Engine severe lifter tick/knock

[Moltinssj2]

Hello guys, I have a 1995 3sgt Dohc base yellow. This problem started when I changed both Valve cover gaskets. I did make sure to have all the bolts back where they belong. I looked up all 3s/Stealth forum and YT vids.l and came to the conclusion that it was a rod knock. So i did some research got the std rod bearing. Then i remove the downpipe,cross member and both trans support brackets to remove the pan. I found no flakes,no shavings.Removed older rod bearings they did have so wear for a 118,622miles engine. But all were in place and journal were shiny with no marks. So i plasguage old and new ones and everything is torque down to and withing spec and clearance. Got a another pick up tube since old one was dented and change it and undented the pan with some wood and rubber mallet. Took me more than a month due to shipping and stuff. Put back everything on and started and bam!... the tick is back at it again!!! I was so frustrated that I took a video,bathed and go to sleep on the middle of the day,Lol.
Any suggestion,tips and personal experience will be apreciated. Sorry for the long story,I have no body that know about these cars in my area.

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[Moltinssj2]

Anyone knows how to upload a Vid on here?

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[Moltinssj2]

https://youtu.be/BdAUiF0avwU

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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

sure sounds like rod knock. pull the valve covers and make sure a rocker didn't get knocked off or you didn't leave a tool in there.

It sounds like rod knock though because any valve train noise is half the engine speed.

[Moltinssj2]

Well,I already did change de bearings. The cams and rockers were in place,nothing was loose.

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[Moltinssj2]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160914/82533753501f875c87969e65210cd3a5.jpg
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http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160914/3b64a6b8b6f5355a73539eb37fdde853.jpg

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[RealMcCoy]

You dropped a plenum lock washer down the intake....

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

You dropped a plenum lock washer down the intake....

makes perfect sense. Didn't occur to me. Every time I pull the plenum I cover the holes and I check all six runners to be sure nothing is in them before putting it back together.

[Moltinssj2]

Damn,im gonna check that with a magnet,since i replaced the plenum m8 1.25 nuts since one of the washer got lost.

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[Moltinssj2]

This problem started when I changed the old valve cover gaskets.I hope it isn't rod knock or bad lifters.

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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Depending on how beat up the washer is I would fish in the spark plug hole first.

[Moltinssj2]

I didn' find anything down the spark holes or intake valve except carbon.Well i did notice that right valve of piston #6 was flooded with gasoline. So i don't know if it is bended or is there a washer of something beneath it. I notice that my #6 spark cable was bad.

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[Moltinssj2]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160915/3a4e4a23da8cd2aaede6e1f130980266.jpg

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[BaadVR4]

And the winner for "which cylinder tried to eat the plenum washer" is.................................drum roll...................................NUMBER SIX!!!!!!!! Seriously, the washer is probably embedded somewhere now. This won't be an easy fix, even if the washer hasn't damaged the piston beyond re-use. Good luck on repairs.

[Moltinssj2]

Dang it,haha, im gonna spin the motor by the crank and see if the valve is up and try with the magnet. Lets hope for the best cuz removing the head mean messing with the timing belt and im not ready for that.

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[Moltinssj2]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160915/e271a03fc774fbcb7a99170385abb9c5.jpg
Metal shavings on upper and lower plenum hole #6. So lifters and rod knock discarded. May it be a washer?. I can't get around it.Magnet ain't picking
nothing.*sigh*

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[RealMcCoy]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160915/e271a03fc774fbcb7a99170385abb9c5.jpg
Metal shavings on upper and lower plenum hole #6. So lifters and rod knock discarded. May it be a washer?. I can't get around it.Magnet ain't picking
nothing.*sigh*

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It's probably embedded in the head surface by now... All that metal flying around is pieces of head and piston.

[Moltinssj2]

Yeah I guess. Well I did use a cloth hanger wire with a hook trying to see if something came lose from the head but it didn't. I don't want to drive it like that since noise is driving me crazy and it increases and gets louder with higher rpm. All piston surfaces are black with carbon and aren't craped or shiny on any spot. Im not sure if it is safe to drive it like that.

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[Turbo Beast]

Its not.

You're due for some wrenching on.

[Moltinssj2]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160916/4e5988d6a80ca35abf4316239dd81699.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160916/ea34131df3c56596decd9d73003c986e.jpg
What now? I already cranked the engine until #6 piston valves are open

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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'd stick a cheap endoscope down the spark plug hole, but in the end you'll probably have to pull the head.

[Moltinssj2]

Well,I guess I'm done for today. Until i make some$$ for an endoscope,upper and lower plenum gasket,throttle and head gasket.And hex for the head bolts. Im gonna look for timing belt removal and installation witch is my biggest fear. Cuz i don't get it even for a SOHC engine. I love this car but damn every single mot*** fu***r who engineered the engine bay.😡😭.Makes me wanna sometimes send the car down a cliff.

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[Turbo Beast]

I think you can borrow one from auto zone.

If it was me, id just go ahead and rip the head off. Timing is no big deal.

[Moltinssj2]

Really? I'll check for the endoscope. Still i do need the hex bits or socket for the head. Is gonna take sometime before i'm back on it. But i'll let you guys know and thanks everybody for your help.

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[DocWalt]

You can also buy a USB endoscope from amazon for ~$30 if you want. You may also be able to buy an extendable magnet and at least see if you can retrieve a washer (or the remains of it) from cylinder 6.

[Moltinssj2]

Sup, I already have the hex 10mm socket. Would be possibe to put zip tie on the cam gears and timing belt and the unbolt the timing gears to remove the head? Or does that doesn't make amy sense.

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[DocWalt]

If you're pulling the head, you may as well redo the timing from scratch and not worry about the belt/gears until you put it back together.

[Moltinssj2]

Is the timing easy? I don't need any special tool?.I have the manual and a couple of YT videos but most of then is with the engine out out the car.I can't and won't even try to remove the engine.

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[RealMcCoy]

Sup, I already have the hex 10mm socket. Would be possibe to put zip tie on the cam gears and timing belt and the unbolt the timing gears to remove the head? Or does that doesn't make amy sense.

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That method only works with if you have a solid tensioner or some method of controlling the tensioner from extending. As you have to pull the lower cover on these cars to pin the tensioner, it's easier just to do it right...

[Turbo Beast]

Don't worry about the timing yet, worry about what you'll find in #6 cylinder.

If you manage to fix it, get a belt and a tensioner. Im sure somebody will loan you the little tensioner tool.

[Moltinssj2]

Don't worry about the timing yet, worry about what you'll find in #6 cylinder.

If you manage to fix it, get a belt and a tensioner. Im sure somebody will loan you the little tensioner tool.
Ok then how do I set the TDC on #1 piston or align the timing marks before removing the belt?

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[box]

Have you got the workshop manual? I'd highly recommend you download it and have a quick nosey through it:
http://www.3sx.com/faq/manuals/

In a nutshell to answer your question - Remove all the timing covers, turn the engine clockwise until the notches on the front of the cam gears line up with the arrows/pointers on the end of the valve cover, the notch on the crank pulley sprocket backing plate should line up with a pointer cast into the oil pump housing.

Once you've got it timed (but before you remove the belt), fit 8x M8 bolts into the front of the heads through the cam gears to "lock" the gears into place and stop them spinning. You'll see what I mean once you're there. I think it's in the manual too.

To make it easier on yourself, put twink (not sure if that's what you lot call it) on the timing marks to make them easier to see and realign once you're ready, you should also mark the belt direction of rotation if you're reusing it.

[Moltinssj2]

Perfect,thanks. The bolts part is what I was missing. Lets see how it goes.

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[RealMcCoy]

Just pull the belt off... The valve springs will spring the cams to a relaxed position, and all the valves will be closed. At that point you can turn the crank anywhere you want without worry. Just don't be turning cams over unless you know where the pistons are. Four teeth back from TDC is 60 degrees, and the point all pistons are as far down the bores as possible. That's your guaranteed no bent valves position if you need to spin cams over.

Once you start going back together with it is really the time to worry about cam timing. While taking it apart it's a non-issue...

[stealthee]

There are marks on the timing gears.

[Moltinssj2]

Just pull the belt off... The valve springs will spring the cams to a relaxed position, and all the valves will be closed. At that point you can turn the crank anywhere you want without worry. Just don't be turning cams over unless you know where the pistons are. Four teeth back from TDC is 60 degrees, and the point all pistons are as far down the bores as possible. That's your guaranteed no bent valves position if you need to spin cams over.

Once you start going back together with it is really the time to worry about cam timing. While taking it apart it's a non-issue...
So, i can just remove the the belt and then i can alight all the marks? But first how do i even remove the belt?do i have to take the lower timing covers? Were do i loose the tension?

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[stealthee]

You need to do some searches and read. There are FSMs available online that detail how to do what you are about to do.

[Moltinssj2]

Yes I have read a lot but im that kind of guy that have to see it to do it. I already did the bearings witch took a lot of time and measurements but this type of work get me nervous.

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[Moltinssj2]

Another day ended with failure. Can someone give me a list of tool or special tools to remove the rear head? There are some forums about these but some say it easy,easy my ass.The rod bearings were easier they only took me a lot of time and precautions. It seems i have to remove the acc belt,another one,remove some cover undo alternator. before i even reach the timing belt.

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[stealthee]

http://www.3sx.com/faq/manuals/Service-Manual-3000GT-1992-1996-Volume-1.pdf
http://www.3sx.com/faq/manuals/Service-Manual-3000GT-1992-1996-Volume-2.pdf

Read them, breathe them, love them.

[Moltinssj2]

Haha, gotta have em. Thanks.Now I need to sit down and read then thoroughly .

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[Moltinssj2]

The more I read them,the more it makes me slap everything back and ride it or sell it like that. Anyways,is there somebody out there with the crankshaft pulley tool that let me borrow it. I cant find it on eBay and they sell something similar for like $58 but I'm short on money.

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[RealMcCoy]

You don't need that tool to take it apart, and with a little care taken on reassembly, you really don't need it going back together either...

[Moltinssj2]

Hey guys,so I read that it is easier to line up the timing marks before removing the old belt. But I can't even make one full spun(revolution)by the crank pulley clockwise or counter clockwise.

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[stealthee]

There is no point in lining up the marks before removing the belt unless you have cam locks, and even then you are removing the head anyway, so no point.

[Moltinssj2]

Ok then, now I did remove the radiator to remove the alternator with the belt along side the left motor mount and a couple lower timing cover bolts. How do I proceed now?.The crank pulley is a bitch to get out.

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[stealthee]

I gave you links to the FSM. Follow it.

As for the crank pulley you can do the starter bump method to get the bolt loose. I have stuck a lady slipper in the rotor vane and let the rotor jam against the brake caliper mount and broke it free that way. I torqued it the same way.

[Moltinssj2]

Good tip about the brake caliper.I though of it but didn't think it would work. I gonna try that tomorrow and with a thick screw driver too.

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[stealthee]

I've personally done it, so yes it works. I used a few extensions to get the breaker bar out past the fender so I could use my legs to break it loose, instead of just using my arms confined in the wheel well.

[Moltinssj2]

So I already remove both belts. The thing that is giving me a problem is the crank pulley. I already have the car on first gear and a screw driver on the rotor vents to stop it from moving and still it keeps spinning.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160927/b8ae8acd48f661d6ab50e2326841c389.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160927/a99c5e8697b9866a6c3bdebb114eba0c.jpg


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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

You have an open front differential, you will have to jam both front rotors.

[Moltinssj2]

I totally forgot about that.Lets try again

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[RealMcCoy]

You also need to select a taller gear.... 1st gives the mechanical advantage to the engine, put it in high gear and the wheels have the advantage.

[Moltinssj2]

God,this car is so frustrating. Now the 1/2 drive won't work because hole got big. Its like the bolt hole was made of thin aluminium or someshit.

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[Moltinssj2]

Can I use a socket for the crank bolt? If so what size it is?.The 13/16 is too small

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[RealMcCoy]

God,this car is so frustrating. Now the 1/2 drive won't work because hole got big. Its like the bolt hole was made of thin aluminium or someshit.

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Only frustrating because you haven't been there before... Most of us could have told you that was going to happen.


Can I use a socket for the crank bolt? If so what size it is?.The 13/16 is too small

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It's a metric bolt... The closest standard size (which is really close and I use often) is a 7/8"

[Moltinssj2]

Thanks RealMcCoy. Welp another trip to Harbor Freight. Either 7/8 or 22mm,right?

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[Moltinssj2]

Well guys I manage to undo the crank bolt.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/01c0d2dbecf2060a85b5ff5761b59d5f.jpg
Now the damn cover is still stuck.Do I have to undo this tensioner?
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http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/3b8814fc2145024bdf5fe8979fe29a4e.jpg

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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

yes, remove the power steering tensioner and the idler pulley for the other belt.

[Moltinssj2]

Ok,I manage to take it out. Now I cleaned out the gunk/grease and insects from the timing components. Now I notice that the belts and timing tensioners are original witch let me to believe that this car has never had a 60k service and is now 118k.Would be a goddamn perfect time to do that if I only had money😭. Any tips before removing or loosening the timing belt?


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[Moltinssj2]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/efec2c052412ada74a9eef1f4c39cdd7.jpg.
Do I need to align these marks before removing the belt?(4 cam gears and crank sprocket) The manual doesn't say it.Some people do it,some don't. I'm stuck on what to do.

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[DocWalt]

It's much easier to line everything up before you take it apart so you have less hassle when you put it back together.

[Moltinssj2]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/d3c3b0ca4135f0668f9fdbd95b889e62.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/8f5f574b847157997d59cdc3c294c43f.jpg
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http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/a8f72d70c4c0e1af382edd6bd7591a7a.jpg
am I set? sorry if I ask so many questions,the thing is I'm nervous and don't want to screw this up. I got the rear plenum 4 bolts to use on the cams. Do i need to lock them all? And is this how you lock them up?

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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

The rears don't spin. The fronts I usually do not lock as it makes putting the belt on harder IMO. Just let them flop where they want to (keep your figures out of the way, they snap hard).

Just don't rotate the cams more than need to re-time. Like do not go a full revolution to get back around, backup in 90 degrees. The front flops forward IIRC. I usually use two crossed wrenches when re-timing to hold them and then thread the belt over them, them use binder clips to hold the belt to the cams. Once you get two together it won't rotate anymore.

[Moltinssj2]

OK nice. Now I'm about to remove the tension but i don't see the pin on the hydraulic tensioner. I read the manual instruction and some forum about resetting it but I can't see to understand. Can I leave it like that and just undo the tension pulleys and remove the belt? http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/16a856db2f75b3026369e26d84d0b71b.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/99c312c6349f16b20a5d3fff6569afb6.jpg

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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

OK nice. Now I'm about to remove the tension but i don't see the pin on the hydraulic tensioner. I read the manual instruction and some forum about resetting it but I can't see to understand. Can I leave it like that and just undo the tension pulleys and remove the belt? http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/16a856db2f75b3026369e26d84d0b71b.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160928/99c312c6349f16b20a5d3fff6569afb6.jpg

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The pin comes with new tensioners. you can use a small allen key it its place. See the little hole on the front of the tensioner? You put a pin in there and that keeps the plunger inside from extending.

On a belt that has been in service for a while it may be hard to insert the pin. I like to put some tensioner against those little eye holes using a tensioner tool, then loosen the bolt under them. Now you can wiggle the tension in and out until you can insert the pin in the tensioner body.

The other option is to reset the tensioner in a vice after the plunger has been extended, but there is some debate that this is hard on them.

[Turbo Beast]

If you think thats the OG tensioner, belt and idler. You should replace them.

It would suck to get everything else fixed, slap the old shit back on and breaking the belt or skipping teeth.

[Moltinssj2]

Guys,I just removed the timing belt, then proceeded to undo the rear manifold bolt and when I started removing the head bolts. Head bolt #3 f**king snap. BAMM!! *sigh* any ideas on how to remove it? The other 7 are just fine.

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[Turbo Beast]

It broke? Is the head off?

[Moltinssj2]

I mean it didn't broke but the allen socket won't work.Like what happened with the crank pulley bolt earlier.I don't know the correct work used to call that.

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[stealthee]

It stripped You didn't have it in square.

You could try using a hammer and tapping the socket "hard" then trying again.

[Moltinssj2]

That's the word. Ok I'll try that tomorrow. I hope the head come out easy.

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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

It stripped You didn't have it in square.

You could try using a hammer and tapping the socket "hard" then trying again.

yes, you need to hit the socket to get it to go into the allen bolt and drive out the oil or they will round easily.

If that doesn't work for the one you rounded you may have to get a torx bit of similar size and beat it in.

[RealMcCoy]

Start by digging all the sludge out of the cavity first... If it only goes in halfway it'll strip every time.

[box]

If you don't have any luck and the internal hex is properly rooted, you can (often) hit a 17mm 12 point socket over the outside of the bolt, it will grab enough to loosen the bolt. As above, the key is making absolutely sure that the socket (or 10mm hex) is right down on the bolt.

[Turbo Beast]

Make sure you have the right hex insert.

[Moltinssj2]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160929/dbd764de83b55e09b8fd958789b35fd9.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160929/a8cfe89799de4608faa9e7116fe28bf1.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160929/c2bbcf89e11ef3547376de9072832213.jpg
Im running out of options.Socket tip won't work and putting the hex down and hammering like a mad man didn't work. The hex bit is intact no damage whatsoever. I almost got along with it and start hammering everywhere.

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[Moltinssj2]

Do bigger hex work?My small set only goes up to 10mm or do drill bits do the work? and if witch type/size?

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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Ok, I went in the garage with a spare head bolt.

A T55 torx bit just strips out. A T60 will not fit at all. A 3/8" hex bit is much looser than the 10MM.

I don't know if it will work, but if I were you I would get a really good 10mm socket, like snap on or similar. If that still spins you may have to take a T60 torx and grind it down enough to where you can drive it in.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

looks like lisle makes a kit for this:

https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-62110-4-Piece-Stripped-Extractor/dp/B0093N68TW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1475209719&sr=8-1&keywords=lisle+62110

[Moltinssj2]

I didn't know they made those. Thanks lets see what I can do now

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[BaadVR4]

When all else fails, get a GOOD drill bit just slightly larger than the head bolt diameter and drill off the top of the head bolt-the part that has the allen head counterbore. When you get the top of the bolt drilled off, the head will lift off and you will probably be able to remove the remaining threaded portion of the head bolt by hand, since there will be no torque on it. At this point, you may find drilling off the top of the head bolt faster, cheaper and easier than continuing attempts to get it out "in one piece". You won't be using the bolt again anyway, right? Just my 1.5 cents worth. And I've done it before. Worked well.

[RealMcCoy]

A good quality T60, a cheep sacrificial extension to use as a driver, and a BFH....

[Moltinssj2]

When all else fails, get a GOOD drill bit just slightly larger than the head bolt diameter and drill off the top of the head bolt-the part that has the allen head counterbore. When you get the top of the bolt drilled off, the head will lift off and you will probably be able to remove the remaining threaded portion of the head bolt by hand, since there will be no torque on it. At this point, you may find drilling off the top of the head bolt faster, cheaper and easier than continuing attempts to get it out "in one piece". You won't be using the bolt again anyway, right? Just my 1.5 cents worth. And I've done it before. Worked well.
What type of drill bit? The high speed,colt and titanium doesn't do shit. The head bolt is still stuck there laughing at my failed attempts.


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[Moltinssj2]

If there is a good bolt extractor kit can someone link me. There ara a couple of those in the internet but I don't know the bolt dimension,wide etc..

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