I'm done with hydraulic tensioners

[blindmist]

So what I thought was my water pump making noise, I checked it again and noticed way too much slack in the timing belt. I went ahead and tore down the timing belt side to get to the water pump and to check to see if my tensioner pulley had loosened and rolled back. I get the timing belt cover off and see that the tensioner is entirely collapsed. I fire the engine up and sure enough, the noise that I thought was my water pump was actually the tensioner pulley slapping the collapsed hydraulic tensioner. It even almost sounded like rod knock. I shut the engine off and pulled the hydraulic tensioner off. I got a good laugh when I could push the pin all the way in with just the force exerted by my thumb.

This has been the 4th hydraulic tensioner to fail on me, and this one only had 7,000 or so miles on it. I am tired of risking my valves on these fucking tensioners. I know for A fact that i am doing nothing wrong when installing them and setting the timing. Maybe some of you guys might have an idea as to why these things keep failing. I have come to the conclusion that I am going to be using a solid tensioner. If anything, this will only be better because I know for a fact that it cannot fail, and the only thing I need to be concerned about is adjusting for slack from age and temperature changes over time. I talked to one fella that had a BLE for his DD DSM and he said he hasn't even had to adjust it once for the almost 2 years he has had it on his car. He estimates that there is probably around 24,000 miles on it by now.

/rant

UPDATE: http://184.72.239.143/mu/a6cd0af0-d2a3-80e3.jpghttp://184.72.239.143/mu/a6cd0af0-d2c1-c6a0.jpghttp://184.72.239.143/mu/a6cd0af0-d361-47cf.jpg

Drilled a 5/16 hole in the bottom. Tapped it to 5/16x18

The rest is history. $3.03

There was a little bit of secondary modifications to fit the tensioner back to the block. There was a little bit of aluminum in the way from the oil filter housing. I took my die grinder and fixed that problem. Then I noticed the main timing belt cover was pressed up against the bolt of the tensioner. So, once again, I just took my die grinder to the cover and that was that. Just got back from driving it around for two hours, the belt has a little faint whine to it now, but only when under the hood revving it. There is no additional slack in the belt at all and everything worked WAY better than expected!!!! I must say, I am extremely pleased with my handy work today, and I urge anyone wanting a solid tensioner to try making one the way I did before spending $100+

[CoreyB]

Are you using OEM ? I had one from Rockauto fail really fast, like a 1000 miles or so.

[Emilie@GZP]

Are you using OEM ? I had one from Rockauto fail really fast, like a 1000 miles or so.

I was going to ask the same thing. We won't use anything other than an OEM tensioner. It's just not worth the risk.

[blindmist]

Are you using OEM ? I had one from Rockauto fail really fast, like a 1000 miles or so.

Come on now, I'm not a retard. :P


Not saying you are for buying one from RockAuto, but with the money I had tied up in this build, a non-OEM was out of the question.

I think I am going to attempt to braze some washers onto my collapsed tensioner after grinding the pin out just to turn it into a solid non-adjustable. I am fairly certain I can torque on that pulley hard enough with my 2-pin tool to get the correct tension on the belt. Not to mention the fact that i have only brazed once in my life, this can either work out great or go horribly wrong. Thoughts?

[RL7]

Why not drill the hydraulic tensioner out, tap it, and run a large bolt through it- instant adjustable manual tensioner. You can also cut a portion of it off and weld a nut to it to achieve the same thing. I've been meaning to do this on my bike for a while and now I'm considering doing it on the stealth. Hydraulic tensioners are cute, but they concern me more than a little. I was inspecting the tensioner and a cold water pump squeak just the other day, found the tensioner working, but I still just don't trust it.

[blindmist]

Why not drill the hydraulic tensioner out, tap it, and run a large bolt through it- instant adjustable manual tensioner. You can also cut a portion of it off and weld a nut to it to achieve the same thing. I've been meaning to do this on my bike for a while and now I'm considering doing it on the stealth. Hydraulic tensioners are cute, but they concern me more than a little. I was inspecting the tensioner and a cold water pump squeak just the other day, found the tensioner working, but I still just don't trust it.

I have thought about this too. The only issue is that I don't believe I have the correct tools to tap that long of a hole, and tapping cast iron isn't the easiest either. The other reason being, if I am going to have to adjust the tensioner, I am going to have to pull the timing covers anyway, and it would just be faster to put the 2-pin tool on the pulley and just loosen the pulley, torque down again, and tighten the set bolt.

[blindmist]

Toyotas use hydraulic tensioners with their timing chains.

Our cars use "auto tensioners"

They're not hydraulic, they have a spring in them.
Hydraulic tensioners pump up with oil pressure.

Why not just fit a new one?

Steve

Lol. :facepalm: do I need to take pictures of all the oil that came out of the tensioner when I started to tear it apart? I don't know of any spring that small that can hold the weight of a truck and be pushed slowly back in. And that truck weighs 9200lbs. At least that's what it took to compress my last tensioner that I pulled off the engine that was good when I took it off.

They are hydraulic, please don't argue.

[CoreyB]

Toyotas use hydraulic tensioners with their timing chains.

Our cars use "auto tensioners"

They're not hydraulic, they have a spring in them.
Hydraulic tensioners pump up with oil pressure.

Why not just fit a new one?

Steve

Not true at all. They are full of oil and are hydrolic for sure.

[DocWalt]

There's two kinds of hydraulic tensioners, there's the kind that pumps up with oil pressure, and the ones that are full of oil already. We have the latter.

I had an OEM tensioner fail, and needed one ASAP. Went with a Beck Arnley one from Advance. It lasted at least 6 months, and 6,000+ miles until I traded it in.

[x2percentmilk]

I just saw a thread somewhere that mentioned the ratio of bad to good factory hydraulic tensioners is fairly high, which is disappointing.

[blindmist]

I think being solid is really the safer choice if you drive it a lot and do regular maintenance yourself. It's just one more thing to check once a month. Not only that, but once you have torn down the timing belt side with the engine in the car, it only takes about 30 minutes to tear down and about the same to reassemble.

[TonyM]

Something going on with new OEM tensioners? I replaced mine back in 2005 with an OEM unit and its seen 30k+ miles since without a problem.

[RL7]

I think the tensioners have oil and a spring inside. I haven't cracked one open yet to check though.


edit, courtesy of stealth316-
1865

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I don't know what it is, but there seem to be some people or cars with issues with the stock tensioner over and over, and some that never have a problem. I run mine about 9lbs on the manual tensioner instead of 7 just for extra safety.

[DrGonzo]

I don't know what it is, but there seem to be some people or cars with issues with the stock tensioner over and over, and some that never have a problem. I run mine about 9lbs on the manual tensioner instead of 7 just for extra safety.

Ahh good to know! I was just wondering what the stock tension was on the timing belt. I'm going to go solid here shortly and had no clue what the tension was supposed to be.

[CoreyB]

You are once again wrong. They have oil in them. This is held in by a seal at the end of the plunger when this seal blows the oil leaks out and the tensioner no longer works. The spring breaking is not the cause of the failure.

[DrGonzo]

The oil pisses out because one of the bolts holding it to the block goes into an oil passage. That's why the manual says to coat the bolt with sealer.
No they don't have oil in them, it's thick stuff similar to what's in the viscous diffs.
Obviously you haven't read the workshop manual.
The manual is quite handy, it even tells you how to test it etc. and squash the pin back in so you can reuse it.

Steve


Wait WHAT!!!!

That is not even close to being correct. The hydraulic tensioner is a self contained hydraulic piston, the internal spring forces the tension of the rod outward. the hydraulic pressure contained inside the piston is controlled by the orifice moving the fluid between the front and rear of the tensioner. They leak cause the seals are old and wear out. Even the new OEM ones are going out as they were most likly made 20 years ago and have been sitting on a shelf with all of the pressure pushing on the seals. The tensioners come shipped pre-compressed "You have to pull out a pin to un-compress it" all of that force eventually wears out the seals over time. Which is the reason I believe the OEM ones are having a higher fail rate these days.

[1stStealthN/A]

+1 People also over-tension the standard 7 to 9 lbs on the hydraulic tensioner thinking more is better. That will shorten the 60k service life as it's harder on the tensioner, idlers and waterpump.

[Hans@GZP]

I've NEVER had a tensioner go bad on me and I've done hundreds of timing belt jobs. I've used OEM ones and aftermarket ones and never had any issues.

They aren't usually very old when sold new either. The date of manufacture are usually stamped on the top of them.

[blindmist]

The oil pisses out because one of the bolts holding it to the block goes into an oil passage. That's why the manual says to coat the bolt with sealer.
No they don't have oil in them, it's thick stuff similar to what's in the viscous diffs.
Obviously you haven't read the workshop manual.
The manual is quite handy, it even tells you how to test it etc. and squash the pin back in so you can reuse it.

Steve

:facepalm to the end of eternity:


I am guessing your asshole is huge from all the shit you constantly pull out of it.

[jbuhrman]

Hahaha.

Maybe you should read the manual.
Maybe you should even cut one in half.....like I've done.
There's no oil in them.....like I said, it's very thick silicone stuff like in the viscous diffs.

Maybe you should get back to playing Forza, that's how you learn everything these days.

If it's lost it's tension then the spring has broken.
The tensioning is by the spring, The viscous fluid is the dampener to stop / slow the pin from pulling inwards.

Steve

This coming from the guy that decided 2 OEM fuel pressure regulators was less ricey than a fuel rail loop

[blindmist]

Hahaha.

Maybe you should read the manual.
Maybe you should even cut one in half.....like I've done.
There's no oil in them.....like I said, it's very thick silicone stuff like in the viscous diffs.

Maybe you should get back to playing Forza, that's how you learn everything these days.

If it's lost it's tension then the spring has broken.
The tensioning is by the spring, The viscous fluid is the dampener to stop / slow the pin from pulling inwards.

Steve

Even more nonsense. Wow. I just cut mine open and a shut load of oil came out. Not to mention the fact that under the cap on top there is a rubber bubble resovior for additional oil when the pin moves out. Also, what do you think viscous Fluid is made out of? Oh yeah, that's right, hydraulic oil.

Oh wait, I have cut all of mine open because I have a use for the stainless steel pin.

[CoreyB]

No you must of used forza to cut that open. The fluid is made from unicorn piss and the magical spring does all the work. The unicorn piss is what the spring gets its magical power from.

[blindmist]

http://184.72.239.143/mu/a6cd0af0-d2a3-80e3.jpghttp://184.72.239.143/mu/a6cd0af0-d2c1-c6a0.jpghttp://184.72.239.143/mu/a6cd0af0-d361-47cf.jpg

Drilled a 5/16 hole in the bottom. Tapped it to 5/16x18

The rest is history. $3.03

EDIT: ok so there was a little bit of secondary modifications to fit the tensioner back to the block. There was a little bit of aluminum in the way from the oil filter housing. I took my die grinder and fixed that problem. Then I noticed the main timing belt cover was pressed up against the bolt of the tensioner. So, once again, I just took my die grinder to the cover and that was that. Just got back from driving it around for two hours, the belt has a little faint whine to it now, but only when under the hood revving it. There is no additional slack in the belt at all and everything worked WAY better than expected!!!! I must say, I am extremely pleased with my handy work today, and I urge anyone wanting a solid tensioner to try making one the way I did before spending $100+

Here is the unicorn piss resovior. http://184.72.239.143/mu/a6cd0af0-d39c-d757.jpg

[Unknownvr4]

If for some reason your homemade one doesnt work...

BLE Solid Race Tensioner 3000GT/ Stealth TT: PMP Motorsports (http://www.pricematchedparts.com/products/BLE_Solid_Race_Tensioner_3000GT_Stealth_TT-3023-20.html)

[CoopKill]

Steve is really starting to scare me...



__________________________________________________ ____________________

Tapatalk Bitches! :transform:

[blindmist]

Here is my edit from above.

EDIT: ok so there was a little bit of secondary modifications to fit the tensioner back to the block. There was a little bit of aluminum in the way from the oil filter housing. I took my die grinder and fixed that problem. Then I noticed the main timing belt cover was pressed up against the bolt of the tensioner. So, once again, I just took my die grinder to the cover and that was that. Just got back from driving it around for two hours, the belt has a little faint whine to it now, but only when under the hood revving it. There is no additional slack in the belt at all and everything worked WAY better than expected!!!! I must say, I am extremely pleased with my handy work today, and I urge anyone wanting a solid tensioner to try making one the way I did before spending $100+

[Ninja Performance]

The trouble with a solid tensioner is it is not a "tensoiner" as the engine needs. It's static and can not and will not loosen and tighten as needed for temperature and belt stretch. This leads to constant re adjusting by the owner. I personally would only trust it on a race car and I would check it before every run. To run a solid on a system engineered to adjust on the fly on it's own is risky at best.

And personally I have heard people having issues with the OEM tensoiners, but in 10 years only ran into 1 and that was bad right out of the bag a few years ago.
I think maybe people are not installing them correctly, maybe over tightening them? Or maybe I have just been lucky. But I have seen probably more than most.

-Chris

[CoreyB]

Might even be the belt thats causing it. If the belt stretches even a little more than it should the tensioner will be extended more than it should causing more movement. IDK I have been wondering why they fai as well. I had just the one from Rockauto fail and that was the seal that blew. Non of the other parts were OEM either.

[TonyM]

I think maybe people are not installing them correctly

I'd tend to thing there's something to this.

[Tackhammer]

Yea, me too.

Ive NEVER had an oem fail on me but ive had a beck arnley fail on me in 100 miles

[DocWalt]

My OEM tensioner was (re?)installed by Steve on LI, so in my case I really doubt my failure was installation error. It looked perfect when I removed it, it just didn't hold the belt tight.

[Rocket]

I had belt whine the last time I drove my car :( It sounded almost like the whine of a supercharger... then clang clang clickity clickity of the valves striking pistons. The water pump pulley separated from the water pump. I will tear the tensioner apart when I pull the motor in a few days, but I theorize that the tensioner may have failed and not let off when it needed to. I am also going to check the water pump to see if it was OEM too. Belt whine scares me now.

[Tackhammer]

I doubt its related. H2o pump failure is common

[RL7]

I had belt whine the last time I drove my car :( It sounded almost like the whine of a supercharger... then clang clang clickity clickity of the valves striking pistons. The water pump pulley separated from the water pump. I will tear the tensioner apart when I pull the motor in a few days, but I theorize that the tensioner may have failed and not let off when it needed to. I am also going to check the water pump to see if it was OEM too. Belt whine scares me now.

Ugh.. that's scary. How old was the water pump? Was it oem? Have any pics? Let us know what you find with the tensioner.

[Steve '92ES]

Might even be the belt thats causing it. If the belt stretches even a little
If the belt stretches more than a little the teeth won't engage the cogs. When you think about it "belt stretch" is, by and large, a myth. The primary purpose of the "tensioner" is to be a damper, to keep the vibrations caused by the various shafts thumping as the valves open and close from harmonizing and pulling the belt off the sprockets. If all it was there for was tension a simple spring like in the SOHC would be all they needed.

I'm not trying to talk you out of using a solid tensioner but I cringe every time someone mentions "belt stretch"....

[blindmist]

If the belt stretches more than a little the teeth won't engage the cogs. When you think about it "belt stretch" is, by and large, a myth. The primary purpose of the "tensioner" is to be a damper, to keep the vibrations caused by the various shafts thumping as the valves open and close from harmonizing and pulling the belt off the sprockets. If all it was there for was tension a simple spring like in the SOHC would be all they needed.

I'm not trying to talk you out of using a solid tensioner but I cringe every time someone mentions "belt stretch"....

Belts definitely stretch. I have cut some of my old ones apart from my 4G63 back in the day and one was roughly 1/2in longer.

[blindmist]

I had belt whine the last time I drove my car :( It sounded almost like the whine of a supercharger... then clang clang clickity clickity of the valves striking pistons. The water pump pulley separated from the water pump. I will tear the tensioner apart when I pull the motor in a few days, but I theorize that the tensioner may have failed and not let off when it needed to. I am also going to check the water pump to see if it was OEM too. Belt whine scares me now.

That is most likely caused by the water pump seizing up. The belt whine I am getting is very faint, it even has it with a hydraulic tensioner.

[stealthee]

Water pumps tend to fail after the headgasket. Cooling system gets over pressurised, blows coolant past the seal and into the bearings, then the bearings seize, it's all over.


Steve


You're an idiot. Water pump failure can happen at any time and has zero to do with head gasket failure other than if you dont pay attention then a bad water pump can cause a bad head gasket.

Do you make this shit up as you go along?

[Rocket]

Water pump spins freely. That is what bugged me about the thing. Headgaskets are fine too. The pulley separated from the water pump right out the front of the timing. cover. May have just been a bad pump, the pulley was pressed on and may not have been pressed properly. <shrug>

[stealthee]

Its not the first time that has happened. Thats what happens when you buy junk water pumps.

[Rocket]

Was on the car when I got it.. I plan on checking it to see if it was OEM or not. <shrug>

[GTOJOE]

I'd better check mine. I bough a complete kit from 3SX 2 years ago but can't remember if it was OEM or cheap aftermarket. I think the only non oem bit I bought was the MLS head gasket though.... hmmm

[Tackhammer]

Its mostly the original pumps that came with the car that fail if they are not replaced before the 100k mark. Ive never had a replacement pump fail. It may just be that they arent old enough yet

[MaxClass]

While mine is on the engine stand I am seriously thinking about cutting about an inch and a half hole in the timing cover that I can put a rubber plug in. If I position it just right and a little high so it clears the crank pulley it should make a nice little inspection hole for checking the tensioner.

I see no reason why such an inspection hole might not come in handy for monthly checks. Sounds reasonable to me.

[Tackhammer]

On a side note, OEM h2o pumps have doubled in price in the past 5 years!!

[Mike-92RT]

funny thing.. i bought my timing kit off of ebay for a decent price (i know, i know)... but before installing the new pulleys/tensioner, i inspected the OEM ones, and the ones i bought off ebay. They were made by the exact same company in japan, that made the OEM ones. So should i be safe? lol

[WidowMaker]

funny thing.. i bought my timing kit off of ebay for a decent price (i know, i know)... but before installing the new pulleys/tensioner, i inspected the OEM ones, and the ones i bought off ebay. They were made by the exact same company in japan, that made the OEM ones. So should i be safe? lol

Not really. Many times these ebay companies simply 'rebuild' the oem parts so they have the same exterior body and markings. So while they look factory, the bearings and seals are of much poorer quality.
Any time you buy something off of ebay that is crucial to your car (60k parts, head gaskets, oil pump, etc...) expect a problem. If you can't afford OEM parts, you definately can't afford to fix the almost inevitable head damage that will follow.
-Steve

[Steve '92ES]

Besides, what do you suppose Koyo does with their parts that don't pass Mitsu's QC??
Probably sell them to someone else....

[Mike-92RT]

hmmmm probably... i will replace them with OEM parts when i change the waterpump and oil pump, which is next winter. I'm sure these ones will hold up during the summer. I won't beat on it hard lol.

PS: i already have repaired my car once, i won't let it happen again lol. Replaced all 24 valves, since the front cylinder head valves were hitting against the pistons :/

[colt45 gto]

there are many cars that use solid tensioners i see no reason why this can not be implemented on a 6g72, as for tension just use the old method, grip the belt finger and thumb at its longest straight point and twist it it should go no further than 1/4 of a complete twist, this should be a good tension.

anyone want to confirm this? this was always the method of tensioning older cars with solid tensioners. any less the belt is too tight and will whine, any more the belt is too slack and will slap.

it sounds feasible that the old stock is now failing, but really if the tensioner has only covered so many months /weks/ miles. then you should be able to present this back to mitsubishi, its a faulty item and they should warrant it.

[Hans@GZP]

Besides, what do you suppose Koyo does with their parts that don't pass Mitsu's QC??
Probably sell them to someone else....

You really think Mitsubishi tests every bearing that Koyo makes? A Koyo bearing is a Koyo bearing.

[colt45 gto]

fair point, and if a manufacturer lands the deal to make parts for a company then there really is no QC other than a trust in the manufacturers capabilities.

[Mike-92RT]

You really think Mitsubishi tests every bearing that Koyo makes? A Koyo bearing is a Koyo bearing.

Hans, you're right.. but im sure they do random testing once and awhile.