Supercar Engineering Crazy car handling pack: First impressions

[MR2]

Well, around 3 months or so ago I bought all 3 of the SCE Recommended diffs, the Kaaz rear, SCE Centre and Quaife Front. the car feels pretty similar during normal boring driving with the exception fo the rear, it's pretty clunky during any sort of low speed manouver especially reversing into car parks! keep in mind that these are all meant to get quieter and smoother with age and I've put maybe 100-200km on the car at this stage.

the biggest difference comes when pushing the car in or out of a bend, where the car would previously push forward into understeer, it now rips around corners like a mad thing, the understeer is still there however you need to pretty much let the car coast for it to happen, as soon as you force the car into decelleration (engine braking) or plant it the car seems to pull around and very strangely(:p :p) it feels like the arse end wants to come out on me!

anyone else With LSD's care to share their experiances?

[Hans@GZP]

Buy me a set and I'll give you my impressions :)

[green-lantern]

I wish I could afford them all. I hope to get the center diff in the not to distant future.

[GTOJOE]

I also hope to do this later this year. Also tossing up the idea of converting to a USDM 6 speed and then doing all the diffs. Plus rear swaybar, 3 point front strut brace and coilovers it should handle like nothing else.

[IPD]

*cries over lack of ability to run center diff*

[MR2]

why can't you run the center? it's almost the crown jewel? I actually experianced it the other day...powered around a bend and the arse came out...was like omfg awesome...

[IPD]

to my knowledge, the center is not compatible with the w4a33 xfer case. not to mention that the driveshaft nipples are different. so eventually i'll either have to search for what the DSM guys have for a torsen center diff (which i'm not sure actually exists); devise some kind of conversion to use/mate the 6-speed xfer case to the w4a33; or just give up.

[MR2]

ohhh DSM right!

[GTO Assassin]

Bloody rich Aussies. :p

Scotty

[DG]

Far North Racing - Analyzing the Quaife Differentials (http://www.farnorthracing.com/tech_quaife.html)

Autocross.dsm.org - DSM Specific Autocross Tech Articles - AWD Differential Tech (http://farnorthracing.com/autocross/diffs.html)

DG

[Fakepower]

its understeer , not oversteer.
over steer = rear end comes around
understeer = front end pushes

your car was understeering until you got on the power, after which the car oversteered ie "it feels like the arse end wants to come out "

[MR2]

DG, I don't know exactly how you are breaking your Quaife Front Diff's...(or is it center?) guess we're lucky we have SCE to make stronger ones than that!

[IPD]

nice articles. does it have a link to where i can buy the center?

[MR2]

its understeer , not oversteer.
over steer = rear end comes around
understeer = front end pushes

your car was understeering until you got on the power, after which the car oversteered ie "it feels like the arse end wants to come out "

Thanks, I get those two mixed up all the time :)

[DrkZide]

All three are TorSen diffs right?

[MR2]

Front two are Torsion, rear is just a normal clutchpack (has to be else they get snapped) hense the rear clunking a bit with low speed manouvers.

[MR2]

Just for the record:

Front Diff (Quaife) (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=232)
Center Diff (SCE) (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=257)
Rear Diff (Kaaz) (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=238)

Engine is stock (15G's but stock boost)

Drive train wise:

I'm running the revised RPS Twin plate Carbon/Carbon Clutch (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=261)
The Broomfield Racing Billet End Case (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=29363)
a McKeandVR4 Bell Housing plate (stops shafts separating) (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/bell-housing-brace-437570/)
& PST two piece Aluminium Drive Shaft (two piece for less vibration) (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=643)

Oil Wise the GB has Castrol VXM-M
the Kaaz broke in on the Kaaz oil, then moved to Penrite Limslip.

[akotten]

Just for the record:

Front Diff (Quaife) (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=232)
Center Diff (SCE) (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=257)
Rear Diff (Kaaz) (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=238)

Engine is stock (15G's but stock boost)

Drive train wise:

I'm running the revised RPS Twin plate Carbon/Carbon Clutch (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=261)
The Broomfield Racing Billet End Case (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=29363)
a McKeandVR4 Bell Housing plate (stops shafts separating) (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/bell-housing-brace-437570/)
& PST two piece Aluminium Drive Shaft (two piece for less vibration) (http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=643)

Oil Wise the GB has Castrol VXM-M
the Kaaz broke in on the Kaaz oil, then moved to Penrite Limslip.

Wow that's a lot of money stuck into the drivetrain with a near stock motor. Any big plans?

[MR2]

I try not to talk about stuff that's a while off...as the engine is atleast a year off (I have some debt to get rid of) in the long term plans however I have:


a pair of 6g75 Mivec heads currently being modified (by Oohnoo) to fit on a 6g74 block
6g74 block + 6g75 crank are sitting in my garage, eventually to be bore'd out to 95mm (should be around the 3.8L mark if all goes well) may need to grab one of Rays cranks as the 75 one looks a bit flexy!
on the turbo side of things I bought a 3sx turbo kit + terminators before working out that I could have afforded a DR Kit...oh well, I hear that Comp Turbo can do billet compressors and hopefully we can get some TiAL Turbines and bring them up to spec..
all in all I'm not sure at what point i'll be happy with it, still trying to get the brakes just right...believe I'm close on that one though! also not even sure what I'm going to get into(racing or driving wise)...just kinda plodding along and seeing how each mod feels :)

I know it's weird but I just like stuffing around with it :p

[GTOJOE]

Jacks sells all the diffs etc. I'm in discussion with him at the moment. Looking at converting my 5 speed to a USDM 6 speed and having the bell housing braced, billet end cap, all 3 diff upgrades and the 300m shaft [300m comes with the sce centre diff]. However he said the billet end cap is NOT required for my target [600AWHP]. Does anyone have any input on this?

[MR2]

I'm pretty sure it's not required since what....only 3 x of them have ever been broken? but if it does go it takes out thousands of dollars worth of gear and labor so I figured why not :)

[MR2]

And it's Shiney!

[akotten]

Jacks sells all the diffs etc. I'm in discussion with him at the moment. Looking at converting my 5 speed to a USDM 6 speed and having the bell housing braced, billet end cap, all 3 diff upgrades and the 300m shaft [300m comes with the sce centre diff]. However he said the billet end cap is NOT required for my target [600AWHP]. Does anyone have any input on this?

I see no reason what so ever to want to convert a 5 speed to a 6 speed except for the overdrive to achieve better gas mileage. Stainless or billet transfer case, 300m output shaft, and bellhousing brace and you're set!

[GTOJOE]

I see no reason what so ever to want to convert a 5 speed to a 6 speed except for the overdrive to achieve better gas mileage. Stainless or billet transfer case, 300m output shaft, and bellhousing brace and you're set!

I don't trust anyone in Australia to rebuilt one of these boxes to handle a minimum 600awhp so i'm looking at getting Jacks to do it over there. But it's cheaper to aquire a box overthere and rebuild then ship back here. And since you can buy a new 6 speed box at the moment for dirt cheap it made sense to do it that way. Also I want the taller 6th gear. My understanding of the USDM 6 speed is that the first 5 gears are fairly similar to the 5 speed and the 6th is taller for better highway cruising and mileage. But I guess in the long run the SS transfer case and 300m shafter would be cheaper. But I also want to upgrade all 3 diffs.

[MR2]

I wonder what % of Gearboxes out there are 5 speed Vs 6 speed.

[akotten]

I don't trust anyone in Australia to rebuilt one of these boxes to handle a minimum 600awhp so i'm looking at getting Jacks to do it over there. But it's cheaper to aquire a box overthere and rebuild then ship back here. And since you can buy a new 6 speed box at the moment for dirt cheap it made sense to do it that way. Also I want the taller 6th gear. My understanding of the USDM 6 speed is that the first 5 gears are fairly similar to the 5 speed and the 6th is taller for better highway cruising and mileage. But I guess in the long run the SS transfer case and 300m shafter would be cheaper. But I also want to upgrade all 3 diffs.

In that case, that makes sense. I would LOVE a brand new 6 speed. I've been driving a 5 speed version for a few years now and I drove my first 6 speed the other day. I wasn't the biggest fan of the gearing, but it would be ok after some getting used to I think. And if you want the taller gear, then go for it.

[DocWalt]

Sounds pretty much how I wanted my VR-4 to feel. I wish I had the spare cash to just spend on the diffs. Would have taken me eons to save up :(

The 6 speed gearing was similar to the 5 speed for the first five gears, except each gear was shorter. 6th gear was a bit longer than the 5th gear in the 5 speeds.

[mh3kgt]

I wish I had the money to put into my drivetrain like that. Haha I feel like I'm spoiling it by running all Redline fluids

[MR2]

haha, yeahh that stuff is pretty cheap over there though, here in aus that stuff is like double the price (and then some)

[green-lantern]

I try not to talk about stuff that's a while off...as the engine is atleast a year off (I have some debt to get rid of) in the long term plans however I have:


a pair of 6g75 Mivec heads currently being modified (by Oohnoo) to fit on a 6g74 block
6g74 block + 6g75 crank are sitting in my garage, eventually to be bore'd out to 95mm (should be around the 3.8L mark if all goes well) may need to grab one of Rays cranks as the 75 one looks a bit flexy!
on the turbo side of things I bought a 3sx turbo kit + terminators before working out that I could have afforded a DR Kit...oh well, I hear that Comp Turbo can do billet compressors and hopefully we can get some TiAL Turbines and bring them up to spec..
all in all I'm not sure at what point i'll be happy with it, still trying to get the brakes just right...believe I'm close on that one though! also not even sure what I'm going to get into(racing or driving wise)...just kinda plodding along and seeing how each mod feels :)

I know it's weird but I just like stuffing around with it :p

I would go with Rays crank. If you are putting out the cash I think you would be making a big mistake not getting it.

[DocWalt]

Oh, and FWIW, it sounds like your car handles a lot more like an Evo now. I have no idea why Mitsu was so belligerent about updating the 3S drivetrain. It was stuck with the crappy viscous setup even after the Evo had AYC and such.

[MR2]

Yeah, well it'll be a year atleast before any of that gets anywhere near comming together so I'll be keeping an eye on what rays up to with it :)

[stealthTT]

great writeup Michael. its the first one that I actully see on this.
After all the new products were released I was hoping to see a full description, and why not a video. there were some from the NG, but not as I've expected. a good write up and also some actually race shooting could have helped.

I'll be getting for my rebuild a new center differential, front LSD and rear one. However, I was looking to get the front one, Quaife at the beggining and trace a rear MR LSD(not so much luck with it though).

BTW. there was a guy(company) in UK - that has done both FRONT and CENTER differentials available. His posts are on www.gtouk.org.uk

I wish I could have read more about this, but latelly all the EUROPEAN 3S Forums are like PORNO ADULT Chanells, you have to pay in order to read. and on some of them, likes to do it montlhy, while other forums are free. I don't agree with that, even if they are bushing the ideea of costs, I dont buy that - they get money from the adds, from supporting vendors, etc...

Ilie

[MR2]

yeahhhh I started out at Gtoco.uk and then they pulled that one.

[stealthTT]

yeahhhh I started out at Gtoco.uk and then they pulled that one.

yes, GTOCO :)
did you read about the one that has done these parts available?
maybe someone who has acces to the forums there can trace that guy and point this forum.

I've remembered, TAZ(the guy with that monster vr4 from Norway, IRC) had(has) the same setup as you, just he had some bad luck with them.

[MR2]

he backed out some shift fork pins and had two gears engaged at once :p BOOM!
Taz is Legendary :D

by all means find that guy and point him here, it'd be interesting. no-one has grenaded any part of the SCE LSD set of diffs though.

[stealthTT]

I know that no one had grenaded any SCE, and thats great as all of its products are great by any means.

about the other guy from UK. I would point him here, BUT I dont have access to that area on the GTOUK, and I don't see me paying for it.
so, if anyone from here is over there also, please dig in.

[DG]

I was breaking Quaifes because I was running 275-285 series Hoosier race tires and launching at 5500 PRM and 12-14 PSI off the launch control.

The shock loads were pretty damn high, and there is only so much room inside the DSM tranny to fit the centre diff. Packaging constraints for all those internals limits the case thickness of the Quaife, and there's only so much you can do with metallurgy.

I was racing, and you do what you have to do to win.

I'm unfamiliar with the internals of the Stealth tranny so don't know where the limiting factors are.

DG

[mb7050]

anyone know does pitroad m use stock drivetrain. ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyBT-XRHYOM&feature=player_embedded

Puma GTO did have all stock drivetrain, right ?( Mr gears and rear diff but oem trans and center diff)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUD6QxfS_YM&feature=player_embedded

[mb7050]

Thats one hell of a setup you have in there MR2 :)

[IPD]

I was breaking Quaifes because I was running 275-285 series Hoosier race tires and launching at 5500 PRM and 12-14 PSI off the launch control.

The shock loads were pretty damn high, and there is only so much room inside the DSM tranny to fit the centre diff. Packaging constraints for all those internals limits the case thickness of the Quaife, and there's only so much you can do with metallurgy.

I was racing, and you do what you have to do to win.

I'm unfamiliar with the internals of the Stealth tranny so don't know where the limiting factors are.

DG

i don't think i've heard of anyone breaking the supercar center diff....yet. i haven't really heard of quaife front LSD failures; but i have heard from the DSM guys that it's not the best thing for the center. i'd like to upgrade my center; but i have no desire to run anything welded.

[x2percentmilk]

The puma car did have a stock drivetrain. IIRC it broke during an endurance race and they had to pull out :/

It still could beat every car around the track though :)

[mb7050]

http://www.motorsportscom.info/mscpickup/osaka_auto_messe/2009/img/oam2009_ph016b.jpg

just translated pitroad M´s 2011 setup
Drivetrain: 6F Getrag transmission, Pit Road M LSD (front and rear), carbon driveshaft, and carbon triple-plate clutch kit.

wtf 6F isn´t that bnr 34 skyline transmission right ?? that thing wont fit there no way

Engine (Z15A): 918.8ps / 103.8 kg/m – Pit Road M SPL special engine, oil cooler kit, and exhaust, HKS F-Con V Pro ECU, Trust Profec boost controller, TD05SH-18G (10cm) turbochargers, nitrous oxide kit

hope they do better this year agains legendary Auto select r34 skyline "Yellow Shark"

gto had ~800 ps w nitrous in this race(TD05SH-18Gx2).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0npuTeFp7k&feature=related

[GTOJOE]

6F is a JDM thing. If you look up an 2nd gen gto on JDM caps it lists the gearbox as 6F [and 5F for 5 speed] No idea what the F stands for though.

[mb7050]

ok it makes sense. I have known getrag 6F as gtr 34 transmission :)

[J. Fast]

Hey, what's that yellow line on the drivers side going into that cartridge? Is that the main fuel line exiting into a heat sink? I like the crank catcher too, kinda looks like a squid.

[mb7050]

i dont know but this car gives me cold chills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uybd3HfQQrs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMn25yRFKik&feature=related

[GTO Assassin]

6F is a JDM thing. If you look up an 2nd gen gto on JDM caps it lists the gearbox as 6F [and 5F for 5 speed] No idea what the F stands for though.
Knowing how poor the drivetrain was back then (without the advances we have now) I'm pretty sure we all know what the F stands for. ;)


i dont know but this car gives me cold chills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uybd3HfQQrs

Really? I'm guessing you're a 2 minute man with the ladies as well. :p

Scotty

[mb7050]

Hey, what's that yellow line on the drivers side going into that cartridge? Is that the main fuel line exiting into a heat sink? I like the crank catcher too, kinda looks like a squid.

Driver side, RHD ?
http://www.pitroadm.com/public/ENGINE/PARTS/IMG_5767.JPG
http://www.pitroadm.com/public/COOLING%20PARTS/PARTS/DSC04172.JPG
http://www.pitroadm.com/public/COOLING%20PARTS/PARTS/breather_820%5B1%5D.gif
http://cdn.octanereport.com/upload/image/2011/01/tokyo-auto-salon-rh9-16.jpg

[mb7050]

R 34´s are impossible to register here, hence the desire to own one ..

[J. Fast]

Driver side, RHD ?
http://www.pitroadm.com/public/ENGINE/PARTS/IMG_5767.JPG

http://cdn.octanereport.com/upload/image/2011/01/tokyo-auto-salon-rh9-16.jpg

Lol, sorry, passenger side. In the second pic they're black

Hey that's pretty much how my buddy Marcus' had to setup his 1000awhp DSM from purging all the coolant. I posted a vid awhile back on 3si. Some people were saying it was the head gasket. Nope, it was 50 + psi of boost :) . High pressure coolant purge and recirc res works great. It's a good good fix!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

is that running dual stock oil coolers, there is a stock intercooler on the "passenger" side.