tearing apart engine.

[shmoo]

how's it going guys?

i'm in the process of tearing this motor apart. thus far, i've gotten the heads off, and have been advised to not take the valves or valve springs out, at least not until i take the whole thing to a machine shop.

i'm going to pick up an engine stand shortly, and take the oil pan off, but i'm pretty clueless after that.

i know to label baggies/boxes, as that's what i've done thus far, but i need more advice.

thanks!

_isiah

[futurevr4man]

what do you need advice on? what are you doing?

[sketch]

what are you looking for advice on? so far it looks like you're on the right track - bag & tag everything you take off/out. got any specifics you need pointers on?

[shmoo]

it's just thaT i'm about to start with the crank, and i haven't a clue what it even looks like down there. is there anything that i shouldn't be taking off? i dunno, let me get the oil pan off first, and i'll start posting some pictures,

thanks!

_isiah

[shmoo]

what do you need advice on? what are you doing?

i'm just going to be rebuilding the engine. possibly to stock specs, possibly not. likely with at least a forged crank.

what do y'all think.. is it reasonable to upgrade rods, and or pistons, and nothing in the head? how about vice versa. i think i'm down to upgrade some of the internals, but i don't think i want to afford nearly all of them..

_isiah

[Ange]

i'm just going to be rebuilding the engine. possibly to stock specs, possibly not. likely with at least a forged crank.

what do y'all think.. is it reasonable to upgrade rods, and or pistons, and nothing in the head? how about vice versa. i think i'm down to upgrade some of the internals, but i don't think i want to afford nearly all of them..

_isiah
I think stock rods and pistons are a weaker link than the crank. Just saying..

[sketch]

what are your goals with the build?

[Boost4VR4]

how's it going guys?

i'm in the process of tearing this motor apart. thus far, i've gotten the heads off, and have been advised to not take the valves or valve springs out, at least not until i take the whole thing to a machine shop.

i'm going to pick up an engine stand shortly, and take the oil pan off, but i'm pretty clueless after that.

i know to label baggies/boxes, as that's what i've done thus far, but i need more advice.

thanks!

_isiah

If you want some visuals on the engine , take a look at my Build Thread.

It's in the NA Forced Induction section and it's called Big Single Build. Lots of a good photos on throughout the whole thread.

[shmoo]

I think stock rods and pistons are a weaker link than the crank. Just saying..

o really? being that the crank is what it all attaches to, i figured it was the most important. i have a ton of research to do. like what stock bore pistons people are going with? attaching them to stock rods?


what are your goals with the build?

reliable, a little more pep in the step, so i can stop considering bolt ons.


If you want some visuals on the engine , take a look at my Build Thread.

It's in the NA Forced Induction section and it's called Big Single Build. Lots of a good photos on throughout the whole thread.

i'll check it out man, thanks

_isiah

[sergechronos]

I'd upgrade the crank before the pistons and rods. A forged crank can take as much abuse as you can throw at it, the stock rods are good to bout 600awtq, and the stock pistons are good to around the 500awtq number on pump. That said, forging the bottom end is better all done in one shot IMO. The block has to be bored for forged pistons, even if stock size (because the forged pistons will expand more than the stock ones) and either way you're going to have to hone. Better to only have to do that stuff once.

Upgrading the heads and cams is nice, but not super necessary (doesn't hurt though) since we're forced induction. You can make quite a bit of power with the stock heads (which already flow pretty well anyhow) and the springs and retainers are good enough for 264 cams if you want to go that route (which is about as far as you'd want to take a daily driver anyhow.) 2k worth of heads is just about enough to forge the bottom end, and by the time you're running enough boost for the upgraded heads to make a difference, you're likely near the limit of what the stock internals will take.

To put it another way: upgraded heads with stock internals is more power, but less room for error with the tune and a lower overhead before you reach the limit. And the opposite is true for forged internals and stock heads, you'd make less power for the money spent, but you've got a greater margin for error and can go much farther before you reach the limit of the parts.

[shmoo]

^^^maugh, helpful post.

[futurevr4man]

Isiah, don't worry about upgrading the heads. I would clean them if I were you, and put in new valve stem seals (VSS), but upgrading the heads is expensive and it is money better spent elsewhere (I am assuming your goals are fairly conservative).

Bryan is right about the stock rods and pistons (although the numbers aren't set in stone by any means). If your goal is 500 ponies or less, then dont worry about anything except the crank. The 2 bolt crank is pretty weak, so getting a 4 bolt (forged) crank is a good place to start.

I cant think of anything you can take off from the bottom end that you "shouldn't". I assume you are doing bearings and that's the whole point of this? Here is a small list of some of the essentials that you should replace if you are trying to refresh the engine. I am sure there are more than what I will list:

- valve stem seals
- new piston rings
- main and rod bearings
- head gaskets (MLS only)
- plenum gaskets (upper and lower)\
- oil and water gaskets
- oil pump
- water pump
- oil pickup tube (OEM ONLY)

I am sure you are capable of doing everything. Piston rings and the bearings will be the two hardest parts. Download the manual from 3sx's website and use it as the holy bible. Look for answers there, then search the forums, and if you still can't figure it out, ask questions. If you do things in that order, people are much more apt to help you! Good luck buddy.

[sergechronos]

To add to the list of parts Nathan has suggested, for a stockish rebuild, have the valve guides checked and replaced if worn. Lot of heads don't have that done and are worn and loose. Amongst a variety of other issues it can wear valve stems quicker.

I've been through 3 sets of heads, and all 3 were worn pretty bad. If you go that route, expect about 5-10 per valve for the machine work plus cost of guides. I had my heads cleaned, checked, guides replaced and vss replaced, valves checked and a valve job done for about 600 locally.

Beyond that, I'd recommend OEM head bolts (he didn't list that) and go OEM on the head gasket as well and oil and water pumps. Getting your tb rebuilt if you haven't already is a good thing to budget for as well.

A stock rebuild with a forged crank and decent tune can handle most bolt on turbos.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[futurevr4man]

just go OEM on everything. Go through Cherry Hill and you won't break the bank.

[Jimvr4]

just go OEM on everything. Go through Cherry Hill and you won't break the bank.

^^This and use the 3SGTO code to get additional discount

[shmoo]

^^thank you thank you!

unfortunately, i'm having to put this tear down on pause until i find a new place to tear this motor apart.

_isiah

[shmoo]

back on the horse, or maybe it's off of the horse.

got back to tearing down this engine yesterday, and this is where i ended up today.

so, yesterday:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9025.jpg

got the oil pan off:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9030.jpg

then got the oil pick up off, along with the cradle. when my first lesson occurred.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9033.jpg

i thought this little sliver was a broken piece.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9034.jpg
but, after taking the crank out, i found another one, and then got to looking and found two more.
are these just placed on the sides of the cradle? on the inboard braces where it attaches to the block?

then, kept a ripping and found this:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9041.jpg
went back and looked at the cradle to find that the other rainbows (on the cradle) actually had this piece, so i guess this one just didn't feel like coming out with the cradle.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9040.jpg

_isiah

[shmoo]

when i found a couple more slivers and decided that they weren't broken pieces, but just strange pieces. again, do these just get set on the cradle, or crank on the inboard aparati?
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9042.jpg

then, i kept a romping to find this:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9043.jpg
i think i'll start eating pizza and drinking coke while working on my engine and watching trains go by..

then, i started pushing pistons out.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9045.jpg

then crank out, and that's pretty much when i just bull shat for the rest of the night.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9062.jpg

and i ended up finding more soda, possibly beer can remnants on another rod or two. i guess they just didn't feel right about the clearance?.. or is this standard procedure?

**and, i know i'll either be buying another crank, or getting this one loved on. i can feel scores in many of the (journals?)

and, where does this little half a pie piece go?
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9048.jpg
i found it upon removing the oil pump housing, or whatever that thing at the crank pulley end of the block is.

rog, let me know what you think, and what's my next step? i'm thinking take the block, crank, pistons, and likely heads to a machine shop to hear their opinion. or maybe i'll just buy a running engine. what do you think my cost will be to get this thing back together correctly (to stock spec most likely, unless i have a couple bad pistons at which point, i may upgrade something.) and i'll also do a fresh 120k

thanks for reading, opinions, and help in texas are very welcome.

_isiah

[sergechronos]

Adding strips of coke cans isn't a standard procedure to fix clearances I'm afraid. Those half moon things that you pulled out that you don't recognize are thrust washers, they are set against the crank around the middle of the block but can't recall off hand. You'll see them in the factory service manual when you look at it.

Your crank looks pretty well fragged and will likely need replacing. You may be able to have it turned at the machine shop, but I don't really trust turned cranks for anything other than stock power levels.

The little half pie piece in your last post looks like the woodruff key that goes into the crank shaft snout where the crank cog rests, there's a little indentation there for it.


If you're serious about rebuilding this, take the block, rods and pistons to the machine shop as well as the heads.

Take block, rods, pistons, (new) crank and heads to the machine shop. Minimum is get the block honed and get all the parts hot tanked/cleaned. If you decide to go forged internals, you will likely need more machine work than that. Get the VSS replaced in the heads at a minimum, you may want a valve job as well pending mileage and perhaps even the valve guides. If you have the time, get the casting marks removed from the heads before hand as it's basically free hp you'll pick up and can be done with a dremel and cartridge rolls. For just hot tanking and honing, it'll likely be around $100-150. For VSS, valve job and/or valve guides, you're looking at anywhere from $200-500 depending how much you get done. If you have them actually assemble the short block, your costs will be higher but I can't say for sure how much higher.

Cost of a new forged crank is going to be at least $300, your machine shop costs will likely be between $300-600, new bearings are $100, 120k is somewhere around 600-650 as I recall. You'll also need new OEM engine gasket kit which is 420, plus new cam cap gaskets ($45) and new OEM head bolts ($100).

On top of those, you will likely want to replace your oil cooler and at least get your turbos rebuilt (or upgraded) as it looks like those journals are pretty shot and you may have had some debris bouncing around. You're pretty much looking at about $2000ish to rebuild the actual engine if only your crank is damaged. You can get a running engine for that, but factor in what it's going to cost to do a 120k on that as well when you're comparing prices unless they can prove that maintenance was recently done. By the time you've rebuild the engine and replaced the oil cooler and turbos, you're probably looking at close to 3k but you'd know you have an engine and stuff that's essentially brand new.

If you end up wanting to forge the internals, seriously just do it all in one shot IMO. If you're not in a rush, you can do all this pretty economically though if you snag deals.

[anyonebutme]

Isiah, download the factory manual off 3SX's website. You WILL need it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Wow I've heard of old timers shimming stuff like that during model t times, but never seen it before. That's about the most shady thing you can do.
Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk

[shmoo]

Isiah, download the factory manual off 3SX's website. You WILL need it.


i've got the service manual. volumes one and two, not sure if there are more. it's the first picture in my last post. is that the manual you're speaking of?


Wow I've heard of old timers shimming stuff like that during model t times, but never seen it before. That's about the most shady thing you can do.
Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk
yeah, pretty awesome, i chalked it up to shotty mechanics.

and, i had someone on the other board tell me that was a non turbo block. anyway i can tell? i'll look though my manual tomorrow at the office.

thanks

_isiah

[Memphetic]

Nothing wrong with turned cranks as far as I (and Ray Pampena) am concerned. Every 6G72 3.5 stroker he has built was with a 3.5 Diamante crankshaft turned to stock journal 6G72 pin diameter. People will complain about the loss of nitriding - which is just a SURFACE hardener and has nothing to do with the ability of the crank to withstand stress. You can't honestly believe that 49.75mm vs 50mm will make a difference in strength - it's only a .5% difference. The reason I bring this up is because a crankshaft for these things costs a *lot* of money.

As long as your machinist can maintain out-of-round less than 0.003 mm, and taper of less than .005 mm and you end up with an oil clearance of 0.020 - 0.050 mm. Also, ensure that the balls at the end of the journals (you will see them on the crankshaft) that are used to plug the line bored oil holes are drilled out and replaced with a tapped hex cap nut. These act like sludge traps. Either you can do it yourself by filing them flat, using a center punch, then drilling them out, or by having your machinist do it for you. If you intend to put the engine back together yourself, I have some tips for that as well, and can more or less walk you through the process. Let me know.

EDIT: That is, indeed, a N/A block. You can tell by the lack of braces on the main girdle. In addition, if you look into the block you won't find any oil squirters.

EDIT 2: Those slivers you pulled out are the thrust washers. They maintain an oil clearance between the crankshaft and the block laterally and prevent it from moving in and out. They're annoying to install, at best, and the first time I did it many years ago, I ended up crushing one. But yes, they just sit in there (that's what makes them hard to install - they're going to want to fall)

[sergechronos]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/06/ypyzu2ep.jpg

TT girdle. Note the smaller braces alongside and how the girdle has a small bit cut out for access to the bolt.

As far as turning the crank Memphetic, if you have a good machine shop (like Ray does) its not a big deal. If you don't have one or don't know yet if yours is good, that's a horse of a different color IMO. I personally have spent several months looking for a machine shop to do the machining for my forged motor that is going to do it the way that I want it (ie. Clearances shouldn't be at .035 and piston to wall clearance of five thou is madness.)

Shmoo ask local 3S owners to see if there's a local shop that they use or recommend.

[shmoo]

Nothing wrong with turned cranks as far as I (and Ray Pampena) am concerned. Every 6G72 3.5 stroker he has built was with a 3.5 Diamante crankshaft turned to stock journal 6G72 pin diameter. People will complain about the loss of nitriding - which is just a SURFACE hardener and has nothing to do with the ability of the crank to withstand stress. You can't honestly believe that 49.75mm vs 50mm will make a difference in strength - it's only a .5% difference. The reason I bring this up is because a crankshaft for these things costs a *lot* of money.

As long as your machinist can maintain out-of-round less than 0.003 mm, and taper of less than .005 mm and you end up with an oil clearance of 0.020 - 0.050 mm. Also, ensure that the balls at the end of the journals (you will see them on the crankshaft) that are used to plug the line bored oil holes are drilled out and replaced with a tapped hex cap nut. These act like sludge traps. Either you can do it yourself by filing them flat, using a center punch, then drilling them out, or by having your machinist do it for you. If you intend to put the engine back together yourself, I have some tips for that as well, and can more or less walk you through the process. Let me know.

EDIT: That is, indeed, a N/A block. You can tell by the lack of braces on the main girdle. In addition, if you look into the block you won't find any oil squirters.

EDIT 2: Those slivers you pulled out are the thrust washers. They maintain an oil clearance between the crankshaft and the block laterally and prevent it from moving in and out. They're annoying to install, at best, and the first time I did it many years ago, I ended up crushing one. But yes, they just sit in there (that's what makes them hard to install - they're going to want to fall)

damn, i'm surprised that no one pointed that out earlier. maybe i didn't point out that i thought it was a tt block. so, what do you think? this engine is supposed to be for my car, and someone on here posted that it'd probably be around two grand to get that engine back up and running perfectly. since i just want a stock tt engine, i'd be better off just finding a stock engine somewhere else.

and, it's not like i'm gonna throw this engine away, so i'll probably try to rebuild it at some point, but for now, it's just a pile of extra parts.

to be clear: i should not attempt to put these na internals in my car? or i should and just change out the pistons/rods and cradle


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/06/ypyzu2ep.jpg

TT girdle. Note the smaller braces alongside and how the girdle has a small bit cut out for access to the bolt.

As far as turning the crank Memphetic, if you have a good machine shop (like Ray does) its not a big deal. If you don't have one or don't know yet if yours is good, that's a horse of a different color IMO. I personally have spent several months looking for a machine shop to do the machining for my forged motor that is going to do it the way that I want it (ie. Clearances shouldn't be at .035 and piston to wall clearance of five thou is madness.)

Shmoo ask local 3S owners to see if there's a local shop that they use or recommend.

there aren't really any local owners, but texas is Huge, so i'm sure there's something within an eight hour drive.

thanks for the helps y'all. i have a lot to understand..

_isiah

[sergechronos]

NA internals for a TT build is fine...For stock turbos and stock boost levels. They don't take kindly to much more than that. It's not as simple as changing out the pistons, rods and cradle though. To use a TT cradle, you'd need a TT block.

You may want to check your heads and make sure that you've actually got turbo heads and cams, could be that the original engine was blown and the original owner just swapped an NA long block in there.

I'm selling that block pictured which has already been tanked, honed and new piston rings for 450 shipped if you end up just needing the block and internals. With a forged crank in there, the two bolt engine and internals are good for most bolt on turbos. I've got a forged crank at a local shop that has a reputation for good (if slow) work that needs turning. Could basically rebuild the shortblock for 300 plus cost of new bearings, machine work to turn the crank and cost of shipping. Probably end up somewhere in the $700-800ish range.

[sketch]

these are also NA (10:1 compression ratio) pistons.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9045.jpg


compare to turbo (8:1 compression ratio) pistons here:
http://www.wrenchjockey.com/Images/4boltSwap/engine020.jpg
http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/pistons-ross-tt-93mm-07-500.jpg

[shmoo]

NA internals for a TT build is fine...For stock turbos and stock boost levels. They don't take kindly to much more than that. It's not as simple as changing out the pistons, rods and cradle though. To use a TT cradle, you'd need a TT block.

You may want to check your heads and make sure that you've actually got turbo heads and cams, could be that the original engine was blown and the original owner just swapped an NA long block in there.

I'm selling that block pictured which has already been tanked, honed and new piston rings for 450 shipped if you end up just needing the block and internals. With a forged crank in there, the two bolt engine and internals are good for most bolt on turbos. I've got a forged crank at a local shop that has a reputation for good (if slow) work that needs turning. Could basically rebuild the shortblock for 300 plus cost of new bearings, machine work to turn the crank and cost of shipping. Probably end up somewhere in the $700-800ish range.

well, i've already got 13t turbos. , so, you're telling me that for 800ish, i can have a two bolt that's all together from you? what was the 450 shipped for? i'll pm you.


these are also NA (10:1 compression ratio) pistons.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9045.jpg


compare to turbo (8:1 compression ratio) pistons here:
http://www.wrenchjockey.com/Images/4boltSwap/engine020.jpg
http://www.3sx.com/store/catalog/pistons-ross-tt-93mm-07-500.jpg

uhhhhhhh, something about newts, thanks.

_isiah

[shmoo]

alrighty,

so..

how can i tell the difference between the turbo heads and the non turbo heads. my service manual said that one difference is something about when the exhaust valve opens, or something..

and, they came with the same cam angle sensor. like the motor i just tore apart has the same sensor as the engine that is in my car, well they look the same.

what the hell should i do? i just want a stock build.

i'm not trying to cut corners, i just want to know the most cost efficient way to build this thing. to handle the 13t's that i already have.

i'm getting the vibe from serge that i shouldn't just throw tt pistons in there.

it seems like i should just be looking for an engine that's ready to drop in, well minus the accessories.

if***..

i get just a tt block that's complete. as in pistons and the surround, will i be able to use the heads that i pulled off of this block?

my number is 575 441 5701 shoot me a text or call whenever, i'll be sitting in the storage unit for a while, well until monday night.

_isiah

[sergechronos]

alrighty,

so..

how can i tell the difference between the turbo heads and the non turbo heads. my service manual said that one difference is something about when the exhaust valve opens, or something..

and, they came with the same cam angle sensor. like the motor i just tore apart has the same sensor as the engine that is in my car, well they look the same.

what the hell should i do? i just want a stock build.

i'm not trying to cut corners, i just want to know the most cost efficient way to build this thing. to handle the 13t's that i already have.

i'm getting the vibe from serge that i shouldn't just throw tt pistons in there.

it seems like i should just be looking for an engine that's ready to drop in, well minus the accessories.

if***..

i get just a tt block that's complete. as in pistons and the surround, will i be able to use the heads that i pulled off of this block?

my number is 575 441 5701 shoot me a text or call whenever, i'll be sitting in the storage unit for a while, well until monday night.

_isiah

For a stock build (er..rebuild) finding a complete OEM long block that has had 60k/120kservice recently done is probably your best bet for doing it reasonably. Having one built is expensive, and not something I'd do again for my personal car outside of building forged. If you can find a long block even if it hasn't had the 60k or 120k done for say a thousand bucks with less than 120k, figure bout 200-300 in shipping costs and spend about a 700-800ish to do the 60k, oil pump and bearings, you should be pretty well set. If possible, replacing the VSS while you're at it (which is doable with just a $50 tool and a compressor) and you've basically done everything that should be done for a long while.

While you COULD just put TT pistons there, I'd be leery of not having those extra girdle stays to help keep the girdle in place. If you got a complete TT short block (pistons, rods, crank) you can use your heads off of that block either way, NA heads aren't quite as efficient but with forced induction that doesn't make as much difference as you think unless you're chasing the bleeding edge.

[Jimvr4]

You do know a 13T build is not exactly stock right? You'll have to make your own feed and return lines and do some grinding of the front motor mount to make them fit.

[CoopKill]

I believe the 13t's were the ones he had in there in the first place.

[shmoo]

You do know a 13T build is not exactly stock right? You'll have to make your own feed and return lines and do some grinding of the front motor mount to make them fit.

i've had 13t's for a couple years now. i didn't modify any oil or coolant lines, nor cut any engine or transmission mounts to install them. i think the only thing i did was cut up a few ic pipes.


I believe the 13t's were the ones he had in there in the first place.

roaug.

_isiah

so, at this second, i'm thinking i want to find a complete block and heads that are known to be in reasonable shape, and either send them off to ray, or depending on if the block is healthy with good compression, maybe just send the heads to ray, then 60/120k

[Jimvr4]

i've had 13t's for a couple years now. i didn't modify any oil or coolant lines, nor cut any engine or transmission mounts to install them. i think the only thing i did was cut up a few ic pipes.


Carry on :)

[sergechronos]

Why would you need to send the heads to Ray?

If the block is in good shape with good compression numbers, then replacing bearings and all timing components would be as far as I'd want to go. Opening a long block adds a minimum of $200 onto your costs for new HGs and head bolts. Any issue with valves could be found with a leakdown tester

[FeaRpb]

I have a good 1g shorty if you need to buy a block. (I am also in texas :P)

[shmoo]

Why would you need to send the heads to Ray?

If the block is in good shape with good compression numbers, then replacing bearings and all timing components would be as far as I'd want to go. Opening a long block adds a minimum of $200 onto your costs for new HGs and head bolts. Any issue with valves could be found with a leakdown tester

for one, i verified that all of my parts are for a non turbo application. i'd rather use all components that were meant to be on a tt engine.

*i feel like i should send the heads off to be reconditioned if i get a set that was just pulled off of a block.

if i were to buy your block from you, it wouldn't come with heads, yes? and if you did manage to snaggle a set, they would need to be recondition, yes?


I have a good 1g shorty if you need to buy a block. (I am also in texas :P)

y, i'll shoot you a pm.

_isiah

[sergechronos]

You wouldn't need to send the heads to Ray to get them done. IF you were to send them anywhere, I'd send them to Dynamic Racing. But for what we're talking about, any decent machine shop should be able to do what you would need to recondition a set of heads: a 5-angle valve job and new VSS, check the guides out and see if they need to be replaced. Cost of a valve job is only around 300-400 bucks usually, VSS wouldn't be much more since it's all apart. Valve guides are where it gets expensive (usually expect between 5-10 per valve for the machining, plus cost of guides.)

I had a set of heads get all that done, came out to 575 with me supplying the parts. Shipping them off to Ray would just add another $100 onto the cost most likely to get it shipped each way.

[shmoo]

^^damn this.

[sergechronos]

Yeah, heads are expensive business. The 24 guides cost me $10 each for the machining, cost like $200 for the guides. The VSS were viton, cost me about $75 for the set IIRC and they charged 25 to install them. The 5 angle valve job was 175 a head including disassembly, cleaning, machine work and reassembly and I provided them with extra valves so they could choose the best 24. I smoothed out casting marks in the runners on mine since they were getting cleaned anyhow. Going beyond that I wouldn't trust anyone but DR to do it.

[DrGonzo]

You'll have no issue running your current heads on a TT block. Unless you bent a valve you most likely will not need to have your guides replaced. The machine shop should just check that the head is straight, replace the VSS and clean it. Unless you were having compression issue of bent a valve there is no need to a valve job. The valve in the head should be seating just fine. Since you are just throwing your 13T's back on and they ran fine before, no need in doing a full head rebuilt. That is exactly what I did on my last engine and it runs fine. I'm using N/A heads with TT exhaust Cams. The flow differences in the TT and N/A head is very minimal. TT exhaust cam is used as they keep the exhaust side open longer than the N/A cam's do. Unless you are pushing the limits of an engine and need that extra flow, you will never notice the difference in the heads. I actually think I have better low end now due to the N/A heads...

If you go with Forged pistons you will have to have the engine bored. Nobody makes stock size bore forged pistons that I know of.

You need to plan you build based off of your power goals. If you're only looking to go 400-450hp than stock internals are fine but recommend a forged crank. If you looking to go 500+ then you need to get a forged crank and forged pistons. Over 600+ HP you'll need better rods. My build is rated for the 450hp mark. I'm running a forged crank and stock rods/pistons. My forged crank is also turned and I'm running .020 oversized bearings on the main and .010 oversized bearing on the rods running a .0025 clearance on both. I have great oil pressure running it this way. This engine currently only has about 7k on it.

[Jimvr4]

Ray P makes forged pistons for stock bores. That's what I run

[shmoo]

Yeah, heads are expensive business. The 24 guides cost me $10 each for the machining, cost like $200 for the guides. The VSS were viton, cost me about $75 for the set IIRC and they charged 25 to install them. The 5 angle valve job was 175 a head including disassembly, cleaning, machine work and reassembly and I provided them with extra valves so they could choose the best 24. I smoothed out casting marks in the runners on mine since they were getting cleaned anyhow. Going beyond that I wouldn't trust anyone but DR to do it.

wouldn't trust ray's shop to do such a task? i thought they did bang up work..

anywho, i'll have to give dynamic a call. i want to do it right, so i'm not ripping anything apart for a second time. well, not anytime soon at least.


You'll have no issue running your current heads on a TT block. Unless you bent a valve you most likely will not need to have your guides replaced. The machine shop should just check that the head is straight, replace the VSS and clean it. Unless you were having compression issue of bent a valve there is no need to a valve job. The valve in the head should be seating just fine. Since you are just throwing your 13T's back on and they ran fine before, no need in doing a full head rebuilt. That is exactly what I did on my last engine and it runs fine. I'm using N/A heads with TT exhaust Cams. The flow differences in the TT and N/A head is very minimal. TT exhaust cam is used as they keep the exhaust side open longer than the N/A cam's do. Unless you are pushing the limits of an engine and need that extra flow, you will never notice the difference in the heads. I actually think I have better low end now due to the N/A heads...

If you go with Forged pistons you will have to have the engine bored. Nobody makes stock size bore forged pistons that I know of.

You need to plan you build based off of your power goals. If you're only looking to go 400-450hp than stock internals are fine but recommend a forged crank. If you looking to go 500+ then you need to get a forged crank and forged pistons. Over 600+ HP you'll need better rods. My build is rated for the 450hp mark. I'm running a forged crank and stock rods/pistons. My forged crank is also turned and I'm running .020 oversized bearings on the main and .010 oversized bearing on the rods running a .0025 clearance on both. I have great oil pressure running it this way. This engine currently only has about 7k on it.

so, you're saying maybe to just send off my na heads for:

-cleaning
-vss
-(99 lifters)

and maybe a set of tt exhaust cams?

or, even not send that junk off, i can reinstall cam shafts, rockers, and lifters. i need a special tool to install the vss, don't i?

so, maybe just go get these na heads cleaned, and install:
-vss
-99 lifters
-tt exhaust cams (gears and shafts?)

and slap all those things onto a healthy block?

_isiah

[shmoo]

so, what's the difference between rod and main bearings? the main bearings sit up in the cradle, while the rod bearings go around the crank?

would i only want oversized bearings if i had to take so much off the crank to make good clearance?

so would it be reasonable to just:
-get a 2 bolt tt block that's already together

-and slap new vss, tt exhaust cams, and 99 lifters in my na heads and be done?

_isiah

[sergechronos]

wouldn't trust ray's shop to do such a task? i thought they did bang up work..

anywho, i'll have to give dynamic a call. i want to do it right, so i'm not ripping anything apart for a second time. well, not anytime soon at least.

You misunderstand, I meant going beyond just smoothing casting marks (ie, actual port and polish work) I wouldn't trust anyone other than Dynamic Racing to do the heads or else they could do more harm than good.




so, you're saying maybe to just send off my na heads for:

-cleaning
-vss
-(99 lifters)

and maybe a set of tt exhaust cams?

or, even not send that junk off, i can reinstall cam shafts, rockers, and lifters. i need a special tool to install the vss, don't i?

Yes, if the heads are in good shape that's all you need. Being as the short block obviously isn't a TT, and we don't know yet if your heads are TT or NA, I still say have a machine shop check your valve to guide clearance and make sure it's good as well as your valve seats since we don't know the true mileage or condition of the motor. A good shop won't charge you much (if anything) to check it out, and if you do have issues, it's better to find out now.

You need a special tool to do the VSS on the car, with it off the car you can use (if you can find one that fits) a fairly standard valve spring compressor and socket with a clearance spot ground out to get the keepers on and off. Pretty much anything that will compress the spring and allow you to get access to remove and reinstall the keepers is all that you need to do it.

You can swap the TT exhaust cams on yourself without any trouble, just keep your cam caps in order. you can also do the 99 lifters on your own as well but if you're having a machine shop do the VSS then you might as well have them toss them in during reassembly. A machine shop's cleaning of the heads would require disassembling everything anyhow so if you're going to have them do it, might as well have them do the VSS and the lifters. You can do it both yourself with a bit of patience and the right tool, especially since you're removing the valve springs for the VSS replacement that's an easy time to swap lifters as well.



so, what's the difference between rod and main bearings? the main bearings sit up in the cradle, while the rod bearings go around the crank?

would i only want oversized bearings if i had to take so much off the crank to make good clearance?

so would it be reasonable to just:
-get a 2 bolt tt block that's already together

-and slap new vss, tt exhaust cams, and 99 lifters in my na heads and be done?

_isiah

Rod bearings go on the larger end of the rod, the main bearings sit in the block/cradle, both types of bearings go around the crank.

In general oversized bearings are only used when the clearance is out of spec due to turning the crank. I've heard of people putting them after spinning a bearing on other platforms, but have my doubts about that.

[TurboSinceBirth]

Ray P makes forged pistons for stock bores. That's what I run

Not only that but Ray's stock sized pistons are the same weight as factory so you don't have to rebalance the lower end. I don't think too many people are fully aware of that or realize it. If you get aftermarket forged rods everything has to be balanced anyways but for just a piston upgrade you can save the $2-250 for balancing.

[shmoo]

hmmmm. learning learning..

question:

you said to be sure to keep the cam shaft caps in the same spots. that's fine i suppose. but when i go to put in the tt shafts, do i want to use the cam caps from the tt shafts, or the na head? got me?

and i have one set of na heads for sure (that are here in texas with me) and a set of 2 bolt tt heads that are back in missouri. i have a good feeling that the tt heads are going to be in far rougher shape than the na ones.

and, if it would save me money and time to just use the na ones (as in being able to keep them local, i'd probably just do that.

when i replace the vss, will i be removing the valve guides too?

and is there a special tool that y'all are buying to do this, or just cutting up a socket and getting the generic valve spring compressor?

let me know.

thanks

_isiah

[sergechronos]

The cam caps are respective to the heads, not the cams. So whatever order you took them off the heads, is the order you need to put them back on those same heads.
TT cams are pretty cheap to buy used.

VSS doesn't remove the valve guides. Those are the bronze/brass inserts inside of the head that the valve slides up and down in. If you look in the exhaust runners you can generally see the bottoms of them sticking out.

I actually had a valve spring compressor that was about the right size, but don't remember brand or model off hand. You could use a C clamp and a cut out socket (or pipe) to mimic it.

Valve Stem Seals (VSS) Replacement - 3SI Wiki (http://www.3si.org/wiki/index.php?title=Valve_Stem_Seals_(VSS)_Replacement&redirect=no)

That gives all the directions you would need. I don't know that the bluepoint tool can be used with the heads removed. Not sure if it would bend a valve trying to use a flat surface under it to hold it in place or not, but I imagine it isn't ideal compared to a C shaped valve spring compressor.

[shmoo]

^^it'd be dope nasty if you could post pictures of the tool you use to remove the springs.

and, when you say the order i removed the cam shaft caps in, do you mean literally the exact same order i removed them in, or that i just need to make sure they all go back in the same exact place?

but yeah, the tool i need would be awesome. hopefully i'll take these things to a machine shop so i can get started on them at least.

y, i'm still deciding on a route to pick up this engine.

thanks

_isiah

[DrGonzo]

^^it'd be dope nasty if you could post pictures of the tool you use to remove the springs.

and, when you say the order i removed the cam shaft caps in, do you mean literally the exact same order i removed them in, or that i just need to make sure they all go back in the same exact place?

but yeah, the tool i need would be awesome. hopefully i'll take these things to a machine shop so i can get started on them at least.

y, i'm still deciding on a route to pick up this engine.

thanks

_isiah

The cam caps will have numbers on them and an arrow point to the front of the head. They need to be installed in the same order as that was the order they were in when the cam area was line bored. If they are not in the same place the hole will not be round and the cam will not turn.

As for the VSS, I find them to be the biggest pain in the ass of the whole engine build. I have a homemade tool I use for it which makes it easier to remove them. I tried using a bluepoint tool to install the wedges and broke a damn valve with it...POS tool. Next time I ned to do any head work that involves removing valves or springs it's going to the shop and they can deal with it....

[sergechronos]

^^it'd be dope nasty if you could post pictures of the tool you use to remove the springs.

and, when you say the order i removed the cam shaft caps in, do you mean literally the exact same order i removed them in, or that i just need to make sure they all go back in the same exact place?

but yeah, the tool i need would be awesome. hopefully i'll take these things to a machine shop so i can get started on them at least.

y, i'm still deciding on a route to pick up this engine.

thanks

_isiah

Like DrGonzo said, the caps have to go back into the same spots that they were removed from, the order your bolt them down is actually in the FSM I believe. Make sure you use a torque wrench so that you don't over torque the bolts and snap. It's a very very small number (something like 10ft/lbs) and if you snap a bolt in there it can be a pain to get it removed without damaging anything.

I'll see if I can find the tool somewhere. I'm in the process of moving so everything is packed up. The homemade tool DrGonzo is talking about is mentioned (and possibly linked) in that Wiki article on doing the VSS and honestly is pretty much the best way to go about it. You can search the forums and likely find the specific brand and model numbers for valve spring compressors to use that will work. I've often wondered if 4.6L Mustang valve spring compressors would work as they utilize a very similar set up as we do, but not sure on the clearances due to our cam caps being right next to the lobes as well as the horizontal size of the lobes likely being different. Would require someone who works on the modular Fords regularly to know.

As stated before though, a large enough C Clamp and a modified socket will work if you want to rig up something on your own.


The cam caps will have numbers on them and an arrow point to the front of the head. They need to be installed in the same order as that was the order they were in when the cam area was line bored. If they are not in the same place the hole will not be round and the cam will not turn.

As for the VSS, I find them to be the biggest pain in the ass of the whole engine build. I have a homemade tool I use for it which makes it easier to remove them. I tried using a bluepoint tool to install the wedges and broke a damn valve with it...POS tool. Next time I ned to do any head work that involves removing valves or springs it's going to the shop and they can deal with it....

[shmoo]

alrighty, bringing this back to the top. i started ripping apart another 6g72, but i'm pretty sure this one is TT.

took the oil pan off:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9126.jpg

got the cradle off.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9141.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9144.jpg

in that last picture, on the crank, i think it looks a little funny. it looks like there's a bearing there, but should it be covered, or am i missing a piece of the crank?

i can pull out the na crank to compare, but should they look the same?

thanks

_isiah

[shmoo]

aha, this picture:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/shmooly/engine%20updaTe/DSC_9143.jpg

is that normal"?

[anyonebutme]

yes56

[shmoo]

^^rog, more updates to come