Mitsubishi Selling 6 Speed Getrags at Discount - (New Production Run?)

[duke3k]

Ok Gang

... So you heard it here first (Actually 2nd - I already posted this on Colorado3S.org)

I was picking up my VR4 after having some work done on it at Mile High Mitsubishi in Aurora Colorado last evening. I'm checking out and chatting with the service manager. He looks out the window and see's that my other half is waiting for me in her Spyder and say's:

"hey I just realized you guys own two 3000's - I heard something from the factory that you might be interested in. Our factory rep just told us that they were getting ready to do a special offer on the 6 Speed Getrags Transaxles and Transfer cases for the AWD VR4's and have decided to offer them at a steep discount"

I say "Really.... How much?"

He Says: "$2500 will get you a brand new factory 6 speed Getrag transmission - but you have to prepay on your order by Jan 21st. Delivery will be in late March."

So sounding to good to be true I called him back this morning to confirm and he said this:


"I talked to my District Parts and Service Manager. They are new transmissions and he is not 100 percent sure but he believes they are making a new lot of them. As far as we know at this time they are not going to be offering separate replacement components, however they are also offering new t-cases for $475.00 (just by themselves ). It is a nation wide deal, I would direct folks interested to their nearest local dealer. "


He went on to make it clear that the $2500 price is MileHigh's price. Other Dealers might choose to mark up the goods.


Just for grins I called Cherry Hill to see if they knew about it and they were not aware of this. They were going to "check into it" and call me back with what they know. When they call back - I will post up the response.


That is all the information I have.

Merry Xmas all.

Duke

Correction: I just modified my original post - Mile high just called me back: The Transfer case IS NOT included in their $2500 price -for that price you only get the TransAxle. $475 - get's you the Xfer case. Sorry for the confusion.

[J-Groove]

Holy cow! That is some awesome news!

Can't wait to hear what you find out from Cherry Hill.

-John

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

awesome, wish they would produce more 5 speeds, but anything like this is good news.

I'm sure there will not be design improvements, but MAYBE the materials have improved.

[BjornRune]

Nice price, I'm getting one! I saw that Cherry Hill was able to order JDM parts, will these prices apply to JDM 6-speeds? Wishful thinking maybe, but they are all Getrags..

[green-lantern]

That's awesome news, I don't need one ATM but I might pick one up for future use. Thanks for the heads up man!

[MR2]

wow, is it a joke? no-one gives a shit about our cars...you lucky bloody americans

[akotten]

Hope this is legit. We could use some nice new parts at discounted prices. "Over night parts from JAPAN" lol.

[x2percentmilk]

^ ahaha. i hope this is true

[Nihil]

I saw we all pitch in 25 bucks each (I think there's enough 3S guys in the world) to buy one of these trans and xfers and send'em to Atrosity and have him reverse engineer the bastard and make lots of replacement parts and possible improved parts haha....That's a DAMN STEAL of a price, wish I had money

[toddrs93]

Wow, I guess we have to adjust prices accordingly. Gee I wonder how long until shop #xx buys them all up, holds them 6 months, then sells them for triple the price; oops did I say that out loud?

[Nihil]

Wow, I guess we have to adjust prices accordingly. Gee I wonder how long until shop #xx buys them all up, holds them 6 months, then sells them for triple the price; oops did I say that out loud?

Fckin Seriously... :rolleyes3:

[MR2]

I doubt a new production run...more like all the left over stock in various factories all over the place....aka all the stock mitsu had been holding (for god knows what?)

[AdamVR4]

If they were doing this with 5 speeds, I'd be in.

[Atrosity]

Holy shit!! and I effin paid 2500 for my shitty rebuilt kormex transmission(that leaks, grinds, and makes wierd noises), I am really kicking myself in the nuts....

[MADMarc]

DAMN! I'm in to see what cherry hill says...I want a six speed :P Man that'd be awesome if they did 5 speeds as well but I am totally curious to see if they changed any of the quality after seeing some of their flaws.

[onebadmollafolla]

Wow, I guess we have to adjust prices accordingly. Gee I wonder how long until shop #xx buys them all up, holds them 6 months, then sells them for triple the price; oops did I say that out loud?

That would be a disgusting thing for a shop in this community to do. This was posted in an attempt to help out the fellow 3S community by saving some money. To take a kind gesture like this and turn it into a business deal would be despicable.

[2fnloud]

That would be a disgusting thing for a shop in this community to do. This was posted in an attempt to help out the fellow 3S community by saving some money. To take a kind gesture like this and turn it into a business deal would be despicable.

Well then despise him, it appears that he has listed "a few" (http://www.3sgto.org/f79/brand-new-6-speed-no-core-several-available-2952.html) in the for sale section

[dbest671]

Well then despise him, it appears that he has listed "a few" (http://www.3sgto.org/f79/brand-new-6-speed-no-core-several-available-2952.html) in the for sale section

Umm yeah, read the original post, the $2500 tranny is not even available yet.

He Says: "$2500 will get you a brand new factory 6 speed Getrag transmission - but you have to prepay on your order by Jan 21st. Delivery will be in late March."


So "a few" Toddrs93 has for sale is not the ones for $2500 shipped.

[toddrs93]

Well then despise him, it appears that he has listed "a few" (http://www.3sgto.org/f79/brand-new-6-speed-no-core-several-available-2952.html) in the for sale section

lol that was actually for somebody else who contacted me, coincidental timing, so after hearing this he has decided to keep them anyway.

However, since I do alot of business with the local dealer, I am able to offer up the same deal now, $2500 shipped. I will post details in my vendor section.

[2fnloud]

I apologize for hastily jumping to conclusions. With the availability of this deal I almost wish I needed one.

[gltasn]

I apologize for hastily jumping to conclusions. With the availability of this deal I almost wish I needed one.

happens to all of us but your cool for owning up to it! i will prob buy one to have around. i dont ever plan on selling my girl.

[2fnloud]

Thanks, I don't ever plan on selling mine either, I don't need one because my baby only has 28,xxx original miles.

[duke3k]

Ok, So I have come across some more information on this. Here it is.

Point (1) This Mitsu offer as you can see below if you look closely at the part numbers applies also to the 5 speed Getrags.
Point (2) It does not appear that these are new production runs , they are however being shipped from Japan.
Point (3) If you can find a dealer that is selling at the recommended Offer MSRP cost or below you can get a brand new 6 speed for $1800 - which is ridiculous. Don't know why the 5-Speed is so much more.

And just to make your life easy here's what I'm seeing on the part numbers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
MB896234 = Getrag W6MG1 - 6 Speed
MR111883 = Getrag W5MG1 - 5 Speed
MN156477 = Transfer Case Assembly, 5–speed, small shaft
MN156478 = Transfer Case Assembly, 5–speed, large shaft
MN156479 = Transfer Case Assembly, 6–speed


http://www.colorado3s.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=194 (http://www.colorado3s.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=194)


Duke

[Nihil]

Man, if these are coming from Japan, I wonder if there's a way to find the JDM part number and order the JDM 6spd for the "MR/JDM" gearing

[GTOJOE]

So does the local dealer have to place an order before Jan 21st and after that it's no longer? Also can someone confirm the part number for the 6 speed is infact the USDM part number?

OK I checked USDM and JDM ASA/CAPS and confirm part numbers. I wonder how much cheaper this would be than a complete rebuild and beef up at Jacks.

What would be needed on a stock 6 speed to handle 600AWHP?

[2fnloud]

Bell housing brace, Billet end cap, 300m output shaft.

I was all excited to order one of these but in all reality I don't need to. My whole car has less then 30,000 miles, so after some thought I decided that my money would be better put towards the above mentioned things. Starting with the Bell housing brace, when the syncros give me issues, than I will have Jacks do their thing.

[Hans@GZP]

Man, if these are coming from Japan, I wonder if there's a way to find the JDM part number and order the JDM 6spd for the "MR/JDM" gearing

You can get the JDM 6 speeds for pretty cheap if you look around. They will be used, but they are a bit cheaper than the USDM ones you can find used.

[Nihil]

You can get the JDM 6 speeds for pretty cheap if you look around. They will be used, but they are a bit cheaper than the USDM ones you can find used.

Yeah, I was just wondering if they were going to be offering the JDM's new as well

[toddrs93]

Ok, So I have come across some more information on this. Here it is.

Point (1) This Mitsu offer as you can see below if you look closely at the part numbers applies also to the 5 speed Getrags.
Point (2) It does not appear that these are new production runs , they are however being shipped from Japan.
Point (3) If you can find a dealer that is selling at the recommended Offer MSRP cost or below you can get a brand new 6 speed for $1800 - which is ridiculous. Don't know why the 5-Speed is so much more.

And just to make your life easy here's what I'm seeing on the part numbers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
MB896234 = Getrag W6MG1 - 6 Speed
MR111883 = Getrag W5MG1 - 5 Speed
MN156477 = Transfer Case Assembly, 5–speed, small shaft
MN156478 = Transfer Case Assembly, 5–speed, large shaft
MN156479 = Transfer Case Assembly, 6–speed


http://www.colorado3s.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=194 (http://www.colorado3s.org/MGalleryItem.php?id=194)


Duke

Interesting, all I know is what my rep is telling me...

[toddrs93]

Point (2) It does not appear that these are new production runs , they are however being shipped from Japan.


How do you know this?

[duke3k]

How do you know this?

On the production run new or not - that's speculation on my part I have been unable to confirm either way. Regarding them being shipped from Japan , that's my interpretation of the phrase in the dealer note " ...Available exclusively as a special order item from Japan...."

Duke

[J. Fast]

Bell housing brace, Billet end cap, 300m output shaft.

I was all excited to order one of these but in all reality I don't need to. My whole car has less then 30,000 miles, so after some thought I decided that my money would be better put towards the above mentioned things. Starting with the Bell housing brace, when the syncros give me issues, than I will have Jacks do their thing.

Why do you need a Billet end cover or a 300M output shaft? Just put in a carbon fiber driveshaft and take the harmonic whip out of the t-case spool and keep it from sending torsional vibrations back thru the trans. If your tolerances are good there is no need. The bellhousing brace is needed because it's designed for redistributing the point loads on the transmission bellhousing stop and pivot ball when the clutch fork slams against the belhousing on gearshifts (which leads to cracking). If you switched to a hydraulic TOB like a Tilton you don't even need the bellhousing brace. Keep the geartooth alignment in spec, the engine from moving, and the driveshaft from whipping and purchase a driveshaft that absorbs torsional vibrations and you're good well into the 700+ range.

Stock Trans can handle the power if setup correctly. I would trunst a OEM trans with 0 miles over a 15 year old trans 7 days a week, and $1800 is rediculiously cheap... There's not even a core charge.

[DG]

I put a CF driveshaft into my race car specifically to stop it from shattering transmissions.

It didn't work.

It MAY have helped extend the service interval, but I couldn't find any evidence one way or the other.

Don't hang your hat on a CF driveshaft. It's not a bad thing, but neither is it a cure-all.

DG

[2fnloud]

I was thinking that info Jfast posted was not entirely correct. To my understanding, the bell housing brace helps keep the center and intermediate shafts from pushing and pulling bell housing to pieces. The Billet end cap is for the same reasons but adds the input shaft to the equation.

I have never read about the shift fork slamming into the bell housing causing it to break.

I was looking at an exploded view of the 6 speed tranny, what is a "harmonic whip? Also TOB, what is that? I thought we had a hydraulic system in your 3s already?

[Nihil]

TOB is Throw Out Bearing, and the only part that's hydraulic is the clutch pedal, it, in turn, pushes on a mechanical fork that mechanically moves the TOB...Either way, though, a CF driveshaft isn't going to fix anything, it's just going to alleviate some of the stress, the only thing that would really help though, is beefing up parts, such as billet end cases, to ENDURE the stress...those are our best options and always will be...because you're IMPROVING a parts design...

[J. Fast]

I was thinking that info Jfast posted was not entirely correct. To my understanding, the bell housing brace helps keep the center and intermediate shafts from pushing and pulling bell housing to pieces. The Billet end cap is for the same reasons but adds the input shaft to the equation.

I have never read about the shift fork slamming into the bell housing causing it to break.

I was looking at an exploded view of the 6 speed tranny, what is a "harmonic whip? Also TOB, what is that? I thought we had a hydraulic system in your 3s already?

I would tend to think If you're breaking anything on the bellhousing side then it's clutch related. Think about it, how does our clutch engage and disengage? Where do the critical parts rest? What happens if your clutch is dragging or your stepheight is set incorrectly? How much more force or leverage do you need to apply with a heavier pressure plate? What are the critical points when utilizing a clutchfork cluch system and where are they attached?

This is my take on drivetrain. maybe it's that I just have wierd theory's, but no one has yet to disprove so I will hold them until the day comes.

If the gears are able to climb on eachother (push and pull as you say) and they're able to move away from eachother as you stated then the tooth contact on one of the shafts must be set incorrectly which means the bearing races are not shimmed correctly. Now it's certaily a possibility that over time with an increase in power and thermal expansion and contracton the factory tolerances grow. With all those moving parts it certainly wouldn't take much clearance error before things get out of sync.

Two things that a crankshaft design engineer validated some time ago by posting an article about harmonics. There's torsional vibration redistributed to the crankshaft from the bob weights of all things attached and rotating about the crankshaft. The harmonics are redistributed down the crankshaft and either absorbed by a crank dampener or get redistributed to the flywheel, either way the harmonics will travel down the crankshaft until their energy can be absorbed by a body at either end. If you're putting down 600plus hp what type of crankdampener are you using? If it's the stock one that's a mistake because it wasn't designed for the bobweight of anything other than stock. So everything gets absobed into the stock dampener and what isn't is redistributed back thru the crankshaft thru the flywheel which in turn transfers into the input shaft which rests on the endcover. So it's possible that the endcover is now absorbing one torsional vibration from the engine side.

Now lets talk about the rearend and harmonics in a driveshaft. The driveshaft has it's own harmonic resonant freq and the vibration either gets sent back thru the rear diff, the t-case (which in turn sends it back thru the output shaft), or can be contained with the addition of a CF driveshaft, which several PST and ACPT harmonic balance studies have proven.

So now we have two sets of different torsional vibrations being distributed to the endcover one from the input shaft and one from the output shaft. If either harmonic resonance is left undampened the shafts assumingly start to resonate. They probably chatter or vibrate which in turn causes things to move. Aluminum and steel don't make for good shock absorbers so make your own guess about what happens next.

I think it's the whole picture and being critical of every piece and understanding the weak points. What I have come to understand in drivetrain is the big pieces to be critical of are quieting engine movement, quieting body movement (so suspension work), crankshaft dampening, driveshaft dampening, clutch selection whch includes the pressure plate and type of flyweel, and the type of clutch release bearing being utilized. IMHO those are the big big things that lead to breaking things. On my CC Team 3 crewmembers have DSM's pushing 800+wheel tq, 3 have DSM's pushing 500+, a seventh is running near 700 wheel tq in a Stealth, and I'm pushing over 600 tq aswell. That's 8 Mitsu's and not one person on my team has a billet end cover from Shep, TRE or Jack, just CF driveshafts and hydraulic TOB setups and hoop braces for a select few that put them in when we were once running clutchfork setups.

We do break drivetrain parts on our respective cars and the last problem to be had was from launching and it was on my car. I launched at 7000 rpm in my 3/S and bent my clutchfork and froze an ACT unsprung clutch disc to my flywheel, problems that were resolved on out Team Captains car a long time ago, Erron Spalsbury.

My new setup was designed by another of my team members and brought to life by Erron. It's a custom designed flywheel, Tilton OT-2 clutch, and a Tilton hydraulic TOB. Erron has ran this for well over 2 years and has had 0 problems.

IMHO The biggest power limiting factor is using a stock clutchfork setup to move a 600lb pressure plate and the clutches designed to be used with that setup.

Great discussion guys.

[duke3k]

IPS Motorsports has posted on that "other" forum that they are selling these same new 6 speeds for $1478 - not including shipping.

It just keeps getting better.

The thread may now return to the Subverted Drivetrain Dynamics 101 discussion or maybe its 201. Nice discussion.

Duke

[Nihil]

I would tend to think If you're breaking anything on the bellhousing side then it's clutch related. Think about it, how does our clutch engage and disengage? Where do the critical parts rest? What happens if your clutch is dragging or your stepheight is set incorrectly? How much more force or leverage do you need to apply with a heavier pressure plate? What are the critical points when utilizing a clutchfork cluch system and where are they attached?

This is my take on drivetrain. maybe it's that I just have wierd theory's, but no one has yet to disprove so I will hold them until the day comes.

If the gears are able to climb on eachother (push and pull as you say) and they're able to move away from eachother as you stated then the tooth contact on one of the shafts must be set incorrectly which means the bearing races are not shimmed correctly. Now it's certaily a possibility that over time with an increase in power and thermal expansion and contracton the factory tolerances grow. With all those moving parts it certainly wouldn't take much clearance error before things get out of sync.

Two things that a crankshaft design engineer validated some time ago by posting an article about harmonics. There's torsional vibration redistributed to the crankshaft from the bob weights of all things attached and rotating about the crankshaft. The harmonics are redistributed down the crankshaft and either absorbed by a crank dampener or get redistributed to the flywheel, either way the harmonics will travel down the crankshaft until their energy can be absorbed by a body at either end. If you're putting down 600plus hp what type of crankdampener are you using? If it's the stock one that's a mistake because it wasn't designed for the bobweight of anything other than stock. So everything gets absobed into the stock dampener and what isn't is redistributed back thru the crankshaft thru the flywheel which in turn transfers into the input shaft which rests on the endcover. So it's possible that the endcover is now absorbing one torsional vibration from the engine side.

Now lets talk about the rearend and harmonics in a driveshaft. The driveshaft has it's own harmonic resonant freq and the vibration either gets sent back thru the rear diff, the t-case (which in turn sends it back thru the output shaft), or can be contained with the addition of a CF driveshaft, which several PST and ACPT harmonic balance studies have proven.

So now we have two sets of different torsional vibrations being distributed to the endcover one from the input shaft and one from the output shaft. If either harmonic resonance is left undampened the shafts assumingly start to resonate. They probably chatter or vibrate which in turn causes things to move. Aluminum and steel don't make for good shock absorbers so make your own guess about what happens next.

I think it's the whole picture and being critical of every piece and understanding the weak points. What I have come to understand in drivetrain is the big pieces to be critical of are quieting engine movement, quieting body movement (so suspension work), crankshaft dampening, driveshaft dampening, clutch selection whch includes the pressure plate and type of flyweel, and the type of clutch release bearing being utilized. IMHO those are the big big things that lead to breaking things. On my CC Team 3 crewmembers have DSM's pushing 800+wheel tq, 3 have DSM's pushing 500+, a seventh is running near 700 wheel tq in a Stealth, and I'm pushing over 600 tq aswell. That's 8 Mitsu's and not one person on my team has a billet end cover from Shep, TRE or Jack, just CF driveshafts and hydraulic TOB setups and hoop braces for a select few that put them in when we were once running clutchfork setups.

We do break drivetrain parts on our respective cars and the last problem to be had was from launching and it was on my car. I launched at 7000 rpm in my 3/S and bent my clutchfork and froze an ACT unsprung clutch disc to my flywheel, problems that were resolved on out Team Captains car a long time ago, Erron Spalsbury.

My new setup was designed by another of my team members and brought to life by Erron. It's a custom designed flywheel, Tilton OT-2 clutch, and a Tilton hydraulic TOB. Erron has ran this for well over 2 years and has had 0 problems.

IMHO The biggest power limiting factor is using a stock clutchfork setup to move a 600lb pressure plate and the clutches designed to be used with that setup.

Great discussion guys.

I'm just throwin this out there...you've got valid points, but you've also named Erron as team captain, and you, of course...and I'm guessing the others with their cars are just as experienced as you two also...So I'm gonna say, some of the success you guys have had is also due to your level of experience, that's gonna play a major part in anything, you've all got experience and finesse. If a person knows how to drive hard, but be smooth, things are gonna last longer. It's kinda like when I'm drivin around town, watchin everyone hit every damn pothole in the road, while I'm avoiding them, those cars are gettin a lot more beat than mine...just the same as someone gettin in their car and dumpin the clutch everywhere and slammin through the gears, compaired to finessing through everything, shifting the car when IT wants to be shifted, not to mention, it sounds like you're comparing road course to drag, I think that's where the most people have drivetrain failures, in drag, where you dump n go and everything hits at once with the torque and wants to pull apart.

I believe that's why supercar made the dogbox, straight cut gears don't want to pull apart at higher torque ratings

I'm by no means an experct, this is just my thoughts on the subject

[J. Fast]

http://visual.merriam-webster.com/images/science/physics-mechanics/lever.jpg

The clutch setup doesn't matter for drag racing or road course, it's understanding the fatal flaw in the stock clutch setup that makes this really simple. Take this lever, the side labeled "bar" would be where the slave cylinder applies pressure to the clutchfork. The "pivot" would be our pivot ball mounted to the bellhousing, the load would be the weight of the pressure plate fingers on the TOB, and the clutchfork would be the bar.

One thing you can see for certain, as the load on one end inceases the force required to raise it on the opposite side of the pivot point increases. The (3) big things to grasp from this. (1) The pivot must support the load for the entire setup. In our case our pivot is attached to the bellhousing and to increase mechanical advantage the pivot can be shimmed. (2) Both the load and effort side have a force being applied in the same direction which will cause the bar in this illustration to bend. If you bent the bar in the direction of effort how much less mechanical advantage would you have? The last of the big points (3) if you suddenly remove all of the effort but still have the weight attached to the load side it comes crashing down until it's movement is halted. For illustration think of the system as a seesaw. Jump off one side and watch the person on the other side slam into the gound, in this case the stopping point would be the bellhousing.

The big thing on this is the stock fork and geometry of the system were based on raising a 300lb system. They were not designed to rase a 600 + lb system. The other thing is the distance you have to raise the load is dependant on the pressure plate being utilized. The distance from the pressure plate forks and the bellhousing was optimized for a stock pressure plate and it's known fixed distance from the housing. Any clutch setup that isn't stock often changes the geometry because the distance is smaller or greater which in turn will change the mechanical advantage of the lever in the illustration moving the load to a fixed height.

[2fnloud]

OK understanding that the fulcrum point is having to endure double the weight, that I understand. Where the 300 and 600 LBS just examples or is that actual know forces from the stock clutch to upgrade clutch?

So what are the options? stay OEM clutch and go easy on it during launches?

[Nihil]

That makes total sense, but I still don't understand why this would contribute to end cases or transfer cases splitting. What makes more sense to me are the gears, helical gears vs straight cut, helical gears, with additional torque will want to push away from each other, which splits end cases, which, still makes me believe, with higher HP/TQ cars, you'll need to A) Modify the gears to straight cut, like supercars dog box, or B) Beef up the end case via Broomfield or someone else along with beefing up the brace for the transfer case, or the case itself.

What you're describing, Pivot type mechanical shifting vs. hydraulic shifting, that would, in my opinion, seem to only affect clutch pedal feel, hydraulic would be a lot easier and smoother, which would be a lot nicer when you ARE running a heavy pressure plate.

[GTOJOE]

There seems to be a glitch on this page. It says there is a new post [by Nihil] but doesn't show it....

OK now it shows up on the 2nd page. Previously there was no 2nd page until I posted. Oh well fixed now :\

[toddrs93]

Wow, I guess we have to adjust prices accordingly. Gee I wonder how long until shop #xx buys them all up, holds them 6 months, then sells them for triple the price; oops did I say that out loud?

WOW just had to quote myself since my answer just popped up. 0nly took a few months and the thread pops up where shop xyz is selling them now at the "HUGE one time cheapest discount ever", of $4000.
Gotta love the business model that certain places prove over and over again. Takes money to f people and make money lol.

[dbest671]

WOW just had to quote myself since my answer just popped up. 0nly took a few months and the thread pops up where shop xyz is selling them now at the "HUGE one time cheapest discount ever", of $4000.
Gotta love the business model that certain places prove over and over again. Takes money to f people and make money lol.

:stupid:

Glad, I managed to get my 6 speed from Cherry Hill for $18xx.00 shipped without a core charge. But then again I don't have a business to run.

[green-lantern]

I wish I had the cash when they were available.

[dbest671]

Cherry Hill only receive 1 of the 2 they ordered (before the sell off was made public). There was another guy that was supposed to get the other one. Cherry Hill seems to be the only dealership that received ANY 6 speeds.

[MADMarc]

Yay for getting one for an awesome price from Cherry Hill thanks to ^^^ :) Thanks again. No core charge was hawt...I'm a bit shocked that they are requiring cores on transmissions to maximize even more of the profit to be had. I got a new tcase for 400 shipped and trans for about the same price as dbest. Jesus, that's still 100% markup on a "sale" price. SHIT BALLS!