Megan Racing Coilovers keep changing height as I drive.

[3000GTPro]

I have this problem where my coilovers in the front keep what seem to me to be loosening up via the bottom locking ring that is supposed to be keeping the ride height in place and independently of the the 2 rings locked together for the spring rates. I can't honestly remember when I last adjusted them, but it seems no matter how much I tighten the rings, my ride height always seems to change on me. And I'm just enjoying them on the street. Is anyone else dealing with this issue?

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i313/degamer/My%20Car/Picture024-1.jpg

[97Pearl3KGT]

Subscribed, planning on purchasing this month...

[mcshooter]

no problem so far, not sure if you could use the blue locktight on the aluminum treads.

[Maximal]

Just make sure the lock nut is tight against the adjustment one. Mine actually loosened up once and I didn't have any adjustment of height surprisingly so I'm not sure what you have going on there. Any pics of what's happening and how it's setup?

[3000GTPro]

This is one of my rears before I first installed them, but it can still show you what I'm talking about. My problem is that single bottom ring that is supposed to lock the threaded shock portion of the coilover from moving. When you loosen that ring you can change the hight independently of the spring rates. I had to re-tighten that bottom ring again recently. I asked one member on Norcal3s who had these on his 93 VR4, and he said neither he or one other member with a gen1 NA 3000GT deal with this problem. Maybe I'm not getting that ring tight enough (I'm not what I would call muscular)? No matter how you look at it, I am getting these rings as tight as I possibly can, and it still doesn't seem to be enough.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i313/degamer/My%20Car/Picture024-1.jpg

:edit: First post has been updated with this picture.

[hdnixon]

I've heard of this problem before when researching coilovers. Seemed to happen mainly on track cars and always on megans. Unfortunatly i dont have a solution for you.

[3000GTPro]

I would think that it would be more manageable on track cars because they would be worked on a lot, and just make sure they're tight on a regular basis anyway. If you have heard of this problem before, I wish I had done more research than just buy them like I did.

[stealthee]

Haven't had that issue in 3.5 years and 40k + miles of use on my Megans

[Hans@GZP]

Use a hammer on the spanner wrench to tighten it.

[3000GTPro]

I could try that... The spanner wrenches are kinda small though. I'll give it a shot. Still, I'm surprised that I didn't think of that earlier. :Doh:

[stealthee]

Cheater pipe. It works wonders

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

loctite?

[3000GTPro]

Eh...locktight though I think unlikely, could possibly help. Using a hammer or cheater bar sounds more effective, but I'm not completely sure if it will solve my problem. One or both could be worth a try. I will bring this thread up again when I find out if these ideas work. Theoretically, I think more leverage will help make this at least allow me to keep them to stay put long enough between service intervals.

[Hans@GZP]

I tightened mine with a hammer to the spanner wrench and I've never had them loosen up on me in over a year.

[GTO Assassin]

Sorry if I'm late to the party, but you should really change your username.

Scotty

[Mike-92RT]

Sorry if I'm late to the party, but you should really change your username.

Scotty

Sorry if I'm late to the party, but you should really shut the hell up buddy. No need to bash on here. Thats what this forum is for, to ask questions and for help. No such thing as a stupid question.

[GTOX]

I am also sorry for being late to the party (I lost the invite).

The old hammer to the wrench trick worked well for me on my previous troublesome coilovers (not megans). Don't be shy, give it a good whack and you should be sweet.

[GTO Assassin]

Sorry if I'm late to the party, but you should really shut the hell up buddy. No need to bash on here. Thats what this forum is for, to ask questions and for help. No such thing as a stupid question.

I didn't bash the guy or his post. Just offered some advice.

Scotty

[GTOJOE]

You will have to forgive Scotty. He's just in a bad mood cus skippy is ignoring him today :lol:

[3000GTPro]

I didn't bash the guy or his post. Just offered some advice.

Scotty

I'm not sure advice about my choice for a screen name is appropriate in this thread.

[GTO Assassin]

You will have to forgive Scotty. He's just in a bad mood cus skippy is ignoring him today :lol:

You know the worlds against you when even the fucking Aussies are using roo jokes. lol

Scotty

[DG]

The proper solution is to remove the junk shocks and replace them with a real shock, like a Bilstein.

Honestly guys, there is an off the shelf Bilstien application for this car; if you didn't want to keep the OEM active suspension (which works surprisingly well on a street car) that's the way to go.

The temporary fix is to pick up a set of 2.5" Torrington bearings and install them between the spring seat and the spring. Not only does this sharply reduce the amount of stiction in the spring (almost as good as a Hypercoil hydraulic perch for a fraction of the cost) but it eliminates the rotary jacking force that is unscrewing your spring seat collars.

More details can be found on Autocross to Win.

DG

[3000GTPro]

I just did a quick google, and I'm not sure how you can put any other shocks in Megan coilovers. I actually don't know how you take these things apart beyond loosening the rings and unscrewing the threaded lower half completely, but I have wondered if that's just a sleeve, or if it's part of the oil filled shock itself. I have an exploded view that gives me the impression that the shock is threaded for the coilover.

The bearing idea however sounds great. I'll check that out.

[DG]

Yes, the spring perches screw directly onto the shock body, so the entire shock must be replaced to get rid of it.

This is a good thing. Those shocks are utter garbage. They are, at best, ballast.

All decent shock companies make threaded sleeves that slide over their shock bodies and rest against a snap ring. These things have a bad reputation amongst the riceboi set because somehow they aren't "real" enough. Quite the contrary, these threaded sleeves work quite well and have the added benefit that damage to the threads on the collar doesn't ruin your shocks.

Very high end racing shocks (like Penske) use threaded bodies, but the shocks are serviced after each race and the bodies are replaceable (they're a sleeve that the top and bottom end caps thread into) There's no good reason to use a threaded body shock on a street car; it really doesn't buy you anything at all - except, typically, more weight (yes, steel threaded body shocks are heavier than smooth body shocks with a slide-on sleeve)

The only issue with the slide-on sleeve is that the OEM fitment shocks typically place the spring seat snap ring groove in a location compatible with the OEM spring seat height. This may or may not be a reasonable place for the groove to go to mount the threaded sleeve. To fix, you either cut a new snap ring groove into the shock body, or you use a threaded sleeve where the internal "shoulder" is located to place it in the right place relative to the OEM spring perch groove height. Ground Control is pretty good at this.

Oh, and don't be hornswaggled by the secondary height adjuster on the foot of the Megan (and other crappy shocks) that supposedly allows the setting of ride height without changing spring preload. Bogus! It does too change spring preload - extra complexity, weight, and points of failure for NOTHING.

Seriously, the best thing you can do is pull those Megans off and throw them away. Then get Bilsteins, Ground Control threaded sleeves, and a set of Hypercoil springs. You will have a far, FAR better handling car, the setup will be lighter, more reliable, and ultimately cheaper.

Friends don't let friends buy Japanese or Chinese shocks. JIC, Tein, Megan - these are all GARBAGE.

DG

[stealthee]

I would NEVER put Ground Controls on after having Megans. Megans ride well. Ground Controls do not even compare.

[J. Fast]

I've gotta side with DG on this one. I would pick a Bilstein w/ground control over a Megan all day long. It's definitely not my ideal setup but for the sake of comparison if they were both corner balanced my decision would be quite simple, Bilstein. Why are you opposed to them Stealthee?

[IPD]

i'm not one to bash, but i'm thinking DG works for bilstein.

most of the people who put coilovers on their cars are NOT using them for racing; and that is precisely why a $500 set of ebay nex coilovers is perfectly suited to the task.

imho, megans are a great choice for our platform, but so are D2's and ksports (the "budget" level). if i was demanding of my suspension system, i'd upgrade beyond those three; but i wouldn't stop till i hit KW--or at least a set with external reserviors.

been 2 months that i rode on my d2's and i have ZERO complaints about them--other than perhaps that they are a very slight bit firmer than stock (on the softest setting). and honestly, that's what i'd expect from any coilover.

[jba3]

Ground controls/bilsteins don't provide adjustable damping, do they?

[DG]

I'm in the Army, but a few years ago I owned my own race team. That team did so well that I was hired on as the race engineer for a Corvette team, and as a side business, we built/rebuilt and sold shocks.

I had my own personal shock dyno, and I dynoed hundreds of different shocks. Almost every single manufacturer (less, oddly, JRZ) crossed my dyno, and I got to see how they did.

I also rebuilt Penske and Bilstein, and specified Koni. Koni wouldn't let me rebuild shocks; they have been bit by too many fly-by-night "shock tuners" and are very picky about who they allow to service their shocks. (A decision I understood, although it was annoying, because I had plenty of potential customers who were tired of the people who were allowed to service Koni and who wanted be to do their rebuilds. It sucked having to turn business away.

So I didn't work for any shock company, and I was free to build and sell whatever worked best. I also made a point of including a dyno plot for each and every shock I sold (even off the shelf, un-revalved stuff) so that you knew EXACTLY how THAT SPECIFIC SHOCK performed. Not "representational" plots, not "ideal" plots, but YOUR shock got dynoed and you got the plots for YOUR shock.

If I revalved your shock, you got the shimstack list too. It's YOUR shock - why should I try and hide the valving from you? All the secret squirrel bullshit some "shock tuners" do is just horseshit and usually an attempt to cover up their ignorance.

Anyway, the huge surprise I got when I got into that business was just how shitty most aftermarket shocks were. And I don't mean "valving didn't match the springs" (although there was a lot of that too) but stuff like:

- Adjusters that didn't work;

- Adjusters, that as you went from hard to soft, went from soft to hard to soft;

- Four shocks, same part number, no force overlap anywhere in the adjustment range;

- Two shocks, same part number, valvings mirror images (meaning a shimstack was installed upside down);

- Shocks with "rebound adjusters" that crosstalked so hard to compression that they were actually compression adjusters with a little bit of rebound crosstalk;

- "16 way" adjusters that only had two settings;

and the list goes on and on. It was an utter parade of horror.

By far the worst culprits were Japanese and Chinese tuner shocks. Customer after customer would show up with pretty green, purple, or orange shocks, and they'd go on the dyno, and the dyno would show the truth - garbage.

The first time it happened, I thought the dyno was fucked up. I couldn't believe a brand new shock was that bad. I must have ran that shock a dozen times, and finally checked my reference shock (a box stock C5 Z06 shock that I kept around as a sanity check) and it dynoed out exactly the same as the last time I ran it. I finally had to admit the dyno was working, I was making no procedural mistake, and the shock really WAS that bad.

The only shocks worth anything are Penske, Bilstein, Koni, Ohlins, Dynamic Suspension, and Sachs. Everything else was garbage. And not "DG is a super picky uber racer elitist asshole" but "that shock does not pass basic quality control" - and we haven't even gotten to discussing valving yet, which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Penske, Ohlins, Dynamic Suspension, and Sachs are all Real Race Car stuff that is really overkill for a street car. No street car needs Penskes, because Penske's biggest advantage is that their adjusters work nearly flawlessly (and they are completely modular so they are easy to rebuild and most can be rebuilt and repaired after the car hits the wall) Street cars don't have the instrumentation on them to really make use of that - how many of you have suspension position sensors logged at 500 Hz on your street cars? So unless your goal in life is to just spend ridiculous coin on shiny bits so you can be more extreeeeme than the other guy, these shocks are overkill.

That leaves Koni and Bilstein.

Bilsteins are awesome. Bilstein uses the exact same internal parts on every single one of their shocks. All the pistons are interchangeable (for a given tube diameter, they have two) all the shim stacks are the same materials, all the bits are made to the same standard. The parts in a $100 Bilstein HD are the EXACT SAME used in their high-end NASCAR and road race shocks. Any two Bilsteins with the same part number will dyno within 1% of each other, and when they make a fitment for a street car, it FITS. They strong, reasonably light (although not weight weenie light) and they can go for nearly forever without service. And when you do service them, parts are CHEAP because they make them by the millions.

The only downsides to Bilsteins is they take a little bit of work to make rebuildable, and (up until very recently) you got no knobs. Yes, they made the PSS9 with a knob, but the adjuster was junk and the knob detent was worse. They only started making real adjustables this past November.

An off-the-shelf Bilstein is probably going to work with a car that is close to OEM in weight (within a couple of hundred pounds) and using spring rates close to OEM or a little stiffer. Put a coilover sleeve on it (use Bilstein's or Ground Control's; both work well) use a spring that is about 10% stiffer than stock, drop it an inch, and you are good to go.

If you start using really stiff springs, they'll need to be revalved, which means welding on a bung and installing a Schraeder valve in the nitrogen chamber. That costs a little bit of money, but with that done, revalving the shock from that point on is stupid easy. Then you can easily (if somewhat messily) tweak the shocks to match your springs. And then fuhgetabboutit; it's done forever.

If you really really really have to have a knob - and you probably don't, but some people Just Gotta Have 'Em - the decent choice is Koni. They're not perfect; forces for a given part number can vary a bit, so it's better to group-buy and dyno the lot and make matched sets from there. And the knob is REALLY nonlinear, so the adjustment range is about half what you think it is. They are also twin-tubes instead of monotubes like a Bilstein, which is mostly neither here nor there but might maybe give up a little sensitivity to a Bilstein. Maybe. Bilsteins do tend to have less hysteresis, but not enough to get wrapped around the axle about.

What people don't realize is that once the damping is properly set, it's set. Forever. It makes no difference if the road is smooth or bumpy or whatever - the shock is designed to produce different forces at different shaft speeds and when the curve is right, it's right. The knobs on adjustables are primarily there to let you match shocks on the dyno, not to tune for different conditions. F1 cars use non-adjustable shocks on race day (all the tuning work was done on the 7 point shaker rig back at the shop anyway)

The only real exception is for cases when you are running soft springs (for ride comfort) and occasionally swap on sticky tires for track use. In that case, if you aren't swapping on stiffer springs to go with the tires, cranking up the rebound can act like "fake springs" (at least during transitions) and can act as a crude band-aid.

But far cooler is if the shocks could self-adjust in response to what the car is doing, staying properly matched during normal driving, and only getting stiffer when the car needs it. Guess what? That's EXACTLY what the OEM ECS does. The OEM shocks have 3 different rebound positions, and when the car detects certain maneuvers, automatically cranks up the rebound in proportion to the type of maneuver going on. It's a little crude, but it is also brilliant and works very well. I am an ex pro shock engineer, and I use the OEM shocks because you'll never find anything like it in the aftermarket.

So then, summing up:

1. Street car? Keep the ECS. It works.

2. Street car with no ECS? Off the shelf Bilstein with a coilover sleeve and Hypercoils slightly stiffer than stock.

3. Street car with no ECS and Gotta Have A Knob? Koni Yellow with a coilover sleeve and Hypercoils.

4. Going racing and have a budget? Convert Bilsteins to take-aparts, use a coilover sleeve and Hypercoils. Investigate the new Bilstein adjustable shaft if you gotta have a knob.

5. Going racing and price is no object? Ohlins (Penske doesn't make McStruts)

DG

[GTOX]

Interesting post.

Have you tested or do you have an opinion on KW Variant 3 coilovers?

I've been using them for a few months now on my GTO which is daily driven. The ride comfort is quite good IMO.

[GTO Assassin]

Great post DG. More worthy of posting in it's own thread. Thanks alot for the info.

Scooter

[IPD]

interesting.

unfortunately, it doesn't address that nearly every single brand available has different types of offerings. tossing out the brand because you "think the economy-level part is garbage" isn't really informative. d2 "rs" and "pro spec" coilovers are vastly different products. granted, i have the rs's on my car (and i love them); but calling any brand "junk" because you looked at one and only one part from the lineup is....misleading at best.

p.s.

you also didn't mention specifically WHICH brands you tried. i would not be surprised to find chinese sets were garbage. i'd be very surprised to learn that the stuff that japanese PROFESSIONAL RACING TEAMS USE is "garbage" (tein, d2, BC, etc).

p.p.s.

there's also no way of knowing if these coilovers you tested were, in fact, the genuine articles; not some chinabay knockoffs which were cloned & plastered with stickers.

[stealthee]

I've gotta side with DG on this one. I would pick a Bilstein w/ground control over a Megan all day long. It's definitely not my ideal setup but for the sake of comparison if they were both corner balanced my decision would be quite simple, Bilstein. Why are you opposed to them Stealthee?

Short answer is Ground Controls are junk and they will wear struts out faster. The ride is also WAY harsher than the ride of the Megan's.

I'll take real world 3.5 years and 40k+ miles of daily driver testing over some "shock dyno test" any day.

[DG]

Did I test every single model of every single shock? No.

I did, however, test multiple models from multiple brands, including JIC, KW, Megan, TEIN, GAB, and Tokiko. Not just their low-end stuff; my customers were racers and some had bought higher-end models.

All of these were JUNK.

Does that mean that every single shock made by these (and similar manufacturers) must be junk? No, it does not. But the trend was very clear. Not a single one of these shocks passed my most basic tests.

Just because I haven't seen every single pig on the planet doesn't mean there isn't one out there that can fly. Perhaps you were lucky, and bought the world's only flying pig. Based on my representative sample, I expect no flying pigs - but it is possible. But the burden of proof now falls on those who claim their pig can fly - and that means dynoing your shocks and providing the plots.

Until then, if you want something that flies, you're better off buying a bird than a pig.


Short answer is Ground Controls are junk and they will wear struts out faster. The ride is also WAY harsher than the ride of the Megan's.

I'm not a huge fan of many things Ground Control has done over the years - their DSM upper shock mounts, for example, are garbage. But there is nothing wrong with their coilover sleeves - in fact, theirs are a little nicer than the straight-up Bilstein or Koni sleeves.

They categorically do not wear out struts faster.

Now harshness is typically either a spring or valving mismatch. It is certainly possible that Ground Control is specifying overly stiff springs and using them on shocks that aren't valved accordingly. But that is a self-inflicted wound; nobody with any experience lets Ground Control specify spring rates for them. You buy their sleeves and get springs from Hypercoil.


I'll take real world 3.5 years and 40k+ miles of daily driver testing over some "shock dyno test" any day.

Sadly, this is a typical reaction from somebody who sunk money into garbage. People have a tendency to internalize their engineering choices like it was somehow related to their self-worth.

Here's the thing - most people are really, really bad at differentiating what makes a "good" and "bad" set of shocks and springs. It takes a fair amount of time to learn what "good" and "bad" feels like (except in the most egregious cases of bad) and if you never experience "good", "bad" feels OK, for the most part.

This is WHY the aftermarket suspension companies have been able to get away with selling junk for so long - nobody can readily tell the difference. It feels stiffer, so it must be better, right?

Hell, I won a major pro championship on shocks that were completely wonky. Car was really fast - except every once and a while it would throw me into the weeds without warning. You never knew if it was going to be spin, or win. Turned out to be way too much rear spring, too little front spring, and shocks that were completely out to lunch (I had to learn this stuff too)

I had a guy with $5000 in Penskes (built by a fly-by-night Penske "tuner") come to me because his car felt "a little odd". When pressed, he thought maybe something was different left to right - and he was slower than he expected. This wasn't an idiot; this was a competitive pro-level driver who was consistently top-5. We dynoed his shocks, and discovered that the left front had 1000lbs of rebound, the right front had 1000lbs of compression - the "super tuner" assembled the right front backwards. That's not a little bit wonky, that's a whole lot wonky. That's an enormous fuck up. And this top level driver could just barely feel that something wasn't quite right.

So why bother getting it right at all?

Because when they ARE right - and only the dyno can tell you when they are - it's like a giant spotlight comes on. The car is smoother, faster, and more comfortable. It is way more consistent, and much, much easier to drive - because the bad habits you had learned to drive around and compensate for without even knowing you were doing it go away.

So to be perfectly blunt, your 3.5 years and 40k+ miles mean jack, because you don't know what good shocks really feel like.

So then, you have a choice: you can get all mad and insulted and make a sad face and go pout, or you can chalk it up to a learning experience and get some real shocks and experience the difference.

No skin off my nose; I won my championships, sold my car, and moved on. I make no money off the truth. But I do hate seeing people waste good money on junk out of ignorance.

DG

[mb7050]

I went thru 3 sets of teins (HA , Super street and Mono Flex) until I realized they dont have good shocks for these cars altho they make excellent rally coilovers today !

[mb7050]

Öhlins
Aragosta
Buddy Club R-Spec
BILSTEIN

[J. Fast]

Don't get all butt hurt Stealthee. :D He's pretty much spot on. Until you ride in a car with a superior balanced suspension you'd never know the difference.

I posted a basic FYI on the other site awhile back and this seems like a good time to bring this here:

To catch up on the basics. There's basically three different types of suspension setups here. The first type is a standard twin-tube design such as a set of Megan’s, KYB, KW's, Tein's and ETC. The second is a mono-tube design such as a JIC-A2, entry Bilstein, Variant, and etc. The third is an inverted mono-tube such as a Penske, Ohlin, Moton, Bilstein, etc.

KW's, Megan's, KYB's, and etc are examples of conventional twin-tube shock absorbers. The inner piston chambers on twin-tube shocks are surrounded by an outer tube that acts as the fluid reservoir. As the shock pumps up and down, the action of the piston forces the hydraulic oil inside to flow back and forth through valving in the bottom of the shock into the outer fluid reservoir. When exposed to prolonged compression and rebound twin-tube shocks begin to collect heat and cause the nitrogen gas and oil in the shock to cavitate and mix which lead to boiling. Boiling leads to shock fade which if you understand the definition of brake fade you can imagine it's not good!

Essentially a vehicle with shock fade will slowly begin to lose its consistency and absolute predictability in handling. Shocks are responsible for quieting and controlling chassi and suspension dynamics and allow us to predict things like effective front and rear roll angles, tire contact, roll center, center of gravity, corner braking points, body roll, squat, and etc. Well, you want something predictable, which is where mono-tube shocks come into play.

Unlike twin-tube dampers, the gas chamber in a mono-tube damper is separated from the oil by a physical barrier, the floating piston. This separation means that the high-pressure nitrogen gas does not mix with the oil, and thus does not cause inconsistent damping force. This separation also means mono-tubes can be run at any angle, even upside down, which is advantageous because it reduces un-sprung weight by shifting the lighter end with the shaft to the moving suspension and keeping the heavier damper body attached to the chassis. Inverted-shaft Macpherson struts are often used in rally racing for this reason, and because they are harder to bend.

Generally speaking most mono-tube dampers have all the compression and rebound valving in the piston and are much bigger than those of twin-tube dampers. A larger piston displaces more oil, creating more flow through the valves than the smaller twin-tube piston; this makes mono-tubes much more sensitive to small suspension movements. This high flow in turn makes for more repeatable and accurate control of the damping force.

The deflected-disc valve systems found in mono-tube dampers are more precise, repeatable, and tunable than the system of check valves, springs, and orifices found in twin-tube dampers (although a few twin-tube designs do have deflected-disc valves in the piston).

Mono-tubes also run much cooler than twin-tube designs because there is no outer tube and extra layer of insulating gas to block internally generated heat. For these reasons, mono-tubes are the choice for all high-end street and racing dampers.

Additionally, inverted mono-tube allows less camber change under side loading. When a car with Macpherson strut suspension is heavily laterally loaded, the strut will bow due to the pressure and undergo positive camber change. An inverted mono-tube design will reduce this positive camber change (through increased rigidity) and allow you to run less negative camber up front which in turn helps with tire contact and faster cornering speed.

You will find standard manufacturers inverted mono-tube shock in the newer models of Mitsubishi Evo and WRX and will discover their suspensions are more dynamic, rigid, and predictable which is why if you ever tried to follow one with a twin-tube suspension you would find yourself inhaling huge exhaust plumes when your shocks begin to fade and you lose a large portion of predictable vehicle handling.

Additional substantiated testing afforded this general consensus from circle track experts, modified racing experts, and Formula 1 racing experts.


Quote:
ADVANTAGES
In addition to reducing fluid foaming for better ride control (which is the gas-charged mono-tube shocks main advantage), the design has additional advantages over a conventional twin-tube shock:

The mono-tube shock provides better heat dissipation and cooling than a twin-tube shock. There is no outer tube or fluid reservoir to inhibit heat flow, so the mono-tube shock runs cooler and delivers more consistent ride control.
A mono-tube shock is lighter than a twin-tube shock that has the same external diameter. This reduces unsprung weight and allows the wheels and tires to follow the road more closely.

A mono-tube shock can be mounted in any position (right side up, upside down or even sideways) and still work. A twin-tube shock uses gravity to drain the fluid down through the valving in the bottom, and to maintain the gas charge in the outer reservoir. But a mono-tube has a floating piston and no reservoir, so the orientation of the shock does not matter. On racing applications, such as Formula One or Indy Cars, the shocks can be mounted sideways inside the body to reduce drag for better aerodynamics.

A mono-tube shock has a larger diameter piston than a twin-tube shock that has the same external dimensions, which gives the shock greater sensitivity for small piston motions.

Mono-tube shocks are used for many coil-over applications because of their compact design. Many of these applications also feature adjustable valving so the ride characteristics can be fine tuned or changed depending on how the vehicle is being driven.

If you have some time to burn there's a great read providing great suspension technology and progression. The Design Of A Racing Shock - Chassis - Circle Track Magazine ....there's also some great additional reads in the hyperlinks on the right hand side (use Google).

I'd have to second the biggest point touched on by DG. The suspension must be setup correctly and not hacked together.

Great thread. One question I have for you DG. How dramatic of a suspension adjustment is required for track vs. street tire changes? Say you go from a street tire to a track tire, can you usually get away with going back and forth between the two or are you leaving something on the table? Back to your show :D .

[mb7050]

i find it hard to find compressed and uncompressed specs for bilsteins

[Mike-92RT]

I like the stock ECS shocks lol... i just like to show off to girls, when i show them i can change from sport mode to touring lol... most are amazed by it haha.

Although, most are amazed by the car itself... i WOULD like to lower my car an inch or 2.... whats a good lowering spring to use?

[mb7050]

2. Street car with no ECS? Off the shelf Bilstein with a coilover sleeve and Hypercoils slightly stiffer than stock.


DG

help me out here a lil i want working suspension for the spyder it weights 1850kg and 50% / 50% front / rear weight distribution so any shock / spring made for vr4 will look stupid because front will sit abit too high and rear too low (even stock suspension have this problem) .

I would love to have ECS but 1996 spyder vr4 does not have it

any links where i could start looking for shocks / springs would be nice and if you have some suggestions :)

[DG]

The differences between a good twin tube and a good monotube are pretty much a wash. The Ohlins T44 dominated CART/IndyCar for years and it is a twin tube.

Quality control and manufacturer experience is really more important than construction type.


How dramatic of a suspension adjustment is required for track vs. street tire changes? Say you go from a street tire to a track tire, can you usually get away with going back and forth between the two or are you leaving something on the table?

It depends on the difference between the tires. If you've got a good, high performance street tire (that these days are essentially hard-ish race tires, especially if it was designed for SCCA Street Touring) and you're using a hard track tire (for tread life) the same suspension can probably handle the difference.

If you're using ultra-long-lasting street rocks, and your track tires are ten lap wonders... no way, no how.

The key here though is that the number one part that needs changing between street and race setups are the SPRINGS, not the shocks (although a spring change implies a shock change) The idea that you keep the springs the same and just stiffen the shocks with a knob is effectively fantasy - UNLESS the rules force you down that path (SCCA Stock classes) which means you hold your nose and get on with it.

There's a reason why the top Stock class cars are trailered to events....

For selecting shocks/springs see Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Dynamics Calculator (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets16.html)

To be honest, trying to build a track car out of a Stealth is an exercise in turd polishing. The car was designed to be a very high performance GT car. There are all kinds of compromises made in the design of the car that trade ultimate performance at the limit for street performance and comfort, and they simply cannot be easily (or cheaply) engineered away. In fact, that's the very reason why I bought one - if there was lurking race car potential in the car, eventually I'd start building it into a race car (that happened with every other car I've owned save a diesel Jetta I had for a while) Buy getting a fun car that has zero potential as a competitive race car, I avoid going down that path, and I get to keep my marriage.

Nobody EVER listens to this advice... but if you really intend on building a track car/race car, either go really cheap (Neon, Miata) so you can hammer on the thing and not care, or go really well set up from the factory (C5 Z06) so you can go stupid fast without having to spend a bunch of extra money on the car, and can instead spend money on tires, gas, and brake pads. If you insist on tracking a Stealth, you will be constantly butting into design limitations of the car and spending time, energy, and money engineering yourself out of the problem (half of which you'll get wrong - Ferrari F1 figures they have a 60% success rate with the stuff they try; you think you're better than Ferrari F1?) and that time and money is better spent having fun on the track.

DG

[mb7050]

true . but if you want to do something special build a stealth (you need more money tho) :D

anyone know whats the fastes time race / modified vette ever did around tsukuba ?

[mb7050]

Mitsubishi GTO MR (Mk II) 1:07.36 111 '94 280 / 1650 thats an interesting time anyone know lap time of stock c5 z06 vette ?

wasnt it kyb suspension in the puma GTO if I remember right puma gto best time around tsukuba was just under 59 ?

[mb7050]

http://www.fictrading.com/ralliart3000gt/

soo non coilover struts really that expensive 1999 $ for set of 4 or these something else ??
if bilstein is realy that good why there are no vendors selling these only ralliart ?????

[IPD]

inverted monotube?

ok. gt-pro ksports it is!

[DG]

Bilsteins are like $100 a corner from Tire Rack.

Tire Rack Shocks (http://www.jdoqocy.com/3f66ft1zt0GKPPJHHJGIHKQPKNM?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t irerack.com%2Fsuspension%2Fsuspension.jsp%3Fmake%3 DBilstein%26model%3DHD+Shock%26KEYWORD%3Dsuspensio n_Bilstein_HD+Shock%26code%3Dyes&cjsku=Bilstein+HD+Shock)

Select a 1997 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 on the left hand side of the page to see.

DG

[mb7050]

thanks ralliart site says rear shocks are height adjustable is this true ??

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

thanks ralliart site says rear shocks are height adjustable is this true ??

not unless you move the snap ring on the shock body.

[mb7050]

one (like me ) looking for good "ballpark" suspension for my car how well would you think 4 set of those hd bilsteins would work with eibach lowering springs ?

[mb7050]

not unless you move the snap ring on the shock body.

ok but its doable ? for example with teins i have to raise the rear less than inch on the spyder vs coupe i could possibly do that with bilsteins too ?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

ok but its doable ? for example with teins i have to raise the rear less than inch on the spyder vs coupe i could possibly do that with bilsteins too ?

a machine shop could handle it, not something you'd want to do at home.

[IPD]

oh, before i forget.

one of the reasons i went with coilovers (instead of oem replacement/bilstein, etc) was because i needed to INCREASE ride height in the rear. nobody i'm aware of makes "raising springs" for our cars--and i wasn't about to spend 2k+ for suspension on a car that is primarily a dd.

[DG]

I'm generally not a huge fan of the lowering spring, because the ride height and rate of the spring are baked into the spring - it does what it does, and if it doesn't quite work, there's no way to tune it.

My general recommendation is to do a coilover sleeve and a standard 2.5" Hypercoil. That way you get ride height adjustment, and you can easily tune springs to play with the rate.

That being said though, it usually takes a little custom work to figure out the upper spring hat, and it may take custom work to properly locate the sleeve on the shock body (depending on whose sleeve you use), so the coilover conversion process isn't necessarily a bolt-in deal.

Sometimes perfect is the enemy of good enough, and the lowering springs are cheap enough that it's not the end of the world if they don't work out (either for ride height or rate) Plus the raw material of the good shock is still there.

So for a quick and dirty solution, lowering springs over Bilsteins is a good choice for a street car.

I'm perfectly capable of designing a full up Bilstein shock package for these cars. Experience has proven though that people aren't willing to pay what that's worth (normally around $500 per corner) so I'm not even going to bother.


one of the reasons i went with coilovers (instead of oem replacement/bilstein, etc) was because i needed to INCREASE ride height in the rear. nobody i'm aware of makes "raising springs" for our cars--and i wasn't about to spend 2k+ for suspension on a car that is primarily a dd.

A coilover sleeve on a Bilstein does this - and you get a much better shock in the bargin.

DG

[mb7050]

i have tein s techs and h techs laying around but I thought eibach might be good match with bilstein thats what most use and I have been told it works great ( bmw )...

[IPD]

fair enough, DG. i think you're probably right. i also think you're at the point of diminishing returns for everyone but those who have hemorrhoids and those who have picky derrieres. it many ways, it's probably like the difference between 19t's and dr750's. yes, there's a clear difference in performance. there's also a clear difference in price. for many, it's a "good enough" solution that fits the bill.

if most of us were to build our cars with "the best of the best of everything"; we'd easily sink 100k or more in billet work alone. yes, i can get a set of $2400 bride seats; but i could swap out for a set of manual n/a seats & reupholster them for cheaper. i could replace everything in my cluster with defi gauges; but autometers tell me everything i need to know & are reliable.

this is the 3/s world; not the porsche world. we're renowned for being cheapskates; just like the DSM community. there are better things to be had/done--but for most (if not all) the returns on the increased investment are just not substantial enough to justify the upgrade. and that varies from person to person, from car to car, and from build to build.

[DG]

There is, however, a difference between "good enough but not perfect" and "junk".

When discussing shocks, "Perfect" is an Ohlins or Penske in a race context.

A Bilstein converted to a take-apart with a coilover sleeve and Hypercoils is "Good Enough" in a racing context and "Perfect" in a street context.

An off the shelf Bilstein with a coilover sleeve and Hypercoils is "Good Enough" in a street context. Same shock with lowering springs may or may not be "good enough" depending on the car, and is really the bottom-dollar solution.

Any of the KW, Meagan, Buddy Club, JIC, TEIN etc are garbage and don't belong on a car.

DG

[IPD]

again, i disagree. megans are NOT the suspension equivalent of lmi turbos. you may want to insinuate that; but it doesn't make it true.

[stealthee]

I beleive I am about to add someone to my ignore list.

You are more arrogant and stuck up than Denis was. He was overly clueless.

Again REAL WORLD RESULTS trump anything.

[DG]

again, i disagree. megans are NOT the suspension equivalent of lmi turbos. you may want to insinuate that; but it doesn't make it true.

Disagree all you want - it won't change the facts. Physics and engineering are not popularity contests.


I beleive I am about to add someone to my ignore list.

Now let's think about this for a second.

A guy asks a question. The question is answered by somebody with tons of real-world experience driving vehicles in competition, analyzing suspension systems, designing and building shocks, and generally making race cars go fast.

Here's an example. (http://farnorthracing.com/shocks_2.html)

Here's another. (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross/konis.html)

Still another. (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html)

And another. (http://farnorthracing.com/modeling.html)

And in the process of answering the question, this guy with tons of real-world experience points out that his real-world experience is that the shocks the original poster is using are junk.

You, having purchased the same shocks, instead of saying something like "Gee, thanks professional race car engineer, I didn't know that. I think I may have my stuff checked out", or perhaps asking some insightful questions to find out just HOW the guy with all the real-world experience came to this conclusion, choose to instead get all butthurt and put the guy who has forgotten more than you'll ever know about designing and tuning suspensions on your ignore list.

Does that make any sort of sense?

Here's a tip: there is ALWAYS somebody who knows more than you on any particular subject. No matter how good you are, there's always someone better. As much as I've learned and done, there are plenty of other engineers who have done more than I have, and on the rare occasion that they choose to teach, I make sure to shut up and listen - because when they do, and when I do, I learn new stuff and go faster.

You might give it a try.

DG

[IPD]

"19t's are the best turbo for our cars, hands down".












:suspect:

[DG]

"19t's are the best turbo for our cars, hands down".

That's your thesis? OK, fair enough.

Prove your thesis with data and example.

DG

[i3igpete]

Dennis, I think that's a reference to Jeremy's 19t joke thread on the other website.

[3000GTPro]

I had a really hard time understanding the tech talk about shocks, but the impression I'm getting is that the best way to go for racing is something that is custom, which fits in with my previous impressions that a lot of the best do their own custom work. I'm not interested in having the best for the track, but something good for the street would be nice. What I'm seeing here, is that even something good for the street is going to require something custom made. I suspect that I wont be able to afford anything that good for a while, but I'm not willing to give up my current ride height on my Megans yet. So for the present time being, I have to work with what I've got, and very little to add.

[mb7050]

How would you compare Ohlins PCV and DFV designs ? I found PCV series coilovers for 3000gt vr4 ( 3000 $ ) but the PCV is old design and i dont think they make coilovers for 3000gt based on DFV design . These are for the spyder soo its a compromise beetween comfort and handling maybe a bit more comfort :)

I could get new bilstein B6 shocks for (revalving free of charge) 380$ set of 4 ( not bad price at all !) but I would have to sleeve them elsewhere and they told me if i do so I will lost warranty . I would really want to keep Spyder original Spring Rates (below) yeah this would be maximum comfort setup and i wouldnt even need to revalve the shocks but im afraid with such soft springs and lowered about 1.5 " i will bottom out the suspension very easily ..

N/mm (lbs/in.)
Front 30 (168) 39 (218)
Rear 35 (196) 28 (157)

there are many hypercoil / bilstein coilover sleeve kit / bilstein shock combinations for other platforms but I cant find anything for 3s as usual maybe DG you could put together something for us :)

[DG]

I had a really hard time understanding the tech talk about shocks, but the impression I'm getting is that the best way to go for racing is something that is custom, which fits in with my previous impressions that a lot of the best do their own custom work.

Sadly, this is true.

Real race cars have more or less standardized on a specific form factor for shocks (a 1/2" Hein joint at each end) Stroke lengths and valvings are all different, but at least bolting the bloody thing into the car is simple enough.

When you go down the modified OEM car path, you suddenly have to deal with the fact that no two cars share the same shock form factor. I'm not talking about the valving here - those are also car specific, but they are analogous to the calibration file in an aftermarket ECU - I'm talking about the physical interface between the car and the shock/spring assembly.

Because they are all different, there are no economies of scale the way there is with real racing shocks. Accordingly, there's no motive for real racing shock manufacturers to get in the game.

That's one of the bits of magic with Bilstein. Bilstein is an OEM supplier and repair parts supplier, so they do have the economies of scale to build shock bodies that fit OEM cars. And amazingly, they use the same internals in ALL their shocks, so converting a $90 Bilstein into a custom valved, user rebuildable shock is a fairly simple process.

Koni is in a similar place; they too have the investment in OEM tooling and so can afford to stuff their entry-level adjustable internals into an OEM casing.

Furthermore, both manufacturers try very hard to keep things more or less similar across their product line. The outer diameter of a Bilstein shock is always the same, which means that the Bilstein coilover sleeve always fits. The outer diameter of the "foot" on an inverted monotube strut is the same as the OD on the standard shock too (the strut uses smaller diameter internals) so that same coilover sleeve fits over the strut foot too. Modifying a strut foot to take the coilover sleeve usually just means cutting a snap ring groove, which is a trivial task for any decent machine shop.

Where I'm at a bit of a disadvantage though is that I have not yet seen a 3000GT front and rear Bilstein, nor have I seen the mounting interface at the top of the shock where the upper spring hat will have to fit. I'm 80% sure of what it looks like, and I'd be able to design something in minutes once I had (they are all variations on a theme) but until that happens, I cannot say SPECIFICALLY how to do it.

So "custom" yes, but not "tough" custom, given that all the R&D for how to do this sort of stuff is already done. We're not starting from zero here.

More to follow later.

DG

[mb7050]

. The outer diameter of a Bilstein shock is always the same, which means that the Bilstein coilover sleeve always fits.
DG

Bilstein B4BOA0000187 - Bilstein Coil-Over Sleeve Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BSN-B4BOA0000187/)

so they will fit ok thanks

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Sadly, this is true.

Real race cars have more or less standardized on a specific form factor for shocks (a 1/2" Hein joint at each end) Stroke lengths and valvings are all different, but at least bolting the bloody thing into the car is simple enough.

When you go down the modified OEM car path, you suddenly have to deal with the fact that no two cars share the same shock form factor. I'm not talking about the valving here - those are also car specific, but they are analogous to the calibration file in an aftermarket ECU - I'm talking about the physical interface between the car and the shock/spring assembly.

Because they are all different, there are no economies of scale the way there is with real racing shocks. Accordingly, there's no motive for real racing shock manufacturers to get in the game.

That's one of the bits of magic with Bilstein. Bilstein is an OEM supplier and repair parts supplier, so they do have the economies of scale to build shock bodies that fit OEM cars. And amazingly, they use the same internals in ALL their shocks, so converting a $90 Bilstein into a custom valved, user rebuildable shock is a fairly simple process.

Koni is in a similar place; they too have the investment in OEM tooling and so can afford to stuff their entry-level adjustable internals into an OEM casing.

Furthermore, both manufacturers try very hard to keep things more or less similar across their product line. The outer diameter of a Bilstein shock is always the same, which means that the Bilstein coilover sleeve always fits. The outer diameter of the "foot" on an inverted monotube strut is the same as the OD on the standard shock too (the strut uses smaller diameter internals) so that same coilover sleeve fits over the strut foot too. Modifying a strut foot to take the coilover sleeve usually just means cutting a snap ring groove, which is a trivial task for any decent machine shop.

Where I'm at a bit of a disadvantage though is that I have not yet seen a 3000GT front and rear Bilstein, nor have I seen the mounting interface at the top of the shock where the upper spring hat will have to fit. I'm 80% sure of what it looks like, and I'd be able to design something in minutes once I had (they are all variations on a theme) but until that happens, I cannot say SPECIFICALLY how to do it.

So "custom" yes, but not "tough" custom, given that all the R&D for how to do this sort of stuff is already done. We're not starting from zero here.

More to follow later.

DG

The front bilsteins are inserts for the stock strut housing.

The rears have a snap ring that an aluminum lower spring mount sits on. The top of them is a threaded piece like a normal shock.

[mb7050]

How are you liking your rear bilsteins and tein s techs did you do the fronts yet ?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

How are you liking your rear bilsteins and tein s techs did you do the fronts yet ?

good so far, may do the fronts this weekend, may not, depends on if I have time. Ride is controlled and not too stiff.

[mb7050]

the problem is I have 275 19" tires all around, the huge spring perch up front will touch my tires so the coilover sleeve / hypercoil is the only way to go .

[mb7050]

2. Street car with no ECS? Off the shelf Bilstein with a coilover sleeve and Hypercoils slightly stiffer than stock.



this i want but I find it VERY hard to find right parts !

[DG]

I think the sleeve you want is the B4BOA0000117 sleeve... I'd have to check my notes to be sure.

Bilstein makes two piston diameters. I think (again, I'm away from my notes) that the small one is a 36mm and the big one is 46mm... the exact size doesn't matter, all that matters is "big" or "small".

Most straight-up shocks use the "big" piston and so use the "big" sleeve. Some shocks use the "small" piston and use the "small" sleeve. Inverted monotube struts (like the Mustang Cobra R strut) use the "small" piston, but the "foot" they fit into has the same OD as the OD of the shock body of the "big" piston shocks, so you can use the "big" sleeve on the "foot" and make a coilover out of it (I made a bunch of these based on the Cobra R strut)

If the front is an insert into the OEM "foot" (not surprising on a small-market part like a 3000GT), things get a little more interesting. You then have to either machine off the OEM spring perch flange and find a sleeve that fits over it, or you find a Bilstein "foot" that fits the 3000GT - or is close enough to modify - and go that way.

I rather suspect that Ground Control already has a sleeve that fits the OEM "foot", so you get GC front sleeves and use the Bilstein insert; the OEM spring flange gets cut off which solves the tire clearence problem.

At the top end, you need a custom machined spacer to locate the upper hat. It's a simple part, just an aluminum sleeve with a little flange that fits into the upper spring hat and is captured by a snap ring. The centre is drilled out to pass the shock rod, and the upper surface matches whatever the interface looks like on the upper mount (or you make your own upper mounts and put in spherical bearings)

None of this is tough, especially if you own a lathe (like I do) or have a friend who owns one, or have access to a high school machine shop, or can do a reasonable drawing and pass it over to a machine shop. But it does take a little work and is not exactly "off the shelf".

It can be instructive to buy a couple of different Bilstein shocks for different platforms and see what's what.

This is why the "Bilstein + lowering spring" solution is a great deal easier....

Once you have it sorted out though, life is golden, because now you have access to the entire Hypercoil catalog for changing spring rates, and adjusting ride height up or down (which includes the ability to corner weight the car) is now trivial. You also get a shitload of tire clearence, and taking the shock out is a matter of a few minutes.

The shocks themselves, once you have the spring rates and valvings sorted out, take very little ongoing maintainence. The only wear parts are the upper seals and the teflon ring on the piston head, and really, those last a very long time. Warranty really isn't a big deal - the shock is very, very simple, and there just isn't a lot of opportunity for things to go wrong. The only Bilstein I ever broke was when we were developing the take-apart version of the Cobra R strut. The stud on top of the strut is huge (it's like 12mm) so rather than cut and weld a cup in the side of the strut to provide access for the Schraeder valve, we were gun-drilling the top stud. Early versions we gun-drilled the tap drill for 1/4" NPT all the way through the stud, and we snapped a few under racing conditions with sticky tires. Later, we gun-drilled the access passage with a smaller drill and only drilled the top out for the threads, and that solved the problem.

I love that Cobra R strut. I was in the process of creating a package for the EVO 8 using the Cobra R shock body and the EVO MR foot that was going to be a world-beater, but I wound up going back to the Army and abandoning the project. People don't understand shocks and aren't willing to pay for the good stuff, so really, the only reason for doing it was personal satisfaction.

I wonder if the EVO and 3000GT share similar foot dimentions?

There are a couple of really fast Supras out there with my Bilsteins under them....

I'm eventually going to do coilovers on my own car, but they will be based on the OEM ECS shocks because I think the ECS is the cat's ass for a street car.

I've never seen a shitty Ohlins, but aside from dynoing a bunch of them, I really didn't do much with them. If you wanted cheap and a knob, I built you Konis. If you wanted awesome and understood that the knob wasn't a showstopper, I built you Bilsteins. And if price was no object and you really wanted a knob, you got Penskes.

I did all sorts of crazy shit. I built billet aluminum uprights for a Lotus 7. I did custom control arms for Corvettes and Neons. I stuffed spherical bearings into everything. Adaptors to fit AP master cylinders into Corvettes. Adaptors to fit real race shocks into a bunch of different cars. It's a shame that we couldn't make money doing it.

DG

[DG]

If a vendor out there wants to make a go at building these, I'm willing to do a design. PM me and we can work out the details.

DG

[jtvr4]

It's always funny to see people get asshurt over a product they own, when their told it's junk. "Oh no it's not bad, it's great... because I own it. So shut up."

I too own megan coilovers. I've also had them on a shock dyno before I had my car corner balanced... Yes my Megan's are junk, but I still use them. Simply because I can't take them back and I'm not going to buy a new OEM setup so my car can look like a 4x4.

I would be interested to see what you can come up with DG.

[IPD]

It's always funny to see people get asshurt over a product they own, when their told it's junk. "Oh no it's not bad, it's great... because I own it. So shut up."

I too own megan coilovers. I've also had them on a shock dyno before I had my car corner balanced... Yes my Megan's are junk, but I still use them. Simply because I can't take them back and I'm not going to buy a new OEM setup so my car can look like a 4x4.

I would be interested to see what you can come up with DG.

but you're highlighting my point. even IF we assume that what's on my car is junk (unproven theory. i've never had mine on a dyno; but it DID come with dyno mapping when i purchased it); i'm perfectly happy with it. maybe there is something "better" out there. cool. at the same time though, coming from a non-ecs car; this feels like an upgrade to me.

now if i could have had a more comfortable ride, with better tracking, and the ability to RAISE the rear of my car (to prevent the tires from rubbing)--and all for the same or less $$$ than i spent; well i might have been interested.

as such a setup is NOT readily available (at least not without hunting down and assembling the pieces myself ala carte)--i'm going to stick to my original assessment. the coilovers i have are "good enough".

now if the first time i took my car out for a spin with these coilovers, they blew out, sheered my tires in half, and caused catastrophic front-end damage to my car---THEN i'd agree that they were "lmi bad". and that's not the case. not by a longshot. please dispense with the bull.

[DG]

If your sole criteria for "good enough" is "didn't spontaniously explode once installed", aren't you setting the bar awfully low?

I, for one, expect aftermarket performance parts to, you know, improve performance.

DG

[IPD]

YOU were the one who insisted that every part NOT on your precious "list of acceptable brands" was lmi-esque (read: extremely dangerous to use).

what i'm pointing out is that the suspension setups that you say are "junk" are NOT lmi-esque. they may be the suspension equivalent of china-bay 16g's...but they are NOT lmi.

[DG]

I don't know what "Imi-esque" is supposed to mean; I don't follow every single Internet forum drama story and so don't know the reference.

When did I ever say "dangerous"?

Oh, right - that was "never".

Let's try this again:

The shocks not on the good list don't perform as they should. They don't improve performance above stock; instead, they make it worse. They are a step backwards - in other words, JUNK. A waste of money that would be better spent elsewhere - like on something that does improve performance.

I can't believe I have to spell it out this pedanticly; I thought you were supposed to be a reasonably bright guy.

DG

[jtvr4]

now if the first time i took my car out for a spin with these coilovers, they blew out, sheered my tires in half, and caused catastrophic front-end damage to my car---THEN i'd agree that they were "lmi bad". and that's not the case. not by a longshot. please dispense with the bull.

If you judge something based on how long it last's, than good for you. What a poor way to judge something based on performance. Nobody is sitting here and telling you that your megan coilovers are going to explode. I'm telling you they are junk because i've seen my own shocks on a dyno. I could honestly careless what some paper said in the megan box. My megans did not come with a dyno plot and i've never heard of any that do. Please post yours.

I've spent alot of money and time on this car, I want what is better performing, not something thats going to last the longest. Nothing on this car of mine is going to last long with 30+ track days a year. You will never hear at a track day someone saying. "X part lasted a few seasons, it must be the better performing part."

Most hardcore track guys replace/rebuild their coilovers every season. If you're wanting something cheap that lasts long because you can't afford to replace it, than good for you. You and I are not in the same boat, nor do we have the same goals with our cars.

I just replaced every bushing on my car with poly, which is the biggest headache I have ever undergone with this car. Now the weakest link in my setup is my shity Megan coilovers.

Aerial Racetrack Map - Heartland Park Topeka (http://www.hpt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=262&Itemid=220)

DG: I would like to see you make a thread on shocks/springs. You most likely know more about this than anyone else on the forum and I would like to see what kind of ideas can be formed in the thread. Coming from a Supra we had many great custom options, sadly not so much for the 3000gt. Partly because most 3/S owners buy the cheapest junk they can find. However we're not all cheap. Maybe with some moderation or kind asking we can keep the fanboi's/butthurt/cheap people/whatever to a minimum and keep it techincal. I would really like some custom options available.

[IPD]

i'm all for info on what to purchase for a quality, OEM-replacement setup which isn't going to cost an arm and a leg--and isn't shit.

as of this precise moment time, such a setup is not available from any of our vendors as a KIT.

[jtvr4]

Inpefect, please post the plot for the megans you have. I want to compare them to mine.

[IPD]

as i'm about 8,000 miles away from my house right now, i won't be able to post anything that i have....for now. if i can remember when i get home, i'll be happy to post it up.

p.s.

i don't have megans. i have d2's.

[DG]

as of this precise moment time, such a setup is not available from any of our vendors as a KIT.

Oh dear God man, must everything be presented to you on a silver platter?

You have already been given more than enough information to start piecing this together. You know where to buy the shocks. You know where to buy the sleeves. A simple Google search will give you Hypercoil's address and you can buy springs direct from there. Links have already been posted to mechanical drawings for the parts that need to be made - granted, for a DSM/Koni solution but the concepts are very similar and 5 minutes with a $20 digital caliper will tell you what dimensions have to be changed.

You don't always get to peek at the answers in the back of the book. If you're going to try and talk like you know what you are doing, try doing some research and design on your own for once.

Have you read ANY of the linked material?

DG

[x2percentmilk]

I think you guys are fighting two separate battles. What is good for one user may not be good for another. Most people with megans are happy with them, period. Most people with megans also dont have "30+ track days a year". I dont doubt what you are saying or the information youve posted, but for a street car how easy is it to just buy the megans, toss them on, and be happy?

[IPD]

Oh dear God man, must everything be presented to you on a silver platter?

You have already been given more than enough information to start piecing this together. You know where to buy the shocks. You know where to buy the sleeves. A simple Google search will give you Hypercoil's address and you can buy springs direct from there. Links have already been posted to mechanical drawings for the parts that need to be made - granted, for a DSM/Koni solution but the concepts are very similar and 5 minutes with a $20 digital caliper will tell you what dimensions have to be changed.

You don't always get to peek at the answers in the back of the book. If you're going to try and talk like you know what you are doing, try doing some research and design on your own for once.

Have you read ANY of the linked material?

DG

again, diminishing returns.

if i choose a suspension setup that's garbage, my butt gets sore.

if i choose a turbo/tuning setup that's garbage, my engine blows up.



...VASTLY different outcomes we're talking about. ironically, most people will rely on "word-of-mouth" experience in either case. when they hear 95% of people with megans are happy; they listen. when they hear that people who don't install their timing belts properly destroy their heads; they listen. when they hear that not fixing a dent in your oil pan can give you a spun bearing; they listen. again though, you're talking about the difference between a rough/comfortable ride--and a working/blown engine. is it REALLY that surprising to you that your average person (who uses the car as a DD or weekend car, NOT A PROFESSIONAL TRACK CAR) really doesn't give 2 shits about looking into the ultra-technical specs of setup A v. setup B--when the worst that will happen is they swap out for something they like better?

yes, you ARE going to have to put a stock-replacement setup on a silver platter. period. perhaps hardcore racers are all into dynoing everything, deciphering cartesian-planes, and comparing resonant frequencies of this part to that part. your "casual driver" doesn't care. your casual driver has a butt-dyno. nothing else will till him/her about suspension differences; unlike messing with the engine--which will grenade itself if you mistreat it (and also has a datalogger). casual drivers are NOT going to dyno their suspension components--let alone install datalogging parts on their suspensions.

if you feel that there's a "best of best" for OEM, non-ecs replacement--then it will have to be offered as a package. period. you cannot sell to this segment by telling the consumer to "do the legwork yourself". it will not happen. "junk" $500 NEX coilovers off ebay > "do the legwork yourself" for 99.99999% of casual drivers.

/rant.

[J. Fast]

I have a second suspension setup designed by one of my Chumpster Teammates that's Bilsteins all I have to do is fab me up some perch's and add a few little macined lathed pieces and it's done. I also am working on a custom ECS controller using an arduino that's is smart enough to change dymanically and adjust the valving on each corner individually. I was lucky enough to know the right people and get the right advice and see the results first hand in terms of performance. When the smoke clears I'll have spent a total of $1800 in R&D and fitting for both a custom controlled ECS suspension (with a customizable suspension program), and a fully custom Bilstien setup. If I really want a knob I'll swap to Penske's and build a custom controller to manage those.

I pretty much listen when DG talks about suspension and have gone through the very process he described with fitting a custom bilstein suspension and have also fitted several DSM's. If some of you guys have questions about how I fitted my car lemme know. I won't post public pics, but would be more than happy to share some info via email or PM's and get you in contact with the machinist that has the templates.

Keep on rockin it DG, good thread man!

[jtvr4]

I think you guys are fighting two separate battles. What is good for one user may not be good for another. Most people with megans are happy with them, period. Most people with megans also dont have "30+ track days a year". I dont doubt what you are saying or the information youve posted, but for a street car how easy is it to just buy the megans, toss them on, and be happy?

Yes, that's fine and nobody is saying otherwise. What some of us are saying, is that megans/etc are not a true performance setup. This is coming from someone who owns a set. If people don't like reading that, than that's their problem and they should deal with it quietly.

Imperfect: diminishing returns is a term that doesn't exist on the track and a good setup vs my megans is night and day.

J. Fast: I would love to see your final results.

[ilian51378]

Interesting read... I learned so much, AFTER I purchased some Tein S-Tech springs for my stock non-ECS shocks... I guess, for a daily driver without any racing, but just lowering intentions, I will be fine. Too bad that I also purchased adjustable control arms and then I learned that I won't need them... There goes $160 wrongly spent! Gread info here though! I feel better after reading this thread, which is not the case most of the time when I spend the time to read through a whole thread... :)

[x2percentmilk]

Just wanted to add, I didnt want to come off as mean or anything, and I forgot to thank DG for the info he posted. It will probably help when I finally get to start road racing.

[-dLs-]

Oiy...

So you guys seem to be fighting a huge back and fourth battle that makes me chuckle.

The phrase each of you seem to ignore is "You get what you pay for"

DG you talk about building this to modify that to get XYZ performance like you did on the track.

Everyone I can tell who are using megans are driving to and from work, and just wanted a simple bolt in replacement over theri blown to shite ECS that no longer works and is rather clunky in the weight dept.

I love that you're uber enthusiastic about this but you did leave out key things:
1) price ranges of tested shocks (why is this important? because $500 shocks used ona neon dont work the same as $500,000 shocks on an f1)
2) Specific models of shocks test (you did slightly address that but then labled the whole company as shite)
3) Practicality and ease of use

What is 'easy' to someone who has been mechanically inclined for more years than the average age of alot of posters in here and raced and blah blah blah is only interesting to those of us who have no garage no tools and just need to get the shocks put them on and have something decent. DECENT. we're not asking that it take on a mountain at 150mph in 4 varying degrees of pitch.

You're honestly attacking people who differ their view from what you have tested. While that might be true...remember you tested ONE shock out of how many made? What are the decisive factors that might have been a bad shock? It might not have been BRAND NEW. It might have had who knows whats wrong with it. Or yes it could have been the best quality that certain range could be. You dont really know. Im sure someone out there absolutely hates the shocks you so hold up on a pedistal because it was an epic failure.

Just take it into consideration...people have megans, they've used them, they've not had a bad ride in real life, why degridate them so viciously and attempt to belittle them so harshly? Seriously dude, tone it down a notch. breathe, i dont care but relax.

-dLs-

[mb7050]

good so far, may do the fronts this weekend, may not, depends on if I have time. Ride is controlled and not too stiff.

Hey could you take a photo bilstein front vs oem front strut . that would help me to determine would the bilstein front spring perch possibly clear my front tires. after talking with bilstein tech Im pretty determined to go bilstein / eibach route .

Thanks

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

no it will not fit your tires with the stock spring perch. The bilsteins are inserts, externally they look 100% o.e. once assembled because they are inside the stock strut housing,

[mb7050]

ok so they offer same clearance as OEM struts .



Thanks

[CoopKill]

So, I love my ECS struts.

I have S-Techs, and would not mind going a bit lower (1/2").

DG: What would be the best route for me to go?

1: Stay with what I have?

2: Does the spring co. you suggested make a spring that would be a good fit with my ECS valving and get my height needs?

3: I should shut up toss the ecs and build the better option explained earlier?


My goals are a decent cornering (better than present push/push) street car...

[mb7050]

i fucking looooove ecs . sorry had to say that :)
I mean I would never get rid of the ecs.

I would like to have a tad bit more downtravel than what the stock suspension offers thats all .

[J. Fast]

Keep ecs, make a controller with an Arduino. Use a Tein H-Tech spring. Near perfect match for the design and a 1" drop. It also never hits the bump stops. http://www.3sgto.org/f17/ecmcu-project-build-integrated-active-aero-suspsension-controller-systm-1765.html

[CoopKill]

Why H techs and not S techs? I'm also wanting another 1/2" or so over what the S techs have.



__________________________________________________ ____________________

Tapatalk Bitches! :transform:

[DG]

I've said a couple of times that the OEM ECS is a great bit of kit for a street car.

The ideal street setup is OEM ECS shocks modified to fit a coilover sleeve and a standard 2.25" or 2.5" Hypercoil spring. That should be possible and I suspect that Ground Control already has a part to do it. GC will sell you Eibachs instead of Hypercoils... which is suboptimal but not a HUGE deal, unless you are racing. I'd be suspicious of whatever rate GC wants to sell you (because they don't have a good track record choosing rates) but they'll happily swap out springs for different rates.

What isn't clear to me is how well GC handles the top side of the spring. I've seem some solutions from them that are a little hokey, but work fine, and I've seen solutions from them that are garbage. So it's a bit of a crap shoot there.

For me to be able to get any more specific I'm going to have to do an actual analysis of the suspension, and to do that I'll need example parts (I can't afford the time to tear down my own car right now)

For a non-ECS car, the answer is Bilstein + coilover sleeves / Hypercoils. This has the same problem of figuring out the upper mount.

For a racing car, the solution is a C5 Corvette. Failing that, it is Bilsteins converted to take-aparts and revalved to match the car.

DG

[J. Fast]

In my opinion the H-Tech is the best compromise of all things being considered on an ECS strut. You get the best transmissibility and maintain adequate suspension compression and rebound without risking damage and sacrificing longevity (bouncing of the bump stops put there for a reason that otherwise have to be removed or altered if lowered any more). It's the best of all things on the setup with a good roll center proportion when lowered. It translates to a nice ride and compliments the stock roll and pitch quite nicely.

I've experienced the ride on Stock, S-Tech, Eibach, H-Tech, and Intrax springs and was most pleased with the H-Tech. I don't really care about the remaining 1 1/2" of remaining wheel gap as function and performance will always prevail on my car vs. looks. I would never put a GC EIbach coil on an ECS strut. Jeff Lucius had that on his list of to do's and it never worked out. Seems like it'd be a huge waste of coin. You'd seriously consider throwing a hypercoil sleeve on a stock ECS strut DG?

[mb7050]

+ for H techs. I would pick them anyday over S techs especially if you have non ecs suspension .

[mb7050]

oh and I bought the HD´s and Eibach pro kit springs for the spyder will see. Wheels need to go tho :(
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8288/69966666.jpg

Struts :http://www.eshocks.com/bil_Ind.asp?VC=4Q53&SubChar=Q

Springs: http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=Eibach+91-99+AWD&_sacat=&_dmpt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_odkw=Eibach+91-99&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p4506.m270.l1313

[GTOJOE]

I'll take your wheels :p

[J. Fast]

oh and I bought the HD´s and Eibach pro kit springs for the spyder will see. Wheels need to go tho :(
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8288/69966666.jpg

Bilstein*Shocks:*91-99*3000 GT AWD - Non-adjustable suspension (Without ECS)* - eShocks.com: (http://www.eshocks.com/bil_Ind.asp?VC=4Q53&SubChar=Q)

Eibach 91-99 AWD items - Get great deals on Parts Accessories items on eBay Motors! (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=Eibach+91-99+AWD&_sacat=&_dmpt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_odkw=Eibach+91-99&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p4506.m270.l1313)

They too wide or somethin? What's the offset on those bad bays? You converting to B8's and went with the Eibach Hypercoil? Sounds like you have a lot of fun fab work to do :) . Pics pics pics!

[mb7050]

275 allaround +42 if I remember correctly.
Just eibach lowering springs and B6 (HD) struts.

[mb7050]

371 $ for a set of 4 shocks/struts = almost free . If the combination does not work the way i want then its time to do something custom.

I got the eibachs from my friend (free / I gave him my S techs) and the 1.3 " drop is enough.

[CoopKill]

What exactly is the difference between the H and S techs?

Height?

Ride/rate?



__________________________________________________ ____________________

Tapatalk Bitches! :transform:

[mb7050]

S techs : Stiffer and lower about 1.5"

H techs : Not so stiff and lower about 1.0"

[CoopKill]

Stiffer does not handle better?

Or the H techs are a better suited spring rate for the ecs struts?

I am honestly thinking of attempting what DG is suggesting if I can get info on spring rates needed. I have the access to the tooling to customize the upper perch. Just need guidance on design...



__________________________________________________ ____________________

Tapatalk Bitches! :transform:

[mb7050]

I just started to take apart my rear struts and immediately noticed this , the shop botched the install and/or the S techs dont work with spyder smaller upper mounts, anyway no wonder the rear felt like shit :)
I though this could happen but 3sx tech said that the s techs do work with 1996 spyder (my first non ecs car)..



(1996 Spyder)
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7848/imag0059r.jpg







the upper strut mounts looks alot bigger in the coupe ( 1994 Coupe)
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/X2Xtreme360/StrutsSprings002.jpg

[mb7050]

After Market Spring Rates:

JIC FLTA2 Series, Turbo AWD Front: 787 lbs/in Rear: 564 lbs/in, 14/10 KG/MM
JIC FLTA2 Series, NA FWD Front: 787 lbs/in Rear: 506 lbs/in, 14/9 KG/MM
TEIN HA Series, Turbo AWD Front: 671 lbs/in Rear: 448 lbs/in, 12/8 KG/MM
TEIN S.Tech Springs Turbo AWD Front: 230 lbs/in Rear: 160 lbs,4.2/2.8 KG/MM/in
TEIN Luxury master Springs Turbo AWD Front: 670 lbs/in Rear: 280 lbs/in,3.9/2.6 KG/MM
TEIN Flex Coilovers Turbo AWD Front: 230 lbs/in Rear: 160 lbs/in, 12/5 KG/MM
Eibach (2811.140) Pro-kit Series variable rate, Front: 228 to 428lbs, Rear: 154 to 228 lbs.
Intrax ?
H techs Front: 218 lbs/in Rear: 145 lbs/in 3.9 kg/mm / 2.6 kg/mm /







Stock Spring Rates:

All units in N/mm (lbs/in.)

Stock Spring Constants

'92-'93 FWD AWD
Front 30 (168) 39 (218)
Rear 35 (196) 28 (157)

'94+
Front 29 (162) 38 (212)
Rear 34 (190) 28 (157)

Spyder
Front 30 (168) 39 (218)
Rear 35 (196) 28 (157)


Shock Damping Forces (0.3m/s or 0.984ft/sec)

ECS (all) Expansion Contraction
Front Hard 2530(558) 1190(262)
Front Med 1580(348) 1120(247)
Front Soft 620(214) 970(214)
Rear Hard 1710(377) 1010(223)
Rear Med 1160(256) 880(194)
Rear Soft 560(123) 670(146)

Non-ECS Expansion Contraction
Front 1080(238) 540(119)
Rear 1000(220) 550(121)

[mb7050]

S Techs vs H techs

S techs (1.5" drop in the front and a 1.3" drop in the rear)
Front: 4.2 kg/mm / 235 lbs/in
Rear: 2.8 kg/mm / 157 lbs/in

H techs (0.9" drop in the front and a 0.7" drop in the rear)
Front: 3.9 kg/mm / 218 lbs/in
Rear: 2.6 kg/mm / 145 lbs/in

[mb7050]

it seems I have to chance my plans ...

[IPD]

yeah...no farking way either of those would work with my car. i'm non-ecs to begin with, and i needed to RAISE the rear, not lower it.

[mb7050]

Stealth 316 - Ground Control Spring Installation (http://www.stealth316.com/2-gc-springs.htm)

[mb7050]

I've experienced the ride on Stock, S-Tech, Eibach, H-Tech,

Hey man I´m thinking of trading my S techs for the eibachs because S techs are little too stiff and H tech ride little too high I´m thinking eibachs would be something beetween am i completely wrong here?

S techs (1.5" drop in the front and a 1.3" drop in the rear)
Front: 4.2 kg/mm / 235 lbs/in
Rear: 2.8 kg/mm / 157 lbs/in

H techs (0.9" drop in the front and a 0.7" drop in the rear)
Front: 3.9 kg/mm / 218 lbs/in
Rear: 2.6 kg/mm / 145 lbs/in

Eibach (2811.140) Pro-kit Series
variable rate,
Front: 228 to 428lbs, 1.3" drop
Rear: 154 to 228 lbs. 1.3" drop

[J. Fast]

I just don't think they level the car out that well. I guess if you let them settle by parking it on a hill with the gas tank empty it will look good. Remember that mfr's rate is only for the 1st inch of compression and they're progressive springs. Got any info on the wire diameter and spring composition differences of the Eibach vs Tein?

[mb7050]

I'm more concerned of the ride comfort, i would like to maintain stock like ride comfort and just slightly increased handling. I know I could mix the s techs and the h techs like Jimvr4 did to level out the car.
http://jns.jimnshar.com/22600a80.jpg

[J. Fast]

I like that setup. How do you order half a set?

[mb7050]

you can´t you have to buy 2 full sets :)

[IPD]

...leaving you with a set of perfectly level ones; and set which rake the car something fierce. :p

[J. Fast]

HA, no one want's leftovers... You know if they sold a set of springs that matched the mix and matched look it would sell like hotcakes!

[3000GTPro]

Ok I have to ask those with Megan Racing street series coilovers if they put any pre-load on the springs before the weight of the car is on them? I especially want to hear from those with NA cars, but I would like to hear from anyone as I am in the process of checking and adjusting them right this moment. I have started to wonder if maybe the fact that I have some pre-load on my springs might be a reason why my coilovers tend to move on me. Also maybe because there are some spots that need to be greased to keep the springs from binding when you turn.

[3000GTPro]

:bump:

[IPD]

gotta get off my lazy ass and find my scanner so i can upload my d2 dyno stuff.


....or i could just go back to playing fallout 3....

[3000GTPro]

Well I need to figure out if how much pre-tension I put on my kit is what was causing my moving problem. I don't even know what they were like when I bought them since I never bothered to take measurements. Meaning I have no idea if they come with any pre-tention at all, because I changed the position of the spring perch rings, and I did that because I didn't know how to adjust them properly for many months after I installed them. So I really need to know what everyone else is doing differently for them to not have any problems. I still wonder if I'm not adjusting them right, but I suspect I have it more dialed in now than more previously.

[DocWalt]

Ideally, you'd have no preload on the springs. I'd suggest getting it corner balanced to make sure it's all set up right.

[3000GTPro]

Are shops in general going to know what corner balancing is? I ask because I have never even heard of corner balancing before this thread, let alone know of any shops that do it.

[DG]

Any race shop will.

T00n3r shops will not.

DG

[i3igpete]

T00n3r shops will not.


:lo5l:

[Alex3000gt]

I had this issue on my ksports. I'll try to use locktite.

[mb3000]

Eibach's on ECS struts, 17" fno1rc's, 275/40/17 tires.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad128/mb3000gt_photos/1992%203000GT%20VR4/IMG_0675.jpg

[RealMcCoy]

Why would preload matter? They're always loaded the same once you set the car on the ground. Unless you're a Dukes of Hazard fan, they're never going to be unloaded...

It's retardedly simple so balance them. A short piece of pipe and a floor jack is all that's required. You put the pipe on the jack as a pivot, jack up one end of the car exactly in the middle, and set the ride height on the end that's still on the ground. Rinse and repeat...

[3000GTPro]

Wow, it's been a year since I started this thread... :eek4:

It turns out the best way to keep the rings from turning, is to simply use a hammer, and something like a flat-head screwdriver to tighten and loosen them. Be very careful about the angle you're putting the screw driver. I think the rings are made of aluminum, because I have left dents in the rings from using this method. Even when trying to use a rag to protect them.

You can never truly use the adjusting wrenches for anything more than their namesake, because I actually bent mine back after failing to loosen a ring that was somehow SUPER tight.

Preload only matter if you're using the springs to take the bumps rather than firming up the shocks so they didn't blow out and leak like they are known for. This means that if you drive a car as low as megan racing's lowering springs (which is how a lot of people want them including myself), you have to either increase the dampening, or put less travel on the springs. I had chosen the latter. Now I am doing the opposite, and if the car is mostly on the street, not really messing with the spring travel keeps the ride more comfortable, while still having the hight you want. And yes, I have been sort of having a dukes of hazard style of driving when you feel the rough sections of road I drive everyday. Especially when you're late for something, or feeling spirited. haha
I tried your suggestion about corner balancing, but I was never sure if I was lifting the car exactly in the middle. The way I do it, is make 3 different measurements between over all strut height, and spring travel on the strut assembly. If everything is the same, then it should look the same on the ground.

[green-lantern]

Good to know, I just put some on.

[i3igpete]

actually, use the spanner wrench and a hammer. i found out that the hammer with screwdriver method can still loosen, since the lever arm isn't large enough to generate any real torque.

[3000GTPro]

When I say I bent my adjustment wrenches (that's what you're calling spanner wrenches right?) I mean I did that by hand with a cheater bar. I got those rings torqued WAY more with a hammer and screwdriver than I ever did with those wrenches.