View Full Version : Brakes Upgrade overkill?
Nationalmilkman
10-13-2010, 10:23 PM
Looking to upgrade my Gen1 N/A brakes. Will going to Gen2 TT brakes be to much for my car? And what are the cost/performance drawbacks and gains from Gen2 TT brakes over Gen1 TT brakes? I know the parts that will need to be swapped but are Gen2 brakes an upgrade or an overkill?
stealthee
10-13-2010, 10:42 PM
In my opinion, NA brakes are very sufficient on a NA powered 3s. TT brakes will make you SLOWER due to a massive increase in rotating mass.
Nationalmilkman
10-13-2010, 10:54 PM
So no turbo, no upgrade? I'm running drilled/slotted rotors now but thought it could help.
stealthee
10-13-2010, 11:00 PM
I run Brembo blanks and have run my car HARD on some mountain runs and have not gotten brake fade yet.
Nationalmilkman
10-13-2010, 11:04 PM
WeLl I might just have to put that planned money elsewhere. But where? Motor? Trans? Springs? Stripper's G-string?
stealthee
10-13-2010, 11:17 PM
It all depends on you and your intentions. If the car is NA, I would just do some simple suspension upgrades, whether its coilovers or springs, better wheels if you don't already have them and be happy with having a nice looking car.
If I could do it all over again I would have kept my car simpler and just enjoyed a nice daily driver
Nationalmilkman
10-13-2010, 11:27 PM
Car goes to paint in the spring, coilovers, and 18" wheels(maybe). It's my year round DD and it's fun but can't get any work done on it for that reason too
B-Man
10-14-2010, 02:23 PM
I've noticed any braking with 1g TT brakes above 100mph+ sucks. The brakes go soft almost immediately. Could just be my Hawks though.
i3igpete
10-14-2010, 03:52 PM
it's your hawk HPS pads absorbing road salt during the winters. dave said switching to autozone duralast was an upgrade for him.
DocWalt
10-14-2010, 05:17 PM
it's your hawk HPS pads absorbing road salt during the winters. dave said switching to autozone duralast was an upgrade for him.
I'd believe it. My HPS pads sucked donkey dick. I'll never buy them for anything ever again, completely junk.
as soon as i went to 275 tires, my n/a brakes weren't up to the task. even when it was raining, i couldn't get a skid out of them. just saying.
B-Man
10-15-2010, 10:00 AM
as soon as i went to 275 tires, my n/a brakes weren't up to the task. even when it was raining, i couldn't get a skid out of them. just saying.
That's usually a good thing.
B-Man
10-15-2010, 10:01 AM
it's your hawk HPS pads absorbing road salt during the winters. dave said switching to autozone duralast was an upgrade for him.
Those hawks never saw a winter. They were put on a month or two before NG.
That's usually a good thing.
no, it's not. if you can't reach a point in the braking system where you can lock up all four wheels--then you are leaving some braking capability on the table. everything beyond that point is about the system's ability to handle repeated abuse.
GordonRamsey
10-15-2010, 09:27 PM
I've noticed any braking with 1g TT brakes above 100mph+ sucks. The brakes go soft almost immediately. Could just be my Hawks though.
Mine do the same. Except I have just oem replacements. I dont think they are meant for racing.
GordonRamsey
10-15-2010, 09:32 PM
What about Axxis pads? Do they fad after while?
And EBC ---stuff pads?
B-Man
10-16-2010, 04:24 PM
no, it's not. if you can't reach a point in the braking system where you can lock up all four wheels--then you are leaving some braking capability on the table. everything beyond that point is about the system's ability to handle repeated abuse.
You didn't change your brakes, so you have the same braking capabilities as before you changed your tires, but not you're able to use all the braking because sliding doesn't slow you down as fast as gripping.
You didn't change your brakes, so you have the same braking capabilities as before you changed your tires, but not you're able to use all the braking because sliding doesn't slow you down as fast as gripping.
i was able to use "maximum braking" before, as the 225 tires did not outgrip the clamping force of the n/a brakes.
when i upgraded to 275's, the n/a brakes no longer had sufficient clamping force to outgrip the tires; meaning that stopping distances could have been shortened, had more powerful brakes been utilized.
/story.
R/T93
10-16-2010, 10:49 PM
I could lock up my 275 hoosiers with my N/A brakes and Napa pads :/
TT brakes just lock them up easier!
92EuroDiamante
10-16-2010, 11:35 PM
as soon as i went to 275 tires, my n/a brakes weren't up to the task. even when it was raining, i couldn't get a skid out of them. just saying.
Exactly. So many of us are using larger wheels and tires. I still think that the best thing I have ever done to any of these cars is TT calipers and TT drilled and slotted rotors. Going fast is great but so is knowing that you can out-stop just about any idiot that slams his brakes in front of you (maybe this is just because I live and commute in Chicago with awful traffic and some of the worst motorist rights ever)
Nationalmilkman
10-17-2010, 12:12 AM
Thank you! I'm looking to use some bigger wheels and tires as in the 265 range and knowing that my N/A brakes are goingcto be less than what I need to stop is important. If your brakes can't overcome the tires(as was said earlier) then all your doing is making your brakes useless. Yes a skid it not slowing you down but if your brakes can't slow the wheels then you aren't slowing down either.
92EuroDiamante
10-17-2010, 12:42 AM
Thank you! I'm looking to use some bigger wheels and tires as in the 265 range and knowing that my N/A brakes are goingcto be less than what I need to stop is important. If your brakes can't overcome the tires(as was said earlier) then all your doing is making your brakes useless. Yes a skid it not slowing you down but if your brakes can't slow the wheels then you aren't slowing down either.
Exactly. Best to do it now and not sweat it later.
Recently my girlfriends father went to get new brake components and told the clerk "whatever's cheapest"
well I now have this sitting in my driveway. Apparently whatever he got couldnt perform to the standards he was used to (OEM honda parts) and he lost it.
Never let people know you can fix cars because you will never have time to work on your own and dont cheap out on brakes!
http://i51.tinypic.com/ifr7o7.jpg
Nationalmilkman
10-17-2010, 12:50 AM
Holy Crap! Someone put a...Hon...Hond... I can't even say the word!! Someone put THAT CAR on a 3s forum!?! Lol Hope he is ok and never cheap out on thing that keeps you and a large, solid object from meeting in a bad way.
92EuroDiamante
10-17-2010, 12:53 AM
Psh, i push limits like that :p
Actually not a bad car, other than the fact that it has a glass ATX. like seriously guys it makes our look like superman!
Nationalmilkman
10-17-2010, 12:59 AM
So what would the TT upgrade cost me?
92EuroDiamante
10-17-2010, 01:04 AM
I believe it cost me in the 5 to 6 hundred dollar range but I bought new rotors and rebuilt calipers and had alot of the misc parts lying around.
If you used used parts it could be less.
Nationalmilkman
10-17-2010, 01:12 AM
That's not bad. I'd use new pads and rotors for sure.
Psh, i push limits like that :p
Actually not a bad car, other than the fact that it has a glass ATX. like seriously guys it makes our look like superman!
the 3/s atx is already practically superman. negative feedback comes from undisclosed previous-owner abuse, faulty rebuilds, and idiots who try and treat it like an mtx. build one fresh; cool it properly; don't do something stupid to it (ala neutral drops) and it will preform an exemplary job.
I believe it cost me in the 5 to 6 hundred dollar range but I bought new rotors and rebuilt calipers and had alot of the misc parts lying around.
If you used used parts it could be less.
depends on what you can swing the parts for. if you can find someone selling the hubs, knuckles, rotors, calipers, etc as a package...you might be able to get it for a bit less. of course, spending more money on the project for new hubs, caliper rebuild kits, new brake lines, etc, is probably a good idea.
p.s.
anyone got a clue how to get the 10mm nuts loose on the rear lines? i managed to get my fronts swapped out to new connectors & ss lines; but the ss lines for my rears are sitting unused in the cargo trays because i can't get the damn things loose. i'd end up stripping the nut. and that's AFTER trying to use flare wrenches.
p.p.s.
anyone else use a zip tie to hold the front brake lines onto their coilovers? just curious...
Nationalmilkman
10-17-2010, 03:20 PM
Use a torch to warm them up. Did it all the time at the shop. Works great and I can get anybolt out with the right amount of heat in the right place.
92EuroDiamante
10-17-2010, 04:05 PM
depends on what you can swing the parts for. if you can find someone selling the hubs, knuckles, rotors, calipers, etc as a package...you might be able to get it for a bit less. of course, spending more money on the project for new hubs, caliper rebuild kits, new brake lines, etc, is probably a good idea.
p.s.
anyone got a clue how to get the 10mm nuts loose on the rear lines? i managed to get my fronts swapped out to new connectors & ss lines; but the ss lines for my rears are sitting unused in the cargo trays because i can't get the damn things loose. i'd end up stripping the nut. and that's AFTER trying to use flare wrenches.
p.p.s.
anyone else use a zip tie to hold the front brake lines onto their coilovers? just curious...
Yeah, it really varies. Could be much more.
Yes I use a zip ties for that in several cars. It seems like alot of aftermarket parts dont have the holders or if you swap parts from model to model they might fit but some lack them too. You can get colored ones online to blend in.
Use a torch to warm them up. Did it all the time at the shop. Works great and I can get anybolt out with the right amount of heat in the right place.
which i would have tried...if i could get it off the car. i'm not about to apply a blowtorch to something with brake fluid in it. i may be dumb, but i ain't stupid.
Yeah, it really varies. Could be much more.
Yes I use a zip ties for that in several cars. It seems like alot of aftermarket parts dont have the holders or if you swap parts from model to model they might fit but some lack them too. You can get colored ones online to blend in.
i used some black ones. they're wrapped around the black threaded tube. i hope it will be fine. too bad i installed the connecting tube backwards on the passenger side; but it should be fine...i hope.
Nationalmilkman
10-17-2010, 08:46 PM
As long as you don't clamp the line off it won't matter and your not trying to melt the line off. Just warm it up to break the rust and then your good to go. Someone back me up on this? Now you would never do it on a fuel line but brake lines are no big deal.
B-Man
10-17-2010, 10:40 PM
i was able to use "maximum braking" before, as the 225 tires did not outgrip the clamping force of the n/a brakes.
when i upgraded to 275's, the n/a brakes no longer had sufficient clamping force to outgrip the tires; meaning that stopping distances could have been shortened, had more powerful brakes been utilized.
/story.
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense.
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense.
then perhaps you'd better study braking physics 101. if you cannot "lock up" your wheels, then you cannot certify that your brakes are giving you maximum stopping performance. it's just that simple. threshold braking is where maximum stoppage occurs; it is the range immediately preceding lockup. if you cannot achieve lockup with your brakes, you cannot know with certainty where the threshold is.
i'm not really sure how i can "break" it down any simpler for you.
B-Man
10-18-2010, 06:25 PM
Yeah, I think that's pointless. If you "can't know" that you're achieving maximum braking, then you're not maintaining your brakes. I'd rather have enough grip that I can't lock up my brakes, then be locking up my brakes all the time.
stealthee
10-18-2010, 06:30 PM
The brakes stop the tires, the tires stop the car. If upping the tire width made you lose braking grip then the tires are the problem, not the brakes.
Yeah, I think that's pointless. If you "can't know" that you're achieving maximum braking, then you're not maintaining your brakes. I'd rather have enough grip that I can't lock up my brakes, then be locking up my brakes all the time.
you are missing it entirely.
The brakes stop the tires, the tires stop the car. If upping the tire width made you lose braking grip then the tires are the problem, not the brakes.
i agree; but that's not the issue i'm dealing with. on ANY car, it is proper (safe/normal/advisable/etc) to have the brakes "outgrip" the tires. ABS was invented so that novice drivers could deal with this condition. it's a normal condition. it's a safe condition. it means that the tire grip is the limiting factor, not clamping force.
by increasing the contact patch on my car, i found that tire grip was now > clamping force--meaning that i could no longer "lock-up" the brakes. so while it is theoretically possible to stop the car in the same amount of distance as before, it is also probable that the car could be stopped in a shorter distance, should more clamping force be available.
and that's all i'm getting at. if you keep 225 tires, then n/a brakes will have adequate clamping force to outgun your tire grip. if you increase the contact patch significantly, you can and will benefit from having greater clamping force---but only up until the point at which you can "lock up" the tires. that "point" is different for different vehicles, and primarily varies with size of pads, size and number of caliper pistons, vehicle weight, and tire contact patch.
B-Man
10-18-2010, 07:03 PM
So your concern is not utilizing all the grip you have by not having big enough brakes. That's fine, but my preference is the other way.
So your concern is not utilizing all the grip you have by not having big enough brakes. That's fine, but my preference is the other way.
it's understandable that you wouldn't want to worry about locking up the brakes. but if you set your car up so that it is impossible to do so...how do you know for certain that the maximum extent of pedal that you are equipped with is, in fact, the threshold?
B-Man
10-18-2010, 07:22 PM
Well, you can feel your face rip off for one.
Well, you can feel your face rip off for one.
let me guess...
you're also one of those people who swears he's making "xxx horsepower" because his butt dyno says so...even though he's never put it on a real one?
B-Man
10-18-2010, 10:26 PM
Nope, I openly admit I have no idea how much power I'm running.
R/T93
10-19-2010, 12:34 AM
You guys are funny.
Stoptech = win
/thread
GordonRamsey
10-19-2010, 10:41 AM
definitely.
Hans@GZP
10-20-2010, 05:46 AM
For most non-turbos the only thing you need is good pads, stainless lines, and a good quality brake fluid. I run 1st gen TT brakes on my n/a, but I also pull a trailer with it. Let me tell you... it will lock up the brakes even with that trailer behind the car :)
wraith
11-14-2010, 05:35 PM
Stock brakes work great as long as you have titanium backing plates, better pads, better fluid and its completely bled with stainless lines. I have this combo on stock rotors and it works fantastically. I had big brakes on the car in the past and I did not like the pedal feel. I like the short travel and insta grab of the stock setup, but it fades too easy so higher mass rotors and thicker pads are where the big brake setups excel. Repeatability etc. For mostly street use though, on a lower hp car, the stockers are fine. I have nice big wheels on my car just begging for the larger rotor and caliper of a big brake setup and so just for aesthetics I am looking for a Stoptech or Brembo/Ap kit 14"
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