Oil Pressure Issue

[Hyperfocus]

Hey guys, I have a bit of a problem here. I have a 91 VR4 that's basically stock with just over 110k miles currently. Last night I noticed the red oil dummy-light a few seconds after startup and no oil pressure on the gauge. Immediately shut the engine off, checked the oil level, checked for leaks, and everything was fine. Started the engine up again and eventually gained enough oil pressure to limp her home without risk of damage.

Fast forward to today. I changed the oil and filter just to rule that out completely. While I was down there I made sure there wasn't any torn wires at the OFH causing a false reading. Start up the engine and there's zero oil pressure. Dummy light is on, gauge is flatlined, and the lifters started to tick (brand new Ninja big bore). Pulled the filter back off and it's still empty. So it's apparent that I now have no oil pressure.

Now, before I pull the trigger on a new oil pump and start tearing her apart, is there anything else that could cause this? It's pretty crazy that the oil pump would randomly fail 10k miles before the service interval! Thanks in advance for any help.

[Alex3000gt]

My car spun it's rod bearings at 116,000 miles. I'd investigate the drained oil for metal flakes (glitter appearance).

[J. Fast]

Hey guys, I have a bit of a problem here. I have a 91 VR4 that's basically stock with just over 110k miles currently. Last night I noticed the red oil dummy-light a few seconds after startup and no oil pressure on the gauge. Immediately shut the engine off, checked the oil level, checked for leaks, and everything was fine. Started the engine up again and eventually gained enough oil pressure to limp her home without risk of damage.

Fast forward to today. I changed the oil and filter just to rule that out completely. While I was down there I made sure there wasn't any torn wires at the OFH causing a false reading. Start up the engine and there's zero oil pressure. Dummy light is on, gauge is flatlined, and the lifters started to tick (brand new Ninja big bore). Pulled the filter back off and it's still empty. So it's apparent that I now have no oil pressure.

Now, before I pull the trigger on a new oil pump and start tearing her apart, is there anything else that could cause this? It's pretty crazy that the oil pump would randomly fail 10k miles before the service interval! Thanks in advance for any help.

Plug in a sandwich block to the oil filter housing and a bypass on the oil cooler and turn the engine over by hand into a clean bucket placed under the oil filter housing. As you turn the crank pulley over you'll start to pump oil out of the engine. Check it. If nothing comes out you have a blockage. Also, check and see if the oil pan is dented.

[Hyperfocus]

So are you saying my issue might be from a blockage and not a failed oil pump? Could I just keep the filter off, bypass the cooler, and then try rotating the crank by hand?

[J. Fast]

Yes, if the oil pump is bad it will show itself in that test also. You mentioned the issue began once you upgraded the lifters , or did I interpret wrong?

[Hyperfocus]

No, the lifters were upgraded a bit ago. But they started ticking right after the oil pressure issue started which I'm assuming is from lack of oil flow to the heads.

[futurevr4man]

A spun bearing isn't going to keep oil from getting in the oil filter...

Your pump is either clogged, which I have never heard of, but I guess it's possible? Or your gear flat died, which... again... unless you have been doing some higher rpm pulls and it disenegrated, I doubt.

I'm mainly posting so I can hear what the heck this is lol


P.S. fill your oil filter up with oil from now on when you put it on. The engine will get oil flowing significantly faster.

[Hyperfocus]

A spun bearing isn't going to keep oil from getting in the oil filter...

Exactly. I've been building (and breaking) engines for quite a while and have never seen a spun bearing cause zero oil pressure. I've had bearings completely disintegrate and still had SOME oil pressure.


Your pump is either clogged, which I have never heard of, but I guess it's possible? Or your gear flat died, which... again... unless you have been doing some higher rpm pulls and it disenegrated, I doubt.

I'm mainly posting so I can hear what the heck this is lol

I admit that I usually drive pretty spiritedly, but not to the point of bouncing off the rev limiter like a Honduh. There's really no point with stock engine/turbos anyways, your just making noise and stressing parts IMO. So who knows what the final straw was but I'm still betting the pump is shot. Lets hope it didn't take the rest of the engine with it... :/

[wingnut]

I'm mainly posting so I can hear what the heck this is lol.

Ditto!

[mb3000]

Nothing useful to add, but I am very curious!

[sergechronos]

How long have you owned it? Possibility that the oil didn't even make it to the pan when you added it (from say a blockage in the heads?) Did you actually get 5qts back out of it when you drained it, or was it substantially less?

Valve covers or oil pan ever been off? Possible that maybe you left something in the head when you did the lifters and it's partially obstructing an oil return port? Or maybe the oil pick up area on the pan is dented, or the pick up has come loose from the oil pump and isn't able to lift enough oil?

[Hyperfocus]

Oil is making it to the pan and the pan isn't dented. Undercarriage is flawless with zero leaks whatsoever. The car was very well kept which is why this is such a surprising issue.

Today I finally got around to the testing. No oil flow to the filter housing when turning the engine by hand or briefly with the starter. There's some unflattering noise from the oil pump area when trying to turn over the engine, but no metal particles in the old or new oil so my hopes are still high for the engine health. But there's no doubt I need to pull the pan and oil pump to find out just WTF is going on.

I've just never had an oil pump fail like this so I was hoping maybe there was some small, common issue that I'm not aware of such as a stuck relief valve or something. Obviously I haven't gotten that lucky...

[J. Fast]

don't use the starter anymore K.

open up the oil pump and pull the oil pump gears and reseal the pump housing empty. rent a lift pump and set it up to pull oil from the oil filter feed side from the oil pump to the filter housing. install an inline filter on the suction and feed side of the pump and start pulling vac till you've pressurized the system and are steadily lifting oil from the sump (oil pan). when you start lifting a solid column add about 5 quarts of oil and pull it thru and check the inline filters. if they're clean just change the oil pump and move along. if they're dirty... let's not talk about that scenario because you're pulling the engine bro.

good luck.

[anyonebutme]

if the pump intake pipe cracks or falls off (seen it), boom, no oil pressure at all. if the oil pressure relief jambs open (seen it), boom, little to no pressure at idle. if your center main bearings get smashed you'll also get no oil pressure at idle, have a car out back that suffers from that specific ailment right now. Oil pump gears breaking tend to take the front main seal out at the same time and dump oil all over, but I guess it's possible for the outer gear to come apart and not blow the seal, just never seen it on a 6G.

i personally would just go ahead and pull the pan, it's not a difficult job and will answer a lot of questions immediately. after that it's not a difficult job to remove the oil pump.

[anyonebutme]

don't use the starter anymore K.

open up the oil pump and pull the oil pump gears and reseal the pump housing empty. rent a lift pump and set it up to pull oil from the oil filter feed side from the oil pump to the filter housing. install an inline filter on the suction and feed side of the pump and start pulling vac till you've pressurized the system and are steadily lifting oil from the sump (oil pan). when you start lifting a solid column add about 5 quarts of oil and pull it thru and check the inline filters. if they're clean just change the oil pump and move along. if they're dirty... let's not talk about that scenario because you're pulling the engine bro.

good luck.


By the time he removes the pump to do all that, he would be staring right at the bearings anyways so why bother doing all that nonsense and instead just look at the bearings themselves?

[Boomer3000]

Take abms advice on this, believe me.

Just pull the pan and go from there. If you got lucky no bearings are smashed or even messed up. And you can just replace the pump no probs. if not then welcome to sbc.

[Hyperfocus]

if the pump intake pipe cracks or falls off (seen it), boom, no oil pressure at all. if the oil pressure relief jambs open (seen it), boom, little to no pressure at idle. if your center main bearings get smashed you'll also get no oil pressure at idle, have a car out back that suffers from that specific ailment right now. Oil pump gears breaking tend to take the front main seal out at the same time and dump oil all over, but I guess it's possible for the outer gear to come apart and not blow the seal, just never seen it on a 6G.

i personally would just go ahead and pull the pan, it's not a difficult job and will answer a lot of questions immediately. after that it's not a difficult job to remove the oil pump.

Thank you very much! That answers my main question here. I'm by no means a noob when it comes to cars (especially Mitsu's), just needed some direction to look other than the pump. I'll pull the pan ASAP and let you guys know.

[Hyperfocus]

Update for those curious about the issue- I have good and bad news.

The bad: I finally got some time off work and pulled the pan. Inside I discovered a thick puddle of black sludge which contained large chunks of a decomposing paper towel. Just to clarify, I'm a mechanic by trade so I only use red cotton rags. But while my dignity remains intact, that must mean that crap has been in there for years. :dread: I would have preferred a cracked pickup tube over this...

The good: The oil strainer did it's job well but was obviously blocked as a result. There's was just a few fine particles of bearing material in the pan and no heat marks on the rods/crank. I still plan to replace the oil pump, strainer, and bearings while I have it apart. God knows what they've been through. But on the bright side, this could have been MUCH worse.

[Boomer3000]

Congrats and best of luck!

[Alex3000gt]

Update for those curious about the issue- I have good and bad news.

The bad: I finally got some time off work and pulled the pan. Inside I discovered a thick puddle of black sludge which contained large chunks of a decomposing paper towel. Just to clarify, I'm a mechanic by trade so I only use red cotton rags. But while my dignity remains intact, that must mean that crap has been in there for years. :dread: I would have preferred a cracked pickup tube over this...

The good: The oil strainer did it's job well but was obviously blocked as a result. There's was just a few fine particles of bearing material in the pan and no heat marks on the rods/crank. I still plan to replace the oil pump, strainer, and bearings while I have it apart. God knows what they've been through. But on the bright side, this could have been MUCH worse.

Glad you pulled that pan! Better to catch a bearing issue before they spin.

Yeah it's bad news, but at least you caught it! Let us know how the bearing swap goes. Take pics if you can!

Alex

[sergechronos]

The good: The oil strainer did it's job well but was obviously blocked as a result. There's was just a few fine particles of bearing material in the pan and no heat marks on the rods/crank. I still plan to replace the oil pump, strainer, and bearings while I have it apart. God knows what they've been through. But on the bright side, this could have been MUCH worse.

Might not be a bad idea to replace (or flush) the oil cooler while you're at it. If any of that got past the strainer and filter, oil cooler would've been the next stop. Considering how easy it is to remove it either upgrading it, or flushing it out several times with acetone and coffee filters wouldn't hurt just to be safe.

[J. Fast]

I'd pump the whole system down like I described earlier before you reinstall new oil pump gears and new bearings. Hopefully the filters on the pump are clean. Sucks the condition was passed on. Hopefully there's not metal contamination.

[Alex3000gt]

Might not be a bad idea to replace (or flush) the oil cooler while you're at it. If any of that got past the strainer and filter, oil cooler would've been the next stop. Considering how easy it is to remove it either upgrading it, or flushing it out several times with acetone and coffee filters wouldn't hurt just to be safe.

OP - Post pics if you find anything! Hell, post pics even if you don't! More content on this forum is never a bad thing.

[Hyperfocus]

I do plan to go through everything in that area. Oil cooler, filter housing, etc will all come off and be cleaned just to be safe. I already have a new oil pump, gaskets, etc and bearings on the way. I've yet to check the turbos but if there's any sign of play they'll be pulled and rebuilt. Maybe even upgraded if I can find a decent source of genuine Mitsu comp wheels.

I'll be sure to take some pics too. I haven't gotten even a minute in the shop since the warmest day this week was 0° without windchill. Yesterday was a balmy -10 in the sun. So once I can get under the car without risk of frostbite I'll be sure to update. :)

[Hyperfocus]

Finally got some pics! Oil pump gears were a little worn, but still in one piece. The housing was rebuildable so I decided to rebuild it rather than replace. The pan and sump cleaned up nicely too so those will be reused as well. Turns out the timing belt, pulleys, tensioner, and water pump are all brand new Mitsu stuff which was a nice surprise. So all together the 120k maintenance will be done early, and for just a few hundred bucks. :)

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z391/Wes393/IMG_1860_zpsd192dfdd.jpg (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/Wes393/media/IMG_1860_zpsd192dfdd.jpg.html)

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My Clevite bearings showed up today so those will be going in soon, I'll post some more pics afterwards.

[Hyperfocus]

New rod bearings are in. The old bearings weren't nearly as bad as I expected, but the fine top layer was starting to shed and a few were starting to show copper. So it was definitely time for a replacement.

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z391/Wes393/3KGT/IMG_1878_zps6841e0b8.jpg (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/Wes393/media/3KGT/IMG_1878_zps6841e0b8.jpg.html)

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[mb3000]

Good choice, I was definitely satisfied with my Clevite's

[Hyperfocus]

Good choice, I was definitely satisfied with my Clevite's

IMO, Clevite P-series are the best street bearing you can buy. I ran them in my TSi for years under every form of abuse you can imagine and they were barely polished when I sold it. I killed numerous brand new Holset turbos and never even scratched a Clevite.

[sergechronos]

Thought about going with Clevites, but decided on King bi-metals for now. While they can't withstand as much load, I figured the deeper babbitt layer would help catch any debris that may come through during initial start up and stuff since I had a full rebuild due to metal debris bouncing around the engine.. After this year's light usage, shake down and tuning, I plan to replace them with WPC coated Clevites for long term usage.

I've used Clevites in a handful of other engines (stroked 350 small block, 4.6 mod motor, and a basic 454) and have had numerous other problems and failures, but the bearings still looked pretty much new. Even the mod motor after 40k miles and blowing the motor up, the bearings looked good. This will actually be my first time using King.

[spaceace60]

well worse yet I put a motor in that had less than 30k on it,perfect numbers on compression ect always had super oil pressure sent it to get tuned up ect ect it sat at guys house cpl mos when I went to bring it home motor sounded great but 0 oil psi?(thought it was gauge/wire?)got cpl miles dwn rd and spun middle bearing,towed it home and nxt day fired it up so I could make sure it wasn't just a lifter issue? well it had great oil psi,but it was deff spun bearing so why the temp lack of oil psi is still a guess? it was about 10 degrees the night it lost oil psi? any guess's as im rebuilding it and don't thanks Jim

[spaceace60]

I 2nd this as same issue

[spaceace60]

can anybody recommend a good but cheap solution for replacing an oil cooler as I too am worried about mine being contaminated! I see some on Egay for under a$100 10 or more rows with anodized fitting and braided steel lines ect