you married guys might like this...

[Echo419]

and I'm sure any divorced fellas would.

so the GF has been bugging me for a little over a year about getting married. of course I'm against it. don't see the point in risking everything I have just to have a BFF contract with the state and her. All risk 0 gain. anyways....

so she was going on about it again. So I stopped her, got a pen and a pad and I told her, "Write down ALL of the reasons that you want to get married. Take as long as you like. Minutes, hours, it doesn't matter.". so she writes her list and we go over it. she's got things on there like, acceptance of the relationship by her family, public commitment, religion etc. so she got finished and I looked at her and said,

"Wow. that's quite the list and I understand why you'd want to do that if all of those things were important to you. it's a very telling list too. but you know what I noticed?". sensing a trap she said, "oh really how?". So I told her, "well I can't help but notice that I am not on the list(she studders and backpedals). Seems to me that I'm not an important factor here and that anyone else will fit the role just fine. etc".

so there was some back and forth but basically she had no comeback. it was a pretty glorious moment really. I felt like I was in a Mission Impossible movie or something with that gotcha plot twist at the end. :D

sry, had to share.

[j2k4]

No one likes a smart-ass, Bobby.

Well done.

[Echo419]

No one likes a smart-ass, Bobby.

Well done.

it's like my dad always said, "It's better to be a smart ass than a dumb one.". this was of course until I was being a smart ass to him. :lol:

[j2k4]

I've met a very few totally honest women in my life.

Even the very best women have a few blind-spots, however.

[Echo419]

I think it's a product of evolution. being the physically weaker sex they've had to develop other ways to get what they want/need. so naturally they've become the more "crafty" of the 2.

[j2k4]

Just so.

[BaadVR4]

"of course I'm against it. don't see the point in risking everything I have just to have a BFF contract with the state and her. All risk 0 gain. anyways...."

Your rationale to not even consider marriage is that, in her list of reasons to marry, none of them are YOU. Don't see consideration of HER in any of your stated counter arguments............Seems to me you want HER to risk everything so you don't have to risk anything. You demand all the advantages of the "BFF contract" but none of the obligations or risks.

"Seems to me that I'm not an important factor here and that anyone else will fit the role just fine. etc". Surely this statement applies in reverse? SHE'S not an essential player in the deal and anyone else will fill her role just fine. etc.?????????????

Maybe the problem is reducing the nature of the relationship from a partnership to a long term trade of goods/services, presumably to be continued only as long as you perceive yourself to have an advantage.

Just sayin'...........................

[BaadVR4]

Maybe that is how she (and a few others in the world) might see the situation.............

[j2k4]

Oh, it goes both ways, without a doubt, Milt.

Bobby is a confirmed bachelor - whether that's a failure or not, the girl took the trouble to enumerate her thoughts as re marriage, and she boned it by leaving out a critical aspect.

I must hasten to add, this doesn't serve to pronounce on her either way - she was merely victimized by one (or more) of the aforementioned "blind-spots". :)

God made Women, and I love 'em all...except one, and she knows who she is, the bitch.

Best to the lovely and gracious Sheri, btw.

[stealthee]

Why should he have to consider her in his counterargument? He's the one not for marriage. He's stated why he believes marriage offers no advantage. It waa hee job to show him why marriage would benefit him/them and she only considered herself.

I too am anti-marriage. I was already against it then seeing how my parents marriage fell apart after 28 years made me even more against it. Hell I'm basically anti-relationship. Why should I alter my life to make a woman happy? Every one of my relationships hit the skids at 5 weeks and was over at 6 weeks because it seems that's around the time woman start showing their true colors.

[j2k4]

Been there, too, Brian. ;)

[stealthee]

https://i.imgur.com/KTJdVoo.jpg

[Echo419]

Why should he have to consider her in his counterargument? He's the one not for marriage. He's stated why he believes marriage offers no advantage. It waa hee job to show him why marriage would benefit him/them and she only considered herself.

I too am anti-marriage. I was already against it then seeing how my parents marriage fell apart after 28 years made me even more against it. Hell I'm basically anti-relationship. Why should I alter my life to make a woman happy? Every one of my relationships hit the skids at 5 weeks and was over at 6 weeks because it seems that's around the time woman start showing their true colors.

without breaking down all of Milt's point I think this basically covers it. I didn't make a list and she didn't ask me to. but to be fair in our discussion I did tell her that I can't totally trust her because she's another person who's heart and mind I couldn't possibly what's really going on underneath. had I been asked to make a list I would have included her in some way or another.

I wouldn't say I'm reducing it to a good/services issue. I would break it down to a risk v. reward issue and the fact is it's 100% risk everything and zero reward(for me at least). she would get a legal contract, approval from certain people, me on the hook to be as close to perfect as possible and me living at the expense of her emotions. all I get is a girl that can let herself become a fat and insufferable bitch. in terms of lawyers she would be able to bury me and I wouldn't stand a chance.

folks have tried to sell me on this deal in the past and I have yet to be presented with a convincing case.

[j2k4]

I can really only speak from personal experience, and mine tells me I'd be dead if I wasn't married, instead of occasionally wishing I was.

[BaadVR4]

without breaking down all of Milt's point I think this basically covers it. I didn't make a list and she didn't ask me to. but to be fair in our discussion I did tell her that I can't totally trust her because she's another person who's heart and mind I couldn't possibly what's really going on underneath. had I been asked to make a list I would have included her in some way or another.

I wouldn't say I'm reducing it to a good/services issue. I would break it down to a risk v. reward issue and the fact is it's 100% risk everything and zero reward(for me at least). she would get a legal contract, approval from certain people, me on the hook to be as close to perfect as possible and me living at the expense of her emotions. all I get is a girl that can let herself become a fat and insufferable bitch. in terms of lawyers she would be able to bury me and I wouldn't stand a chance.

folks have tried to sell me on this deal in the past and I have yet to be presented with a convincing case.

My intention was not to advocate for one side or the other. My intention was to contrast your analysis of the essential nature of the relationship as a personal "risk/reward" system and NOTHING else with the VERY different nature of a marriage. Marriage is a partnership in which both parties forego some of their own wants/needs/goals/etc in order to achieve shared wants/needs/goals/etc. Part and parcel of ANY partnership is some level of personal trust.

I can only assume your partner provides you one or more things of value to you. Otherwise, by your own analysis, you would bail. I agree you should not entertain marriage, at least not as long as you view marriage as nothing more than a legal trap working against you.

What I am asking of you is to consider whether a relationship with an essential nature different than your current relationship is possible. If not, how is the current arrangement fair to your girlfriend?

As for "a convincing case" being presented, that is simply not possible from someone else. Only you can decide. All I'm trying to do is suggest is marriage can NEVER fulfill a total "risk/reward" analysis because its essential nature is contrary to such analysis. Marriage is not about personal, individual "risk/reward". Marriage is about personal, unconditional commitment by BOTH partners to a shared set of goals and dreams.

Just sayin'.

[Echo419]

that's the most decent post I've gotten back on this issue that was not of course "on my side" so to speak. some folks in other places just straight up went on the attack.

I think this is a very fair relationship for the both of us as it stands now. we do things for each other, help each other out, enjoy things and we really don't fight about much if ever. in fact I can't think of a time we even yelled at each other. I just don't see the need for a contract. to me it removes a lot of incentive to "keep trying" so to speak. then it becomes how much shit is either party willing to put up with before divorce is considered and we all know those are no fun at all.

[j2k4]

Milt is smart, huh? :D

I would only add this:

If/when, in your life, you've scoped yourself out to an extent that allows you to believe you know where the edges of 'your best self' are, and you come to believe forming a life partnership with a particular female enhances your ability to be your best - or better - then, why, that's what you do.

Or not, y'know?

[BaadVR4]

that's the most decent post I've gotten back on this issue that was not of course "on my side" so to speak. some folks in other places just straight up went on the attack.

I think this is a very fair relationship for the both of us as it stands now. we do things for each other, help each other out, enjoy things and we really don't fight about much if ever. in fact I can't think of a time we even yelled at each other. I just don't see the need for a contract. to me it removes a lot of incentive to "keep trying" so to speak. then it becomes how much shit is either party willing to put up with before divorce is considered and we all know those are no fun at all.

As long as your partner agrees, all is well. Might want to consider her repeated efforts to contractualize things as the first indication she's moving towards a different position. Don't be caught unaware that she has, in fact, notified you, more than once, that she does not, if fact, consider the current relationship parameters acceptable. As with ALL things relationship related, PREPARE.

[j2k4]

^^that^^

[Echo419]

as she should consider herself notified as well. ;)

#Equality. :lol:

[BaadVR4]

as she should consider herself notified as well. ;)

#equality. :lol:

you betcha!!!