my complete BBK conversion using Cayenne S - BREMBO callipers

[stealthTT]

I know that there is another thread about this, but this is my actual own conversion in which I will try to find my way out of it.

the callipers that I bought are from a Porsche Cayenne S - 955 - front are Z18, so they've been designed to use 350x32 for fronts and rears with 330x28 :(
more informations can be found on the other thread about these calipers and their specs.
I dont care at this point of brake distribution, as I will check that later and solve it if necessary with a proportioning valve.

that beeing said, I have followed, in this forum and others also, how others have done conversions by using oem parts.
there are many benefits from doing it this way, instead of buying and spending tons on some branded products that are actually chinese.

So, for the front, after searching over catalogues it all came to: EVO X vs 370Z front rotors, basically 350x32 vs 355x32.

BUT, the 370Z discs have a -5mm offset, than the 3kgt ones, so probably for some of you that wants to use the OEM 18" wheels it will be possible as the calippers will sit inside with more 5mm - will let you know about that as I do have these wheels also here.
The front Nissan 370Z front rotors fit, as it has been done before here: http://www.3sgto.org/3000gt-stealth-gto-related-topics/8667-evo-x-brakes-3-s.html
I didn't received yet the front discs, as this would possible be in the next couple of days.


now, the biggest issue on doing this is with the rear brake rotors and offcourse with the e-brake.
The donour cars for rotors, EVO and 370Z - have 330x22 vs 355x22.

The rear Cayenne calipers are designed to use a 330x28 brake discs, which is a hard to find one.
I've been looking around for the 28mm discs and couldnt find an OEM disc that was designed to be used on rear and be that wide.

So, for the rears I need a 28mm or I can use the 22mm ones?
This is very important, because if I choose to go with a 22 one, I would try to solve the e-brake with oem EVOX parts.

what others did:
on other platforms like vw, audi, etc.. they went with 22 ones and currently live happy - no problems at all, at least not mentioned on forums.

If I decide to go with a 28mm rotor, I will have to go with a front evo7-8-9 rotor which I can find them in 30-32mm width, remove the ebrake components and install a parking valve(or how its called).
I couldnt found any mechanical calipers that will fit over a 22mm(Willwood, brembo). don't know about Audi electrical ones..

next week probably I'll check to see how the complete calliper with pads will seat on a 22mm disc.

[green-lantern]

remove the ebrake components and install a parking valve(or how its called).


This is what I was thinking when I was reading your post. If it gets too big of a PITA use a valve in the line. I had one on my rail buggy and it worked great. Some people might not want a valve showing though, even though thay are small.

[stealthTT]

i don't agree to use the valve as it seems that if you have pushed your brakes hard, high temps, and after that you've parked it and use the valve, when it cools down it will slip. thats what i've read from others that are using this form of parking brake

now, it seem that the wilwood mechanical calipers are the best to use as I could use a custom spacer in order to accomodate a wider than 22mm discs.
they have 2 types of parking calipers

the best one they are selling is this one, as it comes with all the needed brakets, etc..:

http://www.wilwood.com/Images/Caliper/Caliper_Photos-Large/MC4_Mechanical-lg.jpg

Wilwood High-Performance Disc Brakes - MC4 Mechanical Calipers (http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperList.aspx?subname=MC4%20Mechanical)



and these are better as it can take a 35mm disc :)

http://www.ipsco.org/Custom%20Services/Parking%20Brake1.jpg

http://www.ipsco.org/Custom%20Services/Parking%20Brake.htm

[green-lantern]

Don't park on a hill after you beat the shit out of the car http://www.bawcforums.org/vbb/images/smilies/533.gif

[GTOJOE]

Do the EVO rotors have the same offset as the 3/S? I have wanted to fit 2nd gen callipers to the front of my 1st gen GTO but there are no good quality rotors around any-more available locally in that size so my thought was to just make a bracket so my first gen callipers [1st gen and 2nd gen callipers have the same "calliper" but the 2nd gen has longer mounting tabs] will work on an EVO or 370Z rotor. DBA stopped making rotors for the 3/S but still make EVO ones. Alternatively with the 5mm neg offset of the 370Z rotors that might help with wheel fitment and mounting the brackets.

[stealthTT]

Do the EVO rotors have the same offset as the 3/S? I have wanted to fit 2nd gen callipers to the front of my 1st gen GTO but there are no good quality rotors around any-more available locally in that size so my thought was to just make a bracket so my first gen callipers [1st gen and 2nd gen callipers have the same "calliper" but the 2nd gen has longer mounting tabs] will work on an EVO or 370Z rotor. DBA stopped making rotors for the 3/S but still make EVO ones. Alternatively with the 5mm neg offset of the 370Z rotors that might help with wheel fitment and mounting the brackets.

there is one thing the EVO's and 370's are 32mm wide, but I think thats not a problem as if I remember corectlly supercar was selling wider rotors for our cars.
here are the specs for the VR4 2nd gen, 370Z and EVO X ones, as OEM.

3000GT vr-4 2nd gen:
6327

370Z - the 355mm ones, what I've got:
6328

and for the EVO X, I couldn't find a picture like for the upper ones but I have wrote de specifical numbers, just like in the picture.
the good thing on the other hand with the EVO ones is that you dont need to machined them on the center bore as they are the same.

the specs:
Diameter (1)[mm]: 350
Width (H2)[mm]: 32
Center Bore(3)[mm]: 69
Depth(offset) (H4)(mm): 43,7

so vr-4 has a 45mm offset while the evo have 43.7, so they will sit on an outer position that the stock vr-4 ones.
calippers could clear the oem wheels but it's a little bit risky as the OEM wheels are not concave like some aftermarket ones.
If I were you, I would go with the 370Z ones - its safer.

what you can look up for are the EVO6 front rotors also. the picture that I have is for the EVO6, but it seems the 8&9, probably 7 also, have the same specs on them.
6329

I would have went further to help you by testing stock vr4 calipers on my discs, but i dont have oem wheels close to me. what I can tell is that I will test oem wheels once I have my bbk on the car.
hope it helped.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I don't know why someone wanting to do something like this doesn't just build brackets to extend the stock calipers out further. There is nothing really wrong with the stock caliper, it just needs a bigger rotor.

[stealthTT]

I don't know why someone wanting to do something like this doesn't just build brackets to extend the stock calipers out further. There is nothing really wrong with the stock caliper, it just needs a bigger rotor.

if you've asked me I'll answer here short:
first because I've got them sitting arround for pretty long time, the cayenne calipers
second because the 19" volks that I've got will just look silly with stock stealth callipers that have been shaved by stupid previous owner because ricer wheels didn't fit even after he went with spacers.
also because of wheels, cause the rears didnt didnt fit - the rears are too small and hit the wheels even if the wheels are designed to acomodate large brakes.

and the last one, because race factor :)
jk,
now, I really like how they've performed on the 2500kg Cayenne even when I've pushed them hard enough.

and second - why should I invest the same time and money(minus the caliper price) into something that will not be way better than before.
there were some brakets available years ago, afaik, but not anymore
why?
because not so many of us grabbed them.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

There were wide spacer brackets offered by supercar, but I never saw anything that would just move the stock caliper outboard. It would be laughably simple if you were willing to thread the caliper itself (would use a threadsert if you were smart). I could cut one out with a grinder.

I just wish one of these threads would actually end in a completed setup that works. I've probably seen 10 over the last 10 years and never seen one where someone doesn't give up. I hope it works out for you.

[stealthTT]

There were wide spacer brackets offered by supercar, but I never saw anything that would just move the stock caliper outboard

like I said, I thought I have seen something done, didnt knew that it was just a spacer in order to use a wider rotor.


It would be laughably simple if you were willing to thread the caliper itself (would use a threadsert if you were smart). I could cut one out with a grinder

i dont get it? maybe its my bad english again, or I'm not that smart as I thought :)
why should I thread the caliper?
the cayenne ones? for what?




I just wish one of these threads would actually end in a completed setup that works. I've probably seen 10 over the last 10 years and never seen one where someone doesn't give up. I hope it works out for you.

the fronts it seems that are an easy task.
got the front rotors, and I'm very happy as they are way larger than stock ones.

the rears are a different story as I would really like to use the stock e-brake system and till now I couldn't found a car that uses 330x28 and also fit the ebrake system.

on some VW and Audi platforms they are using rears 2008 CL, CLS, S 63 AMG rotors which are the same dimensions as i need, but for the ebrake they use a mechanical caliper also as it doesnt fit.

the e brake calipers that they are using are from Viper, Ferrari and Jaguar R(E, S, etc..) which are kind a hard to find here where I live.

but, I need this done in short time so will see.

[GTOJOE]

I don't know why someone wanting to do something like this doesn't just build brackets to extend the stock calipers out further. There is nothing really wrong with the stock caliper, it just needs a bigger rotor.

This is what I'm talking about above with fitting stock callipers on evo or 370Z rotors. I looked at yhe specs of all rotors above yhe other day. The early evo is only 320mm from memory so not that much bigger than 2nd gen (314mm). This idea was discussed on 3si and even looked into by supercar eng but it was dropped due to lack of interest. Have a spare hub and calliper here to test and fab a bracket but time I don't have lol. I also looked on the supercar eng site for the calliper widening kit they sell but it seems to no longer be available. I think stop widened callipers with the stiffening bolts and 370Z rotors would be as good as any BBK for much less money.

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[fastfalcon94]

The stock calipers are very wide. The face of the caliper sticks out a lot farther than aftermarket ones. I think the difference on mine to the BBK was about 6mm. That is what causes fitment issues for a lot of rims.

[GTOJOE]

That's a major plus for most BBK's. I think with the 370Z rotor sitting back 5mm it will help. The other one I found was the R33/R34 GTR which sits even further back.

Specs of a few I researched. All are 32mm wide except for the 350Z and the R33/34.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/BRAKEDISCROTOR_zps2283962c.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/BRAKEDISCROTOR_zps2283962c.jpg.html)

Vehicle make NISSAN
Vehicle model SKYLINE
Vehicle details R32 GT-R 2.6L TWIN TURBO FRONT VENTED
Dimensions DIA 296 TH 32 A 54 B 68 C 5

Vehicle make NISSAN
Vehicle model SKYLINE
Vehicle details R33/R34 GT-R 2.6L TWIN TURBO FRONT VENTED
Dimensions DIA 324 TH 30 A 53.7 B 68 C 5

Vehicle make MITSUBISHI
Vehicle model LANCER EVO
Vehicle details EVO 9 FRONT VENTED
Dimensions DIA 320 TH 32 A 43.5 B 69 C 5

Vehicle make MITSUBISHI
Vehicle model LANCER EVO
Vehicle details EVO 10 2.0L TURBO AWD (1 PIECE ROTOR) FRONT VENTED
Dimensions DIA 350 TH 32 A 43.9 B 69 C 5

Vehicle make NISSAN
Vehicle model 350Z
Vehicle details Z33 3.5L V6 W/BREMBO CALIPERS FRONT VENTED
Dimensions DIA 324 TH 30 A 49 B 68 C 5

Vehicle make NISSAN
Vehicle model 370Z
Vehicle details Z34 W/PERFORMANCE BRAKES FRONT VENTED
Dimensions DIA 355 TH 32 A 49.2 B 68 C 5
**Notes Alloy Calliper


This kit from Supercar Engineering widens the calliper to suit 35mm rotors. Kit consists of rotors and widening kit. But it's for the stock 2nd gen size.

Supercar Engineering (http://supercar-engineering.com/sc2/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=135)

[fastfalcon94]

With the stock knuckles the rotor can only go so far back. Even if you remove the dust shield the inner hub portion of the rotor will be at risk of hitting the knuckle where the caliper bolts on. When I put my BBK on with my R6 rims it wanted to just barely hit the inside of the rims. One of my ideas was to modify the rotor since it was a 2 piece. I could undo the center hat and have a ring machined out as a spacer to push the rotor surface back farther. However upon inspecting it I noticed I could barely move it at all without hitting the ears on the knuckle for the stock caliper bolts. I'm sure the 2 piece rotors I ahave already sit back a little more than the stock ones did. Hopefully you won't run into that problem. I did get mine to clear with my R6 rims by moving caliper 1mm inward towards the axle nut, and 1mm back wards, but it was so close that you'd have trouble sliding a card through the gap. I went with new rims to be safe.

[Jesters Deadd]

There were wide spacer brackets offered by supercar, but I never saw anything that would just move the stock caliper outboard. It would be laughably simple if you were willing to thread the caliper itself (would use a threadsert if you were smart). I could cut one out with a grinder.

I just wish one of these threads would actually end in a completed setup that works. I've probably seen 10 over the last 10 years and never seen one where someone doesn't give up. I hope it works out for you.

I made an extension bracket for the stock calipers and put 370z rotors on left wheel.
I got a video of it. It looks pretty cool. I had to slightly modify the stock calipers to have them sit closer to the center of the rotor. It was nothing major just some grinding. I got the caliper close enough there was only a mm or two of brake pad overhang. The other issue I had was the stock brake pads don't cover the full friction surface of the 370z rotor. There was probaly .5"-.75" of inner radial friction surface not covered. Also the wheel s I was running wouldn't fit over the set up. I used some 18x9 ssr gt1s and they fit over the set up but knocked the stcick on wheel weights of the inner drum of the wheel.

[GTOJOE]

Pics of the bracket you made? Did it look odd with the extra rotor surface not covered? Was thinking that maybe the earlier evo might be a closer match and still big enough for me (320mm).

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[stealthTT]

so, back on topic, Cayenne Calipers on a 3S :)


The other issue I had was the stock brake pads don't cover the full friction surface of the 370z rotor. There was probaly .5"-.75" of inner radial friction surface not covered.


I'm happy that the TRW brake pads that I've got, are a perfect match so far with the 370Z front rotors.
6330
6331

I have left the wheels, caliper and rotors to a guy here that will make the adapters for the fronts.
will have it done in a couple of days or so.

the rears will be a problem
it will be great if you guys can help me a little....

[stealthTT]

Pics of the bracket you made? Did it look odd with the extra rotor surface not covered? Was thinking that maybe the earlier evo might be a closer match and still big enough for me (320mm).

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the EVO ones that you are talking about it stick out by 1.3mm so it might clear the 18" oem wheels, and they are 320x32mm, so a little bigger and but way wider.
most probably the pads will fit better than on the 370Z ones.

[stealthTT]

about the rears.

i'm about 90% sure I can't find a better fitment than the EVO X ones.
the only problem i have with them is that I need to make a custom spacer for the pads, so that it will fill the -6mm width of the rotors.
as I said the EVO uses a 22 mm width while the cayenne uses a 38mm one, so that I will not care anymore about that.
using a 22mm one will offer also a wider range of e-brake calipers range.
I'm still looking for the brembo one, and hopefully I will get the right one soon.

[GTOJOE]

Did you mean 28mm rear rotor? Is the inside diameter of the brake drum on the evo that much bigger than the 3/S?

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[stealthTT]

yes, I'm in need for rears that are 28mm wide and 330 at least.
the EVO X(330) are 22mm wide.

about the brake drums:

the 1st gen vr-4, as far as I could find out it has 191 mm
these are close to what the EVO X use, as they have 189 mm brake shoes.

the main thing is this:
IF I will use the EVO VI, VIII, IX or X ones, all the metal dust protections that are in the back of the rotor needs to be removed, as these rotors are placed -7mm, and for that will for sure means that I will need to have some custom brackets for the ebrake cables, no dust protection at all, and also to get first gen e brake pads - that if the hardware is the same on both generations(didn't check that).

now, i have a 2nd gen US model, which is a Stealth, and these are different:
2nd gen US models uses 170(167) mm brake shoes, which here in my country I could found them to be the same one as the EVO VI, VIII, IX.

these EVO's 6,8,9 uses a 300x22 (vs 3kgt 2nd US gen - 295x20), same -7mm rear discs. In order to fit them will need the same removal of dust protection, etc..

and these are not good enough for me as it wouldn't fit the brake pads that I'll use because these are larger (larger than the 3kgt front ones that I have).

also, my rear wheels are 19x10.5 et35, and they didn't clear the OEM calipers, even if they are concave and bbk friendly so I need bigger discs so that I'll be able to use the bigger calipers and to make a perfect match for the pads also.

whats interesting is what the European 3kgt vr-4 models 1st and 2nd gen are using on the rears, they use the 1st gen US models smaller brake system, even if the fronts have been the larger ones from the beginning.
but this I think this is just normal for EU versions, as they were different from many points of view, like the one with the 6 speed vr-4 97 UK spec that I had on my hands that had MR gearing :)).

[GTOJOE]

Do some research on a dba rotor with part # DBA 4507A. It's 330mm 28mm thick with a height of 51mm. It's for an Australian delivered car. An FPV (fords performance arm) so you would have to special order it. Failing that I'm sure DBA could mske a custom rotor for you. The 5000 series is a 2 piece rotor so I'm sure they could use a hat for a 3/S and a larger rotor.

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[stealthTT]

Thanks for the part number but i'm located in Romania and it would be crazy to order something from Australia :)

Also, I looking to get this done mainly using OEM parts fitted on popular cars here lets say, as I need to get this done on budget.

I've went and asked for a XYZ dealer about a full set of rotors and been quoted for about 1400 usd, and thats not for me as I have my reasons.
So far for the pads front and rears and front rotors I have paid around 280 usd, and for the rear discs I should pay close to 120-150 usd.
Thats round 450 for discs and pads and not 1400.

About the rear rotors, keep in mind what I have just wrote, i'm looking to find other brake discs beeing 330x28 :)


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[stealthTT]

Just test fitted the front calipers with the wheels, discs and the front arm, and it looks like it will take more than just a bracket.
The mounting bolts on the calipers are 'almost' in the same position where the oem caliper was.
Its good that my technician is a great guy, and we have a great way out of this but a lot of custom work involved :)
Tomorrow i'll post pictures.

Have to say that i didnt see this coming as there was here a guy that had the fronts done easy using 380mm rotors and Audi calipers.


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[green-lantern]

Could you clock the caliper a bit and still use a bracket?

[stealthTT]

Yes, i could use one bracket but i will still need a spacer of 10-12mm.
What i will do, i'll fill the actual holes on the caliper and machine new mounting points so that it will be bolt on with just a spacer on the car original mounting points.
Will get more pictures tommorow.


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[green-lantern]

Sounds good, look forward to seeing it.

[stealthTT]

here are some pictures so far with them, this is right side
6334
6335
6336

and the metal brakets/spacers beeing done.
I've choosed metal and not aluminium.

6337

[green-lantern]

Holy crap, that's almost bolt on lol

[stealthTT]

yes, "almost" its the right word :)

I could have filled the caliper holes and redriled them so that they will fit right on there but the thinkness of the wall on caliper gave me some headaches, so I choosed to fit one directly and use the braket as a spacer and on the other one to use the braket as a braket :)
I will use some custom screws 10.9(strenght), the oem ones were 10 stamped on them.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

oem 10 is more like 12.9

[stealthTT]

Didnt knew that. Anyway the one I'll have to use are wider, in metric is 16, as the ones from cayenne


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[stealthTT]

can anyone tell what are the GT-R rotor specs front and rears?

maybe it sounds stupid but on other forums they are converting from ceramics to metal discs. why? because of maintenance price of the ceramics and limited use time on track.
so, been looking on the GT-R forums and found metal brake discs at a reasonable price.
keep in ind that there was a guy here(or on the other forum) that converted his fronts using RS6 calipers with 380mm discs. been talking with him but he couldnt tell from what car he orderded them.

so, the only one with 114.3x5 that could have 380x34mm were the 2009-2011(US) GT-R, but no metal ones.
probably they have a close fitment to the 370Z.


here is the link with them on metal for just 220$ a pair:
2009-2010 Nissan GT-R Std. Performance Brake Rotors (Front) :: 88Rotors (http://www.88rotors.com/2009-2010-nissan-gt-r-std-front-performance-brake-rotors.html)
2009-2010 Nissan GT-R Std. Performance Brake Rotors (Rear) :: 88Rotors (http://www.88rotors.com/2009-2010-nissan-gt-r-rear-performance-brake-rotors.html)

I should have went with these from the start, but maybe in the future if I dont like the 355 ones I'll go with these :)

lets see the specs on them.

[mb7050]

I think the specs would be the same with these DBA 5000 T3 Series Brake Disc/Bell (Black) - Slotted (Pair) Front Vented DBA52320BLKSP | clark motorsport (http://www.clarkmotorsport.net/parts/5000-T3-Series-Brake-Disc/Bell-(Black)---Slotted-(Pair)/Front-Vented/DBA52320BLKSP)

http://www.clarkmotorsport.net/images/parts/DBA/DBA52320.jpg


rear rotor specs
R35 GTR 2007-2015
DBA 52321
5000 2-piece Assy Black T3 Slot

Diameter 380
Height 62
Thickness 30
Min Thickness 28
C/Hole 68
Stud Holes 5

rear rotor info from http://www.dba.com.au/catalogue/online-catalogue/

[stealthTT]

the conversion it seems its not that easy to be done, but my buddy is one of the best welder here :)
bad picture, but this is it.
6360


we have concluded that the best thing to do in order to center these calipers on the rotors was to weld the caliper and add aluminium, then re-drill them to actual caliper to fit the same mounting points on the car. As you could see from the previous pictures the mounting points on the car are about 5-6 mm wider than the ones on the caliper.

If someone wants to fit these calipers, then go for bigger rotors, the 380 ones - it would be much easier to be fitted with just a bracket.
Also, I've seen that the Mercedes ones have a different mounting points, just like the BBK kits have and that makes it much more easier than using these.
now, I'll go further but it looks like it not a home garage project anymore, but I'll have it finished by next week the fronts.

now its time to machine and drill the calipers.
also, we have changed the bolts dimensions and we went with a bigger one 14x1.25 mm

[stealthTT]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/qa2edu5a.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/yjesunur.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/bune2aza.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/gu5ype5y.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/japuvete.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/yzehytaq.jpg


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[stealthTT]

So, the fronts are done!

Next week we will start on building the rears.


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[mb3000]

Good stuff! Glad you actually went through with it.

[green-lantern]

Awesome, your buddy does great work.

[stealthTT]

thanks a lot!!

yes, my buddy is great!!
he's got a huge car related experience mainly welding/metal related, and when I say huge, I mean it.
he's the only one I know that have worked/build WRC cars, like I said on metals.

100% you all see some of his TIG skills on my car this year.

6390