IM INNOCENT (I think) Help me fight my Citation! (Fail to stop/yield)

[vlorion]

Alright so I got a ticket about 2 weeks ago, and the ticket says DRIVING-STOP SIGN-FAIL TO STOP AND/OR YIELD FROM. So I guess I'll start with the story.

I was doing some homework one night at my friend's apartment. Here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bengal+Creek+Apartments,+2100+South+2nd+Avenue,+ Pocatello,+ID+83201-6901&aq=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=29.716225,86.572266&ie=UTF8&hq=Bengal+Creek+Apartments,&hnear=2100+S+2nd+Ave,+Pocatello,+Bannock,+Idaho+83 201&ll=42.850335,-112.426175&spn=0.001675,0.005284&t=h&z=18) is a link to the google map of the place.
So I was at where the red arrow is on the map. I followed that road that goes diagonally away from it and took a right on 4th street, which is a one way. I went down 4th a little ways, then turned left on Ford St., which isn't really even a street, it's pretty much a little path through a big parking lot. I then went all the way up to 5th street and took a left turn on 5th, which is a one-way going left on the map. It was late at night and I was tired so I didn't come to a complete stop when I turned, I was going maybe 2 mph around the turn. When I turned, there was a car in my lane, but it was plenty far enough back that I definitely did not cut him off. He was about at where the "S" is on the "S 5th Ave" is on the map. Of course, that car just happened to be a cop.

Anyways, he pulled me over and asked me if there was a reason why I ran the stop sign back there. I told him I was just tired and still had more homework and just wanted to get home. He also said that it was no big deal, he didn't have to even touch the brake, just let off the gas a LITTLE bit. He took all my insurance stuff and came back with a DRIVING-STOP SIGN-FAIL TO STOP AND/OR YIELD FROM citation. After that I just went home.

The next day, I was on my way home from a friend's house and drove by the place where I "ran" the "stop sign", and to my surprise, there was no stop sign or stop line. If I would have noticed this the night before, I would have told the cop that there wasn't one, but I just figured that since he pulled me over there had to be one there. I went back and took some pictures of the sign and the ground where there would be a stop line if it had one....

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/vlorion/1297146077.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/vlorion/1297146111.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/vlorion/1297146388.jpg

I looked up the Idaho code for the violation that the citation was written out for. Here it is:

TITLE 49
MOTOR VEHICLES
CHAPTER 8
SIGNS, SIGNALS AND MARKINGS
49-807. STOP SIGNS AND YIELD SIGNS. (1) Preferential right-of-way may be
indicated by stop signs or yield signs as authorized in section 49-212, Idaho
Code.
(2) Except when directed to proceed by a peace officer or traffic-control
signal, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop:
(a) at a clearly marked stop line, or
(b) before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection,
or
(c) at the point nearest the intersecting highway where the driver has a
view of approaching traffic on the intersecting highway before entering
it.
After having stopped, the driver shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle
in the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely as to
constitute an immediate hazard during the time when such driver is moving
across or within the intersection or junction of highways.

So the question is now, do any of you think that I could get this ticket dropped, since there is no stop sign, yield sign, or stop line? I really don't feel like paying $85 for this and getting more points on my record, since it is a moving violation...

[93STLTH]

It would help if you had a date stamp on the photos, but it seems pretty obvious that the officer was in error for citing you and any decent judge should dismiss the charge. Also, the road sign indicates that it's a private road, so the officer shouldn't have any jurisdiction there, only on public roads.

[3KVT]

It would help if you had a date stamp on the photos, but it seems pretty obvious that the officer was in error for citing you and any decent judge should dismiss the charge. Also, the road sign indicates that it's a private road, so the officer shouldn't have any jurisdiction there, only on public roads.

This is dead on. If there is no sign, how can you disobey it?

[HilbillyHomeboy]

Glad I read it all the way through. At first I thought, you just admitted you did it! :D

Yeah, I think you have a legitimate case for sure. There's nothing, technically, that says you have to stop or yield. :)

Jeremy

[MaxClass]

At most it seems like the only thing they could get you for, if any, is 'failure to yield the right of way'.

Did notice that on the "Ford Rd" sign it says "PVT". If you are on a private road and not a city or county road then the police have no jurisdiction. Just as they can not cite you for running a "Stop" sign in a Wal-Mart parking lot because it is on private property.

I would do my best to find out if the police officer had "jurisdiction" at that intersection. If, in fact he did not, then the court has to throw the ticket out because the officer was operating "outside of his jurisdiction" and therefore has no "authority" whatsoever. Any citation can only be given within an area that police have "jurisdiction" over.

Sounds to simple, but, all law comes down to "jurisdiction". Without "jurisdiction" no "authority" exists.

Did this officer have "jurisdiction" at this location? Either he did or he did not.

Something else you might check. If you can get hold of the County Sheriff talk to him directly. He may have an answer for you, especially if it is in county territory and not within "city limits".

Best of luck. Remember, "If you don't know your rights you don't have any"

[CoopKill]

It would help if you had a date stamp on the photos, but it seems pretty obvious that the officer was in error for citing you and any decent judge should dismiss the charge. Also, the road sign indicates that it's a private road, so the officer shouldn't have any jurisdiction there, only on public roads.


Actually they have jurisdiction anywhere there is a safety risk, or law disobeyed. Since he was turning on to a public road he definately has.

Due to the fact there was not any traffic control lacated at the location in which he received the traffic control ticket, it's a no brainer. Judge will throw it out.

Now if he would have wrote a wreckless ticket you'd be toast whether or not it was a safety issue.

His word against yours.

You have the evidence on your side!


__________________________________________________ ____________________

Tapatalk Bitches! :transform:

[Danube_3KGT]

I don't think you have a SOLID solid case..it wouldn't be running a stop sign, but it could easily been a failure to yield. The Walmart ordeal for example.. An officer can't give you a speeding ticket in their parking lot because its private property, BUT! they can give you a ticket if you pull out of the parking lot in front of on coming traffic. Read this again..

(c) at the point nearest the intersecting highway where the driver has a
view of approaching traffic on the intersecting highway before entering
it.

That at least sounds to me like, as you're pulling out on the street you have to stop to make sure there is no traffic coming, or at least yield.. In your case he probably gave you the ticket because you didnt "yield" to the on coming traffic. It being a private road has no play in this because you were pulling out into a public road. If you backed out of your drive way and got hit it would be your fault, same situation.. If anything the private road may hurt you. Because you werent on a public main road they probably have the right away over a car coming down a private road..

Basically my word of advice is go to court anyway, even though the cop had a lawful reason to write the ticket, he has to show up to court to fight it or you win automatically.. go to court and hope its not worth his time to show up..

[sketch]

go to court. no brainer. easy throw out.

in addition, if he shows up to court and uses written notes to jog his memory regarding the circumstances, you can object to his testimony right away. the witness must have a clear memory of events. i've used this one before and got the ticket thrown out, basically the equivalent of the cop not showing up to court (i.e. win by default).

During court proceedings, witnesses are expected to answer all questions put to them. However, cases frequently come to trial some time after the events at issue, and witnesses often are unable to recollect events clearly. However, witnesses are discouraged from referring to documents during proceedings, because if the witness has little or no recollection of the events mentioned, the document is effectively Hearsay.
source (http://www.lawiki.org/lawwiki/Witness_Refreshing_Memory)

[jba3]

"DRIVING-STOP SIGN-FAIL TO STOP AND/OR YIELD FROM"

No stop sign? No case. The judge should throw it out. Ideally, he shouldn't charge any court costs, as it's there error.

That's like them giving you a ticket for failing to salute the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I wouldn't say that in court, though. ;)

[Danube_3KGT]

"DRIVING-STOP SIGN-FAIL TO STOP AND/OR YIELD FROM"

No stop sign? No case. The judge should throw it out. Ideally, he shouldn't charge any court costs, as it's there error.

That's like them giving you a ticket for failing to salute the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I wouldn't say that in court, though. ;)

are you missing the "OR YIELD FROM" if he's coming off a private road onto a public street he legally has to yield to on coming traffic, like pulling out of a parking lot into traffic. There doesn't have to be a stop sign at every parking lot exit for people to know if a cars coming you cant pull out. I believe the police officer was in the right with that he gave, even if it is a asshole reason.. at the same time, is this guy telling the whole story? was the cop really that far away? Im not calling anyone a liar, but he pulled out of a private road onto a public road. if there was traffic coming he had the legal responsibility to stop and yield to on coming traffic..

[Danube_3KGT]

"DRIVING-STOP SIGN-FAIL TO STOP AND/OR YIELD FROM"

No stop sign? No case. The judge should throw it out. Ideally, he shouldn't charge any court costs, as it's there error.

That's like them giving you a ticket for failing to salute the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I wouldn't say that in court, though. ;)

are you missing the "OR YIELD FROM" if he's coming off a private road onto a public street he legally has to yield to on coming traffic, like pulling out of a parking lot into traffic. There doesn't have to be a stop sign at every parking lot exit for people to know if a cars coming you cant pull out. I believe the police officer was in the right with what he gave you, even if it is a asshole reason.. at the same time, is this guy telling the whole story? was the cop really that far away? Im not calling anyone a liar, but he pulled out of a private road onto a public road. if there was traffic coming he had the legal responsibility to stop and yield to on coming traffic..

[jba3]

are you missing the "OR YIELD FROM" if he's coming off a private road onto a public street he legally has to yield to on coming traffic, like pulling out of a parking lot into traffic. There doesn't have to be a stop sign at every parking lot exit for people to know if a cars coming you cant pull out. I believe the police officer was in the right with that he gave, even if it is a asshole reason.. at the same time, is this guy telling the whole story? was the cop really that far away? Im not calling anyone a liar, but he pulled out of a private road onto a public road. if there was traffic coming he had the legal responsibility to stop and yield to on coming traffic..

It's irrelevant. The "or yield from" means yielding from the stop sign as cited, as in not yielding right-of-way. If he was cited for a stop sign and no stop sign exists, the citation is invalid. If you take the whole citation as he posted it as individual bits delimited by dashes, then it reads as if he was cited for driving - which is clearly not the case, unless he's going around on a suspended or non-existent license.

If he was cited for JUST failure to yield, not the stop sign, then yes, he would be guilty if he didn't yield - but that's not what he was cited for as he's written it in this context. It's like charging someone with speeding, the officer losing the case, then saying "well his windows are illegally tinted too" ... great ... but if the citation wasn't written for that, it doesn't matter until he's charged with it - speaking in terms of traffic court, of course.

Whether or not we have the "whole story" or "truth" isn't my concern. I'm commenting specifically on the situation and citation as he's posted it.

[2fnloud]

It's irrelevant. The "or yield from" means yielding from the stop sign as cited, as in not yielding right-of-way. If he was cited for a stop sign and no stop sign exists, the citation is invalid. If you take the whole citation as he posted it as individual bits delimited by dashes, then it reads as if he was cited for driving - which is clearly not the case, unless he's going around on a suspended or non-existent license.

If he was cited for JUST failure to yield, not the stop sign, then yes, he would be guilty if he didn't yield - but that's not what he was cited for as he's written it in this context. It's like charging someone with speeding, the officer losing the case, then saying "well his windows are illegally tinted too" ... great ... but if the citation wasn't written for that, it doesn't matter until he's charged with it - speaking in terms of traffic court, of course.

Whether or not we have the "whole story" or "truth" isn't my concern. I'm commenting specifically on the situation and citation as he's posted it.

I don't think you are incorrect, this isn't any different than if he pulled out of a driveway or parking lot. Those do not have stop signs either but if is police officer saw him pull out in front of someone the officer would issue a ticket for the same thing. I think it is going to boil down to the judges interpretation of the verbiage.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't sound like our OP blatantly pulled out in front of the car. But if the officer had to let off the accelerator, in that officer's opinion you failed to yield.

I don't think this is going to be as easy to win as everyone is stating. Good Luck.

[Jacob6875]

I don't think you are incorrect, this isn't any different than if he pulled out of a driveway or parking lot. Those do not have stop signs either but if is police officer saw him pull out in front of someone the officer would issue a ticket for the same thing. I think it is going to boil down to the judges interpretation of the verbiage.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't sound like our OP blatantly pulled out in front of the car. But if the officer had to let off the accelerator, in that officer's opinion you failed to yield.

I don't think this is going to be as easy to win as everyone is stating. Good Luck.

The thing is though if the officer stopped him for pulling out in front of him wouldn't he get a ticket for failing to yield to oncoming traffic and not failing to stop at a stop sign?

To me it seems like the officer made a mistake and gave him the wrong ticket or something.

[stealthee]

It doesn't matter that there is not a stop sign. You still have to stop at the intersection. There is no stop sign because it is a private road. It also doesn't matter that he was coming from a private road because he was pulling onto a main road. Its no different than pulling out of your driveway. Its an implied stop.

[2fnloud]

I will /thread right here:

Taken from the Idaho DMV (http://itd.idaho.gov/dmv/driverservices/documents/DLChapter2.pdf)


STOP when entering a street from an alley, building, driveway, or private road. Stop before crossing the sidewalk and yield to pedestrians and traffic.

If there is no stop line or crosswalk, stop before entering the intersection, but close enough to see cross traffic. (this bit was part of the first bullet under "STOPPING")

And


Yielding to Other Drivers
You must yield to other drivers:

* At an unmarked or uncontrolled intersection (no signs or signals).
If two vehicles arrive at the same time, the vehicle on the left must
yield to the vehicle on the right.

You stated that you was turning left off of Ford on to 5th, this proves that the officer was on the right side of the intersection and you on the left, He had to let off the accelerator.

So take your pick:

According to the Idaho DMV manual I found, you was suppose to yield to him.

or

According to the Idaho DMV manual I found, you was suppose to stop when entering a street from a private road. (Your picture even shows "PVT" on the road sign.)

Pay the ticket, chalk it up as a lesson in life.

[stealthee]

I will /thread right here:

Taken from the Idaho DMV (http://itd.idaho.gov/dmv/driverservices/documents/DLChapter2.pdf)



And



You stated that you was turning left off of Ford on to 5th, this proves that the officer was on the right side of the intersection and you on the left, He had to let off the accelerator.

So take your pick:

According to the Idaho DMV manual I found, you was suppose to yield to him.

or

According to the Idaho DMV manual I found, you was suppose to stop when entering a street from a private road. (Your picture even shows "PVT" on the road sign.)

Pay the ticket, chalk it up as a lesson in life.

This is the answer to this one. I just did a quick google and didn't go as far as finding the Idaho laws. Basically, you are screwed. Learn to stop next time. There are sometimes tickets that can be gotten out of, this won't be one of them.

[Danube_3KGT]

there you go guys.. thats what I was saying..

As for the "disecting the charge" thing.. Let me explain it to you, without trying to sound like I am just arguing..

(I work at a jail and enter in charges all the time)

When they put "DRIVING-STOP SIGN-FAIL TO STOP AND/OR YIELD FROM"" they are saying

Driving: It was a driving offense
-STOP SIGN: there was either a stop sign or an implied stop (as in the state laws)
Fail to stop and/or yield from: That refers to the fact that he failed to either come to a complete stop or yield to on coming traffic.

Theres a bunch of charges that will say Doing this and/or that because in reality they are close to the same thing or are pretty much the same charge.

Thats what I was trying to say.. basically it was a traffic violation.. probably under 200.00.. I'd either just pay the ticket.. or hope the officer doesn't show up for a small traffic violation..