help: 93 vr4 running rough suddenly (datalogs incl.)

[stealthtuner]

1993 3000gt vr4, 117k, new jdm engine and tranny. chrome ecu.

Bought this car a 5 months ago. Has been driving fine for a couple months. Really it would have been driving fine for 5 months for the most part but the hoses came off and the gas tank went dry (gauge doesnt work at all).

Drove fine for 2 months. Drove fine friday night. Saturday morning started the car up and it immediately ran rough. It runs like a misfire, or a large boost leak. Checked for leaks with a friend who is building his own vr4. He knows these cars fairly well and neither of us found anything significant. The car sounds like a v8 with straight pipes sort of (ie: low octave), and the pulsing of the engine or exhaust sounds about half speed. When you press on the gas it is sluggish and will rev up but really doesnt want to. Also if you rev it to 2k it will knock. The knock (which it never had before) can get pretty bad at times. Its not valve knock or whatever its engine knock. But you could feel it a couple times.

We checked for boost leaks, checked the plugs that go on the spark plugs, pulled the plugs etc. One of them (cylinder 5) was pretty thick with carbon from running rich/lean.

I did some datalogs to see if someone cant give me an idea of where to look what to try etc. I dont really have the time or budget to try 'everything' it could be and just keep shooting in the dark. But I would appreciate any help to point me in the right direction.

If anyone has had similar issues chime in.

Car has aftermarket fuel mods btw. FPR makes a clicking noise, and the fuel car smells a little fumey towards the lower rear of the engine bay. Not to lead any to jump to a fueling conclusion but just stating what ive noticed.

Datalogs from today:

usp=sharing"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WaaDVKuookSkxSRkx1U2JtNFE/edit?usp=sharing[/URL]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WaaDVKuookOXV0b081bnRWT3M/edit?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WaaDVKuookVnBvWk9WS3c3ZUk/edit?usp=sharing


These are from the other day. More variables were selected. Friend wasnt here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WaaDVKuookX2Y4VzFaSTRjb3M/edit?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WaaDVKuookNko2dmJFVTNfaE0/edit?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WaaDVKuookY1RLM2gyZFdkRWc/edit?usp=sharing


thanks for any input. Please help.

Nate


more about the car below




1993 3000GT VR4 ~117,000 miles on the body
2nd Gen JDM Engine (unknown miles) very clean runs strong
JDM 6sp trans aka "MR gearing" shifts great
Just did FULL 120K service with all OEM parts including T-Belt, Oil pump, Water pump, all new fluids


1993 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4: JDM Engine & 6sp. Trans - SS TD04 Manifolds & O2 Housings - JIC Twin Spartan Cat-back - CX Racing 3" shorty DP - Maximal Performance 3" High Flow Cat - XTD Stage 3 Clutch & Flywheel - Clone ECU 2 - EVO 560cc Injectors - DeatschWerks DW300 320 LPH (Hotwired) - IPS Fuel Hat - STM -6AN Fuel feed line kit - Custom -6AN Return line - Fuel Lab FPR & Fuel filter - oohnoo Fuel loop - CX-Racing Front Mount Oil Cooler - 3SX Single Pass Aluminum Radiator - Mishimoto Slim Fan shroud - CX Racing SMIC Hard Pipe Kit - Greddy RZ BOV - AEM Wideband - Prosport Premium Series 52mm gauges: Boost, Oil pres. & Water temp. - STM ABS Delete - Vac reduction

[stealthtuner]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8reTVNGV-KU/VESY4vC49cI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/caG3OhDh_m4/w680-h510-no/20141018_152337.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WRf6s2B6vPE/VESY6mY9iJI/AAAAAAAAAGg/xNQUnDVnMu8/w680-h510-no/20141018_152356.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MBnGXT2nkXQ/VESY54x5_yI/AAAAAAAAAGY/Tm0CYtgKhq4/w383-h510-no/20141018_152446.jpg

[stealthtuner]

[QUOTE=stealthtuner83;8271530]Took it to a tuning shop because of the issues. They found nothing wrong with the injectors, fuel system, ignition or anything else. But that the car is running REALLY rich. 10.5 afr when attempting to drive.

They thought the car lost its tune somehow (dead battery, alarm key lost: limp mode possible, etc). Well I flashed the car with the tune and it didnt work. Unless something is really wrong with the tune.

I dont know how to share the map on here.




I successfully flashed the car with a base map adjusted for evo 560 scaling and latency.

bad news is this. It did not fix the car.

See here for numbers adjusted:

help me get my 93 vr4 setup for evoscan/ecuflash - Page 4 - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f35/help-me-get-my-93-vr4-setup-evoscan-ecuflash-670537/index4.html)



Anyways, car is running rough out of nowhere after running fine for months. Took it to one mechanic, then a tuning shop. injectors are firing, so are spark plugs, plugs were changed, maf was swapped (no change), have a spare coilpack, no boost leaks, car idles and could theoretically drive if I wanted to destroy my engine. knock at higher than 2k revs.

what the heck?

tuning shop thought my car lost its map (dead battery, alarm, limp mode etc) and it just needed a flash again. Didnt work. Unless there is something extremely wrong with the map.

[NOMIEZVR4]

welcome welcome!!

[stealthtuner]

thanks everyone. Ive been on 3si.org for awhile but they sent me here. They said the developers for chrome were on here and that because they don't pay certain dues to 3si they dont allow them to yada yada their product or be a seller. some political nonsense.

[stealthtuner]

sharing my chrome rom

xml: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WaaDVKuookeFpLc1RHeENvbmc/view

bin : https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1WaaDVKuookLW1WQkpGZFhfR3c/view

if either of these dont work let me know how I can fix it.

[mjannusch]

I think you probably want:

Periphery 0:
Turn off bit 14 O2 Heater Functions

Periphery 2:
Turn off bits 15, 14, 13, 11, 10, 9, 3, 1


Does your car have two functioning narrowband sensors installed? If so, when you log both stock O2 voltages, do they react as they should? In EvoScan, these should be "Primary Oxygen Sensor Front" and "Primary Oxygen Sensor Rear". If your car only has a rear narrowband sensor connected, then you also want to disable Periphery 0 bit 2.

There's probably something else wrong than just that, but you want to get everything set up as properly as possible to eliminate variables.

[anyonebutme]

is it just me or does your TDC indicator on the crank pulley seem WAY off? Is that just a nick in the pulley?

[stealthtuner]

its strange. had no issues before. timing belt is new(kevlar). 120k just done with oem parts. timing marks (4 or 8 depending on how you think about it) on the cam gears are perfect. timing mark on the crank pulley is way off. but if that was adjusted timing marks on the cams would be way off. i really dont think this is a timing issue. perhaps the pulley wasnt exact from the beginning. idk.

as far as the o2 sensors I dont know. I know I have an aem wideband that is running its own sensor. can you tell from the datalogs anything about the o2 sensors?

[mjannusch]

Take out the #1 cylinder spark plug, but a long screwdriver down the hole, turn the crank pulley clockwise until the screwdriver is at its highest. Do the cam marks line up? If not, then your crank/cam timing is still off.

Not sure why on earth you would assume that the crank pulley should be off yet somehow be okay. Find out for sure with the above test.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

is it just me or does your TDC indicator on the crank pulley seem WAY off? Is that just a nick in the pulley?

yeah that's like a 99% chance the valves are bent up. It is amazing it runs at all.

Pull the crank pulley off and see the timing cog mark vs the oil pump.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Finally someone is giving this guy some useful advice...

[Jimvr4]

Best case, PO broke off the roll pin and misaligned the crank pulley

[stealthtuner]

so on earth do all the cam gear timing marks line up perfectly?

im not convinced its a timing issue. but ill look into it.

[anyonebutme]

Cam gear timing just tells you how the cams are phased in relation to each other, not the crank, that's why there's a timing mark on the crank and you HAVE to align all 5 when setting timing. The crank gear can jump teeth without the cam gears jumping, it's most common when something drops down there like a stray old timing cover seal. Also, the aftermarket crank dampers don't have the timing mark in the correct position so the only surefire way to check is to pull it off the look at the actual timing mark on the crank cog. If you don't want to remove 2 belts and a bolt (I think you can see the marks with the cover still on), a rod down #1 cylinder will get you close enough to even see if your damper mark is correct or not.

The bottom line is, if that's an OEM pulley that has not begun to separate from old age, and the roll pin is still in tact, your cam timing is off and you're pulling the heads to get new valves.

[CoopKill]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VILQztgxAMw/VE05z6vIvzI/AAAAAAAAUbw/7k7R9OtNoGw/w978-h550-no/timing%2Bmarks.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eGI3Oz1vDS8/VE08-eR0hCI/AAAAAAAAUcE/K-SvXTnXVUo/s800/timing%2520marks%2520crank.jpg

[stealthtuner]

timing was done by the person I bought the car from. he built the car from the ground up and knew what he was doing. I had no issues for months. so if timing is off its not because it was set wrong, its because tooth were skipped by the crank pulley.

I certainly dont think I need to pull heads and replace the valves. The car is running too rich. That is the only thing that is certain. like 10.5 afr when attempting to drive. i dont think timing being off would result in that.

cant you check the timing in the datalogs anyways? Ill attempt the timing check method through the spark plug but i would probably need some help with that to make sure I do it right.


also what are the instructions for a rod down cylinder 1 method? how exactly do I do this?

[stealthtuner]

Best case, PO broke off the roll pin and misaligned the crank pulley

could this possibly explain the misalignment?

Remember the cars timing WAS set correct and it DID drive fine for several months. It started up like this one morning random. And no I wasn't beating on it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

yeah the tensioner relaxed overnight and skipped time.

With the amount of time spent speculating you could easy get the crank pulley off and check or the spark plug screwdriver check at least.

[CoopKill]

Pull front drivers side spark plug, stick long screwdriver in, turn crank with 1/2 inch ratchet till screwdriver is at highest point, check all 5 timing marks.

[stealthtuner]

im definitely going to check the timing. look into it more. But it literally would have to skip a tooth upon start-up because the night before it drove fine and months before that.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

im definitely going to check the timing. look into it more. But it literally would have to skip a tooth upon start-up because the night before it drove fine and months before that.

A loose belt is more likely to skip on startup than any other time. once it has load on it, it tightens up.

[mjannusch]

im definitely going to check the timing. look into it more. But it literally would have to skip a tooth upon start-up because the night before it drove fine and months before that.
Stop making assumptions and start testing things to determine whether they are actually correct or not. Something is wrong. Assuming things are okay obviously is not getting this car fixed.

[NOMIEZVR4]

now you gotta bump threads on both forums..! its a lot of threads...i think you got 4 altogether that you bump at the same time right? :D..

[Greg E]

Compression test would also reveal some secretes.

[stealthtuner]

im not assuming anything. but I am freaking out. If this is the timing belt and it needs replaced I simply dont have the time, money or expertise to fix it. I would have to either fix it with some friendly help for a small sum or take it to a neighborhood mechanic for a couple hundred bucks(ish).

also if the timing is THAT far off im worried about the internals (valves).

How could it even run? Let alone idle, start up everytime and be able (technically) to drive down the road (not that I do) ?
Its just a ponderous question. I need to check the spark plug thing and behind the crank pulley. Ill be lucky if I sleep tonight. Im freaking out.

Can someone please direct me to a write up, some pics (maybe stealth316, which is kind of unsearchable), a thread or a little more detail on exactly how, with what tool and what to do?

[stealthtuner]

its alot of threads because ive been spending every moment thinking about it. it keeps me up at night. I research and post and take pics and ask friends amd 3s guys and mechanics, tow it to a shop, from a shop back home, ask family. I have tried soooo many things to fix this issue and spent even more time thinking, discussing and researching. thanks for all the help and im sorry to be needy but thats what community is for right. to help each other. thanks again.

[anyonebutme]

Where are you located, because at this point, I think the best option is to find you a local 3S guy to come over and answer this issue in 10 minutes.

[Jimvr4]

Matt and Coop already told you. Get plug number 1 out and place a long handle screwdriver into #1 and turn the motor over with a 1/2 inch drive until the screwdriver reaches it's highest point. All timing 5 timing marks should be aligned at this point. If your crank is off alignment then remove the pulley and check the crank sprocket mark. Get oohnoo's crank pulley holder tool.

[stealthtuner]

how do I check the crank sprocket mark? all 5 timing marks. u mean on the cam gears? what about the one on the crank pulley.

I hope the notch im seeing at 35 advance on the crank pulley is not the timing off itself. maybe its not even the right mark. im gonna look into this. I just have never done this. Im in loveland ohio. near cincinnati.

link for the crank pulley holder tool?

do u have a timing link for stealth316? im having trouble visualizing. im gonna try to get some local help but everyone is too busy.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

The notch on the crank pulley should at least be close to the TDC mark on the plastic timing cover.

[stealthtuner]

hmm. Yes I know it 'should'

[anyonebutme]

Line up the upper marks, remove both the alternator and power steering belt, impact off the crank bolt, wiggle off the pulley, look at the timing mark on the oil pump Coop posted already. At that point you're choices are "it's OK", or "it's screwed". This method will answer any of the possibilities I posted.

Other options have all been posted in here, a very good one by Greg is to buy a compression tester and test a cylinder. You don't even have to get dirty for that as it's just pulling a plug out and cranking the engine. It'll either say roughly 150 psi or it won't. If it's under say 120psi, you got issues, but this method won't tell you WHAT the issue is.

As for how to's with pictures and stuff, Google a phrase like "how to remove crank pulley 3000GT", there has to be at least 400 hits on 3si alone.

[stealthtuner]

id like to do a compression and leakdown test after I find the problem. Just to make sure the engine isnt damaged. compression at least. not sure what a leakdown does but I hear its useful in determining engine health.

thanks for the input. I need to get some local help. Im trying to find it. I want to make sure I do the timing right because that is one of the areas I have no experience with.

[TurboSinceBirth]

You can have the timing jump on you with the car just sitting or driving it. I had my tensioner pulley bolt back out from too much vibration in the aftermarket crank pulley and/or the previous owner reusing the bolt to do the timing. I'm actually very surprised it didn't jump timing on me because as soon as I touched the belt it did. I swapped out the crank pulley, bought new OEM bolts, and redid the timing so it shouldn't happen again.

Definitely pull the crank pulley off and check that timing mark on the cog gear against the timing marks on the cam gears/valve covers. Hopefully everything lines up. If not you will need to fix it. Check out the engine manual: http://www.3sx.com/faq/manuals/Service-Manual-Mitsubishi-Engines-6G72.pdf. Read pages 54-61 to get a good idea on the timing belt system and how it should be lined up/set. You obviously don't have to do all of this if the timing is good but it will show you how it's supposed to be when you're in there checking it.

[Greg E]

id like to do a compression and leakdown test after I find the problem. Just to make sure the engine isnt damaged. compression at least. not sure what a leakdown does but I hear its useful in determining engine health.

They are tests which help you find the problem....

[stealthtuner]

thanks guys. Ill give you an update. Im having a mechanic come out to take a look. This issue is just a bit beyond my expertise.

[stealthtuner]

So the mechanic put cylinder 1 (if youre looking at the engine bay it was closest cylinder to the front of the car and towards the crank pulley; front right if you will) at its top position (with something in the spark plug slot) and the crank pulley mark exactly on T for TDC, and the cam gears were all off (the same amount it appeared). So the timing belt must have skipped teeth on a cold start. given that the belt is new and was just done. I am suspicious of the tensioner being the culprit. So I ordered a kit with 2 pulleys (tensioner) and a tensioner piece that Im guessing the pulley mounts onto. The mechanic offered me a very fair price on doing the timing belt.

It sucks and its a shame. But at least we found the problem and I was offered a good price. He compression tested the front 3 cylinders and they were all perfect. He said if there was damage to the engine (ex: valves bent) it would almost certainly be bent valves in all cylinders and loss of compression in each. He thinks the engine will be fine. If the timing was off the whole time it was being diagnosed and tested and there was damage it would be by the same amount across the board in all likelihood. I think ill have him check the back 3 compression too. Im definitely going to change the oil first thing and put some shell rotella t15w-45 in it.

Thanks for all your input and I'll let you know how it works out.