldn't trust how Shooter did his conversions... Just my opinion though.

i'm hoping you're simply referencing the differences between coupe & spyder. there's NOTHING wrong with how evan does his conversions. ask digimandan if you don't believe me.

[IPD]

I'd definitely go with the TT brakes. Going with the power your wanting you need all the brakes you can get.

i agree. that said, i think the chief difference is in repeated stops; not single emergency stops.

[Gearheadvr4]

I'm not planning on cutting out any part of the fender wall. Nothing drastic. While I will be referencing some of the shooter method, it will not be a complete conversion like he did.

[IPD]

I'm not planning on cutting out any part of the fender wall. Nothing drastic. While I will be referencing some of the shooter method, it will not be a complete conversion like he did.

"not a complete conversion"? what do you mean? are you referring to his "factory OEM spec conversion? that was only one car, his stealth es. every other conversion he's done uses a less complex method which works great--although it does create a bit of rake to the rear suspension.

[green-lantern]

i agree. that said, i think the chief difference is in repeated stops; not single emergency stops.

My NA brakes did pretty damn good when healthy (new fluids, upgraded pads rotors, properly lubed) but the TT does stop a good bit better. I agree though it really shows up with repetitive braking.

[Gearheadvr4]

Yup, referencing the factory spec he did. I didn't know he did more.

[green-lantern]

Does anybody have any pics of the spyder underneath? I'd like to see the stuff that's in the way.

[green-lantern]

Yup, referencing the factory spec he did. I didn't know he did more.

I got lots of reading for ya man.

Shooter hasn't updated the thread in a while. He still has me as "in progress". You might want to check the end of the thread also. Lots of reading here.

Sorry but a lot is from the other site.
FWD to AWD converted cars.. How many are there now? - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f117/fwd-awd-converted-cars-how-many-there-now-447874/)

http://www.3sgto.org/f17/awd-conversion-engine-build-54.html

[IPD]

yeah, florida3s is MIA--so i can't link my build thread on there. evan's done like 6 of these conversions, so it's a fair assessment that he's got it down to a science.

[jba3]

Does anybody have any pics of the spyder underneath? I'd like to see the stuff that's in the way.

Tell me some specific shots and I'll see what I can do. Only thing is I don't have access to a lift, so the best I can do is jack it up and crawl under. :o

[Gearheadvr4]

Thanks for the links! I'll read up some more. I want to 100% sure on everything before I cut into a Spyder.

What happened to FL3S?

[green-lantern]

Tell me some specific shots and I'll see what I can do. Only thing is I don't have access to a lift, so the best I can do is jack it up and crawl under. :o

Were the VR4 subframe hooks up. Pretty much the same places as the NA.....but different lol.


like this area
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o310/hptech4564/AWD%20conversion/DSCF7847.jpg

[Gearheadvr4]

This could be interesting. I'd bet my bov that it's the same, last time I looked on mine, I didn't see any odd things that would prevent the swap.

[Rocket]

Is the issue that this area needs to be modified for the AWD to mount, and by modifying it the stuff above it is in the way? (pumps, etc for the spyder top?) I seem to remember reading AWD mod threads where this area is heavily modified for the AWD? I could be just rambling also.. it is 2:30am and I need sleep.

[Gearheadvr4]

Under the car I'm hoping it's mostly the same, under the toneau cover it's a lot different. I really don't plan on doing anything in the top area at all.

[IPD]

Is the issue that this area needs to be modified for the AWD to mount, and by modifying it the stuff above it is in the way? (pumps, etc for the spyder top?) I seem to remember reading AWD mod threads where this area is heavily modified for the AWD? I could be just rambling also.. it is 2:30am and I need sleep.

i think the shape of the sheet metal underneath is the same. it's what's hidden by that sheet metal where things get dicier. to do an AWD conversion, you really need to cut the z15/16 mounts for the rear subframe off the car & weld them onto the z11. the only way to do that properly is to cut the z11 parts out.

[Emilie@GZP]

"not a complete conversion"? what do you mean? are you referring to his "factory OEM spec conversion? that was only one car, his stealth es. every other conversion he's done uses a less complex method which works great--although it does create a bit of rake to the rear suspension.

He rethreads the bolts if I'm not mistaken, instead of cutting out the FWD ones and installing the OEM AWD bolts and welding it back together (which would require the removal of all of the Spyder roof components, and support plates between the strut towers).

Neither Hans or I are a huge fan of the support that Shooters method offers. Especially with A) the weight of the Spyder, and B) the performance that you will be putting through it (and what I was planning on putting through mine). We had considered doing it the way Shooter did on my Spyder, but opted against it for peace of mind to the structural integrity of it all.


Just our opinion of it, to each his own.

We wanted an OEM fit and finish. IPD... no matter what method you use for the conversion, the rear suspension will sit at an angle. We had considered having a plate made up to accomodate the angle difference and correct it so the rear suspension would sit straight... but there really aren't enough people doing AWD conversions to justify it. We still *may* look into getting a small batch made, we'll see.

[Emilie@GZP]

Does anybody have any pics of the spyder underneath? I'd like to see the stuff that's in the way.

It's not underneath. well... there is, but most of it is up top, between the strut towers, all of the pumps, computer, wiring, etc. That is where you would need to cut in, to install the AWD mounting bolts (for the "proper" way to do the conversion). Shooters method doesn't require that cutting, as he reverse threads/taps the AWD mounting bolts to thread onto the FWD bolts (IIRC).

[Emilie@GZP]

Thanks for the links! I'll read up some more. I want to 100% sure on everything before I cut into a Spyder.

What happened to FL3S?

Florida 3s is no more. Not sure on the details.

3000GT & Stealths of Florida (http://www.3sofflorida.com) is their new domain

[IPD]

evan doesn't tap/rethread. he uses hollow bolts to thread over. iirc, the same thing paul did on his conversion.

florida3s was evan's. unfortunately, his reclusivenss has caused him to "forget" to do things--like keeping the forum running. it's really sad; evan's a very talented guy.

[Emilie@GZP]

evan doesn't tap/rethread. he uses hollow bolts to thread over. iirc, the same thing paul did on his conversion.

florida3s was evan's. unfortunately, his reclusivenss has caused him to "forget" to do things--like keeping the forum running. it's really sad; evan's a very talented guy.

He tapped the bolt, and threads over the old FWD bolts. That's what I was saying, or trying to at least. :)

[IPD]

he doesn't modify the AWD bolts. he uses custom-made, hollow-bolts. new ones.

[Emilie@GZP]

Close enough, that's why I said "IIRC"

[Gearheadvr4]

The bolt he uses seem strong enough, they look high quality. For that setup you would have to sheer off the stock NA mounts too right? The stock bolts are a bit thinner but I cannot imagine I would make enough torque to do that.

I haven't decided on one method. It will probably depend on what's in the way of the mount and my confidence level that I can get the top adjusted back to stock. I love my top and I'm so thankful that it works. If it ever breaks I have zero replacement parts and i have no idea how to fix it. That will be a sad day.

[Gearheadvr4]

Here are the pistons up close.

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/f7084130.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/0593503b.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/a675bb89.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/4663bdc2.jpg

[Gearheadvr4]

I believe this is a stock gasket and it seems like it will work. Pretty sure this is the one I put only 500 miles on. Can I reuse it? Has 72d4 markings. Ray looked at them from some pics i sent and they are possibly chamfered. If there is a cut it's very slight and I missed it at first glance. It's maybe a 1 mm 45 degree cut. A uncut piston has a straight knife edge?

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/43fcd885.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/d7485280.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/b049cc73.jpg

[Gearheadvr4]

Just showed up on my doorstep 15min ago!

I want to verify that everything is working with it. What do I need to do just to check the AEM? Can I hook it up directly and just start it? Does the AEM absolutely need an wideband O2 and the IAT sensor? Can it use stock signals to test and just drive it around the block?

I'm buying a serial to USB cable today so I can try the AEM software. But before I even do that I want to know it's ok to put into and NA and not damage anything. (unlikely but not wanting to take any chances)

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/67f48639.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/03032436.jpg

[Gearheadvr4]

Picked these up!!

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/d23a8ba9.jpg

[J-Groove]

Great build thread!

Thanks for sharing, you weren't kidding at the TX gathering that you had big plans for her!

-John

[Gearheadvr4]

Everything is going much slower than I'd like. Life keeps finding a way to take up all my time. I wish I could just lock myself in the garage for a week with like 10 bags of funyuns and a case of Dr Pepper so I could finish it.

My wife once said that if I love that car so much I should sleep with it. I may take her up on that. NG is fast approaching.



http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1856753/how_funyuns_are_made/

[Gearheadvr4]

Few more progress pics. Pulling the AWD components from the aft half of a stealth TT and also working on the complete black interior conversion from a 98. Every black peice is being swapped down the the carpet.... Everything. Also reconditioning the parts as I go. Swapped the wire harness also on the dash for the minor differences like boost and auto air.

This will look like a completely different car inside when I'm done.


http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/ad28be3e.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/7f42a0bd.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/736cced3.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/fd212a08.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/359fab21.jpg

[Emilie@GZP]

Are you going to dye the seat backs, and upper Spyder specific panels, or recover them?

I really need to get Hans back to working on my Spyder... damnit!! :lol:

[Gearheadvr4]

Probably recover them. I did a test fit with my leather replacement set and I'm pretty sure I modify them.

[green-lantern]

Nice! I know how much work this is, good luck getting it to NG. lol

[Gearheadvr4]

No kidding! I feel the pressure now for sure. Worst case scenario I'll just throw some seats in the VR4 parts car (which is pretty much still a complete car) and drive it up.

[IPD]

why in gods name would you sacrifice a working vr4 for this? i got my subframe from a wrecked one.

[Gearheadvr4]

No working VR4 vehicles were harmed in the making of this build. It was cut from a rear clip of someones parts car. Literally it was just the back half of the car.

Oh, and I received my new radiator in today finally! Also ordered a Top Link Converter from JNS Engineering. I want the top in perfect shape.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2r40nwx.jpg

[Gearheadvr4]

Finally getting some real work done. Decided to get the VR4 doner car complete and running first so I have a ride while I'm finishing the spyder.

-- Major parts removed --

- Both rear subframes removed
- PS and AWD fluid lines
- Pulled the NA 3.0 engine and mounts from the spyder
- both engine harnesses
- dash and center consoles
- exhausts (borla is going into the spyder)
- complete suspension and steering racks swapped
- pulled brake boosters and clutch assemblys
- lots of other little things pulled and swapped.

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/563920_3248647107177_1596938491_2622661_223850523_ n.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/394885_3203562740096_1596938491_2601288_1956529485 _n.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/486023_3203570300285_1596938491_2601291_1619361611 _n.jpg

[futurevr4man]

congrats on the progress! what did you ever find out about the pistons chamfer? will they work with the stock HG?!

you have quite a bit of work ahead of you. i will be keeping a close eye on this. interesting build to say the least

[Gearheadvr4]

After careful measurement and consideration I'm going with the stock 6g72 gasket. The piston will just barely clear the gasket or if it does hit, it will chamfer itself.

It's been a good bit of work so far since everything I do is doubled for both cars, but nothing actually hard to do. . The fun part will be the rear subframes when I reinstall them.

[sketch]

subscribed.

[Gearheadvr4]

Cut a hole in the firewall this morning and installed the clutch pedal, master cyl and lines.

Also, dropped the NA engine into the donor car.

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/d6608692.jpg

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq12/gearheadvr4/080f4955.jpg

[Uniuno]

Necro thread revival! Did this car ever get finished?

[sketch]

Necro thread revival! Did this car ever get finished?

bump 9.5/11

[ ] complete build documented
[x] would read again.