Quick Clutch Help

[x2percentmilk]

Is there any chance the pressure plate can go bad, then after daily driving with it bad for a month or more that the clutch disk is still ok? I had something really strange involving the release bearing happen to my car, and now the clutch slips if i give it gas at low rpms, pretty readily, so Im worried I damaged the pressure plate. Adjusting the clutch has helped twice, but within the day it would start slipping again. At higher rpm's (4k+) it doesnt seem to slip as readily, but ive been babying it as last time I popped a spring messing around with a bad clutch. I havent beaten on it but have driven it quite a ways since it happened.

Its an act xtreme pressure plate with the street disk and was installed by me with the incorrect release bearing for various reasons about a year ago, this problem started about two months ago. New master cylinder and a healthy slave, no leaks or air.

I only ask because I am tight on money (school :mad:) and am thinking about just replacing the pressure plate, because if the disk in there is ok id rather save the cost of the disk and resurfacing the flywheel. However, if the pressure plate is ok id rather not have to buy that again. I already have a brand new act release bearing.

I guess my real question is:
If you had to replace one to see what was wrong after hearing that story, what would you replace first? The disk or the pressure plate? I dont mind having to replace the other if I find out the first one didnt do it, but itd be nice to be right the first time.

[stealthee]

After all my issues I wouldn't be suprised if the disk is your issue. I've pushed the center section out of 3 disks with a Maxx Xtreme PP.

[x2percentmilk]

So say I order the disk and drop the transmission, is there anyway to know 100% if the pressure plate is ok?

I feel like this is going to end in me buying another kit :/

[stealthee]

The last pressure plate I pulled out, other than mine, was noticably damaged with bent and broken fingers.

I would say get a whole kit and be on the safe side. It would suck to order just one thing, drop the trans and have it be the other.

[x2percentmilk]

Guess hearing someone else say it is more of a wake then that gut feeling I was avoiding.
Now to find someone who will resurface my flywheel with same day turn around.

Thanks for the help.

[Austin@STM]

Chances are its the disk, if it wore down then you adjusted it, and it grabbed again then the pressure plate might be ok. However the pressure plate can only have force so far, once the clutch wears down the pressure is reduced more and more, until it cant handle the torque and slips. If the pressure plate is messed up it does sometimes show. The the fingers will not all be inline with each other (some in or out further than the others).

Your best bet is to replace it all now. If its slipped that much already then chances are the PP is already fairly worn down or uneven, and if you only replace the disk, you be back very soon replacing the disk again as it will wear wrong. It is also not worth ricking it and shooting a finger or spring through the bellhousing.

-Austin@STM

[x2percentmilk]

Ready for a twist? The ENTIRE way home, no matter how hard i tried (and i tried hard) I couldnt get it to slip. No combination of gear, throttle position, rpm, sudden WOT's, nothing. Havent touched a thing and this morning I needed every mussel in my body to keep it from slipping.

False hope, or is something going on here.

[Austin@STM]

Another possibility is your rear main seal could be leaking.

[x2percentmilk]

Hmm, that would make sense, would explain the odd behavior swings. I did an oil change this morning, possibly held it off on the leaks for the ride home?

Considering how solid it felt, is the clutch worthy to save if the seal is replaced? Or would the oil pretty much screw it over for good.

[Austin@STM]

If its already slipped the damage is done. It may stil be ok to drive that's up to you to find out if it continues to hold or not. I personally would recommend replacing it while you are in there to do the seal. That's one less time you have to take apart the car as well which is good.

-Austin@STM

[CoreyB]

Adjusting the clutch shouldn't effect how well it grabs unless your release is set to the floor. I think the oil leak is a good possibility. Another would be if you had the flywheel resurfaced before and it was done wrong.

[x2percentmilk]

Alrighty, thanks a ton for the info. Saving my pennies as we speak. Flywheel was resurfaced from an unknown machine shop, so who knows on that one.

[CoreyB]

When a flywheel is resurfaced the area that the pressure plate mounts to must be surface by the same amount. Otherwise you could have the problem you are having.

[Austin@STM]

That's a good point to.

[x2percentmilk]

Thats why the pins need to be removed right? I made sure that was done.

[CoreyB]

Yeah the flywheel/pressure plate alignment pins would have to have been pulled to resurface properly. If you are not high horsepower I would go all oem.

[stealthee]

Another possibility is your rear main seal could be leaking.

As much as people think that, 99.999% of the time its not going to be the case. The rear main seal is BEHIND the flywheel. The probabilities of oil getting onto the mating surface area of the flywheel and clutch are very very slim.

[Austin@STM]

As much as people think that, 99.999% of the time its not going to be the case. The rear main seal is BEHIND the flywheel. The probabilities of oil getting onto the mating surface area of the flywheel and clutch are very very slim.

Yes i know this, but it does happen, and they can get to a point where it is the problem. Everything inside the bellhousing is moving around very fast and can easily get oil to the other side.

[x2percentmilk]

Well since this discussion started the clutch was 80% working perfectly. some days id get light slips.

Early today the transmission shifted like butter for the first time in a month. Clutch felt fine but didnt care to see if it slipped.

Started the car to head home and I had NO clutch. Zip, zero, none. Started it in first with a roll and the worst noise ive ever heard, trucker shifted to third and crawled home with my hazards on blowing through stop signs. From what I can feel its pretty bad, alot of vibration, TONS of vibration when the clutch fork even moves towards the clutch. Will be dropping the trans soon to see exactly what it was, but I think it has something to do with that crappy release bearing.

Just wanted to give a warning to anyone haveing similar symptoms.

On another note, while I loved the act clutch I had (performance street disc, extreme pressure plate) the price was a bit steep and im strapped for cash. Anyone know how the exedy organic stage 1 compares? I cant seem to find any torque numbers or pedal stiffness. I plan on auto crossing at least once this coming season, hopefully more if I find I like it, if that matters. I'm a bolt on NA.

[x2percentmilk]

Update.
Installed a Southbend TZ clutch, let it properly break in (my commute is alot of highway so I let the break in period go until about 1000). Im well over 1000 into the new clutch now and so far I have been loving it.

Late last night trying to go at a stop light (normally, not racing or anything) the clutch slipped horribly, i shifted into second and it still did it. It was a sort of violent slip, not a smooth slip like when a clutch is going bad. It fought for friction and stuttered (not chattering). I babied it and made it home.
Babied it to make it to work. Leaving work I ran a test to see if it was a heat issue. Dead cold I tried to slip the clutch in all gears and could not. After about 30 miles of highway driving I tried to slip it again. Same issue in 1st and second, violent slipping as it desperately tried for grip.

Clutch was completely installed by me. Flywheel was resurfaced. Clutch disk and flywheel were left wrapped in plastic right up until install and were not touched. Pedal was adjusted throughout break-in period and checked this morning. Literally no symptoms and perfect clutch up until this point.

Other symptoms: fluid was a little lower than I thought I left it but cant be sure, filled to line and will monitor.
While the car is cold (really cold) the pedal feels "mushy", gears grind a bit too.

[Jeremy C]

One thing I can tell you about the TZ - when it gets overheated, it will slip like nothing else. Had that happen at the track and I thought I had killed my clutch. Cooled down and it was perfectly fine again. I would check to make sure everything is engaging/disengaging well.

[x2percentmilk]

Thats what I figured was going on, it feels 100% perfect otherwise so I was guessing it was heat related.

How exactly should I check those things? I have a day off tomorrow and a second hand if needed.

[stealthee]

Highway driving does NOT break in a clutch. If you go on a 1000 mile cross country trip taking I70 the whole way you are not going to properly break in a clutch.

All that being said, you need to check the clutch pedal adjustment.

[x2percentmilk]

Right. Recommended break in period is usually around 400-500, southbend says about 750. I waited 1000 because most of my commute (not all) is highway. I did alot of other driving including a no-highway route to work often as well.
Double checking adjustment in a few.

EDIT: did need some more adjustment, will see how it does.

[Jeremy C]

updates? Hoping things are working better by now...

[x2percentmilk]

Fixed the issue until today. Clutch engagement point changed itself over the course of 40 minutes until I was locked out of gear. Fluid full, no leaks, cylinders fine. Went to adjust it on the side of the highway and the nut was still tight (so thats not the issue). Adjustment rod used to be loose enough to easily adjust by hand, but now needs lockjaws to move it at all. That is how my old master cylinder was as well, not sure why (when I replaced the master I couldnt even get the threaded bracket off the rod). Adjusted it and made it home.

Master is new, slave is new.

[stealthee]

I have a cheap $140 clutch/pressure plate in my car at the moment. If I get on the car hard and go WOT it will cause engagement issues. I have to adjust the clutch to get it back to where I can shift and its fine again until I would go WOT again.

[x2percentmilk]

Took the cap off the master and the adjustment rod spins more easily, i guess with it on and the fluid full youre fighting the vacuum. Adjusted again before work because im getting some slipping issues.
Didnt fix anything, clutch slips in first at 3/4 throttle and in second if I punch it at mid rpms consistently. I don't know what to do really.

Anyone want to buy an otherwise reliable sandstone first gen base?

[stealthee]

When you had the flywheel resurfaced did they properly two step it? If it wasn't done properly it could totally cause slippage issues.

[x2percentmilk]

Yeah, when I brought it to the guy he goes "ah one of the pain in the ass ones" and knew to take the pins out and everything.
Ive never had anything done by them but they build race engines so I figured he knew what he was doing.

[stealthee]

When you are adjusting the pedal are you checking for proper freeplay?

[x2percentmilk]

Yeah, im following instructions in the popular youtube video that was posted a while back. I was getting worried about the rear main seal again, but when the flywheel was off I remember there being no signs of leaking, or oil anywhere in the assembly.

[x2percentmilk]

Now I really dont know what is going on. Ill post a video with current symptoms tomorrow night after work.
Edit: cant seem to duplicate the symptom tonight, felt in between the clutch slipping and severe wheel hop. Checked my solid mounts and everything seems ok. Either way, the car feels solid as hell so im just going to cross my fingers. If its anything like my last problem im sure it will come back, but we will see.

[x2percentmilk]

Update: All has been fine, a few weeks ago I had the clutch un-adjust itself in traffic two days in a row. I adjusted properly again and the problem seems to have gone away for now, car is fine and drives beautifully.

I was just checking some random things today, including the clutch pedal free play. This time, when pushing the clutch pedal in there were two LOUD distinctive clunks. Its definitely coming from the clutch assembly, fork, or release bearing. I can feel each one very easily in the clutch pedal, I removed the rubber bellhousing vents and can not feel it as strongly while touching the pressure plate as I can while touching the clutch fork. Cellphone Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPaNZxhVCXM
Honestly I dont even think those were there on my drive this morning. Its down right terrifying to feel.

EDIT: scratch that. still there. kind of scary, car almost stalled out on me and ran rough (shaking the car) for a 1/4 mile earlier today, on an unrelated note.

[x2percentmilk]

Clutch pedal still un-adjusting itself, softer and low engagement while starting up, harder and high engagement later. It will be like this for a few days but wont need adjustment, then suddenly over the course of one day it will move so high I get locked out of gear. Clutch rod itself is not moving from where I left it. Have been adjusting it on the side of the road 3 times in 3 or 4 days now.

Also will occasionally get overheating issues causing slippage in low gears. Other times I can go WOT in first and spin my tires. Clunking / Popping noise described above is also intermittent.

I found a thread on 3si from like 6 years ago explaining the same issue with the clutch adjustment, could not tell if replacing the master cylinder fixed the issue or not. This master is only a couple thousand miles old =[

Just an update, will try a really good bleed sometime this weekend, if that doesnt fix it another master cylinder will go in.

*Sigh*

EDIT: 2/20/10. Looked into the DSM pedal "pump up" issue, think it might be related. I adjusted the clutch stop / switch and bled it really well. All seems preem-o (didnt realize how bad I needed spark plugs too, i love when the car feels healthy) but only time will tell.