Extreme contact or... Ecsta?

[GordonRamsey]

Well winter is coming and I need some good rain/snow tires. Not necessarily snow, but mostly something to withstand the temperature. Feels like it's gonna be a cold one. I'm stuck between Continental Extreme Contact DWS and Kumho Ecsta AST's. I know the Continental's are very recommended but are a bit on the expensive side. (even for 225/50/16) So the AST's look like a real deal at only 260 for all four. What you say ye? Any good or bad experiences with either?

[stealthee]

225/50's are too short, the proper size is 225/55.

That being said AST's are All Season. I ran with 245/45/17 ASX's a few winters back and didnt really have any isues. I drove on some pretty bad roads a few times too. That being said, nothing can really replace some good winter tires. Worse comes to worse get 2 ASTs for the rear, and 2 Extreme Contacts for the front.

[Maximal]

Are these winter only tires? If so why not just go with a snow tire? Blizzaks will get you anywhere you want to go in whatever snow there is. Might be a bit pricey but probably worth it.

[Jeremy C]

Agree with Terry. If you're going to get winter tires, buy some actual winter tires. I used a set of Blizzak WS-50's on my Focus through 2 winters before moving to AZ, and they instill serious confidence when cruising in crappy conditions. Noisy, wobbly when warm, and wear out fast, but DAMN they chew up snow like nothing else.

[Valhallaz]

I love the DWS's. I've run them on everything from dry to ice. Yeah, a little pricey, but they stick on anything. So far (10k or so) treadwear is great.
A real winter tire would no doubt be better on snow, but for all season I don't think you can beat the DWS.

[steve]

I've owned both the DWS (and the earlier extreme contact) and the ASX but never tried the AST's. If you need snow traction, which you say isn't the main worry, the DWS are much better tires. The Kuhmos don't have anywhere near the grip of the Continental's rain or snow but they do have acceptable performance, stiffer sidewalls, and longer wear. If price is the major factor then the Kuhmos may be one of the best for the buck.

If you live in a place where snow and ice are common most of the winter then dedicated winter tires are the way to go but dry roads tend to do them in quickly. I hate only getting a couple years out Blizzaks before they don't do what they're made to do anymore.

[BjornRune]

Nokian Hakkapeliitta R or Nokian Hakkapeliitta Rsi! They are, along with Blizzaks, probably the best snow tires out there. I have run all 3 and feel the Nokians edge out the Blizzaks in all aspects, especially threadwear on dry roads. Breakaway on wet roads is also very predictable, and traction in such conditions is great for being snow tires.

[Polygon]

I've owned both the DWS (and the earlier extreme contact) and the ASX but never tried the AST's. If you need snow traction, which you say isn't the main worry, the DWS are much better tires. The Kuhmos don't have anywhere near the grip of the Continental's rain or snow but they do have acceptable performance, stiffer sidewalls, and longer wear. If price is the major factor then the Kuhmos may be one of the best for the buck.

When I was still DD my Stealth I had the AST on it and drove it through one winter. They did pretty good for an all season tire. If price is a concern then the AST is a pretty good value. However, I agree that if you're getting a tires just for winter duty, just go for the gold and get a winter tire.

[OhioSpyderman]

My current set on the Stealth (my winter daily) are the older model Continental's. They have provided me with over 60K trouble free miles. My new DSW's should be here tomorrow, and I'm looking forward to another 60K trouble free....

@$126 per tire, they're on the low end of the Spectrum for stock TT tires and wear VERY well.

I'll report back in a few days, once they're mounted and balanced :)

Bob.

EDIT, I would go with a straight winter tire if the Stealth didn't pick up the slack when the weather isn't perfect in the OTHER seasons :)

[DocWalt]

I had ASXs on my Supra and I drove that through a winter. Even managed to make it up one of the steepest hills in the area with four or five inches of snow on the ground.

[GordonRamsey]

my Supra

I envy you.


Aside from that thanks everyone for the great responses. I think I should explain a little better. While these will be used during the winter months, I'm mostly buying them because of the cold and wet weather from time to time. As I understand it isnt advised to use summer tires during winter (duh). I will never take it out in the snow intentionally, maybe for some dnow drifting one day, but less than a few times. I'm looking for something that can give good dry performance when I feel I want to spirit drive, and also rain. I also want it to get me home if I get caught in a snow storm. Looks like DWS would be best but man they are expensive even for my small rims. I also heard the ASX's are terrible in the snow, but those reviews were on other cars. Keep in mind I'm fwd, not a tt capable of acceleration in the snow. :P

[OhioSpyderman]

Just thought I'd add that if it winter wasn't approaching I would NOT hesitate to continue to drive with the old set (they still have about an 1/8" till it hits the wear bars)....

I'm sure I could easily get 75,000 out of them if it would stay nice, but I want to be prepared for that WHITE SHIT!!!!

Bob.

[DocWalt]

I envy you.


Aside from that thanks everyone for the great responses. I think I should explain a little better. While these will be used during the winter months, I'm mostly buying them because of the cold and wet weather from time to time. As I understand it isnt advised to use summer tires during winter (duh). I will never take it out in the snow intentionally, maybe for some dnow drifting one day, but less than a few times. I'm looking for something that can give good dry performance when I feel I want to spirit drive, and also rain. I also want it to get me home if I get caught in a snow storm. Looks like DWS would be best but man they are expensive even for my small rims. I also heard the ASX's are terrible in the snow, but those reviews were on other cars. Keep in mind I'm fwd, not a tt capable of acceleration in the snow. :P

Don't envy me, it was a POS.

Trust me, don't drive on summer tires in the winter. It sucks, it's dangerous, and you'll fear for your car every time you need to stop or turn... ya know, nothing important :p Two winters on summer tires on the VR-4 was absolutely frightening.

The DWS would be great for what you're looking for, the ASX gets you probably 80% of the performance for a much cheaper cost. I'd do what you can to get the DWS, but you'd probably be fine on the ASX; especially since you said you'll avoid the snow which is where the ASX tires are only mediocre.

[bluemax_1]

First off, you've gotta love all the people asking for recommendations who give the barest, fewest details possible to define their requirements. Where are you located? What kind of temperatures will you be seeing? How much snowfall might you potentially get? Is this your only (or primary) vehicle? There's no free lunch. Dry handling means sacrificing wet or snow performance. Snow performance sacrifices dry performance etc.

For snow use, BjornRune is spot on. There's very little available in North America that will beat the Nokian Hakkapelliitta line.

If the car is going to be your primary vehicle (it appears you would have a separate set of summer tires?), why not get some dedicated winter tires as opposed to compromising with an all-season where they have to use a harder rubber compound to prevent undue wear in warmer weather (at the expense of cold weather traction). Jack of all trades, master of none. Or are you saying that you currently have old summer tires and simply want to replace them with something that can/will be driven year round?

Details and specifics will help you get better recommendations.

And Stealthee, recommending that someone put the better tires in front is a TERRIBLE recommendation

For future reference for EVERYONE out there if you MUST put different tires on different axles, ALWAYS put the tires with better traction on the rear axle. This is regardless of whether you're driving a fwd, rwd or awd. Quite simply, it's a safety issue. Folks tend to think, "Hey, you put the better tires on the drive axles". No, you put them on the rear.

While it would seem that putting them on the front in a fwd car makes sense (on cursory consideration) since those are the drive wheels, this is a bad practice. Putting the better traction in front will aid acceleration and turn-in, however the problem comes with braking and cornering. With better traction in front and the poorer traction in the rear, the car will be much more prone to oversteering, but the real danger is that under braking, you have less traction in the rear and the car will be much more likely to spin out ESPECIALLY in inclement weather.

There have been numerous tests conducted specificall with these setups that demonstrate that not only does a car exhibit better control under emergency braking with the better traction in the rear (stops in a straight line as opposed to spinning out), the car actually stops in a shorter distance if you have ABS. The reason is that with ABS, the wheels sense lockup which triggers the ABS. The rear wheels already have lower traction when braking due to weight transfer. With lower grip tires, they lockup much sooner, which causes the ABS to trigger earlier and continue activating longer, meaning the ABS allows the car to roll further because the rears are locking up much more easily. To reiterate, these are TESTED results, not opinion.

Although one would think that with the weight transferring forward during braking, having higher grip tires to take advantage of the greater potential traction in front would be better, with ABS, it's the opposite, AND you're more likely to spin out when braking hard. In cornering, you're also more likely to understeer with the lower traction tires in the front, but when you're understeering, simply slowing down helps avoid it in the first place (and letting off the gas when you experience understeering induces a weight transfer to increase front traction). In addition, by limiting the acceleration (in a fwd) and cornering traction in front (irrespective of drivetrain config), the driver is much more likely to instinctively/reactively reduce their speed to the traction conditions, whereas better traction in front may instill false confidence, coupled with the greater propensity to spin out.

And just to cap this off, here's an incident that actually happened to a friend of mine a few years ago. She drove a little fwd. It needed new tires and the Michigan winter had just begun. She didn't want to pay for new tires all around so she decided to just get new tires and put them on the front axle (typical improperly educated fwd driver mentality). Had I known she was going to do that, I would have told her to put them on the back. Most of the tire shops around here generally tell their customers this as well, but she managed to end up at one that DIDN'T mention this to her and did as she asked.

It snowed that week and she was on the interstate, coming round a curve. A car ahead of her began fishtailing so she applied the brakes a little to slow down. The rear end immediately stepped out and she found herself sliding sideways on the interstate shortly before a SUV T-boned her little car. She was fortunate that it wasn't worse, but she did have glass embedded in her face and a piece went in her eye. Miraculously, aside from some bruises and the cuts, she suffered no serious injury and aside from a scratch on her cornea (which healed) there was no lasting damage to her eyesight. I told her to find a lawyer to sue the tire shop for not informing her about the dangers of putting the better tires in front, but she never did.

BTW, back a few years ago, I recall reading that there were some states that do not pay out on insurance claims in winter accidents if the investigator discovers that there are different grade tires on the front and rear axles. Fortunately, MI is not one of them.


Max

[OhioSpyderman]

I would do what you recommend Max (as it make a GREAT deal of sense), but I think you know my situation (well most of it). I obviously own 2 cars myself. The garage queen only comes out when the weather is nice (like today :) ). Other times its Stealth to the rescue.

The part you may not know, is that I put close to 60 miles on (round trip) going to work every day. (I've put those 60K miles on the Stealth since I bought it, with these Continentals). The road noise is barely noticeable (my KDW's on the Spyder are louder) and they also do fairly well in the rain as well.

I personally don't own a second set of wheels (although I probably could have borrowed my middle son's winter tires/wheels, but what's his is his...) so I opt to run a harder compound and still get "decent" traction in the snow (if it's not above the frame level, I'm through it in a breeze). No tires, sans maybe a studded tire, are good on ice.

$550 (shipped) for tires that last me 5+ yrs and 60K+ miles is a reasonable choice for me....

Bob. :)

[bluemax_1]

Bob, in your case, I'd say that works just fine.

I was talking about the OP though. He didn't really indicate what his conditions were, while seeming to indicate that he might have a set of summer tires (but once again, being vague enough that it isn't possible to tell).

The recommendations would be different whether the person is driving in
- weather that averages lows in the 30's - 40's f with occasional dips below freezing where light snow of 2-3" or less may be encountered only once in a long while (all-seasons are OK, especially if the tires are meant for year round use. With separate summer/winter sets I would consider something along the lines of Dunlop's 3D or M3. Dedicated cold weather/snow tires that trade some snow performance for better dry handling. i.e. with one set, you try to get the best Jack-of-All-Trades, vs. 2 sets where you can optimally try gear each to their respective uses)
vs.
- someone driving where average lows range in the teens, single digits or lower fairly often, and snowfall of 6" and up may be encountered. (best to go with 2 sets with Nokian Hakka R or Rsi for winter use)
- Whether the tires the driver is asking a recommendation for is going to be the ONLY tires the car will be driven on year round or whether the owner has a separate set of tires that will be used in the summer etc.


Max

[GordonRamsey]

First off, you've gotta love all the people asking for recommendations who give the barest, fewest details possible to define their requirements.
Details and specifics will help you get better recommendations.

While it would seem that putting them on the front in a fwd car makes sense (on cursory consideration) since those are the drive wheels, this is a bad practice. Putting the better traction in front will aid acceleration and turn-in, however the problem comes with braking and cornering. With better traction in front and the poorer traction in the rear, the car will be much more prone to oversteering, but the real danger is that under braking, you have less traction in the rear and the car will be much more likely to spin out ESPECIALLY in inclement weather.

There have been numerous tests conducted specificall with these setups that demonstrate that not only does a car exhibit better control under emergency braking with the better traction in the rear (stops in a straight line as opposed to spinning out), the car actually stops in a shorter distance if you have ABS. The reason is that with ABS, the wheels sense lockup which triggers the ABS. The rear wheels already have lower traction when braking due to weight transfer. With lower grip tires, they lockup much sooner, which causes the ABS to trigger earlier and continue activating longer, meaning the ABS allows the car to roll further because the rears are locking up much more easily. To reiterate, these are TESTED results, not opinion.

Although one would think that with the weight transferring forward during braking, having higher grip tires to take advantage of the greater potential traction in front would be better, with ABS, it's the opposite, AND you're more likely to spin out when braking hard. In cornering, you're also more likely to understeer with the lower traction tires in the front, but when you're understeering, simply slowing down helps avoid it in the first place (and letting off the gas when you experience understeering induces a weight transfer to increase front traction). In addition, by limiting the acceleration (in a fwd) and cornering traction in front (irrespective of drivetrain config), the driver is much more likely to instinctively/reactively reduce their speed to the traction conditions, whereas better traction in front may instill false confidence, coupled with the greater propensity to spin out.

Very good read there. While stealthee's comment did cross my mind, I was never considering it. Even if that wasn't the case, I still prefer the same tires all around. As to your first part of your comment, I said I need a tire for winter. Assume it will be cold, wet, possibly snowing, and also dry at times. Winter is winter, not much more than that.

As for Doc_Walt was it a MKIV or eaarlier? Im assuming earlier.

The AST's arent available for a 225/55/16 tire. So I guess its a mix of the other two or just all DWS.

[DocWalt]

It was a MkIII N/A :p

Max, what size tire (or even what tire, I was going to use the ASX's, but if you have another suggestion) would you suggest for snow or a/s tires to fit my OEM wheels? Stock size is 245/40/18. I'm in the first group you mentioned, it's generally in the low 30's for daytime temps in the winter. I survived in the past on a/s in moderate snowfall, or not driving in the snow (besides parking lot hoonage, haha) with the VR4 on Z1's.

[Valhallaz]

245/50/16's are perfectly acceptable.

[bluemax_1]

Very good read there. While stealthee's comment did cross my mind, I was never considering it. Even if that wasn't the case, I still prefer the same tires all around. As to your first part of your comment, I said I need a tire for winter. Assume it will be cold, wet, possibly snowing, and also dry at times. Winter is winter, not much more than that.

As for Doc_Walt was it a MKIV or eaarlier? Im assuming earlier.

The AST's arent available for a 225/55/16 tire. So I guess its a mix of the other two or just all DWS.
Winter is winter, but I'm sure we can all agree that winter in Texas is a little different than winter in Colorado or Alaska. Tire compounds are made for a certain heat range (because unfortunately, no one compound has optimal traction from below zero to 100+f temps. The cutoff point is more or less how often you see below freezing temps. All-seasons are OK if you're driving in above freezing temps most of the time and occasionally see temps below freezing. Once the mercury goes into the teens and lower, even most all-season tires start giving up some traction even on dry roads (because the compound needs to NOT get too soft when the temps are in the 80's and 90's or higher since the a/s will usually be driven year round).

It's all a compromise. Ultimate dry performance in the summer compromises performance in colder weather. Optimal winter performance compromises dry and/or warm weather performance. The more spcific a person is about the conditions they encounter the better the recommendations can be. Granted, if folks are just looking for the run of the mill, "Duhh... they good. Yes" responses, then OK.


It was a MkIII N/A :p

Max, what size tire (or even what tire, I was going to use the ASX's, but if you have another suggestion) would you suggest for snow or a/s tires to fit my OEM wheels? Stock size is 245/40/18. I'm in the first group you mentioned, it's generally in the low 30's for daytime temps in the winter. I survived in the past on a/s in moderate snowfall, or not driving in the snow (besides parking lot hoonage, haha) with the VR4 on Z1's.

In those conditions, I actually like sticking to the stock size tire. I would go with something like the Dunlop 3D for more winter weather (i.e. wet, slush or snow) capability + pretty decent dry weather performance or you could try the DWS for lower price, better ability to handle higher temps, better dry handling at the expense of lower performance in snow and when the temps drop into the teens or lower.

My reasoning for running 245/40/18 Nokian Hakka Rsi's then Hakka R's (newer model) when the Rsi's wore out:
In SW MI, winters can fluctuate between lows in the teens - 30's and potentially hit periods where night time temps can be below zero for stretches (I drive at night just about daily) with daytime temps never getting above freezing. We get lake effect snow here and we've had years where the roads were dry and clear 90% of the time through the winter (rare) and we've had winters where even with snowplows going at it, the roads were still white for up to a month or 2 with no breaks (where the snow had a chance to melt off). Every winter, there's usually at least one period (usually 2-3) where we'll get enough snow that the roads are completely covered with packed snow for at least a week.

My goal with dual sets of winter and summer tires was to get the absolute best for each. Knowing that I wouldn't be driving too crazily in the winter, I focused on the absolute best winter performance possible as I didn't want to compromise on the traction when I was encountering the worst possible weather (and the VR4 has made it through 8+ inches of unplowed snow with these tires). I also chose to stick with the stock width tires as a compromise to better dry road performance (since snow tires tend to be squirelly on dry roads, especially when they still have a lot of rubber left). Wider snow tires also don't really reduce snow traction when in deeper snow.

Going narrower for winter helps in a narrow set of circumstances:
When there is ~1" to maybe up to 2" of snow on the roads, the narrower tires help cut down to reach the asphalt to provide better traction. When the snow gets much deeper than that (over ~2.5") the tires are not going to reach the road though. They will compress the snow under them and they're rolling on packed snow. It makes little difference and in fact the wider dispersed siped surface of wider dedicated winter/snow tires can actually have an advantage. If the 1" of snow is sitting on packed snow or ice, then the narrower tires also have little to no traction advantage and in fact, can potentially have lower traction because snow tends to stick better to itself so having a wider tire with more sipes to grab the snow that is sticking to the packed snow base can potentially produce more traction than the tire getting down to the packed snow.

Narrower tires can have an advantage in reduced rolling resistance through deeper snow, and on ice, their smaller surface area can produce slightly better traction due to greater pressures over a smaller tire area. The greatest advantage to narrower tires in winter conditions though is something few of us will ever see and it's with studded winter tires in snow and ice. The narrower tires allow the tire to cut through the snow enough for the studs to dig into the packed snow/ice or road at the bottom, producing far more traction than a non-studded tire that is rolling on it. In rallying, the narrower tires digging into the snow can also reduce sideways drifting because the car has less of a tendency for the tires to slide on top of the snow as the tires dig in and build a berm/snowbank against the outside of the tire/wheel. It can also help with countersteering a drifting rally car when it digs in and makes channels in the snow. Like I said, conditions few of us will EVER encounter especially in these cars and especially since the kinds of tires these attributes work best for are like these:
http://www.keskipinta.fi/pages/WINTER_RALLY_TYRES/1019
http://www.nestealajarvi.com/rts_talvirallirenkaat.htm


Max

[DocWalt]

Ok, thanks for the info! Much appreciated! I think the Dunlop 3D's are what I need then. I already have the fantastic OEM summer tires, so I don't need to worry about moderate temperatures much. I still won't venture out in 8 inches of snow unless I feel the need for hoonage :p

Nice studded tires, and they're even legal in PA! Too bad they'd be a massive waste of money, we don't ever see conditions that warrant their use, and even if we got a freak storm, I'd have no reason to go out anyway, haha.

[GordonRamsey]

[QUOTE=bluemax_1;36768]Winter is winter, but I'm sure we can all agree that winter in Texas is a little different than winter in Colorado or Alaska. Tire compounds are made for a certain heat range (because unfortunately, no one compound has optimal traction from below zero to 100+f temps. The cutoff point is more or less how often you see below freezing temps. All-seasons are OK if you're driving in above freezing temps most of the time and occasionally see temps below freezing. Once the mercury goes into the teens and lower, even most all-season tires start giving up some traction even on dry roads (because the compound needs to NOT get too soft when the temps are in the 80's and 90's or higher since the a/s will usually be driven year round).


I'm with DocWalt on the weather situation. I think DWS would be the best choice. i'm also excited to see how they perform in the weather.