Throttle Body Talk

[futurevr4man]

I considered posting this in the intake manifold thread but its slightly different.

I want to start by saying that my car is a toy and a hobby, I am just experimenting with stuff. So whether its necessary or not, is not what I'm looking for. Just a good discussion regarding our engines and throttle body choices along with potential gains and losses associated.

With that being said, I have got a new intake manifold and true 90mm throttle body on order and should be here in the next few weeks. My hot side piping is 2X 2.5" off the turbos going through a dual core inter cooler and then merging into a single 3.5" pipe up to the throttle body. Currently, it is necking down to the stock 62(?) mm throttle body.

My question to everyone is, do you think I will see any significant gains from my new 90mm and intake manifold (assume the runner length is the same as stock)? I have always heard that you lose resolution in the throttle, but every example I have read of that is because the individual is running smaller cold side piping than the size of the throttle body (2" piping with 2.5" throttle body for instance). With mine being built to match, I have a feeling I won't lose too much (if any) resolution in my pedal.

One other thought I had, the evos run the same size throttle body as we do stock, but we have 50% more cylinders than they do. And they see nice gains from increasing to a 65 or 75mm throttle body/intake manifold. So would it hold any water at all to say that a 50% bigger throttle body would be a better match?

Thoughts, discussion?

[NOMIEZVR4]

what IM did you purchase?

[TurboSinceBirth]

Size your throttle body for the intercooler piping. There's no reason to go bigger because that's the smallest restriction in the whole system. Most FMIC kits have 2.75" intercooler piping which should be a 70mm ID throttle body. For 3" intercooler piping on some of the older FMIC kits a 75mm ID throttle body would be good. 91-99 DSM aftermarket throttle bodies in these sizes bolt up to our cars and all of the sensors transfer over. An Evo 8/9 will bolt up but the sensors are slightly different in design so you'd need theirs plus pigtails to splice into our harness.

I have a 70mm ID throttle body I will be doing some testing on this summer with a stock intake manifold, a ported stock intake, and then an aftermarket one to see what the gains are. Given the lack of testing and general upgraded use on big turbo builds I'm not expecting as big of gains as other platforms will see, but it'll be interesting to note what happens. I need to hook up two map sensors one pre and one post throttle body to see if I have a loss in pressure right now with stock parts.

You probably won't see significant gains until you're pushing those 20Gs full tilt. I don't expect there to be pump gas benefits. I'd love to be proven wrong though so we at least have the hard data. People lose resolution with larger throttle bodies no matter what the size of the cold size piping is. 2" piping is not going to be outflowed at low loads even on a 2.5" throttle body. WOT it could depending on the size of the turbos. A larger throttle body will flow more at part throttle than stock. You can be 20% TPS cruising but the bigger throttle body is flowing 40% more than stock making low throttle inputs shift scaling to the left majorly thus losing resolution. If you think about the flow of the butterfly valve in the throttle body it makes sense.

[futurevr4man]

I am getting my IM from Von.

I am not wanting to go bigger than my already 90mm intercooler piping. Just get a throttle body to match.

As far as the resolution goes, I kept reading about people going bigger on the TB with their smaller piping... I guess it still makes sense that the extra airflow is there though. Hopefully I can make some adjustments in the ECU to compensate for it though... at least a little.


Anyone with more knowledge or experience than I know much about how the air velocity entering the chamber affects power output? I am interested in your pressure drop test as well TSB. When do you plan to start your trials?

[fastfalcon94]

Subscribing. I'm not an expert but I'm trying to keep all of my pipes roughly the same. To me the stock TB was my biggest limiting factor so I decided to try and even it out. These are my area calculations.

2" hotside piping is 1*1*3.14*2 = 6.28
3" codeside IC piping going in/out of an IC with 3" openings is 1.5 * 1.5 * 3.14 = 7.065
Q45TB is 83mm which is 3.27" is 1.635 * 1.635 * 3.14 = 8.39. Subtract the TB shaft area and it would probably be 7.x

The stock TB ID was 60mm which is 2.36". That's 1.18 * 1.18 * 3.14 = 4.37. It would be less subtracting the shaft area and by far the limiting factor.


I was also doing some research on other 6 cylinder platforms. The nissan 300zx has two 50mm (~ 6.02 area) ID TB's and they upgrade to 60mm (8.74 area).
Supra owners upgrade as well, but I was having trouble finding the stock TB size. I almost think it's 68mm which would be 5.59.

In the other plenum thread people were saying the exhaust housings will limit our power before the stock TB size becomes an issue. I'll be testing my stock setup vs q45 this year. I hope it's not all a waste of time. I am running bigger dnp precat housings now though which I hope helps.

[anyonebutme]

You feel a "loss in resolution" because at low throttle with a large TB, small movements result in lots of airflow changes. A throttle cam solves this and allows you to tune the throttle response.

[vr4tune]

Will the s90 74mm fit the stock manifold?

[futurevr4man]

Fast falcon: I read about the exhaust being the limiting factor as well but I'm hoping with my bigger td05 turbos, that doesn't hold true currently (with stock TB). If you do the math on two 2.5" pipes merging to a 3.5" pipe, it's 9.8 merging into 9.6... Can't get much closer. The ID of my MAF is 3.5" (3.75" z06 MAF) and so now with my dinky 60mm TB it's a big time restriction. I do have concern with the air velocity being too slow, but under pressure I'm not sure if that's just a moot point really. Also, we all know that DSM's can run significantly more boost pressure than we can, even from factory, and I wonder if our TB being too small is a contributing factor. None of the guys that mess with this stuff post on here much, or if they do I just haven't seen them post about it.

ABM: I'm not sure what a throttle cam is but ill do some research. There may be some adjustments in the ecu that can help as well. With flash able anything is possible... Right? Hahaha

Idk anything about the s90. I am leaning towards no, but I can't be sure.

[vr4tune]

I believe the throttle cam is the wheel attached to the throttle plate on the exterior of the body that the cable attaches to and rolls on. The bigger the wheel the less sensitive the gas petal is.

[anyonebutme]

There may be some adjustments in the ecu that can help as well. With flash able anything is possible... Right? Hahaha



The tune isn't really going to help the fact that the car will NOT go slow no matter how hard you try, it'll act like 0 throttle and goes straight to 25%, lol. What a throttle cam does is progressively speeds up the opening speed, so the pedal moves more distance at low throttle openings than high openings. It allows you to actually drive the speed limit in school zones, lol. You'll see what I'm talking about.

[kywhitelightning]

Subbed for before/after results.

Jeff

[fastfalcon94]

This is the cam thing he is talking about. This was my Q45 before I modified it.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/intake%20manifold/IMG_20140409_123112_128_zpsstvo93ow.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/fastfalcon94/media/intake%20manifold/IMG_20140409_123112_128_zpsstvo93ow.jpg.html)

And this is after.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/intake%20manifold/IMG_20140409_203602_823_zpsj1y9xmkc.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/fastfalcon94/media/intake%20manifold/IMG_20140409_203602_823_zpsj1y9xmkc.jpg.html)

I had to modify it because the cable would have wanted to run right over my rear IC pipe. There was no room so I had to move it in. I figure right now it will behave like all of the aftermarket ones which don't have a cam and give you a nice linear throttle action. When it pivots 90 degrees the throttle plate goes from fully closed to fully open. I still need to weld the cable holding bracket to the key holed washer, but I need to do some measurements of pedal travel first. It will determine how inward/outward the bracket needs to be to go from 0% to 100% throttle.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/intake%20manifold/IMG_20140409_203547_435_zpsrksiingr.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/fastfalcon94/media/intake%20manifold/IMG_20140409_203547_435_zpsrksiingr.jpg.html)

[futurevr4man]

Oh, I've never heard that called a throttle cam before. I see now. Derp.

As far as my chrome comment, I dont really mean changing the tune, I am thinking there might be some throttle control setting in chrome that relate throttle position to load or something. Idk. I haven't looked at it at all yet, so I'm talking out my butt. I'm excited to get this thing in though. I'll post pics of everything when I get it in.

[TurboSinceBirth]

I am interested in your pressure drop test as well TSB. When do you plan to start your trials?

I'll probably try swapping the throttle bodies first since I have everything for that. I don't have a 2nd map sensor or a place to wire it up yet. Since my car is still in pieces it will depend on when I get time to work on it. I've been cleaning out the garage and getting rid of some engines so I should be able to focus on my car within the next few weekends. I still have some porting left to do on the turbine housings and I'm thinking about just getting rid of the step on the exhaust manifolds since the gasket matched set needs welded up again due to the piping wall peeling out from the last weld job. I'll probably have to send my injectors out to be cleaned after sitting in ethanol for 14 months.

I'll be out of state working a month from now for 3-4 weeks so it may be after the 2nd week of June before I get much testing done depending on how work, projects, and finals go the next few weeks.



Will the s90 74mm fit the stock manifold?

It will bolt on but you can't port the stock intake manifold out big enough for the opening. The stock intake manifold is about 72mm OD on the neck. I may try welding aluminum on the outside and extrude honing it to 70mm from the flange. First, I'll just port the flange and if that produces some good gains I will try opening things up further. The 74mm s90 throttle body I would use on an aftermarket throttle body. Most people with the stock intake manifold are running vendor FMICs with 2.75" piping so the 70mm ID throttle body will be fine.

Here's the s90 70mm ID throttle body bolted up to a stock intake manifold:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/Schuppenherz/Car%20parts/IMG_20140411_190832_zps754d6a69.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/Schuppenherz/media/Car%20parts/IMG_20140411_190832_zps754d6a69.jpg.html)


You can see the gap between the 70mm inlet and the ~62mm stock flange inlet. There's only a few mm to gain after the flange so it will still neck down unless you add material to the outside and port the inside bigger.

[anyonebutme]

I'll explain throttle cam (which is a motorcycle term, forgot what the car equivalent is called). A cammed throttle is just a cable pulley that doesn't have a constant radius. The radius from where the cable touches the pulley and the center is what determines the speed in which the pulley moves. The details aren't important, just the fact that the shape of the pulley allows you to tune response.

This is a rather extreme cam where low throttle is muted and progressively gets faster:

http://www.v11lemans.com/uploads/throttle-cam.jpg

Here are 3 cams, top is stock linear, middle has a spot around half throttle that is fast to allow quick throttle adjustment in that area, and bottom is a "faster" cam so that it's still linear but less pedal (grip) travel:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/neolover996/CIMG2174.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/neolover996/media/CIMG2174.jpg.html)

For the life of me I can't find the ones for LS and LT engines, but they used to be a very popular mod for racing.

[futurevr4man]

Thanks for the explanation, Chris!

[NOMIEZVR4]

I had a focus group yesterday and got $100+ for yapping....I bought the s90 TB. Its arriving in two weeks. I will have before/after data for you guys shortly. :)

Jeff...this was done specifically for you...;)

You said above you subbed for before/after results...so I'm helping you out buddy!! :D

[NOMIEZVR4]

I hope I don't run into any driveability problems...the car runs great as of now...

[TurboSinceBirth]

We need to get an Xcessive intake manifold next. ;)

[NOMIEZVR4]

Next year..;)

[TurboSinceBirth]

Next year..;)

This year would be better. :suspect:

[sergechronos]

This week would be better. :suspect:

Fixed it :suspect:

[NOMIEZVR4]

I'll try...:p

Honestly what would make it easy for me would be the SD patch from Greg...

[kywhitelightning]

Do you have a pre TB MAP sensor to show a before/after difference? That should be where the big difference is gonna be.

Jeff

Edit: I have seen up to 3 psi difference in pre to post TB. Problem is, my pre TB MAP sensor is also before my MAF sensor which has the screen and I know is causing some of that extra pressure. Take note though, this pressure difference was really only realized at 25+psi manifold boost. The lower the boost, the less the difference should be.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Do you have a pre TB MAP sensor to show a before/after difference? That should be where the big difference is gonna be.

Jeff

Edit: I have seen up to 3 psi difference in pre to post TB. Problem is, my pre TB MAP sensor is also before my MAF sensor which has the screen and I know is causing some of that extra pressure. Take note though, this pressure difference was really only realized at 25+psi manifold boost. The lower the boost, the less the difference should be.

Ive got a nipple on my IC pipe right before where the coupler meets the TB..I can route that to the map sensor and get readings for you? I'll do whatever you say if I have the hardware to do it. :)

Ill get pictures also...

[kywhitelightning]

That's a perfect place to take a reading. I assume you will still be logging manifold pressure as well. Both need to be logged at the same time. There will be a little bit of skew from logging rates but we can certainly make heads or tails of it once you capture it.

Now go out and get some data for us. You were talking on the other site about cranking her up a bit anyway. Do some low boost pulls ~14psi, mid boost pulls ~20psi, and then crank it ~25psi. This will show how well your stock TB does or doesn't do. Once you start seeing pressure differences between pre and post TB, you are begining to lean on the wall.

That will give you good baselines for the stocker.

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

OK a question....Ive got 1 map sensor which is currently getting readings from the intake manifold right post the TB...

How will I get readings from preTB to postTB with 1 sensor?

[kywhitelightning]

You need 2. I use my MAF Translator to log the pre TB MAP sensor and Evoscan logs the IM MAP sensor.

You could pick up a Translator and ditch those stock pipes like you always wished AND do some testing for us. Win, win, win!!!

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

You need 2. I use my MAF Translator to log the pre TB MAP sensor and Evoscan logs the IM MAP sensor.

You could pick up a Translator and ditch those stock pipes like you always wished AND do some testing for us. Money Money Money!!!

Jeff

Edited that for ya...;)

Only reason I haven't jumped on spending the $200+ on a MAFT is because I'm holding out on the potential 'better' solution that's been proposed...Otherwise I would've gotten the MAFT along with the new setup.

You think if I do one pull with the MAP source preTB and one postTB that would give us the results we need? Either way, I'm going to have before/after VD numbers. :)

[kywhitelightning]

If IM boost numbers are the same I got a PayPal dollar that says power will be the same. The TB upgrade will only make life easier for the turbos by running them at a lower PR.

My opinion is that the data needs to be captured at the same time. It may be valid but you can't prove that as it'll happen on two seperate occasions. If you want I will send you my second map sensor and then you can flash a table in for it in place of your Wb. Then your cheap ass won't need to buy anything.

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

bahahaha...LMAO...:D

[Fakepower]

Nomiezvr4, could you post up some more pictures of the S90 Throttle body bolted to the plenum.... specifically I'd like to see it with everything bolted to it like the dashpot, FIAV, IAC, etc.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I'll do whatever the hell you guys want...:D besides spend more money...muahahaha..;)

Just got the email that my TB has been SHIPPED! Carbide bit is ready to port the inlet of the manifold..

[NOMIEZVR4]

ladies and gents...67646764

[NOMIEZVR4]

6765

Testing will probably begin next week...in the meantime i need to get some baseline numbers for you fellas...:)

[CoopKill]

Nice!!! PLEEZ document all that is needed to run....

[NOMIEZVR4]

Its a bolt on unit...I will document everything don't worry.

[CoopKill]

I was just wondering about IAC, Etc., or if it gets deleted, and so on.

[futurevr4man]

My stuff is supposed to be done soon. I have been keeping in touch with Von but his welder is backed up currently.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Hey please post before/after results too...IDK when I'll be able to get my hands on a plenum but it would be great if you could get us some data in the meantime..

[TurboSinceBirth]

I was just wondering about IAC, Etc., or if it gets deleted, and so on.

All of the sensors bolt up from our cars - FIAV, IAC, TPS, etc. It even has a BISS adjustment screw and also another screw to adjust where the throttle plate closes. It's literally a factory replacement only bigger and stronger.

[CoopKill]

Baddassky

Sent from the Man Cave!

*\( ^o^ )/*

[GTOJOE]

Looks awesome. Hope the seals are better quality than the cx racing one.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[TurboSinceBirth]

Looks awesome. Hope the seals are better quality than the cx racing one.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

They are. They actually use a seal not a bearing. DSM guys have ran 40+ psi through this throttle body. Check it out on the forums! I already pressure tested mine to 30 psi since that's all I plan to run and there were no leaks. Had it not I wouldn't have considered it as a viable option. I can't guarantee the S90 knockoffs have good seals for high pressure. The shafts aren't billet on them plus the machining marks are rougher so I'm sure they cut corners on the seals.

[Fakepower]

turbosincebirth, do you have one of these s90 throttle bodies installed on your 3/S? which one (70mm or 74mm), and what are your impressions? Could you post some pictures?

[TurboSinceBirth]

turbosincebirth, do you have one of these s90 throttle bodies installed on your 3/S? which one (70mm or 74mm), and what are your impressions? Could you post some pictures?

I installed it on my intake but I don't have the car running. My engine and transmission are currently out. The transmission is going out for a rebuild tomorrow pending how expensive it is if I need much more than 3rd gear to be fixed. A spare intake manifold is being extrude honed right now to 67-68mm depending on how much thickness the machinist determines he needs to keep for the wall thickness. It'll taper down from the opening some but it'll help for some comparisons. I need to get another map sensor because I only have one post throttle body.

I picked the 70mm throttle body because my intercooler piping is 2.75" which will be right inline with the 70mm opening. Most aftermarket kits come with 2.75" not 3" intercooler piping. If I had 3" intercooler piping I would have gone with the 74mm throttle body. There's no reason to go bigger on it that your intercooler piping since the pipe would be the smallest restriction in the system. Nomie will have some testing done before I get my car back together. I'm going out of town late next week for work and won't be back until mid June so everything will be on hold.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Jeff is sending me another map sensor so I will have pre/post TB pressure data for everyone.

[Ange]

I installed it on my intake but I don't have the car running. My engine and transmission are currently out. The transmission is going out for a rebuild tomorrow pending how expensive it is if I need much more than 3rd gear to be fixed. A spare intake manifold is being extrude honed right now to 67-68mm depending on how much thickness the machinist determines he needs to keep for the wall thickness. It'll taper down from the opening some but it'll help for some comparisons. I need to get another map sensor because I only have one post throttle body.

I picked the 70mm throttle body because my intercooler piping is 2.75" which will be right inline with the 70mm opening. Most aftermarket kits come with 2.75" not 3" intercooler piping. If I had 3" intercooler piping I would have gone with the 74mm throttle body. There's no reason to go bigger on it that your intercooler piping since the pipe would be the smallest restriction in the system. Nomie will have some testing done before I get my car back together. I'm going out of town late next week for work and won't be back until mid June so everything will be on hold.

doesn't the throttle plate and pin take away some area in the throttlebody?

[fastfalcon94]

doesn't the throttle plate and pin take away some area in the throttlebody?


It definitely does. That was part of my reason for going q45 even though it's slightly bigger than my 3" IC piping. I never measured it though to figure out exactly how much at WOT.

[TurboSinceBirth]

doesn't the throttle plate and pin take away some area in the throttlebody?

It does but on the S90 it's machined flat to reduce the area. I can do some measurements later.

[Fakepower]

Any updates ? Thinking about ordering a 74mm (3" y-pipe), would love to see the s90 installed with some pictures. hint pics!

[NOMIEZVR4]

Yeah...good progress. I got the second MAP sensor from Jeff just today in the mail...wired it in already. All thats left is calibration. I was hoping to do some preliminary data pulls tonight but it got late.

Tomorrow I will calibrate the MAP, change the oil and do some VD pulls. Then I'm gonna pull the TB off, port the plenum, replace the TB and get some after data. Should be productive in the next few days...stay tuned. :)

I'll snap pics along the way...

[Disrupter]

Good luck!

[NOMIEZVR4]

OK...MAP calibrated, oil changed...off to fill up and do some pulls. :)

[NOMIEZVR4]

Just got back from doing 10lb and 14lb pulls...both maps showing identical data. Logs and VD charts to be uploaded soon...will try for 20+psi pulls tonight..hopefully the higher boost pulls may show a difference in pressure...

[kywhitelightning]

Looked at logs Nomie sent tonight and it looks like the stock TB is good to 23-24psi. Pre and post TB MAP readings were still the same at 600+WHP!!!!

He also mentioned looking for vacuum in the pre-turbo pipes and found none. He can elaborate more when he gets back on here.

Jeff

Edit: He'll get back to us after he cleans his shorts, lol.

[fastfalcon94]

This was on stock TB, stock plenum, and 3" IC pipes?

[NOMIEZVR4]

Yes. Stock TB, slightly ported upper plenum(gasket matched)...my cold side IC pipe appears to be 3" also...I never measured it but Im pretty certain its 3".

As far as the power is concerned, I wouldn't be too hung up on the numbers...I wasn't able to find a suitable stretch of road to do consistent 3rd gear pulls to 7000+RPM's on so the numbers may be inflated a bit..I did attempt to do the pulls on the flattest portions of the freeway possible but just FYI...:)....

Iv'e got a little strip by my shop which I can get most of 3rd gear done, I will use that as the baseline for before/after power pulls however.

Last nights data was more to speculate if there is a pressure difference pre/post TB.

The other thing I wanted to test was whether the intake bubble/pipes creates a vacuum underboost. During last nights testing I hooked up a vac/boost gauge to the bubble using adapters and did some pulls and didn't see the needle move from zero...take that for whatever its worth. I am planning to get a MAFT Gen II so I do hope to do some before/after data for that too...:D

Also, at 25psi boost I was experiencing spark blowout. This is despite changing the ROM settings per Gregs advice for the dwell setting and one other table. I will attempt to hotwire the coils and do a few more 25lb pulls.

[fastfalcon94]

I'm curious exactly what Jeff is looking it. Is it just a spreadsheet with rpm/boost/pre-TB map sensor/post-TB map sensor. And the map numbers match up until 23psi in which case the pre-TB map sensor starts reading higher?

[NOMIEZVR4]

Let me help you guys out....:p

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/StockTBPulls_zpsd776b172.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/StockTBPulls_zpsd776b172.jpg.html)

The 540hp pull is more like 520hp honestly IMO...the rest of them seem legitimate to me. All pulls corrected with temperate, vehicle weight and baro conditions.

[NOMIEZVR4]

And here is the datalog for one pull...notice how mapscaled and map sensor 2 are showing similar boost pressures...map2 is preTB mapscaled is postTB

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/LOG_zps205dea3a.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/LOG_zps205dea3a.png.html)

[fastfalcon94]

the spreadsheet helps. I would re-arrange the map columns so pre would be on the left and post would be on the right:) Rows 83/86/87 though are interesting. Still at full throttle. I'd expect the pre numbers to be a little higher than the post. If you ignore them, rows 84/85 would seem to suggest what Jeff states. The timing advance may have something to do with it. I'm definitely running more timing than you.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I should've posted a redline pull but uptop near 7000RPM's I'm at 20* advance...which reminds me of 2 things...

number 1..I forgot to post my timing map. I"ll do that right now...AFR was Hi' 11's...this is with e85 FYI

number 2..I recently made some more 'conservative' changes to my timing map. I pulled out a bunch of timing before peak TQ...(upto t 5*)im at single digits as you've probably guessed by the datalog. However after peak tq(5000RPMs) I aggressively(relatively speaking...:p) ramp up to 21* by 7500 rpms. Funny thing is , I haven't lost a whole bunch of spool/TQ because of the lack of timing either...I'm deathly afraid of spinning a bearing so I'm definitley treading with caution. Ive got plenty of boost to throw at it though...Ive got an o-ringed block so coolant push shouldn't be an issue I hope...Chris Hill was able to make ~700 without headlift fix and no coolant push with an o-ringed block

Also do you know how I can just view the items datalogged and not every single column in excel? I always have to merge the empty columns together to get rid of all the empty space...

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/WP_20140522_005_zpsb91823ce.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/WP_20140522_005_zpsb91823ce.jpg.html)

[kywhitelightning]

Let me help you guys out....:p

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/StockTBPulls_zpsd776b172.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/StockTBPulls_zpsd776b172.jpg.html)

The 540hp pull is more like 520hp honestly IMO...the rest of them seem legitimate to me. All pulls corrected with temperate, vehicle weight and baro conditions.

Yeah, I just plugged the log into VD and it spit out like 671WHP. I assumed there was room to guess it was over 600 but I didn't correct anything. The furthest I have seen corrected and uncorrected be off was 75.

In any event, keep the data coming Nomie. You are helping a BUNCH of people out with this info.

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

Thanks for pointing that out Jeff..I have the JDM gear(4.11 final drive) which changes the numbers quite a bit. :)

Funny thing is, car didn't feel terribly fast...guess 500ish WHP just aint doin the trick anymore...;)

[NOMIEZVR4]

So whats the verdict...the 70mm TB shouldn't net any significant gains?? Time to bench race fellas...:D

[fastfalcon94]

I'm using aem so my timing map uses a different kind of load. I also have 0 experience with e85 up here in VT. I don't have Ray's headlift fix either and my block wasn't o-ringed. I've hit 27psi so far with no problems, but I've backed it down to 24-25 right now while I slowly bump up my timing. I wasn't really seeing an increase in power with the more boost I ran either. What turbos are you running? 3.0L block?

[NOMIEZVR4]

Built 3.0 with TD05 EVOIII 16g's

Its also cammed (DR Street/Webcam 150e) and has ported heads.

[CoopKill]

I see airflow at 2900~. WHat is the reported wall for the oem maf? Could that have been contributing to the blowout?

[Jimvr4]

Nomie, great job in documenting your progress throughout your car's evolution. I went back at read your threads from last couple of years (19T config) and you thought your boost spike was due to the shimmed WRX wastegates and their stiffer springs. Are you still seeing this? I have the DRWeldin WG with 12 psi springs and I'm pretty sure they are behind my boost spike. Also are you still running the EVO MAF in draw through? I talked to Matt M and he said it was a restriction above like 450 WHP. How far did you push your pump 93 tune?

[NOMIEZVR4]

Coop, I've got an EVO maf...I'm not sure what the HZ limit is...I should find out soon(if there is a limit) if the coil hotwire fixes my blowout problem.

Jim, thank you. I just threw a Hallman MBC on the car last night and my WGA's (stock TD05) are also shimmed...I shimmed them on purpose. It seems though the more boost I attempt to run, the bigger my spike is. The MBC however is only temporary. I wanna jump on the ECUBoost bandwagon and provide more data(hint: Brett mod my ECU..!! :D) but as of now, I've got a stock SL ecu which doesn't have the hardware circuitry to support ECUBoost. I hate the fact that boost tapers down towards redline...I want to have my boost curve something like below(EVO8 FPBlack) where boost holds steady or increases towards redline. Ideally, I would like my hp to climb steadily towards 7000RPM at a 40* angle..:D..hahaha Next year if funds permit I would love to provide data for an XM Intake Manifold too...

http://tscomptuned.net/_images/dyno-evo8.9/mike/smooth2.jpg

Still EVO MAF, in draw thru...unfortunately...I stopped wasting my time with 93 pump right around 400whp...:p

[Jimvr4]

Coop, I was able to see over 3000 Hz on the stock MAF but I don't think it was very accurate up there. I'm going to change to the EVO MAF and probably revert back to my stock springs in the WG actuators to see if I can kill the boost spike.

Nomie, From your TB test logs it looks like your EVO MAF is not a problem well over 500 WHP on your TD05 setup. I want to go ECU Boost as well but figured I better eliminate the spike before I change the boost method.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Another thing to note, the VD posted above shows a 100ft/lb difference between hp and tq. The car is making 500whp but only stressing the internals with 390lbs of tq...in other words...the way I'm seeing it, we can have a car making bpu 3/s torque figures but possibly make over 500+whp...its what I'm trying to experiment with..it would definitely bring down the number of engine failures I would think...thoughts??


EVO's generally run 3-5* of timing at peak TQ..!

Jim I'm also running stock intake pipes with the EVO maf...

[NOMIEZVR4]

I wouldn't mind experimenting before/after MAFT setup data..if someone*cough*Jeff*cough* wants to lend me their MAFT...;)

It would definitely help to clear up some grey area..Forest stated Mellon made 700+whp with an EVO MAF

[striker2]

The other thing I wanted to test was whether the intake bubble/pipes creates a vacuum underboost. During last nights testing I hooked up a vac/boost gauge to the bubble using adapters and did some pulls and didn't see the needle move from zero...take that for whatever its worth. I am planning to get a MAFT Gen II so I do hope to do some before/after data for that too...:D



It would be interesting to hook up one of the MAP sensors to the preturbo pipes and log it at the various boost pressures as well.

[kywhitelightning]

I wouldn't mind experimenting before/after MAFT setup data..if someone*cough*Jeff*cough* wants to lend me their MAFT...;)

It would definitely help to clear up some grey area..Forest stated Mellon made 700+whp with an EVO MAF

LMFAO!!!!!!!! Honestly, I would if I wasn't trying to scramble to get my pile of parts put on in a hurry.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

It would be interesting to hook up one of the MAP sensors to the preturbo pipes and log it at the various boost pressures as well.

He did.

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

It would be interesting to hook up one of the MAP sensors to the preturbo pipes and log it at the various boost pressures as well.

Yeah I'll do that....I did actually but didn't record the data...just was looking at it on my boost gauge. I can record the data in the log though...ill do it.

[kywhitelightning]

You said you did that already and it didn't pull any vacuum. Am I confused????

Jeff

[CoopKill]

I have a MAFT, and new GM Maf if you would like to play with them for a couple weeks or so...

[NOMIEZVR4]

You said you did that already and it didn't pull any vacuum. Am I confused????

Jeff

No not confused at all. I did it already but didn't record the data in a log. I just merely hooked it up to a boost gauge and watched it as I did WOT pulls. Get it? Now I will merely hook up the 2nd map to the intake bubble and do a few pulls so you guys can see the data in a log.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I have a MAFT, and new GM Maf if you would like to play with them for a couple weeks or so...

I'd be down to try it if people are interested...maybe someone should start a poll or something? I would need your UICP as well if we make this happen..also would need to know type of BOV flange too...

[CoopKill]

This will be in DT, not BT. Trying to avoid BT. I can send the MAFT by itself to get further data on the table if that is what is needed.

[NOMIEZVR4]

This will be in DT, not BT. Trying to avoid BT. I can send the MAFT by itself to get further data on the table if that is what is needed.

Well lets see what the verdict will be and go from there...I really wanna try BT..:D

In the meantime, I'm going to *attempt* to hotwire my coils tomorrow and go from there...Really hoping the hotwire fixes the blowout otherwise I may just have to stay content with 20ish lbs of boost...LOL

[kywhitelightning]

Well lets see what the verdict will be and go from there...I really wanna try BT..:D

In the meantime, I'm going to *attempt* to hotwire my coils tomorrow and go from there...Really hoping the hotwire fixes the blowout otherwise I may just have to stay content with 20ish lbs of boost...LOL

No you won't.

Jeff

[Fakepower]

Nomiez, could you post some pictures of the s90 throttle body installed? what are your impressions of it? I just pressured tested mine stock TB, shaft seals are gone, so its either rebuild or s90. but I'd like some feedback on the s90 .... what do you think of it? Would love some pictures too. Thanks

[mb3000]

IMO a bigger TB allows for more air flow across the engine operation. Easier (more) flow at the same P.R. I don't think it's possible for the boost to be different between pre-TB and post TB at WOT, since the throttle plate is basically taken out of the equation (whatever pressure difference there may be will be equalized).

I believe there are good gains to be had in both larger MAF sensors as well as TB/plenum combos, but I don't think the difference will be able to be seen using pressure sensors. Making easier flow at the same P.R. is a big part of the HP game.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Nomiez, could you post some pictures of the s90 throttle body installed? what are your impressions of it? I just pressured tested mine stock TB, shaft seals are gone, so its either rebuild or s90. but I'd like some feedback on the s90 .... what do you think of it? Would love some pictures too. Thanks

this is all data relevant to the stock throttle body..i haven't installed the s90 yet. This is all 'before' data..s90 should be on next week.

[NOMIEZVR4]

No you won't.

Jeff

game on beotch..;) :D

Justin that's a valid point which I was discussing with my brother today..airflow may increase not necessarily boost.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

IMO a bigger TB allows for more air flow across the engine operation. Easier (more) flow at the same P.R. I don't think it's possible for the boost to be different between pre-TB and post TB at WOT, since the throttle plate is basically taken out of the equation (whatever pressure difference there may be will be equalized).

I believe there are good gains to be had in both larger MAF sensors as well as TB/plenum combos, but I don't think the difference will be able to be seen using pressure sensors. Making easier flow at the same P.R. is a big part of the HP game.

If the throttle body is a restriction there will be pressure drop across it, it is that simple. Otherwise it is not a restriction. same thing with the maf. if the inlet pressure to the maf is the same as after it then there can be no restriction.

[sergechronos]

So long as he already has the S90 though, may not hurt to throw it on and see what happens with a stock manifold. I still think that without an upgraded IM, you wouldn't see any gains from a bigger TB. Even if you port the stock IM opening out, you can't go too far out on the inlet of the manifold and you still would fill the plenum area pretty quickly.

I am looking forward to seeing Turbo's results as well when he does his (as he said he'd do various combinations of stock and ported/aftermarket) to put this one to rest if it matters or not. I think outside of shifting the powerband, it just may not do much for us. That said, this kind of testing solid back to back one at a time testing for TBs, IMs and DT vs BT would be nice to have in one place on a couple different cars to get definite documented evidence to help keep people from wasting money on parts that won't help.

[NOMIEZVR4]

That TB IS GOING ON...lol

I dont care if it doesn't help with making power...I personally believe it still will make power...stock evo's pick up power with a TB upgrade...stay tuned. :)

If we as a community can get together and set something up where we can get an aftermarket plenum or a MAFT setup or whatever combination of parts(or service...shameless plug....ecuboost!) together...and provide testing for the community as a whole, I think that would be awesome...if we can get a vendor in on this that would be the BEST...for example if we propose to XM hey build us a manifold we will use it as a testbed and if it does well it will be an incentive for you to sell XX amount of units.... I know Bill is willing to lend his MAFT, I already have Jeff's MAP..:D, I myself also invested in this s90 TB....instead of speculating, if we can pool our resources and get together to provide results that would be pretty damn cool. Like if someone has a part thats just sitting on the shelf collecting dust, if they could lend it out for testing that would rock....I'm just thinking aloud...if someone is afraid that its too risky, maybe we can setup an escrow account with Alan and put money in a pot or something...IDK...but I know a few people on the board who I trust w/out any doubts who I wouldn't hesitate to give stuff too...

I know im not the guy who will set this type of thing up with all the details, I'm just throwing the idea out there... but I'd be more than willing to test the stuff out...:D

[CoopKill]

Totally agree with the collective help. I'm not sure an escrow account is necessary from my point of view as I wouldn't send anything I could not replace, or do without for a period of time. That is just me, and how I see things. If someone is going to stoop to sketched levels at least it will be shown, and prevent it from happening again by said someone.

Unfortunately there is someone that has lent parts for the greater good, and the loanee has disappeared from the thread with no response to my last bump. Unsure what happened there as I thought he was a trustable member. He might have had conversation via pm about it, but I have not heard this to be.

[TurboSinceBirth]

I should've posted a redline pull but uptop near 7000RPM's I'm at 20* advance...which reminds me of 2 things...

number 1..I forgot to post my timing map. I"ll do that right now...AFR was Hi' 11's...this is with e85 FYI

number 2..I recently made some more 'conservative' changes to my timing map. I pulled out a bunch of timing before peak TQ...(upto t 5*)im at single digits as you've probably guessed by the datalog. However after peak tq(5000RPMs) I aggressively(relatively speaking...:p) ramp up to 21* by 7500 rpms. Funny thing is , I haven't lost a whole bunch of spool/TQ because of the lack of timing either...I'm deathly afraid of spinning a bearing so I'm definitley treading with caution. Ive got plenty of boost to throw at it though...Ive got an o-ringed block so coolant push shouldn't be an issue I hope...Chris Hill was able to make ~700 without headlift fix and no coolant push with an o-ringed block

Also do you know how I can just view the items datalogged and not every single column in excel? I always have to merge the empty columns together to get rid of all the empty space...

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/WP_20140522_005_zpsb91823ce.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/WP_20140522_005_zpsb91823ce.jpg.html)

There's a box in evoscan above the logged items you can check. It says "Display checked items only" and will only export those items to excel. It's right there in front of you and I had forgotten about it so don't feel bad if you've passed over it a bunch of times. It's easy to get to but a forgotten feature sometimes. There's a screenshot in Greg's how to tune a 3S thread that shows it.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I use that feature...but when I open the excel, it shows all the empty columns....anyhow...

SHE LIVES!!! COIL HOTWIRE is done...!:D

I will pull it out tonight for a few test pulls...if all is well, stock TB will be removed tomorrow and monday s90 goes on...shawzy44 I know your'e lurking..I'll get your TB out to you as soon as I can. :)

[NOMIEZVR4]

Misfire is gone! :livid:

Call me crazy but the exhaust sounds noticeably louder under WOT...

[CoopKill]

Well if thay are all firing I would hope ot would be louder.

Sent from the Man Cave!

*\( ^o^ )/*

[Jimvr4]

I use that feature...but when I open the excel, it shows all the empty columns....anyhow...

Yep. I recorded a macro to eliminate all the unused columns and saved it. Then when I import a new CSV file I load the old excel log with the macro and I can run the macro on the new file.

[CoopKill]

Share that macro?

Sent from the Man Cave!

*\( ^o^ )/*

[striker2]

evoscan puts the items in the CSV file in the order they appear in the list when logging. if you want certain items at the front in the spreadsheet all you have to do is move them to the top of the list (drag and drop) in evoscan.

[NOMIEZVR4]

evoscan puts the items in the CSV file in the order they appear in the list when logging. if you want certain items at the front in the spreadsheet all you have to do is move them to the top of the list (drag and drop) in evoscan.

thanks so much

[vr4tune]

This is one on the best active threads on this forum. I look forward the updates daily. I plan on getting one of these s90 throttle body's in the future and appreciate the research and testing you have done. Our setups are a lot a like other than I'm using an AEM series 2 in speed density.

I also wanted to go back and comment on the idea of testing blow through. I have yet to see or read about a car that has ran well in all weather conditions using blow through. I would encourage you to continue to use draw through over blow through. I think a maft with a GM maf in draw through on chrome is the way to go for the best reliable performance.

[Jimvr4]

evoscan puts the items in the CSV file in the order they appear in the list when logging. if you want certain items at the front in the spreadsheet all you have to do is move them to the top of the list (drag and drop) in evoscan.

Thanks. Sounds like an even better solution :)

[NOMIEZVR4]

Maybe something of interest to you guys...look at the drastic difference in timing but also look at the power curves...

current timing map datalog
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/td05log_zpsbb67ccd3.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/td05log_zpsbb67ccd3.png.html)

stock timing map datalog-td04 19T..i believe this was my HL wheels too...
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/22lbdatalogtd04_zpsab15f593.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/22lbdatalogtd04_zpsab15f593.png.html)

Green is TD05--almost 5-6* of difference in thick of the data...yet no drastic loss in power, spool or tq....just trying to point out that all that timing before peak tq wasn't doing much in terms of power/tq/spool....I didn't have a map sensor back then but td04's were at 22lbs boost..td05 boost is 24 spike tapering to 20..also the reason I'm making this comparison is not to start a td04 vs td05 debate, the thing is back when I had td04's I was utilizing the stock map...with my tdo5's ive made it a lot more conservative and dont plan to mimic the stock map anymore.
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/22lbtd04vstd05_zps9acc03ff.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/22lbtd04vstd05_zps9acc03ff.jpg.html)

[NOMIEZVR4]

vr4tune, thanks for the compliment...I'm glad I can give back to the community.

About your comment on BT, Jeff has had good success running MAFT in BT...furthermore, AdamVR4 stated he picked up 3-5mph going from DT to BT @12Xmph...thats a lot of power at that power level!

[kywhitelightning]

BT>DT for peak power.

DT>BT for driveability.

They'll both perform well for nearly 100% of this board but, there is a difference when pushed. It's much easier for a turbo to push air than it is for it to pull it. That's why cars at elevation have such reduced power vs us spoiled brats near sea level and the big reason there is such a thing as a correction factor on dyno's. It is supposed to level the playing field even though it is a hypothetical calculation. Uncorrected is what you will actually feel, not corrected.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

Maybe something of interest to you guys...look at the drastic difference in timing but also look at the power curves...

current timing map datalog
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/td05log_zpsbb67ccd3.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/td05log_zpsbb67ccd3.png.html)

stock timing map datalog-td04 19T..i believe this was my HL wheels too...
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/22lbdatalogtd04_zpsab15f593.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/22lbdatalogtd04_zpsab15f593.png.html)

Green is TD05--almost 5-6* of difference in thick of the data...yet no drastic loss in power, spool or tq....just trying to point out that all that timing before peak tq wasn't doing much in terms of power/tq/spool....I didn't have a map sensor back then but td04's were at 22lbs boost..td05 boost is 24 spike tapering to 20..also the reason I'm making this comparison is not to start a td04 vs td05 debate, the thing is back when I had td04's I was utilizing the stock map...with my tdo5's ive made it a lot more conservative and dont plan to mimic the stock map anymore.
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/22lbtd04vstd05_zps9acc03ff.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/22lbtd04vstd05_zps9acc03ff.jpg.html)

No map data on TD04 makes this a not so good comparo. The TD04 could have spiked to 22 and fell off the 17-18 for all we know like the current setup does.

Jeff

Edit: Plus that 2psi difference peak, which favors the TD05, still nets it less TQ than the TD04 with some timing.

[vr4tune]

vr4tune, thanks for the compliment...I'm glad I can give back to the community.

About your comment on BT, Jeff has had good success running MAFT in BT...furthermore, AdamVR4 stated he picked up 3-5mph going from DT to BT @12Xmph...thats a lot of power at that power level!

Do you have links? I must have missed those threads, and I agree that 3 to 5 mph is a good power bump. All I have heard dozens of time is how BT will run good one day and horrible the next. If there is a trick to get BT to run well it is a well kept secret not shared often.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Maybe Adamvr4 can post himself...

[familyMAN]

Subbed.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Anyone have experience with controlling boost spikes with reduced timing? Thinking of trying that today...

Did a few pulls yesterday with the coil dwell settings changed back to stock..misfires returned. ..:) im definitely reverting the changes back and hoping to install s90 today.

Imo I think I will pickup 10-12whp...

[familyMAN]

You need better boost control to control boost spikes. I hear ECU controlled boost works well;)

Reducing timing just reduces the tq, not the spike.

[NOMIEZVR4]

You need better boost control to control boost spikes. I hear ECU controlled boost works well;)

Reducing timing just reduces the tq, not the spike.

Oh trust me, Ive been trying to setup my ECUboost since last year...not sure if FlashECU is going to meet my needs though..I'm gonna have to cough up another ~200 to have my ECU redone. Plus no SD yet either....

[NOMIEZVR4]

Hey fastfalcon94...how much will it cost to fab up a plenum like yours? I can send you the runners...I'd really like to get some before/after numbers for a plenum/TB

[mb3000]

Oh trust me, Ive been trying to setup my ECUboost since last year...not sure if FlashECU is going to meet my needs though..I'm gonna have to cough up another ~200 to have my ECU redone. Plus no SD yet either....

You made the TD05 jump, now it's time to grab an AEM S2!

[NOMIEZVR4]

You made the TD05 jump, now it's time to grab an AEM S2!

$$$$.....its pricey...maybe next year...

[NOMIEZVR4]

I went out on sunday to do some pulls by my strip but it was infested with cops. Probably wont get any data till this weekend :(

I'm also changing up the plan somewhat. For the sake of reselling my polished IM, I don't think its a good idea go hog it out..soooo....for the time being I will post up data with just the new TB with unported manifold. IMO I think its also going to be useless like many of you are thinking but I have something better in the works if everyone just remains patient. :)

[sergechronos]

Patient? That was never part of the fine print on these forums. I want a refund.

At any rate, any data is good data

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[NOMIEZVR4]

Patient? That was never part of the fine print on these forums. I want a refund.

At any rate, any data is good data

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

if you connect 1 and 1 together in my last post you will understand where this is headed...;)

[fastfalcon94]

Hey fastfalcon94...how much will it cost to fab up a plenum like yours? I can send you the runners...I'd really like to get some before/after numbers for a plenum/TB

Mine isn't even finished yet. I have the rough dimensions online somewhere of the pieces we cut out but I had to modify a few slightly. I plan on redoing the diagram with the new dimensions when all is said and done. It's tacked together and partially welded right now. My friend just hasn't finished it. Partly because he knows I won't be trying it until later this summer. He's moving back home in a few days though which is 3 houses down from me so I'm sure I can bug him to get it done.

Also I am using aem v2 right now and no regrets.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Hey thanks for posting, I appreciate it.

All this testing and cranking the boost up especially is making me thirsty for a real intake manifold...I really think a decent plenum will really uncork some topend power...

[NOMIEZVR4]

Made some more minor changes to my timing map...:p I can't leave it alone...hahaha...

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/map_zpsd26ec1e2.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/map_zpsd26ec1e2.png.html)

I plan to retard timing even more during spool up and before peak TQ...kinda simulate what EVO's do...and for the record....I'm not planning on cranking up the timing past 22* up top...thats as agressive as it will get. Only thing now is to crank up the boost.

[futurevr4man]

why the jump from 7 to 11 then back to 9? do you never hit those cells?

[Jimvr4]

Does it make sense to have the same timing from 160 all the way to 320 load?

[mb3000]

why the jump from 7 to 11 then back to 9? do you never hit those cells?

Timing reduced where he is making peak torque most likely. His numbers are pretty conservative IMO. I love how much power he is making with this map though!


Does it make sense to have the same timing from 160 all the way to 320 load?

Yes, that's how I had my tune setup. Basically from whatever psi 160 is to "sky is the limit" psi of 320 he is keeping his timing the same. I did it to eliminate a variable when I was cranking up the boost. I'm sure he has his own reasons.

[NOMIEZVR4]

why the jump from 7 to 11 then back to 9? do you never hit those cells?

well...here is a log that I took going WOT from 3000 to 7000+ RPM's...you can map trace 2byteECU load and timing manually...but I've done that in the screenshot below...
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/map_zps598e6a57.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/map_zps598e6a57.png.html)

And here is what the ECU load translates to while going WOT from 3k to 7k...so yeah it never hits those columns...I guess its not a bad idea to just make it all conservative...EDIT: I went ahead and made the 11* cells 9*
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/map_zps0da5a213.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/map_zps0da5a213.png.html)

Anything else that anyone else is seeing that I'm not? Keep in mind, I'm by no means an expert!

[NOMIEZVR4]

Does it make sense to have the same timing from 160 all the way to 320 load?

Well I'm sure you know this but anything generally past 100 load usually indicates positive boost pressure...Well I have slightly bigger laggier turbos than the avg 3/s so usually by 160ish load I know there is no way in hell its not going to be in boost so like MB stated, its just to keep a set variable...

[NOMIEZVR4]

Interesting thread from EVOM...its a little old but still has good information..

Which brings more power? - evolutionm.net (http://forums.evolutionm.net/ecuflash/527632-brings-more-power.html)

Thoughts? I would definitely be interested in juggling with timing/boost and seeing what the results end up being...

More techo babble...since I'm still undecided on what to do...stay with a MAF or experiment with MAFT...

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/1901/Compressor-Efficiency-and-More.aspx

[kywhitelightning]

The second article already had all the questions answered. Buy DR750's, lol.

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

Td05 > td04...

chump...

;)

Also been thinking...the stock rear turbo intake pipe has a nipple fitting right near the inlet of the turbo...I'll stick the vacuum line on there as opposed to on the bubble...

[NOMIEZVR4]

Ok...here it is. Official Baseline Final pull for stock TB. Corrected.

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/StockTBFinal_zpsb31c93ab.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/StockTBFinal_zpsb31c93ab.jpg.html)

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/StockTBFinalLog_zpsa369841a.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/StockTBFinalLog_zpsa369841a.png.html)

Tomorrow I will swap and this thread will come to a conclusion. :)

EDIT: Don't mind my trims...I know they are off...I'm doing some 'editing' for certain tables. Also with this pull I can conclusively say that the last pull on the freeway(541hp) was an outlier and inflated. This pull is more inline with the 495hp one...

I tweaked the timing map from last times runs on the freeway also FYI

[Disrupter]

I also have a gm maf and Maft that I am currently not using if you need for testing purposes.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I also have a gm maf and Maft that I am currently not using if you need for testing purposes.

Hey thanks so much for the offer but I've got it taken care of. :)

I will be starting a new thread soon with before/after MAFT results...:D

[mb3000]

Can't wait to see the results.

[NOMIEZVR4]

OK...so problem.

The TPS doesn't fit. I googled it and apparently DSMers didn't have any issues with the TPS fitting nothing that google revealed at least....I cross checked the TPS sensors for a 95 vr4 and a 98 gsx...part numbers are the same. what do?

[NOMIEZVR4]

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/WP_20140530_008_zpsaf82fb7a.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/WP_20140530_008_zpsaf82fb7a.jpg.html)

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/WP_20140530_007_zps18b6b017.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/WP_20140530_007_zps18b6b017.jpg.html)

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/WP_20140530_005_zps164868cf.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/WP_20140530_005_zps164868cf.jpg.html)

[NOMIEZVR4]

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/WP_20140530_009_zpsa6056f6b.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/WP_20140530_009_zpsa6056f6b.jpg.html)

[NOMIEZVR4]

OK...solution via dsmtuners...

You're not supposed to put the TPS in the holes...were supposed to put it so the two tabs push the TPS sensor tabs...phew!

[Toni]

Ahh yup! I was looking at your pics and was confused why it wouldn't work. Easy fix!

[NOMIEZVR4]

ready for install...but now I gotta go run some errands...lol

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/WP_20140530_010_zpsf9d0f914.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/WP_20140530_010_zpsf9d0f914.jpg.html)

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/WP_20140530_011_zps66459e03.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/WP_20140530_011_zps66459e03.jpg.html)

[NOMIEZVR4]

another picture for you fellas...

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/WP_20140530_003_zps4c682347.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/WP_20140530_003_zps4c682347.jpg.html)

[CoopKill]

Do not forget to caliper the plenum side ID of the TB for me.

[Unlogic]

That sure looks like a really nice throttle body, can't wait to see the results.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I'm not expecting much if anything bolting it to the plenum unported.

[sergechronos]

Given how small the plenum is on the factory manifold, I'd wager that upping its size would make a bigger difference with a stock Tb than the s90 with a stock IM.

Still never know what you might find.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[NOMIEZVR4]

Bad news...Throttle body does not fit with a stock plenum. Pictures are uploading but basically the FIAV hits the valve cover which doesn't allow the screws to line up and bolt the throttle body in place. With a FIAV delete and remote IAC, it shouldn't be an issue however. sigh...

plenum spacer will work too...but then you have to also buy different bolts to hold the plenum down...

One other issue I foresee with using a spacer is that the Throttle cable may not work then. Without making any adjustments to it, when I put it in the slot on the s90, the shaft was slightly open. I only have a little bit of slack left on the cable to make it work and it will work if I don't use a spacer..however with a spacer, I don't think the cable will be long enough. ALSO, if anyone intends to keep the FIAV, make sure to get a new gasket for it...parts stores don't have it from what I've seen..napa, AZ, advance...its a dealer part/3sx..

Eric, yea I suppose we can try to contact a vendor to let me use a remote IAC. Anyone have any ideas as to who we should reach out to?

What REALLY sucks is that now my car is not driveable..lol...the weather is so nice out too!!

shamless plug...I'm selling my EVO maf w/pigtail for $55 shipped...someone buy it!!!

[sergechronos]

What about a 1/4" plenum spacer or similar?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[familyMAN]

Contact a supporting vendor that sells remote IAC blocks to, at minimum, let you borrow one.

I guarantee there will be 3S shops making money off YOUR hard work and testing by adding these TBs to their site if your testing is positive.

[NOMIEZVR4]

See how the s90 is a little thicker on the bottom? I've lined them up with the bolt holes...
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/20140531_164005_zpsedc1ce30.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/20140531_164005_zpsedc1ce30.jpg.html)

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/20140531_161756_zps29a82496.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/20140531_161756_zps29a82496.jpg.html)

See how its crooked on the left? Its because of the previous picture...
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/20140531_161826_zps51e0d394.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/20140531_161826_zps51e0d394.jpg.html)
NOTE: amt of throttle cable adjustment left...
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/20140531_161834_zps92a2a3ba.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/20140531_161834_zps92a2a3ba.jpg.html)

Coop..get to work..;) 60mm on the dot...
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/20140531_161654_zpsa4778fc2.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/20140531_161654_zpsa4778fc2.jpg.html)

One more for ya..
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/20140531_161645_zps132e61f6.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/20140531_161645_zps132e61f6.jpg.html)

[familyMAN]

Ok...here it is. Official Baseline Final pull for stock TB. Corrected.

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/StockTBFinal_zpsb31c93ab.jpg (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/StockTBFinal_zpsb31c93ab.jpg.html)

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/StockTBFinalLog_zpsa369841a.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/StockTBFinalLog_zpsa369841a.png.html)

Tomorrow I will swap and this thread will come to a conclusion. :)

EDIT: Don't mind my trims...I know they are off...I'm doing some 'editing' for certain tables. Also with this pull I can conclusively say that the last pull on the freeway(541hp) was an outlier and inflated. This pull is more inline with the 495hp one...

I tweaked the timing map from last times runs on the freeway also FYI

Nice work on that graph and peak tq reducing, engine saving, timing map. Somebody has been following evom stock block dyno/timing maps:D

I'll say it again....ecu boost....that chart could be 600awhp with flatter boost and tq;)

[NOMIEZVR4]

Those guys at evom know what's up..!

I'm gonna plead Brett to hook me up on ecuboost..that will change the ball game. I won't need a 30lb spike to hold mid 20's boost...which is currently completely going against my current strategy of keeping the motor in one piece..

[Gray Haze]

Why not just grind on the FIAV to make it fit?

[NOMIEZVR4]

ehh...Not sure how much I will need to grind before it actually fits...I'm working on a possible solution though.

[Gray Haze]

Well keep in mind when you do an FIAV Block off on a stock TB, you have to grind on the fiav to make it fit.

[NOMIEZVR4]

my supposed solution *should* allow me to keep FIAV and new TB while not grinding anything down...Thanks for the help. :)

[Disrupter]

my supposed solution *should* allow me to keep FIAV and new TB while not grinding anything down...Thanks for the help. :)

Looking forward to the solution. I just picked one up off of dsmtuners. Now I just gotta find a diamante plenum to play with.

[oohnoo]

I got one if you need Frank


Looking forward to the solution. I just picked one up off of dsmtuners. Now I just gotta find a diamante plenum to play with.

[TUFFTR]

This is why I waited and found a stock TB bored out to 65mm. Bolts on and works like stock because it is stock!

[oohnoo]

Looks like they have one now with the FIAV included....

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/images/t_23827_01.jpg

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts (http://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=25292&cat=1428&page=1)

[Fakepower]

Bob, I think that is one of the newer gen EVO7-9 TB's, I don't know if those share the same bolt pattern as the EVO1-3/DSM's.

Edit: opps, I didn't look at the 2nd link before I commented. It clearly says in an EVO7-9 TB. However the above still holds, im not certain those share the same bolt pattern as the early EVO's and the DSM. If the bolt pattern is the same that could potentially be a direct bolt on option.

Edit #2: looks like the TPS could be different as well.

[TurboSinceBirth]

The Evo 8/9 throttle bodies are the same bolt pattern. Look it up on the DSM forums. I've already fitted one before in the past. DSMers use them all the time. The throttle body Bob linked uses the Evo sensors. You would need an Evo TPS and IAC with their respective connectors and pigtail harnesses. It would require splicing into our harness for the Evo plugs. The sensors aren't the same. The 2nd gen DSM sensors are identical to ours. Any 91-99 aftermarket DSM throttle body will have the correct bolt pattern and sensor hook ups we need for our cars.

[GTOJOE]

The TB used by Pete in this build is a late model evo but our ISC fits. The TPS has to be from an evo though. However any aftermarket or even flash ecu should be able to make it work.

Complete Restoration - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f155/complete-restoration-495223/)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/IMG_0766.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/IMG_0766.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/100_2808.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/100_2808.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/100_2811.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/100_2811.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/100_2809.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/100_2809.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/100_2808.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/100_2808.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/IMG_1135.jpg

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/IMG_1137.jpg

[TUFFTR]

Actually that's a great point. Never even considered those. I didn't even think about retrofitting another mitsu TB to work. I was mainly trying to use the factory gear, although correct me I'f im wrong, is there any manual idle bypass on that TB or is like the CXracing TB where you butt the TB open with a screw?

[sketch]

GSP 70mm Aluminum Throttle Body Lancer EVO Evolution VIII IX 8 9 03 07 CT9A | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GSP-70mm-Aluminum-Throttle-Body-Lancer-Evo-Evolution-VIII-IX-8-9-03-07-CT9A-/181211034093?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a3104f1ed&vxp=mtr)

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj244/security123/toysauto/Throttle%20Body/TB_70EVO_01.jpg

[GTOJOE]

Actually that's a great point. Never even considered those. I didn't even think about retrofitting another mitsu TB to work. I was mainly trying to use the factory gear, although correct me I'f im wrong, is there any manual idle bypass on that TB or is like the CXracing TB where you butt the TB open with a screw?

I think you already asked Pete that question. I think it only has the butterfly screw. But double check with Pete.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Gray Haze]

See the screw below the tb entrance above the iac? That's the idle adjust

on the run!

[TUFFTR]

Yep, that's what I thought. Too primitive for me, means everytime you butt the throttle open you need to re-adjust the TPS. Had this issue with the CXRacing TB. When an aftermarket TB has the factory idle bypass and a bypass screw I'll consider it.

[Gray Haze]

No it's on the bottom of the tb, it's a idle adjust like stock

on the run!

[TUFFTR]

No it's on the bottom of the tb, it's a idle adjust like stock

on the run!
well....
shit.
Ah well, I don't think 5mm difference on my NA will keep me awake at night.
Damn. Well, good to know!

[Streamln1]

Subscribed....That's a badass TB, I was just looking at mine tonight thinking of swapping

The fitment problem doesn't look that bad, should be able to be filed down or another idea is to space out the TB from the plenum using a spacer.

[Streamln1]

Who makes this TB? Looks aftermarket too


The TB used by Pete in this build is a late model evo but our ISC fits. The TPS has to be from an evo though. However any aftermarket or even flash ecu should be able to make it work.

Complete Restoration - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f155/complete-restoration-495223/)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/IMG_0766.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/IMG_0766.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/100_2808.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/100_2808.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/100_2811.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/100_2811.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/100_2809.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/100_2809.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/100_2808.jpg (http://s883.photobucket.com/user/Ausgt3/media/Rebuild/100_2808.jpg.html)

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/IMG_1135.jpg

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac34/Ausgt3/Rebuild/IMG_1137.jpg

[sketch]

Who makes this TB? Looks aftermarket too

late model evo

[Streamln1]

Thank you captain obvious but since no one really looked into it that's a full blown motorsports evo 70mm aka not OEM
Found it for 299 online

[Disrupter]

Thank you captain obvious but since no one really looked into it that's a full blown motorsports evo 70mm aka not OEM
Found it for 299 online

Check the dsm and evo forums, I picked up a 70mm s90 tb for 120. Looks brand new.

[Streamln1]

Check the dsm and evo forums, I picked up a 70mm s90 tb for 120. Looks brand new.

Nice, will look around. Looks like the full blown one will fit better though

[TUFFTR]

actually
STM: FULL BLOWN CAST 70MM THROTTLE BODY | EVO VIII-IX | FBMTB-EVO89-70MMC (http://www.streettunedmotorsports.com/parts/full_blown_evo_throttle_body.htm)

[Streamln1]

I do like the s90 better just because it's machined vs cast just purely based on looks and it's about the same price. .how about just using a 1/2" throttle body spacer? I may have to buy one and mess with it myself

[Bloodlust182]

subbed

[Streamln1]

what came of this?

[NOMIEZVR4]

I knew the question would be asked sooner or later. A solution was devised and executed..and the issue has been resolved. However during the same time period I ordered new wheels and I only got 3 out of 4 so the car is currently on jackstands waiting for the last wheel to arrive. Results will be posted when the car is driveable again.

[futurevr4man]

I am still waiting on Von to get mine to me. I guess his welder has him held up

[Fakepower]

what was the solution? pictures !

[NOMIEZVR4]

Everything will be posted in due time. I don't like to hype things up w/out results. :)

[familyMAN]

I know someone that has a set of 1g wheels with new tires for cheap to get you on the road;)

Can't wait to see your results. Car will look sick with the new shoes and should scream with the new setup.

[CoopKill]

Hmmm, someone he has told. Silent he was not!

[familyMAN]

I don't know the specific fix to a TB issue but I can read between the lines in this thread and others to know what's in store;) (maybe a little inside info too:D)

Edit: he swapped in a diesel....no TB:)

[Streamln1]

So in disregard to the performance aspect, I am guessing you used either a plenum spacer or a TB spacer..??

[CoopKill]

Technically both, :suspect:

[vr4tune]

Is this the thing I saw at your house bill?

[CoopKill]

That was an early version of a much better solution. :suspect: :p

[NOMIEZVR4]

oh wow...so some more undercover shits goin on too...dayum

[Streamln1]

Why Such a secret?

[CoopKill]

Mostly playin. Not wanting to give up the ghost till Nomie can get some numbers going one way or the other. Would have had them a week ago if his wheel was not lost in transit.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I'm resisting the urge to hype but a friend is letting me borrow his wheels temporarily.. I'll have numbers next week. :)

[Streamln1]

Revived from the dead,

I have an S90 TB from an EVO8 that's at my shop going through a major rebuild, has no FIAV but I live in AZ, I have no problems with startup without it and I have not had my FIAV in my car for more than a year. The EVO 8 only has IAC and TPS on the S90, so looks like no clearance problems.. I am going to either bore out the stock plenum to match up with it or get a larger plenum. Just have to rewire the IAC, the TPS should be a plug and play as long as its the same voltage range, the IAC out of the evo 8 is also a little better unit than our old clunky ones, faster acting.

I am going to a before and after dyno test to see actual results at 25 or so psi.. I don't think the TB by itself is going to do much for power, but TB+plenum should in theory. I want to use the S90 mostly to delete the FIAV and run the newer / better IAC.

[futurevr4man]

I did end up getting a new throttle body/plenum... but I haven't tried them out yet. In the middle of swapping everything to a new chassis.

But I am taking my sweet time... so probably won't see results till spring or summer :/

[Streamln1]

The evo 8 version of the s90 hits the valve cover too..I'm looking to see if I can machine enough off of it to make it clear

[Bloodlust182]

The evo 8 version of the s90 hits the valve cover too..I'm looking to see if I can machine enough off of it to make it clear

Im not usually an advocate of the plenum spacers, but perhaps that is what would help with clearances with the valve cover?

[ChargerX3]

Interesting thread. Looking at going this direction soon. See a lot of ebay versions going for ~$100 range. No bueno?

[Streamln1]

There are actual s90's going for $150 or so, at least they appear to be legit. I do know the knock off's use inferior parts, may leak etc.

For a plenum spacer, im pretty sure that wont be necessary, im going to see if we can redesign the IAC area a bit to accommodate our cars.

[Streamln1]

On second look, only the ones around $300 on ebay are legit, the other ones are knock offs even though advertised as s90.

Edit - Actually I was looking at the country of MFG, assuming that S90 was US made. They are made in Maylasia, So the ones for $180 or so on ebay appear to be legit..of course being Ebay I could be wrong. The knock off ones usually have a brass colored butterfly valve and not the nice machined aluminum brace.

[Ange]

Revived from the dead,

I have an S90 TB from an EVO8 that's at my shop going through a major rebuild, has no FIAV but I live in AZ, I have no problems with startup without it and I have not had my FIAV in my car for more than a year. The EVO 8 only has IAC and TPS on the S90, so looks like no clearance problems.. I am going to either bore out the stock plenum to match up with it or get a larger plenum. Just have to rewire the IAC, the TPS should be a plug and play as long as its the same voltage range, the IAC out of the evo 8 is also a little better unit than our old clunky ones, faster acting.

I am going to a before and after dyno test to see actual results at 25 or so psi.. I don't think the TB by itself is going to do much for power, but TB+plenum should in theory. I want to use the S90 mostly to delete the FIAV and run the newer / better IAC.
How much can you port stock plenum?

This guy ported a stock plenum to 65mm it seems.

Upper Plenum (http://joeg.3sg.org/upper_plenum.html)

That would make a 15% increase in surface area from stock 60mm opening. Which could be enough to free up restrictions at higher loads.

[Streamln1]

stock is 62mm actually. from the looks of it you could prob go to 68mm to match their smallest TB, by tapering in to the main entry of the plenum right after the flange, theres not much material there so you would likely have to add some material to keep it solid, not sure how pretty that would be honestly. I would say you could safely bore that area out by 2mm or so but I don't think its going to get to 68 with a strait shot.