Limits of our motors

[Unknownvr4]

Ok, so me and a friend just got out of a heated argument on what the motors could hold stock. I dont believe this is covered on here yet so i decided to start this thread.

He thinks that if i put 19t turbos on that my motor will blow.

I tried explaining that the limits of the 2 bolts were around 500 hp and the 4 bolts were 700 hp i believe. He also thinks that at that power level, a stock timing belt would pop. I tried telling him no matter what hp level your car is at, whether at 100hp or 1000hp, your timing belt spins the same speeds. His dad which is supposed to be a mechanic agrees with him.

Please only chime in if you know for sure, dont chime in if you just think you know. I would like some of the shops who have actually taken the cars to the limits to chime in for me.

Thanks,
Benn

[2fnloud]

in for an education

[Unknownvr4]

I hope 3sx chris posts in this thread. I know he took a 2 bolt to its limit before but i dont remeber what it was.

[2fnloud]

Yeah I know he got his up there too I wanna say like in the 700's.

[boosted3s]

Had to be Brad lol

[x2percentmilk]

Timing belts dont hold any load, so I cant imagine power levels affecting them.

[Unknownvr4]

Had to be Brad lol

How'd you guess? We were going at it for an hour and he's trying to tell me that bills 79 T/A is pushing 600 hp because it has a cam in it... 400 cubic inch motors that year made 200 hp. I hung up on him when he started trying to tell me my cars already unreliable when in fact, the car has only really had 2 issues with it by itself..Everything else thats went wrong with it has been my fault.


Timing belts dont hold any load, so I cant imagine power levels affecting them.

Exactly.

[GTwizard]

You must remember that power and motor longevity will have 90% to do with the tune. You can blow these motors at 200 hp you don't know what your doing.
And it's about prepping a motor correctly for it's intended use. Build it like a drag motor and go road course with it and you will kill it in no time. A good road race motor is not going to do well at the drags. All that being said. Safe Power = wallet size. Even when bulding stock block motors. No one will win the argument. The silly timing belt question. Power has little to do with Timing belt speed.

[MR2]

"Stock motors" generally some point past 500hp people start to crack pistons(does not matter 2 bolt or 4 bolt)
timing belts are the same on even 1300hp 3000GT's lol
the only thing with heads/cams that limit power is flow potential and when the springs start to float, the whole spring floating thing is due to too much RPM..not exactly power related.

IF you swap the pistons + rods then I think with a near perfect tune the 2 bolt was starting to back the bolts out at what..800 hp? the 4 bolt guys generally have not had too many problems going 1300hp + that I've heard.

back to your actual issue, generally idiots ARE idiots becouse they don't listen to reason or doing their own research, I would not generally bother discussing it..just do what you want with your car and nod at them when they say silly things.

[mb3000]

In for numbers.

[FeaRpb]

What is the limit of the stock mitsu rods?

Say you have a forged crank but stock rods, how much power will those rods hold before bending or breaking?

[mh3kgt]

In for limits of stock rods. I thought it was around 500hp or so, but not positive. I have forged crank and pistons in my block, but still stock rods.

[Caswell239]

Also intrigued. Chris.... Where are you???

[2fnloud]

In for limits of stock rods. I thought it was around 500hp or so, but not positive. I have forged crank and pistons in my block, but still stock rods.

Well we know that the stock rods can hold around 600 HP because Matt DR750's on his 95 maxed at like 623. His engine is stock.

[Unknownvr4]

This is what i was also thinking cause there are stock motors well over 500 not cracking pistons.

Thank you steve for a actual good addition to the thread this time.

As for highest number on a known stock motor, Daves red 97 19t vr4 made 661awhp. But thats all i know of...

[mh3kgt]

Well we know that the stock rods can hold around 600 HP because Matt DR750's on his 95 maxed at like 623. His engine is stock.

Ah true...hmm looks like I'm fine with my plans for the car then. Biggest I'll probably ever go is 19t or DR750's. 15g's right now will suffice tho

[Hammer]

Gasoline is very unforgiving. That said if you mess up even a little bit during the tune process you can and probably will damage the engine. Cracked pistons and spun bearings or broken rods twisted cranks all can happen at around that 500+hp number on cast internals. If you get the tune right the first run and avoid the damage then it can hold 19T power levels as long as you do not get a load of bad gas. Understand you are at the edge of the limit which requires a perfect tune all the time. All it takes is one run slightly out of tune with bad gas or whatever and damage occurs.

E85 is more forgiving on the tune at these power levels and probably can pull more power mostly because of this fact without causing damage. However if you flood the engine with too much E85 you can dilute the oil and still spin bearings. The main difference is not so much the 2 bolt vs the 4 bolt but the forged vs cast issue. Cast cranks just will not stand up for long at over 500 hp levels. Neither will cast rods. I believe some 2 bolts have forged internals. I also believe all 4 bolts are forged not sure though.

You never said if your block was 2 bolt or 4 bolt. But more than that are your crank and rods forged or cast? On 19T's it might run for a while on cast internals but they will not have much longevity if you are pushing over 500hp. All it would take is a bad tune or a bad batch of gas to blow it.

[MR2]

when I said 500 hp ish...I was pretty much indicating what Hammer just said. the 600hp that people quite requires incredible precision and I don't exactly that anyone else will get near that.

if you sit on the bleeding edge expect to get cut.

[IPD]

chris has gotten a 2-bolt to 700whp without bracing. i remember the posts. it was somewhere around 770whp where it started to push bolts.

tell your friend that $50 says that a properly tuned 4-bolt can put down upwards of 800whp on stock internals. granted, you "might" have to run e85 to do it...but it's doable.

[Unknownvr4]

chris has gotten a 2-bolt to 700whp without bracing. i remember the posts. it was somewhere around 770whp where it started to push bolts.

tell your friend that $50 says that a properly tuned 4-bolt can put down upwards of 800whp on stock internals. granted, you "might" have to run e85 to do it...but it's doable.

The only problem with this is that E85 is scarce here and we only have one filling station around here. I believe that station stopped carrying it also. I'll have to do the meth injection route to get around that i believe

[green-lantern]

Ok, so me and a friend just got out of a heated argument on what the motors could hold stock. I dont believe this is covered on here yet so i decided to start this thread.

He thinks that if i put 19t turbos on that my motor will blow.

I tried explaining that the limits of the 2 bolts were around 500 hp and the 4 bolts were 700 hp i believe. He also thinks that at that power level, a stock timing belt would pop. I tried telling him no matter what hp level your car is at, whether at 100hp or 1000hp, your timing belt spins the same speeds. His dad which is supposed to be a mechanic agrees with him.

Please only chime in if you know for sure, dont chime in if you just think you know. I would like some of the shops who have actually taken the cars to the limits to chime in for me.

Thanks,
Benn

Your friend is an idiot.

[Unknownvr4]

Your friend is an idiot.

Believe me, i already know. This is coming from someone who sackrides chevys and LS motors... I don't expect too much intelligence from someone like that..

[jbuhrman]

Believe me, i already know. This is coming from someone who sackrides chevys and LS motors... I don't expect too much intelligence from someone like that..

Matt M ran a 9 with stock internals WAYYYYY back in the day before he went stroker and all that. I was trying to find the thread but got lazy

[green-lantern]

Believe me, i already know. This is coming from someone who sackrides chevys and LS motors... I don't expect too much intelligence from someone like that..

Remember, never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. :lo5l:

I think Chris was almost at 800hp on a 2 bolt but I think he might of had 3sx rods.

Timing belt would pop :lol: that's great stuff!

[green-lantern]

<---1000th post! I'm a post whore

[mb3000]

<---1000th post! I'm a post whore

:PostWhore:Congratulations:PostWhore:

:stewie:

[IPD]

yes you are. i've got 1/2 of that, mr. uber whore. or shall i call you "new stealthee"?

[akotten]

I guess I still do more reading than most whoring.

[FeaRpb]

I guess I will just got a built 3.1 minus the forged rods.

[onebadmollafolla]

Your friend is an idiot.

This. And his unfortunate mechanic father.

[a2j]

timing belt will pop? lol maybe they meant supercharger belt...

[stealthee]

To make them feel stupid, ask exactly how a timing belt knows horsepower.

[thor'svr4]

in for some good quality info. i always just assumed that i would never have the power to break anything internal so i never worried about it. i am curious what a oem forged crank with 3sx rods and pistons would take.

[MaxClass]

My current build is from my ’92 TT [130k] and is a two bolt block. I replaced the crank with a forged one and had the crank turned and polished to perfection. Stock rods where rebuild/honed to perfect round and oil holes added for the full floating wrist pins and mated with Wiseco Forged Aluminum 8:1 Pistons with ARP bolts tightened to ARP’s specs prior to honing. Block bored for the pistons [minimum oversize] with ARP 2 Bolt Stud Kit. Bottom end fully balanced.

With 19T’s, Stage 3 heads with ARP studs with Brian Crower 272 Cams I should be able to hit 600HP if I push it. Sure I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed from the minute I start it but I’m not one to do stupid and foolish things to my investments. This is my daily driver and I’m not afraid to get on it but I did not build it to abuse it. My AEM True Boost controller will keep things under check [maybe 10-12 pounds] until I get my full tune and AEM EMS II.

If these guys out there can get 600HP from a stock engine with stock factory machining by just upping the boost then a clean precision built engine can certainly do it easily.

Somewhere I have heard 700HP with stock rods and 2 bolt engines.

I don’t feel that 2 Bolts and stock rods are the problem when everything is properly machined to perfection, fully balanced and with perfect clearances.

Trying the 600HP stunt on a stock setup with lots of miles is way to risky unless you have more money than sense. Never the less it shows how strong these engines are.

MaxNote: My machine shop informed me that my 130k 2 bolt block had perfectly round main journals when they tested them for roundness. A tribute to the quality of these engines.

P.S. Remember who trained your friend and let him go his own misinformed way. He’s probably still trying to get 350HP from a NA Mustang. Nuff said.

[Hammer]

My current build is from my ’92 TT [130k] and is a two bolt block. I replaced the crank with a forged one and had the crank turned and polished to perfection. Stock rods where rebuild/honed to perfect round and oil holes added for the full floating wrist pins and mated with Wiseco Forged Aluminum 8:1 Pistons with ARP bolts tightened to ARP’s specs prior to honing. Block bored for the pistons [minimum oversize] with ARP 2 Bolt Stud Kit. Bottom end fully balanced.

With 19T’s, Stage 3 heads with ARP studs with Brian Crower 272 Cams I should be able to hit 600HP if I push it. Sure I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed from the minute I start it but I’m not one to do stupid and foolish things to my investments. This is my daily driver and I’m not afraid to get on it but I did not build it to abuse it. My AEM True Boost controller will keep things under check [maybe 10-12 pounds] until I get my full tune and AEM EMS II.

If these guys out there can get 600HP from a stock engine with stock factory machining by just upping the boost then a clean precision built engine can certainly do it easily.

Somewhere I have heard 700HP with stock rods and 2 bolt engines.

I don’t feel that 2 Bolts and stock rods are the problem when everything is properly machined to perfection, fully balanced and with perfect clearances.

Trying the 600HP stunt on a stock setup with lots of miles is way to risky unless you have more money than sense. Never the less it shows how strong these engines are.

MaxNote: My machine shop informed me that my 130k 2 bolt block had perfectly round main journals when they tested them for roundness. A tribute to the quality of these engines.

P.S. Remember who trained your friend and let him go his own misinformed way. He’s probably still trying to get 350HP from a NA Mustang. Nuff said.

Solid build. Only weak spot is the stock rods and 2 bolt main. Still if you avoid detonation and get a good tune do not run out of fuel pump etc then your build should hold up to 600 hp. Keep in mind that is at the wheels, your engine is producing more like 750 hp and that is the stress on its internals. As long as the power remains smooth the rods and 2 bolt main should hold. But if you start pounding on it with detonation (much higher peak loads) then those parts reach the failure point. Again the E85 builds are much less likely to see this detonation and those high peak loads just do not happen with E85. Thus most guys can run more power on weaker parts and can get away with it using E85.
The best way to think about it is shock loading. The shock load of gasoline burn is much higher than E85 is. Peak cylinder pressure is higher with gas than E85. E85 has a longer duration steadier power stroke less instant load but longer duration to get the power, thus easier on engine internals. Gas is more of an instant burn then coast for much of the rotation cycle. In order to get the power out of gas you need to contain that instant burn without detonation and without melting things. Much trickier to do right than E85 is. E85 also burns cooler. Puts less heat stress into your pistons and valves.

In other words 700 awhp may be possible on stock rods with E85 but not with gasoline. But even on E85 the high stress will eventually cause them to fail.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

600 AWHP on stock rods can be done, but the rods can give up eventually, even with a very tiny amount of knock. I would not run stock rods over 550AWHP.

When I need do a rebuild I'm going to either go super cheap and all stock parts or have everything forged. I would not run forged pistons on stock rods.

What are you going to have in reworked and full floater converted stock rods? $200 ? $300?

for $600 you can get the 3sx or spool rods.

[MR2]

I still hold to my origional post of 500hp.

[MaxClass]

Hammer, et al,

Putting my rebuild back on the street with 360cc's and stock ECU with True Boost controller holding things around 6-8 pounds. I have no intension of showing off and wasting a lot of time and effort. My plan is to drive the car from Vegas to So. Cal and have FSR install the AEM EMS II series and tuning it there. Hopefully the EMS can handle any knock. If it can't I will have it de-tuned to where I can still run 500 HP any time I want. They will also install my 550's for the tune at that time.

Yes, a 4-bolt and 3SX rods would have been better over all but I don't slam my wheels and I will always know exactly what's under the hood and what is not. I've owned the car for the 19 years ago this month [Dec] that I drove it off the show room floor and it has always been my DD so it should hold me for at least another 10-15 or until they put me in a old folks home.

[2fnloud]

I still hold to my origional post of 500hp.

O Rly? So Snakeskinner and EricTT lied about breaking 600 AWHP with stock motor, meth, fuel support upgrades, and DR750's.

[mb3000]

O Rly? So Snakeskinner and EricTT lied about breaking 600 AWHP with stock motor, meth, fuel support upgrades, and DR750's.

He isn't saying it can't be done, he is saying that it is flirting with disaster.

[TT Eric]

I can't believe with all the knowledge people have in here, no one as chimmed in to clear some stuff.


In for limits of stock rods. I thought it was around 500hp or so, but not positive. I have forged crank and pistons in my block, but still stock rods.

Forged pistons and stock rods ?? I would preffer to have forged rods and stock pistons IF it was possible, unfortunatly stock rods are pressed pins and forged rods are floated pins, so you cannot match them, either it's all stock, or all forged.


Well we know that the stock rods can hold around 600 HP because Matt DR750's on his 95 maxed at like 623. His engine is stock.

Matt made 604 and I made 609, both are on stock internals, he had 25% race gas mix, I run pump gas.


This is what i was also thinking cause there are stock motors well over 500 not cracking pistons.

Thank you steve for a actual good addition to the thread this time.

As for highest number on a known stock motor, Daves red 97 19t vr4 made 661awhp. But thats all i know of...

Daves as forged internals.

And biggest WHP done on a STOCK engine was by Matt M. with 714WHP.

Eric

[akotten]

Actually you can run forged pistons on stock rods, using the proper methods. No, you don't get fully floating wrist pins, but it can be done.


Edit: hmm...you said stock pistons and forged rods, that combo might not work. But I know the opposite does.