How come no one makes a full replacement silicone SMIC pipes?

[Greg E]

I know about the company in the UK who makes replacement pipes for the stock rubber hoses but I'm talking about a full pipe replacement kit from turbo to ICs to y-pipe all in 2" piping? It wouldn't be expensive to manufacture. It'll be lighter than SS and won't rust like normal steel. It'll fit a hellova lot better and certainly be 10x easier to install. It'll flex with the motor. Its cheap and can be made in a variety of colors...

Srsly?

[jbuhrman]

If your willing to pay the $$$ it is available through Pitroad M, but your correct I haven't really seen it produced here in murica.

[TurboSinceBirth]

If you can get it down to $250-300 I bet they'd sell; otherwise, FMIC kits dominate the market. There's a reason they have been sold in the past but were always discontinued because nobody wanted them.

[Greg E]

If you can get it down to $250-300 I bet they'd sell; otherwise, FMIC kits dominate the market. There's a reason they have been sold in the past but were always discontinued because nobody wanted them.

Yes I'm aware of the false illusion that FMICs are better.

[sergechronos]

Can't be false Greg, I read it on the internet.

[mb3000]

Where have y'all been?


They are on eBay... I was the original "test fitter". I really really like them.

Silicone Intercooler Hose Kit for Mitsubishi GTO 3000gt Dodge Stealth Blue | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Silicone-Intercooler-Hose-kit-for-Mitsubishi-GTO-3000GT-Dodge-Stealth-BLUE-/310531838516?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3A3000GT&hash=item484d23d234&vxp=mtr)

Silicone Intercooler Hose Kit for Mitsubishi GTO 3000gt Dodge Stealth Black | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Silicone-Intercooler-Hose-kit-for-Mitsubishi-GTO-3000GT-Dodge-Stealth-BLACK-/360534366013?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3A3000GT&hash=item53f185d73d&vxp=mtr)

[Ange]

so what's wrong with the cx hardpipekit?

[Greg E]

so what's wrong with the cx hardpipekit?

Can't get it in any color coupler besides red/blue and there is no way to adapt the drivers IC coupler to be 2".

[Greg E]

Where have y'all been?

Those aren't what I'm after. They only replace the stock rubber hoses. Not the entire SMiC pipe setup.

[HLxDrummer]

What is the advantage of aftermarket pipes? Bigger?

[Greg E]

What is the advantage of aftermarket pipes? Bigger?

Yes.56

[GTOJOE]

Won't the pipes expand under boost?

[Ange]

What is the advantage of aftermarket pipes? Bigger?

Nothing really imo.

Combined diameter of the stock pipes is the same as the stock tb and plenum.

So even if you upgrade to 2" piping it will bottleneck at the tb/plenum.

I don't know if anyone agrees with this but It's just my logic. If it's flawed I want to hear your reasoning.

[stealthee]

I look at it like this. If your intake is larger than your TB then you will always have excess air available for the TB to ingest, like a charge pipe. I have 4" intake on my Grand Prix. The TB isn't even close to that size.

[mb7050]

I think it like this: pressure drop + and +

iirc our tb is 68mm or so





lets say at 15 psi or 360 cfm of flow per turbo the pressure drop would be

stock ic system
2psi pressure drop in the IC piping + 1.5 psi pressure drop in the IC's + 0.01 psi pressure drop in the tb and the plenum = 3.51psi total pressure drop in the system

now if you only upgrade the pipes to 2" and the IC's to ~ 8"x8"x4.5" cores at the same 15 psi of boost the pressure drops would be
0.4psi pressure drop in the IC piping + 0.5 psi pressure drop in the IC's + 0.01 psi pressure drop in the tb and the plenum = 1 psi total pressure drop in the system





at 25psi or 750cfm per turbo

stock ic system
4.5psi pressure drop in the IC piping + 3 psi pressure drop in the IC's + 0.2 psi pressure drop in the tb and the plenum = 7.7psi total pressure drop in the system

upgrade the pipes to 2" and the IC's to 8"x8"x4.5" cores at the same 25 psi of boost the pressure drops would be
1psi pressure drop in the IC piping + 2 psi pressure drop in the IC's + 0.2 psi pressure drop in the tb and the plenum = 3.2 psi total pressure drop in the system

[Greg E]

Won't the pipes expand under boost?

If they are made properly, no.

[GTOJOE]

I think it like this: pressure drop + and +

iirc our tb is 68mm or so





lets say at 15 psi or 360 cfm of flow per turbo the pressure drop would be

stock ic system
2psi pressure drop in the IC piping + 1.5 psi pressure drop in the IC's + 0.01 psi pressure drop in the tb and the plenum = 3.51psi total pressure drop in the system

now if you only upgrade the pipes to 2" and the IC's to ~ 8"x8"x4.5" cores at the same 15 psi of boost the pressure drops would be
0.4psi pressure drop in the IC piping + 0.5 psi pressure drop in the IC's + 0.01 psi pressure drop in the tb and the plenum = 1 psi total pressure drop in the system





at 25psi or 750cfm per turbo

stock ic system
4.5psi pressure drop in the IC piping + 3 psi pressure drop in the IC's + 0.2 psi pressure drop in the tb and the plenum = 7.7psi total pressure drop in the system

upgrade the pipes to 2" and the IC's to 8"x8"x4.5" cores at the same 25 psi of boost the pressure drops would be
1psi pressure drop in the IC piping + 2 psi pressure drop in the IC's + 0.2 psi pressure drop in the tb and the plenum = 3.2 psi total pressure drop in the system

So with my stock ic piping snd my 8x8x4.5 ics at 15psi I should expect a 2.5psi drop?

Have people reslly had issues with rust etc on ic pipes? I've had no issues with mine on a 23 year old gto. However it has never seen salt before.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[fastfalcon94]

Why not buy the cxracing side mount kit and then modify it so it uses standard 2" couplers? There are only 2 weird couplers in the kit. I bet with a 90 degree 2" bend and 45 degree 2" bend you could modify them that a standard 2" black coupler kit would work. Or keep your eyes pealed for a DNP kit. I was going to modify the cxracing kit for mine but ended up not going dual core and fixing my surge another way.


cxracing.com: Stock SM Intercooler pipe kit Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Dodge Stealth TT new Design (http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=KIT-3000GT-STOCK-SET-NEW&Category_Code=3000GT)

[Greg E]

Why not buy the cxracing side mount kit and then modify it so it uses standard 2" couplers? There are only 2 weird couplers in the kit. I bet with a 90 degree 2" bend and 45 degree 2" bend you could modify them that a standard 2" black coupler kit would work. Or keep your eyes pealed for a DNP kit. I was going to modify the cxracing kit for mine but ended up not going dual core and fixing my surge another way.

cxracing.com: Stock SM Intercooler pipe kit Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Dodge Stealth TT new Design (http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=KIT-3000GT-STOCK-SET-NEW&Category_Code=3000GT)

Already tried both ideas you just posted.

No, the drivers side doesn't fit well like way you mentioned. It fit so shitty that way I didn't even both finding someone to put a bead in the pipes I modified.

Passenger side fit just fine like that by only replacing the reducer with a true 2" coupler.

DNP kits are a dream. They don't exist anymore.

[Greg E]

...oh and chances are, anything you buy from CX racing will either arrive damaged or with parts missing due to poor packaging.

[Maximal]

If you're having issues with the CX Racing stuff let me know Greg and I'll make sure it gets to you in one piece. The coupler issue is annoying though. If you wanted to source your own I can see about a kit without any if you want.

As for the original question it's mainly that no one is going to spend the money to develop these for a small platform and it's nothing that the actual 3S shops can make. I would take a set of silicone hoses over hardpipes any day, just for ease of installation. :p

[fastfalcon94]

Weird. I made all my own piping with cxracing pre-bend pipe sections. All 90s, 45s, and one U bend. The stuff is 2mm thick and easy to weld, and it really wasn't hard to do. I never modified one of their "kits" for our cars though. Do you have pics of what you tried?

[Greg E]

Weird. I made all my own piping with cxracing pre-bend pipe sections. All 90s, 45s, and one U bend. The stuff is 2mm thick and easy to weld, and it really wasn't hard to do. I never modified one of their "kits" for our cars though. Do you have pics of what you tried?

Just sold that pipe set... :(

I might still have the modified 90* piece somewhere. I used a 45" coupler to a 90 which went down to the drivers IC. The order was IC -> 2" coupler -> modified 90* hard pipe -> 45* coupler -> CX racing hard pipe (which goes across the front of the engine to the y-pipe)

It was too tall and shortening that 90 anymore would have gotten into the radius of the bend.

Terry, if CX Racing could replace that funky "whale penis" coupler with one that was 2" I'd be happy. ...and if their y-pipe BOV hose was a true 1.75" adaptor instead if a 2" so that the stock rubber BOV hose fit without a fight, the whole set would be perfect.

[95gto]

Does someone have a donor hard piping kit they would want copied into silicone? There are outfits out there that would gladly do the development work both domestic and international.

I have no clue what costs would run but the option is out there for those with sufficient interest.

[Ange]

I think it like this: pressure drop + and +

iirc our tb is 68mm or so



TB is 60mm.

Compare that to 300zx who uses dual 50mm. Supra 70mm. Don't think any of the 90's japs has a smaller tb inlet than the 3s. So it is kind of undersized imo.

[Greg E]

Does someone have a donor hard piping kit they would want copied into silicone? There are outfits out there that would gladly do the development work both domestic and international.

I have no clue what costs would run but the option is out there for those with sufficient interest.

This is kinda the direction I'm looking at going. If I can find a supplier, ill produce and sell a few sets.

[AdamVR4]

Why do you want to replace 3 steel pipes so badly?

- you will always need a metal tube at the rear turbo for the oring.

- the 3 steel (non y pipe) tubes are above the exhaust manifolds or in position to rub against the chassis. Replacing these with silicone will only mildly improve serviceability and potentially hurt reliability.

I think the stock setup is awesome and I miss it. Replacing the old rubber hoses with silicone seems perfect, but aside from weight (negligible) why worry about these 3 steel tubes?

[Greg E]

Why do you want to replace 3 steel pipes so badly?

- you will always need a metal tube at the rear turbo for the oring.

- the 3 steel (non y pipe) tubes are above the exhaust manifolds or in position to rub against the chassis. Replacing these with silicone will only mildly improve serviceability and potentially hurt reliability.

I think the stock setup is awesome and I miss it. Replacing the old rubber hoses with silicone seems perfect, but aside from weight (negligible) why worry about these 3 steel tubes?

Because there is no such thing as a true 2" SMIC pipe kit for our cars.

Like I said above, if there is a way to adapt the current pipe kits, I'm all for that as well.

[AdamVR4]

So now it's about pressure drop through those 3 steel tubes? Have you done the simple analysis to determine the potential benefit?

The $160 kit mb3000 posted will be tough to beat, imo.

[Ange]

Because there is no such thing as a true 2" SMIC pipe kit for our cars.

Like I said above, if there is a way to adapt the current pipe kits, I'm all for that as well.

so with CX kit you just have to replace 5 couplers to straight 2" and the snorkel to a 90" pipe.

chop this to 5 couplers for price save 2" 50mm 1M Straight Silicone Coolant Hose Length Intercooler Pipe Blue | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261248335948)

and get this Universal Aluminum Intercooler Pipe 90degree 2" 51mm | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/300930774542)

And done. 2" all the way.

But true cx doesnt always deliver quality. Their welds car be shitty. So check the insides of the pipes for loose alu pieces.

[AdamVR4]

Nothing really imo.

Combined diameter of the stock pipes is the same as the stock tb and plenum.

So even if you upgrade to 2" piping it will bottleneck at the tb/plenum.

I don't know if anyone agrees with this but It's just my logic. If it's flawed I want to hear your reasoning.

Pressure drop is a function of length. Sure, the TB will be a source of pressure drop, but that doesn't magically make pressure drop through the tubes leading to it go away, nor will it completely negate improvements made upstream. Google pressure drop in pipes to learn more.

[Ange]

Pressure drop is a function of length. Sure, the TB will be a source of pressure drop, but that doesn't magically make pressure drop through the tubes leading to it go away, nor will it completely negate improvements made upstream. Google pressure drop in pipes to learn more.
No don't know much about that. But why even Count with it? It's just semantics. The pipe length will always be the same with twin turbos. What we can change is pipe diameter, intercooler size, tb and plenum. And adapt it all for the CFM output.

[Greg E]

so with CX kit you just have to replace 5 couplers to straight 2" and the snorkel to a 90" pipe.

chop this to 5 couplers for price save 2" 50mm 1M Straight Silicone Coolant Hose Length Intercooler Pipe Blue | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261248335948)

and get this Universal Aluminum Intercooler Pipe 90degree 2" 51mm | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/300930774542)

And done. 2" all the way.

But true cx doesnt always deliver quality. Their welds car be shitty. So check the insides of the pipes for loose alu pieces.

Tried that already.


Just sold that pipe set... :(

I might still have the modified 90* piece somewhere. I used a 45" coupler to a 90 which went down to the drivers IC. The order was IC -> 2" coupler -> modified 90* hard pipe -> 45* coupler -> CX racing hard pipe (which goes across the front of the engine to the y-pipe)

It was too tall and shortening that 90 anymore would have gotten into the radius of the bend.

Terry, if CX Racing could replace that funky "whale penis" coupler with one that was 2" I'd be happy. ...and if their y-pipe BOV hose was a true 1.75" adaptor instead if a 2" so that the stock rubber BOV hose fit without a fight, the whole set would be perfect.

[mb7050]

So with my stock ic piping snd my 8x8x4.5 ics at 15psi I should expect a 2.5psi drop?

Have people reslly had issues with rust etc on ic pipes? I've had no issues with mine on a 23 year old gto. However it has never seen salt before.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

yes but keep in mind if you plan to raise the boost the stock piping becomes a big restriction.

and never have I had any rust issues either.

[mb3000]

Ray has stock piping on his DR750 car, so there is really no reason to make them larger.

[Ange]

Ray has stock piping on his DR750 car, so there is really no reason to make them larger.

2" piping
1.57 x 2 = 3.14 sq in
300 cfm = 156 mph = 0.20 mach
400 cfm = 208 mph = 0.27 mach
500 cfm = 261 mph = 0.34 mach
585 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach

I'm guessing they are ~550cfm max each turbo. So 2" should be good for them.

Smaller piping than that would mean more than mach 0.4 = flow loss. 1.6" pipes will definately be too small.

[vTaKwiTHsLiCkS]

I believe Ray is running an HKS or DNP hard pipe kit on his car.

What are the going rates for DNP hard pipe kits these days anyways? I got a buddy who has a set that's just sitting collecting dust since he went FMIC.

[mb7050]

Ray has stock piping on his DR750 car, so there is really no reason to make them larger.

you sure can get away with small charge pipes if your ok with the pressure drop.
use this calculator for example
Compressed Air Pipe Lines - Online Pressure Drop Calculator (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pressure-drop-compressed-air-pipes-d_852.html)

DR750's/or similar 2" piping at estimated ~25psi of boost and 750cfm of flow per turbo
q = 750 (cfm)
L = 11 (length of piping ft)
d = 2 (inside diameter of intercooler piping in.)
p = 40 (the standard atmospheric pressure at sea level = 14.7psi + 25psi of boost)
PRESSURE DROP = 1.08psi

DR750's stock 1.5" ID piping at the same estimated ~25psi of boost and 750cfm of flow per turbo
q = 750 (cfm)
L = 11 (length of IC piping in ft)
d = 1.5" (inside diameter in.)
p = 40 ( 14.7atm + 25psi boost)
PRESSURE DROP = 4.55psi.



use the same calculator for ~15psi or about 360cfm

stock piping
q = 360 (cfm)
L = 11 (length of IC piping in ft)
d = 1.5" (inside diameter in.)
p = 30 ( 14.7atm + 15psi boost)
PRESSURE DROP = 1.56psi.

2" piping
q = 360 (cfm)
L = 11 (length of IC piping in ft)
d = 2" (inside diameter in.)
p = 30 ( 14.7atm + 15psi boost)
PRESSURE DROP = 0.37psi.

[mb3000]

I'm not disregarding theory. Fact is, Ray makes more power than just about anyone with TD04's. There really isn't a good reason to do anything past the hoses that DBest tested out, because nobody is making more HP than Ray with side mounts. I have never seen the factory hard pipes rust due to their coating.

Custom 2" pipes for sidemounts would be cool, except the price of that and a quality set of sidemounts would probably put you in the hole for more than a quality FMIC would. And let's be honest, 95% if not more of the big power guys run a FMIC. There's simply little to no market for this kind of thing, as Was shown with J and his custom SMIC group buy thread.

[Greg E]

Ray has stock piping on his DR750 car, so there is really no reason to make them larger.

False. Ray has always had the DNP kit with a custom set of SMICs with 2" inlets/outlets.

[AdamVR4]

No don't know much about that. But why even Count with it? It's just semantics.

Good lord, what? No, it's not semantics. You, like so many before you, said something like, "but that bottleneck makes increasing this upstream diameter pointless"... that's flat out untrue because pressure drop is a function of length. IC tubing is a LONG non-trivial source of pressure drop regardless of downstream bottlenecks.

[Ange]

Good lord, what? No, it's not semantics. You, like so many before you, said something like, "but that bottleneck makes increasing this upstream diameter pointless"... that's flat out untrue because pressure drop is a function of length. IC tubing is a LONG non-trivial source of pressure drop regardless of downstream bottlenecks.

Alright. So how much larger piping do we need in relation to the lenth of stock piping then? Say for 550max CFM turbos. Cant find the formula and cnba to search for it. :subdued:

[jbuhrman]

This is kinda the direction I'm looking at going. If I can find a supplier, ill produce and sell a few sets.

Greg,

Give these peeps a call

Manufacturer of High Performance Silicone Hoses | Thermal Flex (http://www.thermalflex.com/)

HQ is located in San Diego, warehouse, and factory is across the border

[2fnloud]

This is kinda the direction I'm looking at going. If I can find a supplier, ill produce and sell a few sets.

I would so be down for a set in black....just saying

[mb7050]

me too

[mb3000]

False. Ray has always had the DNP kit with a custom set of SMICs with 2" inlets/outlets.

My apologies. Since It was not listed in his "Dyno" thread I assumed it was stock.

My main turn-off for SMIC's was the price of custom (Bell, Gene, Alamo, etc), or the fact that the DSM cores were typically beat to hell and full of 1/2qt of oil. IMO if you get these nice silicone pipes going and sell them as a kit with converted NEW DSM cores ($321.30 a pop @ Cherry Hill currently) you would definitely be on to something.

[jbuhrman]

My apologies. Since It was not listed in his "Dyno" thread I assumed it was stock.

My main turn-off for SMIC's was the price of custom (Bell, Gene, Alamo, etc), or the fact that the DSM cores were typically beat to hell and full of 1/2qt of oil. IMO if you get these nice silicone pipes going and sell them as a kit with converted NEW DSM cores ($321.30 a pop @ Cherry Hill currently) you would definitely be on to something.

But think about it, you're looking at over $1000 probably for new dsm cores, modified, and the silicone piping then. People will bitch and complain its too much money when they can buy a ebay special for $599.

I bet ETS would make side mounts, hell they have coopkill's stockers sitting on a shelf, but since they know no one would be willing to pay what it would cost they just sit there collecting dust waiting on either him to come back to pick them up or next spring cleaning.

[mb3000]

But think about it, you're looking at over $1000 probably for new dsm cores, modified, and the silicone piping then. People will bitch and complain its too much money when they can buy a ebay special for $599.

I bet ETS would make side mounts, hell they have coopkill's stockers sitting on a shelf, but since they know no one would be willing to pay what it would cost they just sit there collecting dust waiting on either him to come back to pick them up or next spring cleaning.

Unfortunately that is/was my point.

[dbest671]

But think about it, you're looking at over $1000 probably for new dsm cores, modified, and the silicone piping then. People will bitch and complain its too much money when they can buy a ebay special for $599.

I bet ETS would make side mounts, hell they have coopkill's stockers sitting on a shelf, but since they know no one would be willing to pay what it would cost they just sit there collecting dust waiting on either him to come back to pick them up or next spring cleaning.

Gene's clusterf*ck of a group buy on those intercoolers left a horrible taste in people's mouths. So now when anybody starts a gauging interest thread for "custom SMIC", give the projected price, but have no prototype (hell even example of previous work) to show nobody is interested.

If ETS came here and said here's what we have, here's the size, here's what they look like, here they are installed... the price is $1500-1700 shipped, I bet dollars to donuts people would line up w/ cash in hand. Look at how many people were in Gene's group buy originally. ETS has the reputation and backing, so the concerns about quality and delivery is pretty much moot. I would say between the two forums, there would be 10 buyers semi-immediately. Well maybe not this time of year, need to do something like that late February early March (tax return time).

[J. Fast]

If ETS came here and said here's what we have, here's the size, here's what they look like, here they are installed... the price is $1500-1700 shipped, I bet dollars to donuts people would line up w/ cash in hand. Look at how many people were in Gene's group buy originally. ETS has the reputation and backing, so the concerns about quality and delivery is pretty much moot. I would say between the two forums, there would be 10 buyers semi-immediately. Well maybe not this time of year, need to do something like that late February early March (tax return time).

For that kind of money hell you could buy the welder, the cores, the piping, and have some left over for some blow... The run for new products is pretty much over. It's a 20 year old car. All the money's been spent and swallowed up. Guys still hanging around are building products themselves. There's no money in a product like that for a corporation like ETS. 10 sets is a joke for them. Maybe 100 sets will get their attention. It's just too much effort for $2000 profit. 10 sets is a spec dirt that gets dusted off. Maybe the next F&F movie will revive a slow dying breed. Doubt it but...

[dbest671]

For that kind of money hell you could buy the welder, the cores, the piping, and have some left over for some blow... The run for new products is pretty much over. It's a 20 year old car. All the money's been spent and swallowed up. Guys still hanging around are building products themselves. There's no money in a product like that for a corporation like ETS. 10 sets is a joke for them. Maybe 100 sets will get their attention. It's just too much effort for $2000 profit. 10 sets is a spec dirt that gets dusted off. Maybe the next F&F movie will revive a slow dying breed. Doubt it but...

Glad to know you keep up with the price of "blow" LOL. Funny how you say that's expensive but yet only say they would make $200 in profit for a set :confused:

[fastfalcon94]

ETS does make other sidemount kits for other cars (audis). Maybe you could modify some easily for a 3s.

[Greg E]

The run for new products is pretty much over. It's a 20 year old car. All the money's been spent and swallowed up.

You know how many times I heard that during the development of Chrome? :lol:

[dbest671]

IDK, I've seen plenty of "new products" come out in the past couple of years. The problem is some people try to sell an idea and get pissed when nobody wants to buy into an idea. Then you have those produce a product (or commission the production) first, and then sell it, have more success.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I asked et's about making sidemounts and they refused.

Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk

[J. Fast]

You know how many times I heard that during the development of Chrome? :lol:
You know why it was successful? Because none of the developers or engineers got paid. It took what 1000 collective hours to realize the product? Most engineers I know rate out at over $100hr. So it would have likely cost $100,000 to bring a consumer ready, tested, and marketable product. Legitimate business don't do that. Nobody got paid for "Chrome" it was all volunteer and donation so don't talk like the supply demand is equivalent. If you tried to recoup that $100,000 in the 100 units sold to date you would have to charge over $2,000 a unit to break even.

IDK, I've seen plenty of "new products" come out in the past couple of years. The problem is some people try to sell an idea and get pissed when nobody wants to buy into an idea. Then you have those produce a product (or commission the production) first, and then sell it, have more success.

How do you sell a building or house that's only on paper? Only a fool would build it and then try to sell it. On a product when there's no guarantees to recoup your investment, the way you just described is bad business. That's how companies fold, and how our economy ended up in a big bailout.


I asked et's about making sidemounts and they refused.

Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk
I'm not surprised.

[Greg E]

You know why it was successful? Because none of the developers or engineers got paid. It took what 1000 collective hours to realize the product? Most engineers I know rate out at over $100hr. So it would have likely cost $100,000 to bring a consumer ready, tested, and marketable product. Legitimate business don't do that. Nobody got paid for "Chrome" it was all volunteer and donation so don't talk like the supply demand is equivalent. If you tried to recoup that $100,000 in the 100 units sold to date you would have to charge over $2,000 a unit to break even.


Only 100 units sold??

The numbers are over 300 now and continuing to grow. Chrome has been DLed more times than that.

One of these days ill write myself a paycheck instead of reinvesting it all into the business.

In all your speech about the insider knowledge of my business, you forgot about the hours invested into customer service too.

[dbest671]

How do you sell a building or house that's only on paper? Only a fool would build it and then try to sell it. On a product when there's no guarantees to recoup your investment, the way you just described is bad business. That's how companies fold, and how our economy ended up in a big bailout.


If you have no reputation behind your awesome house on paper... yeah you will have to build it first or have a company that has a reputation build it for you. Only an idiot (or somebody rich willing to gamble) would buy plans for a house from a nobody with no previous work to show his/her abilities. Last I checked, there are plenty of spec/models homes too, so they do build it first ;)

And companies build shit all the time before selling, that's why we have things called prototypes and concepts. Sometimes they have the eat the cost of R&D and sometimes they make bank, it's a roll of the dice.

[jbuhrman]

Well give me a few hours and I'll tell you how many people would need to show interest/commit to ETS for them to even go blow the dust off those stock side mounts they have laying in their shop, just need to wait for a response from them.

[dbest671]

ETS may be to big of a company, need to find something smaller. There is definitely an interest but members don't want to finance a move/house/BMW bike again, and you will need the support of both forums (sad but true). They also want to know the company/person that has their money has the capabilities to build a quality product.

[jbuhrman]

Truth be to told ETS is not that large of a company. Everything they sell is made when you order it. They utilize the most badass pipe bender I have ever seen for their stuff. Once they have the dimensions it gets loaded into computer and they simply enter it into the computer and it will bend the exact pipe again and again.

I do think if they could just modify some side mounts they already make and still be in the same price range then its possible... not probable but possible.

[jbuhrman]

Originally Posted by jbuhrman
Michael/Robert(whom ever reads the forum PM's today)

I gots a question for ya.

When you guys made the FMIC for the 3000GT/Stealth how much interest was expressed prior to agreeing to make the product? There is an interesting thread about SMIC's and silicone piping on 1 of the major forums, and the question came up about if you guys would take the project on.

I know right now its a no, however if interest was generated I am sure you would look into it. My question is how many people would you need to commit to buy product before you would R&D it, also I believe at the $1500-1600 price range(non-sale price)(if the side mounts are large enough) for a full kit you could get the interest.

Just throwing it out there.

We tried to do it once actually. One of the 3000gt vendors came to see us and wanted 10 of them. We still weren't able to do it (no time). I currently don't have a custom intercooler guy anymore. We are pretty much strictly a production shop now.

Thanks,
Robert
__________________Michael
Pho: 360-896-3000
AIM: ETS MichaelR



response in red

[Greg E]

Well that's a bummer...

[jbuhrman]

I have a few other places I can and will ask. its just a matter of time until we find someone looking to expand their brand and get more products out. Especially since we know some of the vendors will buy a surplus stock that might help out as well with the initial units sold.

[CoopKill]

The true story behind ETS, and side mounts for us is that they do not have the capacity to do anything new at all for a dying platform. They told me they are making way too much on the Nissan/Porche/Evo, and other up to date platforms to spend time on something that will net them so little. As sad as it is, that is a good business model to hold...

[J. Fast]

Only 100 units sold??

The numbers are over 300 now and continuing to grow. Chrome has been DLed more times than that.

One of these days ill write myself a paycheck instead of reinvesting it all into the business.

In all your speech about the insider knowledge of my business, you forgot about the hours invested into customer service too.

I think you're missing my point. Point being, individuals had to front it and assume the risk in both time and money.

About 15 years ago when I was in college at the University of Colorado for electrical engineering I work for AT&T / Lucent Technologies / Avaya Communication as a network systems design engineer. Our 2.2 million square foot building housed a 1 million square foot manufacturing plant called Celestica. We had research and development on one side, and production on the other. Sales and technical support, well, that was another group in and of itself.

I do not have direct insider knowledge as to the inner workings of your business. However, I do have first hand knowledge and experience in owning my own business's and first hand knowledge and experience in research and development of artificially intelligent devices.

Using my personal knowledge and experience, a pencil, scratch sheet of paper, and a calculator I could hinge a pretty close bet that what the production cost is on Crome and how many units it would take to recoup the initial investment and break even on it.

I commend all of the creators and involved parties in the development of Chrome. I'm sure they will all quite openly and honestly admit they developed the product not because they wanted to make money, but because it was a hobby turned business.

Had collaborators taken the idea of Chrome ECU to a real brick and mortar business for research, development, production, packaging, marketing, advertising, and support... One which paid them the entire time (which includes overhead and burden) the investment to date would have been several hundred thousand dollars.

Maybe at 600 units the business would see black. I am in no shape, way, or form dissing Chrome or anything like that. My point is, there's not a lot of companies out there that are willing to stick their necks out there like that.


If owners are looking side mounts, intercooler pipes, or whatever for a 20 year old car... You're going to have to front it. Maybe talk to Oohnoo or something? That guy seems to have made a successful run in the small batch 3/S intercooler market...

[dbest671]

All right, got lost in translation I guess. I was only using ETS as an example, not saying that they would produce the SMIC.

I guess what I was trying to say is somebody is going to have to build them first before they will sell, or at least have the reputation of being able to produce something like that. You can't call yourself a builder if you have only designed something on paper.

[mb7050]

times change. a few years ago ETS would make me sidemount intercoolers when I asked but they didnt have any thicker cores than 3.5" at ~9x8 core size back then.

[jbuhrman]

I think the only was any company would say lets go for it is with unit's sold up front. I think the only way you'll get the number of unit's required would be a vendor buying in and getting 5-10 unit's them selves. I wrote another smaller company I know of thats on the east coast but who knows what happens from here. Its patience, money, and time at this point.. and hell I don't even drive a 3/S no more...

[Greg E]

I think you're missing my point. Point being, individuals had to front it and assume the risk in both time and money.

I didn't read much into your life story but I got your point. Don't think you get mine though. Let me elaborate.

I didn't put the time into Chrome for the $$. I have a full time job that pays my bills.

Why then? Three reasons. Passion, sense of accomplishment/pride and respect.

This community is awesome and I love seeing what people have done with my work. You can't put a price tag on the number of times my name gets compared to the big businesses or seeing someone take my work and build some pretty awesome cars with it. You can't put a price tag on the sheer number of people who thank me and appreciate the efforts I did to give them something without demanding something in return. Repect and praise is a reward far greater than $$.

There is indeed a demand for a simple tuning solution that works well with minimal effort. Oddly, most of the customer base don't even buy a flash ECU for its tuning potential. They bought it because their original ECUs have died and they just want a quality replacement piece. How many 1Gs were sold? How many of them need new ECUs by now?

I'm not gonna speak for the motivation behind both my hardware counterparts getting involved because they don't give their product away. They did, however, research, design, test and manufacture it out of pocket. It was an investment without any kid of fundraiser option. Now that they have a product to sell, they are making return on their time. No one paid them to do it. There was no promise of sales.

That's how you make $$ on anything (not just this 20 year old "dying" platform). It's a risk investment that maybe pays you back later. Another term is entrepreneurship. You create a product or service, then put it out there in the hopes people will pay you for it.

Is there a demand for quality innercoolering solutions for this platform?
Yes.

Are they gonna pay for it?
No, not until you make it available to them.

After that?
I'd be willing to invest the capital to say yes. At the very least I can make back my capital investment.

Is it gonna be worth the time?
In my opinion, hell yes!

[FeaRpb]

See if Treadstone would be up for the task.

[mb7050]

they already have cores which would be perfect C300 300zx Intercooler Core- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE (http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/product.phtml?p=2045&cat_key=65&prodname=C300+300zx+Intercooler+Core)

[dbest671]

Doing anything for this platform is not going to make you rich; as soon as you realize that you can decide if you want to proceed with new products. Most of the individuals that make/do stuff for the platform do it out of love.

Also, you can only beat a "dying" horse so many times before it gives up the ghost. In the almost six years I've been a member I have seen the community be taken advantage of time and time again by companies/people that promise the world. Some even had a decent reputation before screwing people over.

Even Gene had a product to show before running off with tens of thousands of dollars.

[Greg E]

Doing anything for this platform is not going to make you rich; as soon as you realize that you can decide if you want to proceed with new products. Most of the individuals that make/do stuff for the platform do it out of love.

Also, you can only beat a "dying" horse so many times before it gives up the ghost. In the almost six years I've been a member I have seen the community be taken advantage of time and time again by companies/people that promise the world. Some even had a decent reputation before screwing people over.

Even Gene had a product to show before running off with tens of thousands of dollars.

+1

Some people are motivated by persuit of wealth (some call that greed), some people are motivated by passion. Whatever the motivation, the reward only comes to those who work for it.

[jbuhrman]

And right now my motivation to find someone to take on the SMIC's is boredum.... Im not even joking work is slow and quiet so I can use my time to assist other in their pursuit of power.

[J. Fast]

...
I didn't put the time into Chrome for the $$. I have a full time job that pays my bills.

Why then? Three reasons. Passion, sense of accomplishment/pride and respect.

This community is awesome and I love seeing what people have done with my work. You can't put a price tag on the number of times my name gets compared to the big businesses or seeing someone take my work and build some pretty awesome cars with it. You can't put a price tag on the sheer number of people who thank me and appreciate the efforts I did to give them something without demanding something in return. Repect and praise is a reward far greater than $$.

There is indeed a demand for a simple tuning solution that works well with minimal effort. Oddly, most of the customer base don't even buy a flash ECU for its tuning potential. They bought it because their original ECUs have died and they just want a quality replacement piece. How many 1Gs were sold? How many of them need new ECUs by now?

I'm not gonna speak for the motivation behind both my hardware counterparts getting involved because they don't give their product away. They did, however, research, design, test and manufacture it out of pocket. It was an investment without any kid of fundraiser option. Now that they have a product to sell, they are making return on their time. No one paid them to do it. There was no promise of sales.

That's how you make $$ on anything (not just this 20 year old "dying" platform). It's a risk investment that maybe pays you back later. Another term is entrepreneurship. You create a product or service, then put it out there in the hopes people will pay you for it.

Is there a demand for quality innercoolering solutions for this platform?
Yes.

Are they gonna pay for it?
No, not until you make it available to them.

After that?
I'd be willing to invest the capital to say yes. At the very least I can make back my capital investment.

Is it gonna be worth the time?
In my opinion, hell yes!
Good post. I like entrepreneurial spirits. However, money talks. Treadstone, Bell, or basic run of the mill mom and pop shops will ask for the same thing I did... A deposit for the run. I keep hearing "make something tangible to convince me to buy" comments. Fabricators and businesses say, "Give us some money first and we will". We seem to be trapped in this vortex of who's going to front it.

dbest seems to think there's 10 people that are interested in purchasing side mount intercooler kits and piping kits. Get your investors together and start waving cash...

[dbest671]

Good post. I like entrepreneurial spirits. However, money talks. Treadstone, Bell, or basic run of the mill mom and pop shops will ask for the same thing I did... A deposit for the run. I keep hearing "make something tangible to convince me to buy" comments. Fabricators and businesses say, "Give us some money first and we will". We seem to be trapped in this vortex of who's going to front it.

dbest seems to think there's 10 people that are interested in purchasing side mount intercooler kits and piping kits. Get your investors together and start waving cash...

You know how I know I'm right about there being interest if you had a product to show...

I started a GI thread for billet strut covers without an actual product to show. No bites, interest but no actual commitment. I eventually got my strut covers, for $220 shipped.

A few months after I get mine... Dave from Pampena produces them first, almost doubles the price I got mine for, and sells them. There was no GI thread or I have an idea thread. He just had them made without trying to raise the capital for production from the customers.

And what you, J. Fast, don't understand is... Your reputation isn't strong enough for the platform to support throwing money at you to build stuff. Especially when you couldn't provide examples of the work you claimed to have done for other platforms when asked.

[j2k4]

I didn't put the time into Chrome for the $$. I have a full time job that pays my bills.

Why then? Three reasons. Passion, sense of accomplishment/pride and respect.

Is it gonna be worth the time?

In my opinion, hell yes!


Good post. I like entrepreneurial spirits. However, money talks.

Two different philosophies, that's all.

The first is speculative and exploratory out of the gate - 'let's see where this goes...'

The latter assumes a single, conditional shot - in the shape of a group buy - to ascertain a risk worth taking.


Jeremy is right; materials need purchased, equipment, professional time must be calculated - this assumes a certain production level to plumb risk/reward.


Greg is right, too: 'Let's take what we have on-hand and see what we can do with it - we will use technology to guarantee repeatability.

If it works, we go fast, and see how many people ask us why.

Both approaches have merit; which will get the job DONE? :)

[GTOJOE]

What about ARC? they used to make a kit for our cars. I know because I'm using one lol. Maybe they still have the templates and can make them again?

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/passsideIC.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/passsideIC.jpg.html)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/driverssideIC.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/driverssideIC.jpg.html)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/P9120187Medium.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/P9120187Medium.jpg.html)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/P9120184Medium.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/P9120184Medium.jpg.html)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/P9120186Medium.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/P9120186Medium.jpg.html)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/P9120189Medium.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/P9120189Medium.jpg.html)

[NOMIEZVR4]

shameless plug

I've got a set of DSM SMIC and Stock SMIC's for sale. :p

[mb7050]

I think you still maybe can buy those but they are very expensive (+2000$), ralliart sells those. very nice intercoolers btw. somebody should copy the end tank design and use the inexpensive treadstone 300zx cores.

[hated]

ARC looking good! Any pictures of piping?

[jbuhrman]

Well that's a bummer...

Greg,

I sent you a PM with some information for someone that may be able to assist in your quest for the silicone piping, and aftermarket custom SMIC's.

[Streamln1]

IMO someone needs to make a copy of the DNP stainless harpipes, they fit almost perfect. That CX racing kit is garbage.

[Streamln1]

IMO someone needs to make a copy of the DNP stainless harpipes, they fit almost perfect. That CX racing kit is garbage.

[Ange]

IMO someone needs to make a copy of the DNP stainless harpipes, they fit almost perfect. That CX racing kit is garbage.

You can make the CX kit work.

http://www.3sgto.org/3000gt-stealth-gto-related-topics/10823-slightly-tweaked-3000gt-tt-10.html
http://pics.unlogic.se/3000gt/projekt/IMAG2280.jpg

I'd be all for an all alu DNP design kit though.

[fastfalcon94]

The CxRacing pipes should be revisd again. They have revised stuff in the past. I'm sure if someone shipped them DNP pipes they could use them as a template. Those 2 large silicone pieces of the CxRacing kit really make it look cheesy. If they redid that one pipe (even made it 2 pipes with a normal silicone coupler in between), it would look much better.


These are the audi ETS side mounts. I bet you could modify them to work as long as they physically fit with the endtanks. You would probably want 2 of the same audi sides so the inlet/outlet both come straight out the back. Then cut it and weld some prebent IC pipes on. Or see if ETS would just sell the cores and have your own endtanks fabricated. If the audi kit is $950, then maybe just the cores would be something like $700-$800 if ETS was willing to sell them. I reputable shop like our local kalescustom could fab up and weld endtanks probably for around $500-$600.


ETS 00 02 B5 Audi S4 Side Mount Intercoolers | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ETS-00-02-B5-Audi-S4-Side-Mount-Intercoolers-/190539738302?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5d0dacbe&vxp=mtr)


Another alternative to the piping is to just make it yourself. CXRacing sells prebent 2" sections. That is what I did for my setup. My friend welded it for me but I measured/cut/fit everything and marked it for him beforehand. Had him tac it, test fit it all, make some minor adjustments, then weld it. We had it done in a weekend. Eventually I had one of my pipes redesigned by KalesCustom for smoother flow. But I"m hapy how it came out. The CX piping is 2mm thick too which is really nice. I was told it was very easy to weld. My roomate did the same for his Evo and he wasn't going to buy CX pipe because he thought it was junk. After looking elsewhere he couldn't find anything with the same thickness. Even better "named" brand stuff was only 1.5mm thick.


http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/icp1_zps84144085.jpg

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/2012-06-22_13-17-34_449.jpg

[HLxDrummer]

Everyone is talking about all these different cores from different companies.. what is wrong with the DSM SMICs? OEM so the quality is there. All of them need to be custom made and Bob does it for a reasonable price. He can even do 2" pipes for you.

[Ange]

Everyone is talking about all these different cores from different companies.. what is wrong with the DSM SMICs? OEM so the quality is there. All of them need to be custom made and Bob does it for a reasonable price. He can even do 2" pipes for you.
They are old and most of the time in poor condition. Bent fins all over the front. So why put work and money in on old cores like that when you can use new better cores....

[Streamln1]

You can make the CX kit work.

http://www.3sgto.org/3000gt-stealth-gto-related-topics/10823-slightly-tweaked-3000gt-tt-10.html
http://pics.unlogic.se/3000gt/projekt/IMAG2280.jpg

I'd be all for an all alu DNP design kit though.

I personally think all the CX stuff is low quality fitment, that's why its so cheap.

Eh, Im not a fan of using aluminum for IC pipes, aluminum is tougher to keep looking good, and its weak, the CX style kits are very thin piping.

[GTOJOE]

I think you still maybe can buy those but they are very expensive (+2000$), ralliart sells those. very nice intercoolers btw. somebody should copy the end tank design and use the inexpensive treadstone 300zx cores.

I paid $350 for these including shipping from New Zealand to Australia :lol:


ARC looking good! Any pictures of piping?

They come with 2 pipes that basically makes them the same as stock. They bolt onto the stock mounts and connect to the stock hoses. I'll see if I have any pics of the pipes tonight.
This is the only set I hsve every seen. Someone on the NZ forum said they also had a set but that's it.


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[bearded1]

Everyone is talking about all these different cores from different companies.. what is wrong with the DSM SMICs? OEM so the quality is there. All of them need to be custom made and Bob does it for a reasonable price. He can even do 2" pipes for you.




When I asked him about 2" pipes in converting mine, he wasn't very receptive to the idea. He seemed pretty adamant that it was too tight and didn't really wanna get into it...





Sent from my Nokia Lumia using Tapatalk

[Bloodlust182]

I just found some DSM IC cores that are in good shape for $25 each , going to clean them out with some gasoline then hit em with simple green, then Rubbing alcohol. Was quoted by a shop for $150 to convert the set to 3000gt style with 2" piping. I just need to supply the 2" piping. IMO DSM SMIC's are a pretty nice upgrade. Ill probably go with a custom piping setup or those Silicone ones with stock pipes. Those ARC ic's look mint!

[HLxDrummer]

When I asked him about 2" pipes in converting mine, he wasn't very receptive to the idea. He seemed pretty adamant that it was too tight and didn't really wanna get into it...




Sent from my Nokia Lumia using Tapatalk

Hmm.. maybe I just made that up. I am like 95% sure he offered 2 pipe sizes. Maybe one was stock and one was slightly bigger but not 2"? How long ago did you talk to him?

[GTOJOE]

From what I recall the 2" option was stock sized pipes welded to the core and then the pipe widens to 2" to connect to larger than stock piping. I don't think the end tanks on the DSM ics or even my ARC ics are big enough for 2" piping. Ideally someone would copy the ARC design and make the tanks bigger. I looked for some pics of the piping that came with the ics but no luck. I'll have to take some one the car.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[dbest671]

3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/dsm-ics-312646/)


Well it took me long enough but I finially finished making the jig to make these things. My jigs lines everything up perfectly with the stock 3 bolt holes (2 on side and 1 on top) and also lines the pipes up perfectly with the stock hose locations. These are made with 1 3/4" pipes which are a perfect mate for the DNP pipes as there is no room for error with pipes/couplers vs hoses.
Stock IC pipes are 40mm (1.575")
The DN pipes are 2" but taper down to 1 3/4" on the ends where they connect to the IC's.

OK...The pricing is going to be as follows:

DSM IC's with 1 3/4" piping as in pics will be $550 shipped. New lowered price. :)

DSM IC's with stock piping will be $500 shipped.


If you want ones with the 1 3/4" piping I need to know so I can order the pipes as I don't stock them. Or if you want 2" piping let me know and we can work somthing out.

http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL92/799394/3275939/127790167.jpghttp://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL92/799394/3275939/127790163.jpg

[GTOJOE]

Has anyone tried to make a set by using a core similar to this style and cutting it down the middle? Weld a plate over the end tank and you have 2x cores. Just needs to be 4" thick x 8" high and 16" long.

http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=290938981462

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[GTOJOE]

Another one.

http://www.thedsmgraveyard.com/CX-Racing-p/cxr-ic0030.htm

http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/da2nc.p7yea/v/vspfiles/photos/CXR-IC0030-2.jpg?1380210035

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[mb7050]

someone could covert the piping on these
http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/65869_x600.jpg
http://www.godspeedproject.com/image/cache/data/intercooler_kit/JETTA_SIDE_MT_IC_4-650x436.jpg
pretty huge core size 7 5/8" high X 8 3/8" Wide X 5 1/8" thick = 327 cu. in
for reference
afaik DSM ic core size : 6 x 8 x 3-7/8" = 186 cu. in
Brand New 00 01 2002 2003 2004 2005 Side Mount Intercooler 1 8T VW Jetta Golf | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-00-01-2002-2003-2004-2005-Side-Mount-Intercooler-1-8T-VW-Jetta-Golf-/181239368822?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a32b54c76&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/6000/i.html?_nkw=Side+Mount+Intercooler+1.8T&_dmpt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_rdc=2
these are widely available for 1.8T VW Jetta Golf. most of them are dirt cheap that first seller for example 136$ each 272$ for two big side mount intercoolers with very nice end tanks. I would guess the conversion would cost around 50-200$ so under 350-500$ one could possibly have very nice big ic's.

[bearded1]

Hmm.. maybe I just made that up. I am like 95% sure he offered 2 pipe sizes. Maybe one was stock and one was slightly bigger but not 2"? How long ago did you talk to him?




Had to go to the other site to check... That was in May. But you're right, he does offer two sizes, stock, and 1.75" (to mate to DN pipes).

When asked about 2" piping this is what he had to say:

"Doing it in 2" makes things just too tight. Besides there's just not enough room on the drivers side to pass them through without modification to the passthru, I like to keep things simple for everyone..."

[mb3000]

I'm sure if you explained what y'all are trying to do and put a little extra coin in his pocket he would be willing to do it.

[bearded1]

My thought exactly, but I didn't really press it when he didn't want to.

Maybe he would if several people had their own DSM's and wanted the same thing.

Sent from my Nokia Lumia using Tapatalk

[mb7050]

dsm smics are just a very very mild upgrade over stock IMO
OEM 3000gt: 7x8x2.6= 146 cu. in
DSM : 6 x 8 x 3-7/8" = 186 cu. in

[Greg E]

dsm smics are just a very very mild upgrade over stock IMO
OEM 3000gt: 7x8x2.6= 146 cu. in
DSM : 6 x 8 x 3-7/8" = 186 cu. in

I thought I read that somewhere. Was trying to find the specs. I knew they weren't that great.

[anyonebutme]

Bigger than the $1500+ HKS upgrade.

[mb7050]

you sure about that ?

afaik the hks core size is 8.5''x8''x2.75'' = 187 cu.in

for comparison
OEM 3000gt: 8x7x2.6= 146 cu. in
DSM : 6 x 8 x 3-7/8" = 186 cu. in
HKS : 8.5''x8''x2.75'' = 187 cu.in
Dejon : 8''x8.75''x4'' = 280 cu.in (as they were before)
Dejon : 8''x8''x3.5'' = 224 cu.in (as they are now)
Gene : 8x10"x4.5" = 360 cu.in
Alamo : 6"x8 3/4"x 6" = 315 cu.in

[mb3000]

Nope.

From MVP Motorsports:

Part # HK 1301-SM008
HKS offers twin intercoolers with mandrell bent intercooler pipes to ensure the least amount of restrictions possible throughout the intercooler system as compared to a press bent pipe. The kit is 200x216x65mm x 2 and is to be located in the factory locations. This kit will help keep your turbos up to 11º cooler. This kit does not include any piping, please see this section for the HKS Hard Pipe Kit.
MSRP $1,775.00
Your Price $1,508.00

[2fnloud]

OK but I can not see the 1 cu.inch making them 1500 better then the DSM converted.

[2fnloud]

you sure about that ?

afaik the hks core size is 8.5''x8''x2.75'' = 187 cu.in

for comparison
OEM 3000gt: 8x7x2.6= 146 cu. in
DSM : 6 x 8 x 3-7/8" = 186 cu. in
HKS : 8.5''x8''x2.75'' = 187 cu.in
Dejon : 8''x8.75''x4'' = 280 cu.in (as they were before)
Dejon : 8''x8''x3.5'' = 224 cu.in (as they are now)
Gene : 8x10"x4.5" = 360 cu.in
Alamo : 6"x8 3/4"x 6" = 315 cu.in

200mm = 7.87402 inches
216mm = 8.50394 inches
065mm = 2.55906 inches

Is only 171.35 cu.in. I Don't know where the 186 cu.in. is coming from.

[R/T93]

I have the hks sidemounts and they are superb for anything other than autocross on hot days and even then all I need is my garden sprayer. They go from 130's to 70 in minutes after spraying them down a few times.
I did 3 drag passes in 8 minutes and they were lukewarm.
I do track days and they have always been adequate.

I know I'm only ~300 awhp but when I upgrade to ~450 I will have water injection to keep things cooler still.

From the phone.

[mb7050]

I don't remember anymore I gathered some of the data over 5 years ago but IIRC somebody measured them. could be a typo.. HKS too is very mild upgrade over stock.

[2fnloud]

Not knocking their efficiency, but their listed volume is incorrect.

[j2k4]

shameless plug

I've got a set of DSM SMIC and Stock SMIC's for sale. :p

I say to you, in my best Sellers/Clouseau voice:

"Not anymore..." :D

[NOMIEZVR4]

Sold to the highest bidder!!!! :D

[bearded1]

I don't remember anymore I gathered some of the data over 5 years ago but IIRC somebody measured them. could be a typo.. HKS too is very mild upgrade over stock.




Mild upgrade as far as core volume, but I don't think the gains are directly linear to volume in this case. Not to mention (as per the side tangent we're on of intercoolers) the increased volume of the cores PLUS the addition of larger piping, and the flow gain and diminished pressure drop that come with, they should make a fairly sizeable gain and be more than adequate for most people's needs. And likely for everyone running TD04 class turbos, except maybe the guys on the very bleeding edge.



Jake

[GTOJOE]

you sure about that ?

afaik the hks core size is 8.5''x8''x2.75'' = 187 cu.in

for comparison
OEM 3000gt: 8x7x2.6= 146 cu. in
DSM : 6 x 8 x 3-7/8" = 186 cu. in
HKS : 8.5''x8''x2.75'' = 187 cu.in
Dejon : 8''x8.75''x4'' = 280 cu.in (as they were before)
Dejon : 8''x8''x3.5'' = 224 cu.in (as they are now)
Gene : 8x10"x4.5" = 360 cu.in
Alamo : 6"x8 3/4"x 6" = 315 cu.in

From memory my ARC's are very close to 8"x8"x4" which is approx 256 cu.in

Also almost all of this has been discussed before.

http://www.3sgto.org/3000gt-stealth-gto-related-topics/3801-why-dont-we-have-good-side-mount-option-yet.html

[GTOJOE]

you sure about that ?

afaik the hks core size is 8.5''x8''x2.75'' = 187 cu.in

for comparison
OEM 3000gt: 8x7x2.6= 146 cu. in
DSM : 6 x 8 x 3-7/8" = 186 cu. in
HKS : 8.5''x8''x2.75'' = 187 cu.in
Dejon : 8''x8.75''x4'' = 280 cu.in (as they were before)
Dejon : 8''x8''x3.5'' = 224 cu.in (as they are now)
Gene : 8x10"x4.5" = 360 cu.in
Alamo : 6"x8 3/4"x 6" = 315 cu.in

From memory my ARC's are very close to 8"x8"x4" which is approx 256 cu.in

Also almost all of this has been discussed before.

http://www.3sgto.org/3000gt-stealth-gto-related-topics/3801-why-dont-we-have-good-side-mount-option-yet.html

[GTOJOE]

Pics of pipes as promised.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/Mobile%20Uploads/20131226_124724_zpsioleqjt7.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20131226_124724_zpsioleqjt7.jpg.html)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/Mobile%20Uploads/20131226_124746_zpsz56l3uor.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20131226_124746_zpsz56l3uor.jpg.html)

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm289/1STGENGTO/Mobile%20Uploads/20131226_124804_zpsncyvzfs4.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/1STGENGTO/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20131226_124804_zpsncyvzfs4.jpg.html)

As you can see they connect up to the factory IC hoses. Stock oil cooler still in place. Coolers mounted using the factory mounting points.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[NOMIEZVR4]

FMIC's FTW...:p

[JasonY]

Only when installed and you dont notice it and you live in a climate where it doesnt severely effect your cooling system at low speeds with the a/c on.

Clearly the simplest solution is to chop the car off at the headlight buckets, tube it, and v-mount the IC and radiator, rad will discharge under the car and IC through the hood.

:)

Jason