DR750's V1 guess the dyno

[kywhitelightning]

Appointment is for December 5. The car is completely together and as of today has zero issues so this is not a hype thread. I have 2 hours scheduled on a Dynojet (Battleground) strickly for power pulls up in Atlanta. I will start with pump 93 plus meth injection and once I feel it's close I'll have 5 gallons of C16 to pour in. It will be pushed hard. Complete mod list below.

TIaL DR750's with ported exhaust housings
Forge WG actuators
IPS street heads
Stock cams and gears
MckeandVR4 rods
3SX Ross pistons w/8.5:1 CR
Clevite bearings
Dejon preturbo intakes
CX Racing FMIC
3.5" GM MAF
MAF Translator Gen 2 zeroed out
Flashed ECU via Chrome
Top Speed precat eliminators
3SX shorty downpipe
Maximal test pipe
IPS Quad tip V2 I think
Aeromotive Stealth pump
Kenne Bell BAP set to 15%
Aeromotive adjustable fuel pressure regulator set to 43.5 psi
PTE 680 injectors
Snow Performance VC 100 meth controller
Devils Own pump
Twin DO14 meth nozzles
Mishimoto radiator
Mishimoto fans w/shroud
Custom front end ducting
GZP oil cooler with a 4" fan
Custom fuel rail loop
Maximal solid trans, front, and rear mounts.
3SX poly engine mount
HKS DLI
PST 1 piece CF DS
Streamln1 solid rear subframe bushings
GZP poly front subframe bushings
Pampena AWS delete
3SX ABS delete
Blitz DSBC
Kuhmo Ecsta 225/45/18R's which are actually slightly taller than stock

If there are any other setup questions that I may have missed fire away. This setup is significantly faster than my old 19T setup.

Jeff

[mb3000]

Everything looks great, just confused about the 225's?

[FeaRpb]

I say high 5's

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

660...

[PearlWhiteR/T]

If you push it really hard.. Nearing 680 maybe. If you don't I'd say 630.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Awesome thread! I'm really excited for you, with the amount of time and how meticulous you are I have no doubt you will do well. With that being saI'd I'm guessing 630-640awhp.

[Toni]

637! 637!

[NOMIEZVR4]

637! 637!

I told Jeff 638 earlier...:p

[TurboSinceBirth]

If you push them past 30 psi and have enough fuel for it provided the turbos are making more power I'll hope for 680AWHP also.

[kywhitelightning]

I say high 5's

Thanks for the bode of confidence, lol

[kywhitelightning]

Everything looks great, just confused about the 225's?

That's a great question. When I first bought the car I went to a local wheel shop and picked this design of wheel. They had all the specs from the car and the factory wheels in front of them. Somehow the salesman goofed and ordered 7.5" wide wheels instead of 8.5". When they arrived, they didn't test fit the wheels for brake clearance and just mounted the tires. After finding out the front calipers required and additional .75" to clear he offered to get me wheel spacers for it at no extra cost. Me being an auto dummy at the time (yes, like everyone else here, owning and building a 3S has taught me a lot) I never questioned the wheel size or the fact that there was a wad of rubber sticking out beyond the wheel giving it a truck tire look. They mounted the 245/40/18's to a 7.5" wheel and it looked like shit.

He had the spacers custom made, at least that's what he told me, with the lugs built into them. The spacers bolt to the hubs and the wheels bolt to the spacers so no real extra stress on the studs. There may be a little extra on the actual hub bearings because the mounting point has now moved out 1" but it has been like that for going on 6 years now.

Back on track, they put the 245/40/18 wheel/tire combo on the car and while I didn't care for the way it looked I figured I would drive it home like that and see if it would grow on me. It didn't, and I went back complaining about the look. They worked with me because pretty much once I drove away I accepted the package. They basically sold me another set of tires at cost and put the "stock size" tires on the old stock wheels. They went through test fitting a couple tires before I was satisfied with the way they looked. That got me what I have today, 225/45/18's on 7.5" wide wheels.

I buy the highest traction rated tires that Kuhmo sells and they stick pretty well in the heat.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

If you push them past 30 psi and have enough fuel for it provided the turbos are making more power I'll hope for 680AWHP also.

So far testing on the street with race gas I have gone to 28psi. The gains started to diminish so I stopped adding boost. This was with the DSBC set to 93 in GA summer heat. It hasn't had the race gas in it since the weather changed.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

Not intended to give a sleeper impression.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/IMAG0942_zps4df1bed5.jpg

Jeff

[FeaRpb]

Thanks for the bode of confidence, lol

I always over shoot these guesses, so this time I under shot it.

[arm0red1]

v1 with the 11 blade turbines?

640-660 - max most likely



9 blade =

680 awhp on max kill, or at least thus far.

[kywhitelightning]

Yes, V1 11 blade design.

Has someone made 680 on the 9 blades?

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

You don't have traction issues going WOT in 2nd or 1st?

Have there ever been any factual dyno evidence of 12 vs 11 vs 9 blade wheels or is it all just heresay? Anyone except sinsvr4?

[kywhitelightning]

Only 1st so far. 2nd gets touchy feely depending on the amount of bumps in the road. The cooler weather really effects these tires performance. They are VERY sticky in the heat.

Jeff

[Unlogic]

591 at the flywheel.

[J. Fast]

595whp SAE. 625whp uncorrected. The weather in Atlanta tomorrow will be 1500 feet below sea level hehe. Oh my god I would dream to feel my snails hit at -1500 ft. So jealous man, good luck!

[kywhitelightning]

595whp SAE. 625whp uncorrected. The weather in Atlanta tomorrow will be 1500 feet below sea level hehe. Oh my god I would dream to feel my snails hit at -1500 ft. So jealous man, good luck!

Can you link some info you used to get this DA?

I know where I am located near Ft Benning my elevation is 300ft. I don't know what Atlanta's elevation is. Battleground is just north of Atlanta in Smyrna if your handy calculator can find that. I would assume anything under 0 would be covered with water.

Jeff

[surreal]

There are places that are physically below sea level, but they obviously can't be on the coast :)
However, DA is the relative density of the atmosphere which is affected by weather so it can easily be below sea level even if the ground physically isn't.

Density Altitude Forecast for Atlanta Dragway (http://www.airdensityonline.com/trackForecast.php?trackname=Atlanta%20Dragway&bar=29.426429015143)

[kywhitelightning]

I also want to clear the air here as there have been some not so good reviews from tuning done at Battleground. Their sole purpose in this adventure is to provide the testing equipment. I built my car from the ground up. There was nothing subcontracted out here. Everything put together with my hands and polished with my hands. That being said I am the only tuner to destroy it, if it happens. They require one of their people operate the car on the dyno and that is the ONLY thing they will do. I feel right now the tune is set for both pump and race gas. I will simply raise the boost pressure with the race gas added.

The timing map is fairly aggressive and since Greg E has enabled the CEL to come on at a preset knock count through Chrome, the driver will be instructed to pull out as soon as he sees it light. We will then go back and reevaluate what needs to be done. I scheduled 2 hours to tweak if needed but I feel I will only need 5 pulls max. 2 on pump and 2 with race gas added and maybe 1 more if not convinced it's at the edge. This is a raised compression engine so seeing 30psi is probably not going to happen. I won't write off the idea of it but once I feel it's getting close I'll stop and hopefully enjoy my drive back home he he.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

There are places that are physically below sea level, but they obviously can't be on the coast :)
However, DA is the relative density of the atmosphere which is affected by weather so it can easily be below sea level even if the ground physically isn't.

Density Altitude Forecast for Atlanta Dragway (http://www.airdensityonline.com/trackForecast.php?trackname=Atlanta%20Dragway&bar=29.426429015143)

Thanks for that!!! I think the appointment was for 3PM. They have a 1.5 month lead time for scheduling dyno time so it was scheduled nearly a month ago as of today. Thanksgiving pushed it out a little further so I snatched the earliest date that fit my schedule and theirs.

Jeff

[oohnoo]

Great mod list. Car looks tits. How's the car feel? Only thing holding you back that I can see would be the 680 injectors.....

[kywhitelightning]

Great mod list. Car looks tits. How's the car feel? Only thing holding you back that I can see would be the 680 injectors.....

Thanks!!! It is an absolute hoot to drive. Like I said before it is SIGNIFICANTLY faster than my old 19T setup. It's very rigid because nearly the entire powertrain is solidly mounted.

The injectors run at 67-68% DC up top according to evoscan (I never actually crunched the numbers). 1600ml/min straight methanol helps a little in that department

Jeff

[familyMAN]

What compression ratio you running in engine?

[ICPREY]

I also want to clear the air here as there have been some not so good reviews from tuning done at Battleground. Their sole purpose in this adventure is to provide the testing equipment. I built my car from the ground up. There was nothing subcontracted out here. Everything put together with my hands and polished with my hands. That being said I am the only tuner to destroy it, if it happens. They require one of their people operate the car on the dyno and that is the ONLY thing they will do. I feel right now the tune is set for both pump and race gas. I will simply raise the boost pressure with the race gas added.

Jeff

Do your own tuning and watch the operator closely. Not sure if you've seen George Benson's thread on the other website. George does have some bad luck, but I've also had my own experiences with Battleground. I had them install an AEM EMS on my old 95 Vr4 in 07 and their master tuner Dan charged me 16hrs (dyno hrs) to tune it and the car ran like shit. It would idle @10.6 and 10.0 @ WOT. A very bush league operation..

[kywhitelightning]

What compression ratio you running in engine?

8.5:1


Do your own tuning and watch the operator closely. Not sure if you've seen George Benson's thread on the other website. George does have some bad luck, but I've also had my own experiences with Battleground. I had them install an AEM EMS on my old 95 Vr4 in 07 and their master tuner Dan charged me 16hrs (dyno hrs) to tune it and the car ran like shit. It would idle @10.6 and 10.0 @ WOT. A very bush league operation..

Yes, I read his thread. I asked if they would let me drive it but, they said no. Top Speed would not grant a "tuning session" as they only offered the three power pulls and get off. I've done the 3 pulls and get off elsewhere before and it's a joke. I like paying for time so they won't rush me. Battleground offered time so they get the business. Regardless of reputation they are the closest Dynojet facility and as long as the driver obeys the CEL everything will be fine. I will be watching over his shoulder and haven't posed the question yet but, would like to be in the car during the pulls. At least then I can watch the loggers.

Jeff

[CoopKill]

Interested in seeing where the 680's get you on pump/meth.

[familyMAN]

590awhp.

[kywhitelightning]

590awhp.

:rolleyes3:

[familyMAN]

So prove us wrong;) Have you posted a VD graph and I missed it?

[NOMIEZVR4]

Ohhh...the tension!! :D

[familyMAN]

:rolleyes3:

I'll raise to 640awhp if you go beyond 28psi. For some reason I thought this was going to be 93 plus meth only. Didn't catch it was c16 plus meth.

Instead of "rolling eyes" at any guess below what you think, why don't you dyno then post what it is....or a VD graph to give us something.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Yeah...I know Jeff can provide VD graphs..:) You may be surprised...its pretty healthy.

[Greg E]

I want to see this car blow the Chrome ECU dyno record out of the water! Right now its at 600whp.

[CoopKill]

VD 700+ :suspect:

[J. Fast]

VD 700+ :suspect:Seems like that would be high for a TD-04. When you start winding it up the reversion and heat gets really wild. Hard to say the hot side can take it. Unless he can push past 35psi I don't think we'll see 700. It's like an EVO wheel so 20psi-500 25psi 550 30psi 600 32psi 625ish. The big danger is crystallizing the exhaust dumps when you start making all the heat from the over exerted tiny exhaust frame.

[kywhitelightning]

Posting VD graphs really defeats the purpose behind a "guess the dyno thread". I have posted pertinent mods and have entertained any questions to the best of my ability. IMHO, any guess below 600 is bogus when stock engine 750 cars in draw through are making that. To familyMAN, that deserves a roll of the eyes coming from someone's opinion I really respect on here but you also didn't read all the details so I guess shame on you, lol. Now, stating pump plus meth numbers under 600 are more than welcome because I do live in reality. This car is blow through, built heads, a FMIC kit that won't restrict it like stock IC plumbing and IC's, you might as well say wide open exhaust, and will be pushed on race gas. All that being said, here are two pulls from tonight as requested. These are temp AND baro corrected. I have for the longest time had a hard time believing VD DJ graphs because they just seemed to be inflated. I have only been correcting with temp up until today. I have been using the virtual dyno as the dyno for my graphs because they are 1.00 CF vs the DJ's 1.09 CF. Baro correction really brought these to where I feel they should be and these graphs I actually believe are close. Can you believe that Nomie? LOL. Uncorrected netted a +30HP bump FWIW. Pump 93 plus meth only.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/FamilyMANspumpgasVDgraphs_zpse449947a.jpg

Had a couple counts of knock up top on the red graph but, negligable in the grand scheme of things other than the timing it pulled out. It flickered the CEL light and that was it. The light is set to 5 counts. The blue pull had 3 counts and then went away. No light on that one. These pulls were done 3 minutes apart on my 2 favorite interstate spots. The blue was the second one.

I need to come up with a better way to get the meth delivery more consistent. The logs both read the similar IDC's and seeing as boost was very close the meth injection has to be the difference in AFR. The other thing to make mention is that these turbos like to surge in 3rd pretty bad under 3800-4000RPM in WOT. I have been trying to see if I can get away with pulls a little earlier in the RPM band but I don't think it'll happen. Once the RPM's climb they settle down but if I simply start the pulls from 4000 they are clean.

For the mathematicians out there, my MAF Translator logger has seen up to 672 g/s of airflow (not these pulls) that I have actually logged. I really don't log it too much anymore. It slows the logging rate a little on evoscan I think, and the translator is zeroed so nothing really important there anyway. I didn't log it this summer at all when I was leaning on it hard with the C16 added but, recently the conversation sparked interest to see a correlation between Hz read from the ECU's logs vs the actual g/s the MAF sensor is showing on the Translator.

I'm really hoping the weather will cooperate on the actual dyno day because this car is something else when the weather is right. J.Fast really hit the nail on the head when he brought DA into this thread. You can really tell in the seat of the pants when the weather is good and when it turns to crap. Tonight was a dreary night IMO based on the seat of my pants. I really feel for you guys at elevation. You're missing out on a lot of fun lol.

Jeff

[familyMAN]

I also took some off my guess for issues. Seems rare that you can show up on kill without the dyno demon messing something up.

Wish you would've made this thread closer to the dyno date...now we have to wait too long!! Can't you move your dyno for me?;)

[familyMAN]

Can you post one of the same graphs with smoothing at 1?

[Greg E]

I'm really hoping the weather will cooperate on the actual dyno day because this car is something else when the weather is right. J.Fast really hit the nail on the head when he brought DA into this thread. You can really tell in the seat of the pants when the weather is good and when it turns to crap. Tonight was a dreary night IMO based on the seat of my pants. I really feel for you guys at elevation. You're missing out on a lot of fun lol.

Jeff

This is where load based boost control from Chrome triumphs over any aftermarket boost controller out there.

[HellBringer]

If it's not too late, I would suggest booking at least another hour on the dyno -- that 2 hrs goes by real quick when you want to tweak and wait for cool-down between runs. Once you've done all your tuning pulls it's nice to let the car cool down a bit and do one last glory pull to validate things haven't changed between heat soaked pulls and a more 'regular' temp. Also keep in mind the dyno will not load the engine the same as the road, so you'll need to make some carefully-monitored street pulls afterward before you can really beat on it without worry.

[kywhitelightning]

I also took some off my guess for issues. Seems rare that you can show up on kill without the dyno demon messing something up.

Wish you would've made this thread closer to the dyno date...now we have to wait too long!! Can't you move your dyno for me?;)

Ha ha, I wish. You really don't know how hard it has been to wait the past month just to post this thread. I scheduled this day near the middle of October!!!


Can you post one of the same graphs with smoothing at 1?

Sure, I'll have it up after I get off work tonight.


This is where load based boost control from Chrome triumphs over any aftermarket boost controller out there.

I really like where this type of control is heading. I am not yet ready to ditch old faithful until I have some good results from other Chrome users. Get it together Nomie!!!!


If it's not too late, I would suggest booking at least another hour on the dyno -- that 2 hrs goes by real quick when you want to tweak and wait for cool-down between runs. Once you've done all your tuning pulls it's nice to let the car cool down a bit and do one last glory pull to validate things haven't changed between heat soaked pulls and a more 'regular' temp. Also keep in mind the dyno will not load the engine the same as the road, so you'll need to make some carefully-monitored street pulls afterward before you can really beat on it without worry.

All the summertime testing I did with C16 was done with a heat soaked engine bay. I purposely drove around in 100* to get things hot prior to doing power pulls. I wanted to push it then and it NEVER showed one count of knock!!! I was highly impressed. I truely believe it is set up more for the C16 added but I simply turn down the BC when the weather doesn't cooperate. That being said it should roll on in kill mode for at least pump gas. The timing is still very aggressive for the high boost stuff.

I have recently been doing pulls up steep hills to simulate the dyno looking for potential problems when I hit the rollers. The only kryptonite that I have found yet seems to have a large part to do with humidity. Last night was just yuck and today the roads are wet, lol. When I dynoed the car in KY I noticed that anomilie. Thanks for the heads up!!

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

Exciting thread...!its nice to see a properly built car coming out from behind the curtains w/out hiding things...it really helps with others going down the same road. :) Best of all, its all results, no hype.

I'm super excited to try the ECUboost function w/high boost and kill mode too...that along with a proper Intake Plenum should REALLY wake things up top...

Nomie

[kywhitelightning]

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/FamilyMANspumpgasVDgraphs2_zps34d04b01.jpg

[familyMAN]

Looks good. If it were my car, I would say its accurate but I have AEM. I don't believe that anyone has confirmed logging stock ecu vs dyno. Wouldn't know why there is a difference but there could be.

[J. Fast]

It's right. look at the boost. 26psi which is around 28psi/29psi gauge. Weather is good and tq is believable. The meth is really helping.

I

[kywhitelightning]

It's right. look at the boost. 26psi which is around 28psi/29psi gauge. Weather is good and tq is believable. The meth is really helping.

I

What do you mean by 28/29psi guage? Those readings were confirmed with a pressure pump to be within .5 psi of actual. I think chrome only has 5 or 6 data points for a 40+ psi range so dead on accuracy will be very difficult to come by but I don't see where there would be a 3 psi difference. Not being defensive but curious as to what made you say that?

I do have another MAP sensor after the IC and before the MAF and TB and it is seeing 28-29. I guess that is what you are talking about.

Jeff

[Greg E]

What do you mean by 28/29psi guage? Those readings were confirmed with a pressure pump to be within .5 psi of actual. I think chrome only has 5 or 6 data points for a 40+ psi range so dead on accuracy will be very difficult to come by but I don't see where there would be a 3 psi difference. Not being defensive but curious as to what made you say that?

I do have another MAP sensor after the IC and before the MAF and TB and it is seeing 28-29. I guess that is what you are talking about.

Jeff

He's talking about how MAP sensors are usually off because they are absolute sensors not relative sensors. Barometric pressure isn't detected on an absolute sensor therefore there is always an offset between what you see on the laptop and what you would see on a mechanical gauge (hence the term "gauge" pressure).

[HLxDrummer]

Don't they calibrate themselves, or is that in the software? My STRI gauge recalibrates every time power is removed.

PS What made you get a Focus? Looking to make a Chrome ECU for a growing platform ;)?

[Greg E]

Don't they calibrate themselves, or is that in the software? My STRI gauge recalibrates every time power is removed.

PS What made you get a Focus? Looking to make a Chrome ECU for a growing platform ;)?

No the map sensor itself doesn't self-calibrate.

Long story behind the focus. I just needed a DD.

[Greg E]

JFast do you know of any 5V KPA sensors (barometric pressure sensors) that read really high pressures?

[J. Fast]

JFast do you know of any 5V KPA sensors (barometric pressure sensors) that read really high pressures?
I'm only familiar with auto style baro sensors. I'm sure there's something out there for aircraft or dive vessels tho. I'm using an Infineon 236 sensor baro comp on my AEM. It ranges from 40kpa to 170ish? 0-5v. A good rule to setup baro comp is 50% fuel at 1/2 SAE and double barometric pressure double fuel. It's not exactly a linear function however, its close enough. I happen to be fortunate in that the highest paved road in the US is in Colorado. On occasion the DA is around 18,000ft or roughly 50% baro of sea level. I've also driven to sea level and obtained an actual so my baro comp is on point :).

This is actually pretty darn accurate. Use the bottom.

http://www.skyrunner.com/img/g_o2_fig2.gif

[Greg E]

I can write a code that will recalibrate a map sensor before you turn the key (engine not rotating = 0 Psi, reference that point as the off set) but the problem is it won't re-adjust itself if your elevation increases/ decreases as you drive.

It would be nice to just install a true KPA sensor that is good for say 1000whp at 35psi and forget about map sensors and their inconsistencies all together but it seems no such thing exists. :(

[kywhitelightning]

He's talking about how MAP sensors are usually off because they are absolute sensors not relative sensors. Barometric pressure isn't detected on an absolute sensor therefore there is always an offset between what you see on the laptop and what you would see on a mechanical gauge (hence the term "gauge" pressure).

I was taught 0 absolute = -14.5 guage. 14.5 absolute = 0 guage. 29 absolute = 14.5 guage. You get the point. I guess that only applies in a perfect world. Ours obviously is far from perfect or I guess at least baro dependant. Thanks for the lesson fellas. I had to google it to get it to sink in but now I follow lol.

Jeff

[anyonebutme]

What is your definition of high pressure? 500 bar enough?

[Greg E]

What is your definition of high pressure? 500 bar enough?

I very highly doubt anyone would go over 300kpa. That's something like 43psi gauge pressure.

[kywhitelightning]

I very highly doubt anyone would go over 300kpa. That's something like 43psi gauge pressure.

300kPa is 29psi.

0kPa = -14.5 psi. 100kPa = 0psi. 200kPa = 14.5psi. 300kPa = 29psi.

Jeff

Edit: Those values are relative to whatever you are reading, guage or absolute. Since everyone here with the exception of J.Fast speaks guage, I guess I'll say guage.

Absolute is just that, absolute. No skew factor. Guage is skewed based on atmospheric conditions but the entire scale is shifted so they will correlate the same.

[Toni]

Since they are both units of measure...you should add what they are relative to otherwise you will confuse people reading it without context.

[J. Fast]

Haha, you guys are funny. For a barometric pressure sensor you really only need a range of 50kpa to like 120kpa.

Sea level KPA is 100. 2000ft under sea level is like 120kpa. 20,000ft above sea level is like 50kpa. I don't know about you guys but I don't plan on driving at 20000 feet above sea level or 2000 feet below sea level very often. I don't think you need a barometric pressure sensor out of those ranges unless you're flying or on a freaking submarine :p

[Greg E]

Haha, you guys are funny. For a barometric pressure sensor you really only need a range of 50kpa to like 120kpa.

Sea level KPA is 100. 2000ft under sea level is like 120kpa. 20,000ft above sea level is like 50kpa. I don't know about you guys but I don't plan on driving at 20000 feet above sea level or 2000 feet below sea level very often. I don't think you need a barometric pressure sensor out of those ranges unless you're flying or on a freaking submarine :p

So what's the KPA inside the intake plenum at say 40psi of boost on a large turbo?

What I was getting at is replacing the traditional MAP sensor with something that is both relative and has a long range to detect pressure changes a wild as inside the intake.

[anyonebutme]

what would be the point of that? Unless I'm not seeing what you are getting at, a "kpa" sensor is just a map sensor........they are both just simple pressure transucers, everything else is handled on the software side.

If you need realtime baro compensation, you'd need 2 sensors. Otherwise you are stuck with compensation at key on before the engine starts.

[Greg E]

what would be the point of that? Unless I'm not seeing what you are getting at, a "kpa" sensor is just a map sensor........they are both just simple pressure transucers, everything else is handled on the software side.

If you need realtime baro compensation, you'd need 2 sensors. Otherwise you are stuck with compensation at key on before the engine starts.

...or I should just stick with a Hotwire MAF that's an air mass sensor because its easier. :/

[anyonebutme]

Or just having a map sensor pre-turbo like stock and screw people who wanna log things like boost, lol

[J. Fast]

what would be the point of that? Unless I'm not seeing what you are getting at, a "kpa" sensor is just a map sensor........they are both just simple pressure transucers, everything else is handled on the software side.

If you need realtime baro compensation, you'd need 2 sensors. Otherwise you are stuck with compensation at key on before the engine starts.

Sometimes its just not that simple. Say I want to drive my car from the base of Pikes Peak to the summit and maintain a specific manifold kpa. You need the second sensor to baro comp for boost. You can't baro comp with 99% of electronic boost controllers or manual boost controllers like a Hallman and etc. You also can't trim timing. As you go up in elevation the air gets lighter, in so that it weighs less and you can add timing. The stock ECU baro comps like 5 degrees of ignition advance in Colorado. You want baro comp to be real time and not just a startup lookup so you can maintain horsepower/engine output in every condition at every elevation.

Back to the Pikes Peak example, say you were in a 300hp car and baro referenced at the start line... without a second sensor and real time barometric pressure comp you would make 200hp at the top but still have the same ignition timing and run really rich because there's no open loop fuel comp in the stock ECU tuning strategy.

AEM EMS which is based off GEMS is not a real speed density system in-that its "plug and play" with a MAP and AIT installed it does not comp for barometric pressure. You have to re-tune when you change elevations. Add 25% fuel to sea level and pull 25% at the top of Pikes Peak. If I drove from one extreme to the other at wide open throttle without stopping for reference I would blow my engine.

[J. Fast]

So what's the KPA inside the intake plenum at say 40psi of boost on a large turbo?What I was getting at is replacing the traditional MAP sensor with something that is both relative and has a long range to detect pressure changes a wild as inside the intake.You need two sensors to do what you're asking and to maintain the stock barometric pressure boost comp. A 1bar MAP sensor for baro comp is suffice and a 5bar MAP sensor is more than adequate fir 99.99% of 3/S.

[anyonebutme]

Sometimes its just not that simple. Say I want to drive my car from the base of Pikes Peak to the summit and maintain a specific manifold kpa. You need the second sensor to baro comp for boost. You can't baro comp with 99% of electronic boost controllers or manual boost controllers like a Hallman and etc. You also can't trim timing. As you go up in elevation the air gets lighter, in so that it weighs less and you can add timing. The stock ECU baro comps like 5 degrees of ignition advance in Colorado. You want baro comp to be real time and not just a startup lookup so you can maintain horsepower/engine output in every condition at every elevation.

Back to the Pikes Peak example, say you were in a 300hp car and baro referenced at the start line... without a second sensor and real time barometric pressure comp you would make 200hp at the top but still have the same ignition timing and run really rich because there's no open loop fuel comp in the stock ECU tuning strategy.

AEM EMS which is based off GEMS is not a real speed density system in-that its "plug and play" with a MAP and AIT installed it does not comp for barometric pressure. You have to re-tune when you change elevations. Add 25% fuel to sea level and pull 25% at the top of Pikes Peak. If I drove from one extreme to the other at wide open throttle without stopping for reference I would blow my engine.

It actually is that simple, greg doesn't have AEM, he has chrome, and he wants realtime baro correction. two choices: 1. pre turbo MAP or 2. two sensors. Everything else is highschool physics. FYI, HKS boost controllers are baro compensated and so is their gauge readout. That's the entire reason for the MAP sensor on the head unit.

[CoopKill]

This thread is starting to making me tingle all over....

[vr4tune]

I was just having this conversation with the tuner at PRE here in Portland.

[J. Fast]

It actually is that simple, greg doesn't have AEM, he has chrome, and he wants realtime baro correction. two choices: 1. pre turbo MAP or 2. two sensors. Everything else is highschool physics. FYI, HKS boost controllers are baro compensated and so is their gauge readout. That's the entire reason for the MAP sensor on the head unit.
It actually is that simple, greg doesn't have AEM, he has chrome, and he wants realtime baro correction. two choices: 1. pre turbo MAP or 2. two sensors. Everything else is highschool physics. FYI, HKS boost controllers are baro compensated and so is their gauge readout. That's the entire reason for the MAP sensor on the head unit.

If you were reading what he said he applauds stock boost control because it's baro compensated. He also reveres Chrome V.2 for speed density so there is only one option for him. (2) MAP sensors.

With the addition of an HKS electronic boost control, congratulations in making a Chrome ECU setup more expensive than an AEM with internal boost control and two MAP sensors. It sort of detracts from one of the acclaims of ECUFlash, cost.

Nothing new... It's already been resolved on EvoM and added to ECUFlash/ECU Link Wiki. It also has an auto tune function and simultaneous MAF reference to MAP for speed density airflow calculating. If you want as good as it gets a real 3-D soultion Here's what it looks like in ECU Flash :).

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/attachment-1_zps8c789716.jpeg

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/attachment-2_zpsde280ac3.jpeg

[Greg E]

Nothing new... It's already been resolved on EvoM and added to ECUFlash/ECU Link Wiki. It also has an auto tune function and simultaneous MAF reference to MAP for speed density airflow calculating. If you want as good as it gets a real 3-D soultion Here's what it looks like in ECU Flash :)

Yeah but there are issues with it. Mainly low rpm & minor throttle changes. Pretty sure I know why this happens (has to do with what we are talking about in that there's a difference between absolute and relative pressure sensors). That's why I was looking into designing a SD setup that only used a Baro sensor like the Padjero EVO and Mirage back in the late 90s.

[CoopKill]

What is the draw for SD? Most things I have read point to it being a bitch to tune, and cranky with weather?

There are the stories of "I have, so it is the greatest". So unsure where to store my opinions of it.


Sent from the CaveMan Cave!

[Greg E]

What is the draw for SD? Most things I have read point to it being a bitch to tune, and cranky with weather?

There are the stories of "I have, so it is the greatest". So unsure where to store my opinions of it.


Sent from the CaveMan Cave!

Think of it like this:

Speed Density says, "at this MAP and this RPM, Load should be X, so IPW = Y". Simpler than MAF, yes, but if we make a change that affects VE (Load) at some rpm, there is no open loop compensation. SD doesn't work well without a lot of fiddling around.

Mass Airflow says, "at this MAF and this RPM, Load = X, so IPW = Y'. Unlike SD, it has some open loop compensation capability, but in return requires the unit to operate in only one housing to which its calibrated and looses resolution when you wish to get high HP numbers.


It is all a matter of give and take - sacrifice something to gain something else. As to which works best for any specific application is a combination of practicality and personal preference.

[CoopKill]

On phone so no thanks button, but Thanks!


Sent from the CaveMan Cave!

[J. Fast]

What is the draw for SD? Most things I have read point to it being a bitch to tune, and cranky with weather?

There are the stories of "I have, so it is the greatest". So unsure where to store my opinions of it.


Sent from the CaveMan Cave!

There is significant benefit from metering pressure and temperature post turbo. The stock MAF configuration is completely blind to post intercooler temp and pressure. There is no accounting for inefficient turbos or backpressure until you relocate post I/C.

[Greg E]

Keywords are everything. Just found something called an MRP sensor. Stands for Manifold Relative Pressure sensor. :)

[J. Fast]

Keywords are everything. Just found something called an MRP sensor. Stands for Manifold Relative Pressure sensor. :)

Hrmm... Show me! I wonder what they do? Sounds very interesting.

[Greg E]

Trying to get more details on it. Sounds like I can't just buy one without signing up to become a dealer...

[fastfalcon94]

Think of it like this:

Speed Density says, "at this MAP and this RPM, Load should be X, so IPW = Y". Simpler than MAF, yes, but if we make a change that affects VE (Load) at some rpm, there is no open loop compensation. SD doesn't work well without a lot of fiddling around.

Mass Airflow says, "at this MAF and this RPM, Load = X, so IPW = Y'. Unlike SD, it has some open loop compensation capability, but in return requires the unit to operate in only one housing to which its calibrated and looses resolution when you wish to get high HP numbers.


It is all a matter of give and take - sacrifice something to gain something else. As to which works best for any specific application is a combination of practicality and personal preference.


I run speed density in aem v2 and find it really easy. It has an o2 target table and allows for fuel corrections even in open loop. You build your target table with the afr you want to hit based on load/rpm, set a min/max adjustment for o2 feedback, then build your fuel table. You can initially set the min/max adjustment kind of high to help build the fuel table too. You just log the feedback, target, and o2 and if you see it's adding 9% fuel to hit your target at this load/rpm range, then you go to that section in the main fuel table and increase the amount of time the injectors are open for. Then repeat and you should see less of a correction. When you get the correction percentage down kind of low (say 5%) corrections you are good. You can adjust your min/max amount to be lower. You don't want to just rely on the feedback/target table and not build your fuel table because if the wideband sensor died it would really screw things up.

I ran a maf in blowthru before and I will never do it again. With the hot days/cool nights I would get moisture condensing in my intercooler and piping. If a drop of water hit my maf it would cool it right down and cause my car to buck. My friend had the same problem with his dsm before he switched to speed density. Fortunately for him though in dsmlink you could tell the ecu to ignore the maf and he'd do a few pulls to clear out the pipes.


And for purposes of the thread I will say 681 hp, 694 torque.

[kywhitelightning]

I ran a maf in blowthru before and I will never do it again. With the hot days/cool nights I would get moisture condensing in my intercooler and piping. If a drop of water hit my maf it would cool it right down and cause my car to buck. My friend had the same problem with his dsm before he switched to speed density. Fortunately for him though in dsmlink you could tell the ecu to ignore the maf and he'd do a few pulls to clear out the pipes.


I have been running blow through with GM MAFs for years and the only bucking I have EVER experienced was from too much water in the W/M mixture. This would be much more pronounced on rainy days. Since I went to straight methanol, I have had ZERO bucking issues even in the the rain.

We have very high humidity levels here in GA and I have never had such an occurance happen.

I tried WW fluid with HEET and it would randomly buck even on dry days. Next I went to M1 with a 50/50, then 30/70, then 20/80, and then even 10/90 mix W/M and it would buck on rainy days every time I went into boost. I had my meth setup at the time off a switch so I tried turning the meth off and the BC down and walla, no bucking. Straight methanol injection now and no issues all year long. A big part of this may also have to do with the volume of injection I run because even at a 10/90 mixture I believe I was putting too much water into the engine causing the bucking.

The downfall of a MAF is it's ability to see the air while making big power. I'm not sure if I'm maxing the MAFs or it's turbulance causing it but, the airflow numbers in boost move around quite a bit. I would expect a maxxed sensor to go static and I haven't seen that yet but the 3.5" sensor stays smoother much higher in airflow than the 3" did. I want to say I got an extra 50-70 g/s of good resolution before it would begin to get nutty again (over 500g/s). Either way I'm at airflows over 100 g/s over those numbers so it really doesn't matter and I'm not going to swap another sensor in.

Thanks for trying to keep us on track with the guess!! I certainly put way too much lag time out there for this. Oh well, less than two weeks away, lol.

Jeff

[CoopKill]

So the water hitting the sensor itself caused the bucking? If injecting post maf in blow thru there should be no issue?

[vTaKwiTHsLiCkS]

My guess 674AWHP/683AWTQ on a dynojet.

[fastfalcon94]

For KYWhiteLightning his spray caused the bucking. For me though, I wasn't even running meth at the time. So it was from condensation. I could see it too. Before the track sometimes I would remove the pipe after the intercooler and use a towel to soak up any visible water and then stick a hair dryer in it for 10 minutes..

[J. Fast]

So the water hitting the sensor itself caused the bucking? If injecting post maf in blow thru there should be no issue?

As long as your intercoolers don't condensate. Also, injecting in either post or pre is good because meth evaporates.

[kywhitelightning]

One week away. Checked the weather and it's supposed to rain:(. I'm hoping the weather man is wrong but both at home and in Smyrna there's a 60% chance.

Jeff

[futurevr4man]

thats a 40% chance it wont! ;)

Im thinkin mid 6's... like 653hp, and maybe 674tq. either way, ill bet its a riot!

[kywhitelightning]

Ha, your optimism must be working, down to a 30% chance in both places.

Jeff

[mb3000]

Ha, your optimism must be working, down to a 30% chance in both places.

Jeff

:popcorn:

[kywhitelightning]

Since I feel the cat's out of the bag already I figure I'll add this to the thread, especially since the dyno day is getting close and the weather has done a complete turn around (probably because of Nate's optimism lol). The forecast will be nearly perfect as the precipitation chance went down to 10%. A high of 66* will also favor good power (I'm hoping it'll get into the 50's but I doubt it will).

The weather was more cooperative tonight. This is a temp and baro corrected graph. Still pump 93 + 1600ml/mil injection rate of pure M1. 69% IDC up top with the gas. I doubt I will run out of gas on the dyno but I have a BAP and lots of room with the AFPR. Like I said before, when the weather is right, this car is a freaking blast!!!!!! During this pull I logged airflows in the 650g/s area on my translator logger and was just a touch over 4700Hz seen by the ECU. This also pulled 2* of timing away up top but didn't trigger the CEL. With C16 even in the 100* heat this summer and this timing map, it never showed 1 count of knock and poured the timing to it so I am confident the race gas pulls will be crazy.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/VDonpumpplusmethwithgoodweatherbeforedyno_zps17b37 569.jpg

This is the UNCORRECTED version of the same run. This is why I have made posts on this board discrediting the validity of Virtual Dyno using the DynoJet correction factor. Although, when you input the weather variables it brings the graph to where it should be IMHO. Here is a fantastic website I have found to get local weather information past tense so you can enter this critical data into VD to get IMHO believable graphs. Weather History for Columbus, GA | Weather Underground (http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCSG/2013/11/19/DailyHistory.html) Enter your city and the date in question and it gives a 24 hour chart at the bottom which contains everything needed for VD. The baro makes a huge difference for all of us that are fortunate by being near sea level. Enjoy this FALSE graph ha ha.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/VDonpumpplusmethwithgoodweatherbeforedynouncorrect ed_zps250a502c.jpg

Jeff

[HellBringer]

I don't dispute the numbers, since they seem in line with the hardware. The curves look pretty unrealistic, though. Power continuing to climb past 7000RPM, and still making almost 500WTQ in that range is not a trend you will typically see with stock cams.

[Greg E]

Yeah try not to get your hopes too high.

[kywhitelightning]

I stay grounded and I believe it'll be somewhere between 590-610 on pump + meth weather permitting. The reason I posted this chart is to show what GOOD weather does for it. Like I said before on the first chart I put up, the weather then wasn't great but familyman wanted a graph and I drove the car that day. The weather was good last night and it showed. Funny thing is that you didn't disput the way HP stayed on the first graph and it followed the same trend as this recent graph but because the numbers were higher you claim cams won't let that happen. This motor whether it's the tune or the hardware 19T's or the 750's has always seemed to make less TQ than HP but holds TQ deep into the revs which delivers good HP numbers.

Dyno day will tell the story and I'm sure even then there will be skeptics because Matt or Ray didn't do it.

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

screw the naysayers..don't worry about them. To even have something close to a well built and reliable 600whp 3/s car is a feat in itself...ask me, I know..:p

[HellBringer]

Not sure who you're referring to, but as I stated, I don't dispute the numbers -- I think 6xx should definitely be attainable based on the build. I do, however, think it's unlikely that you'll be making close to 500WTQ at or above 7000RPM as the log suggests. I think that might be a first for any TD04 setup...

[NOMIEZVR4]

Not sure who you're referring to, but as I stated, I don't dispute the numbers -- I think 6xx should definitely be attainable based on the build. I do, however, think it's unlikely that you'll be making close to 500WTQ at or above 7000RPM as the log suggests. I think that might be a first for any TD04 setup...

Oh its not you..:p People gave him shit back in the day on the forums..I was referring to that...:)

I've got cams and although I don't think I'll hit those peak numbers due to having different turbos I wouldn't mind that kinda powerband myself...hopefully we can make good on a well designed intake plenum..

[kywhitelightning]

Not sure who you're referring to, but as I stated, I don't dispute the numbers -- I think 6xx should definitely be attainable based on the build. I do, however, think it's unlikely that you'll be making close to 500WTQ at or above 7000RPM as the log suggests. I think that might be a first for any TD04 setup...

I honestly hope it'll be the first to a couple of different sets of statistics:icon23:. I haven't ran race gas in it since the weather has cooled off and truthfully don't have a clue what it will be capable of. It is cool to hear some of the opinions out there and I don't recall you joining in on the fun. Care to add your thoughts/guess?

Jeff

[TT Eric]

Not sure who you're referring to, but as I stated, I don't dispute the numbers -- I think 6xx should definitely be attainable based on the build. I do, however, think it's unlikely that you'll be making close to 500WTQ at or above 7000RPM as the log suggests. I think that might be a first for any TD04 setup...

when I dynoed my car, the wastegates were opening and I was loosing my boost, from 30psi+ to 25-26psi, that would explain the drop in power in the higher range.

Eric

[NOMIEZVR4]

when I dynoed my car, the wastegates were opening and I was loosing my boost, from 30psi+ to 25-26psi, that would explain the drop in power in the higher range.

Eric

This is where ECUboost will change the game...:)

[CoopKill]

This is where ECUboost will change the game...:)

Oh do not stop there! Please go on for my gain in knowledge.

[kywhitelightning]

FamilyMAN has posted some fantastic VD graphs displaying what Nomie is referring to. He is using AEM but the theory is the same for chrome users. Instead of boost leveling up top or falling off, duty cycle is increased effectively raising boost pressure up top where the cams will lower your VE. This will offset TQ fall off and also raise or maintain HP up top as long as you haven't found the knock threshold.

Jeff

[familyMAN]

FamilyMAN has posted some fantastic VD graphs displaying what Nomie is referring to. He is using AEM but the theory is the same for chrome users. Instead of boost leveling up top or falling off, duty cycle is increased effectively raising boost pressure up top where the cams will lower your VE. This will offset TQ fall off and also raise or maintain HP up top as long as you haven't found the knock threshold.

Jeff

^this. I also did it to keep tq down at peak tq. I hit 20psi after spool up and then ramp it up to 25-27psi. If I used a manual boost controller or EBC I would have hit at least the 27psi at peak tq to make the 27 up top. That would have made an additional ~100awtq which is a lot more than I wanted on stock rods. ECU controlled boost gives you so much control!

[KeithMac]

How's it gone?, I run a 3" GM maf in blow through and have topped it out. It doesn't flat line like I'd hoped and just goes ape-sh17 and the air HZ can vary 500hz between counts.

I'm going back to draw through with a 90mm maf to see how that fairs.

Speed Density will never have the accuracy of MAF over all conditions, the rely on closed loop O2 control to get the target aft bang on. I was amazed how repeatable my afrs were with the GM MAF and hope the 90mm in draw through will do the same.

[KeithMac]

How's it gone?, I run a 3" GM maf in blow through and have topped it out. It doesn't flat line like I'd hoped and just goes ape-sh17 and the air HZ can vary 500hz between counts.

I'm going back to draw through with a 90mm maf to see how that fairs.

Speed Density will never have the accuracy of MAF over all conditions, the rely on closed loop O2 control to get the target aft bang on. I was amazed how repeatable my afrs were with the GM MAF and hope the 90mm in draw through will do the same.

[fastfalcon94]

True I forgot it was the 5th today. Hoping to see some nice numbers. Be sure to compare the virtual dyno pulls to what the dynojet reads too. I'm curious for my sake:)

[NOMIEZVR4]

bump!!

[mb3000]

In for results!

[futurevr4man]

C'mon Jeffry! Quit holding out on us!!

[Unknownvr4]

I'm in for results. And to see if I could get a ride before I leave back for Louisiana ;)

[kywhitelightning]

Not holding out at all. I just got home. I actually believe I goofed while there and am really iffy about posting what I have. I'm pretty sure what happened today was a BIG no no and the dyno hounds will most likely confirm what I believe to be true. I have never been one to purposely post false info so I'll ask first, doing pulls in 3rd gear is a no no correct? The numbers seem way inflated for the, at best, shitty weather we had today. I asked the guys there if it would be a bad thing to do the pulls in 3rd and they said they didn't know why not. Also at the NG this year Von ran the cars, at least my car, in 3rd and claimed that was the gear he likes to use. I, like most here, am learning so bear with me. The dyno is something I am not as familiar with as I would like to be. I know there is a gear reduction difference between 3rd and 4th but I asked them if the dyno will pick up on that or not, kind of like how Virtual Dyno will do 3rd or 4th. We don't truely have a 1:1 gear ratio but I would at least like to ensure a fair playing field is maintained, especially if I post these graphs. I think it makes a huge difference. If not, then there is a new TD04 HP record but if there is then I don't have anything worth posting.

The overall experience today was crap though as the "dyno demon" came out to play, and wreaked havok on the activities. The weather was terrible to say the least.

The car drove home without issue so no harm no foul there. There was however a massive AFR difference on the dyno vs the street and boost control was crap. There was 1 clean pull out of 5 that boost leveled and it made it all the way to 6800RPM. The pump gas pulls had small issues but once I added the race gas the demon came to play. It acted like the plugs were fouled and had either spark blowout or maybe even some bucking going on. I wonder if I had too much octane in there and not enough timing? In my head that makes sense but it may sound like hogwash to someone else.

I did a couple unlogged pulls once we were within walking distance of the house and it seemed fine so I don't know if I need to do anything to it or not. I also added 6 gallons of 93 on top of what was in the tank to dilute the C16 a little once we left the dyno. There was quite a heavy dose in there once I added it to the tank, probably close to 1:1 of 93 to C16.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

I'm in for results. And to see if I could get a ride before I leave back for Louisiana ;)

Where are you located?

Jeff

[Unknownvr4]

Where are you located?

Jeff

In a hotel in Duluth until Saturday.

[fastfalcon94]

Wouldn't you want to do pulls in 3rd? I mean, if you are racing your car or at the dragstrip, that is the gear you will spend most of your time in. If you do a pull in 4th you are doing what 150+?

[kywhitelightning]

That's quite a long way away but if you can get to Columbus then that'll be fine. I have a couple cars to work on tomorrow and then Saturday evening I have to go to work so we'll need to work around that.

Jeff

[Alex3000gt]

My understanding is that doing the dyno pulls in a highest gear possible is better because you will take more time to get from a low RPM to redline. So instead of going from 3,000 to 7,200RPM in 1 second you get there over the span of several seconds resulting in more resolution. All of that 1:1 gear ratio stuff is nonsense, because after the final drive you are nowhere near 1 to 1 engine speed to wheel speed.

You just want to be in as high of a gear as possible to help weed out the transient effects, with the limiting factor being dyno roller speed.

Just my thoughts, I'm not a dyno or tuning expert.

[kywhitelightning]

Wouldn't you want to do pulls in 3rd? I mean, if you are racing your car or at the dragstrip, that is the gear you will spend most of your time in. If you do a pull in 4th you are doing what 150+?

Yup, but like I said if they can be validated then ther is a new HP record. I don't want to claim that without the concensus agreeing as it is a tall task to make big power and I certainly wouldn't want to attemp to tarnish the record. We, Batlground and I, have already talked about strapping it back down for a dyno day session to try it again. Today's session took 1.5hrs and I got 5 pulls. I paid $200 for that. Dyno day is 3 pulls and get off and that is $35. I will be figuring a way to get this thing to act properly on the dyno yet but I really believe the AFR is going to be nearly impossible to get right because of how the methanol is delivered. It may be pooling up because of the volume injected and with the dyno loading the car differently it isn't consuming it the way it should. Thinking about it that way makes it easier to maybe understand why it was acting up with the race gas because I turned the boost up which injected more methanol and it may have been too much. IDK, I'm just thinking out load or in writing lol.

To officially answer your question about VD vs the dyno, yes there is a significant difference between the two. No comparison at all.

Jeff

[Unknownvr4]

That's quite a long way away but if you can get to Columbus then that'll be fine. I have a couple cars to work on tomorrow and then Saturday evening I have to go to work so we'll need to work around that.

Jeff

Man, your right, that's quite a drive. I was hoping you were closer, but that's ok. Thanks anyway.

My friend just moved here from Louisiana and is also a 3S owner so maybe you'll be seeing him around.

[kywhitelightning]

My understanding is that doing the dyno pulls in a highest gear possible is better because you will take more time to get from a low RPM to redline. So instead of going from 3,000 to 7,200RPM in 1 second you get there over the span of several seconds resulting in more resolution. All of that 1:1 gear ratio stuff is nonsense, because after the final drive you are nowhere near 1 to 1 engine speed to wheel speed.

You just want to be in as high of a gear as possible to help weed out the transient effects, with the limiting factor being dyno roller speed.

Just my thoughts, I'm not a dyno or tuning expert.

I really like that take on our final gearing and I was looking at that on the stealth316 site. Thanks for that input and this is IMHO the highest gear I want to try this at because 4th on the street with these turbos is useless when it comes to putting your foot to the floor. I have tried to see how far back in the RPM band I could go to avoid compressor surge in 3rd and have found that 3500RPM is iffy at best, 3800 usually works, and 4000 creates solid pulls on the street.

A 4th gear pull starting at 4000RPM would put me at jail time and very dangerous for street testing. It's worthless to even try on the street. Of course the top of 3rd is the same in the eyes of the law but 110-120 is much slower than 150.

Jeff

[ICPREY]

I talked to Matt Monet on 3si about what gear to use on the dyno and he said 3rd is the proper gear for our cars. He mentioned a 4th gear pull taking too long and causing heat soak. I thought it was 4th gear as well..

[kywhitelightning]

I talked to Matt Monet on 3si about what gear to use on the dyno and he said 3rd is the proper gear for our cars. He mentioned the pull taking too long and causing heat soak. I thought it was 4th gear as well..

Thank you for that!!!! I respect his opinion when it comes to dynos and if you could link this conversation that would be fantastic!!

Jeff

[ICPREY]

Whats holding me back, tire, leaks, or me - Page 6 - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f35/whats-holding-me-back-tire-leaks-me-578641/index6.html#post6959793)
post #53..

[Greg E]

Jeff, do you have my phone number? In cases like this, I don't mind phone calls. :)

4th gear will show you higher numbers (usually) than 3rd gear pulls but I've heard from many dyno owners say 3rd is better due to less heat soak from the pull being a shorter time.

[kywhitelightning]

That's one source. It is certainly not making 1000, lol. From the way he described, it doesn't matter much. Thanks!!! Curious as to what gear Ray uses as well? I now have Von using 3rd and Matt using 3rd, sub 1K. I'm sure Hellbringer will have an opinion as I would love to hear his too. When I went to IPS years ago I used 4th mainly because I thought 4th was the "norm". My old 19T's didn't have the surging problems these turbos do. Hell I had to create an antisurge kit to keep the dang thing driveable in the cooler winter months.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

Nope send me a PM

Jeff

[CoopKill]

Pretty sure 3rd gear as well. That is what they dyno'd mine with...

Post it UP!!!!

[FeaRpb]

You are breaking my balls here

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[fastfalcon94]

Here is a youtube video of ray dynoing a car. It starts from the beginning and you can clearly see him shift into 1st, 2nd, then 3rd and do the pull.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsGSImR9oRY

[J. Fast]

3rd on a 5 speed and 4th on a 6 speed.

[kywhitelightning]

I'll prep the pump gas only pull. It's not a record or at least I don't think it is. This is pump + meth BTW.

Jeff

[mb3000]

Hell, post 'em both!

[kywhitelightning]

Here is a youtube video of ray dynoing a car. It starts from the beginning and you can clearly see him shift into 1st, 2nd, then 3rd and do the pull.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsGSImR9oRY

Sideskirts give me the impression that's a 1st gen.

Jeff

[fastfalcon94]

video of Ray in his 6 speed in 3rd gear doing pull lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LL4zxo3xk

[kywhitelightning]

Winpep is beyond me. I got HP to display but no TQ. Or I can get weather data. Help.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

video of Ray in his 6 speed in 3rd gear doing pull lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LL4zxo3xk

That's a second gen. I'm apparently fresh out of thanks so, thanks.

Jeff

[J. Fast]

I think what we're about to witness is another meth inflated dyno chart. Hellbringer has a hard time believing the power output of the chemical induction process with meth. Don't be shy Jeff. Just post it man. CK UPP broke a 1000whp on a single that hellbringer swore it was impossible to do it with a sea level because the turbos max output rating was 800hp. He did it because he injected a fuckton of meth on top of ethanol just like Chris hill. Abraham was wrong and I pretty much take all he has to say about tuning and what he thinks he knows to the toilet.

[kywhitelightning]

I'll have to upload pictures because I haven't the slightest idea of how to put TQ on this damn thing. Good thing I told them to give me the hard copies, lol. They sent the files through email so I just need to understand what I am doing to get the display right in Winpep.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

This is pump + meth. The CF is DIN and when I went to SAE in Winpep it dropped to 613 HP so nothing really wrong there I guess.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/PumpRun2_zpsa6652247.jpg

Jeff

[J. Fast]

I'll have to upload pictures because I haven't the slightest idea of how to put TQ on this damn thing. Good thing I told them to give me the hard copies, lol. They sent the files through email so I just need to understand what I am doing to get the display right in Winpep.

Jeff

I have Dynojet Winpep on my lappy atm. email it to me at fasttmotorsports@live.net and I'll post it.

EDIT: nevermind you figured it out.

[kywhitelightning]

Don't let the AFR fool you. The graph is showing the tailpipe at the tip. The NB's were hanging around .93 and the WB was mid 11's and below which is NOT what this thing is used to. On the street the NB's read .85 and the WB will be in the mid 12's. The race gas pulls got worse and I think that was a big contributor to the dyno demon issues.

Jeff

[J. Fast]

Post it up in Standard and SAE. bring up the smoothing to 5 too.

[kywhitelightning]

I have Dynojet Winpep on my lappy atm. email it to me at fasttmotorsports@live.net and I'll post it.

EDIT: nevermind you figured it out.

No they sent me the screenshots/jpeg also, but I want to know how to work Winpep. Like I said I am learning still.

Jeff

[J. Fast]

Don't let the AFR fool you. The graph is showing the tailpipe at the tip. The NB's were hanging around .93 and the WB was mid 11's and below which is NOT what this thing is used to. On the street the NB's read .85 and the WB will be in the mid 12's. The race gas pulls got worse and I think that was a big contributor to the dyno demon issues.

Jeff

There's nothing wrong with the afr. Meth usually peaks at 12.5-13afr. Meth over ethanol or high octave fuel often peaks over 13. On boosted SBC's almost 14:1afr (grab your sack scary huh) :).

[anyonebutme]

Jeff, do you have my phone number? In cases like this, I don't mind phone calls. :)

4th gear will show you higher numbers (usually) than 3rd gear pulls but I've heard from many dyno owners say 3rd is better due to less heat soak from the pull being a shorter time.

on an eddy dyno 3rd and 4th don't take any more or less time, the computer controls the ramp. 4th winds the speed close to the limiter of the dyno on some cars. Von ran in both 3rd and 4th back to back and put down identical numbers. By theory 3rd will show a higher HP number if the gear ratio isn't programmed in.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Pretty active thread late at night, huh fellas? :p

So the pump gas pulls seem inline with what the predictions....the crappy weather dropped the numbers some...plus the o2 readings were off some... but its totally believable. What seems to be the issue? If anything the graph is showing the car being underpowered...regardless... Congrats :)
Another 600+whp 3000GT...but this one is self built and self tuned...not something you see everyday.

and the race gas pulls had some issues....oh well. Seems like it was a good outing to me...car is still together, made gobs of power and there is proof... start posting threads!! :D..haha

Nomie

Jeff...if you really wanna see how fast it is...find yourself a GTR or a z06/zr1 and run em from a 35 roll...RECORD IT...that will give you a good indication of where you really stand...

[kywhitelightning]

There's nothing wrong with the afr. Meth usually peaks at 12.5-13afr. Meth over ethanol or high octave fuel often peaks over 13. On boosted SBC's almost 14:1afr (grab your sack scary huh) :).

Not sure if you understand me or I am misreading your post. This car DOES NOT LIKE 11'S AFR. On the street it does best at 12.5ish and 13 has happened without ill effect. I brought it back down to 12.5 because I would prefer not to melt the pistons. 11's bring problems. I'm really not sure how I can create a "dyno tune" so this thing will be happy on the dyno in 3 pulls for the next dyno day that they are doing. I believe completely that is the issue. Too much methanol sitting in the intake in boost because it is pushed in at a flow rate based on boost. The pump gas pulls were ok probably because boost really didn't creep much past 22psi:eek5:. The controller is set to peak near 25ish so on the race gas pulls adding boost added methanol into a motor that had a hard time consuming the previous delivery rate was all bad.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

on an eddy dyno 3rd and 4th don't take any more or less time, the computer controls the ramp. 4th winds the speed close to the limiter of the dyno on some cars. Von ran in both 3rd and 4th back to back and put down identical numbers. By theory 3rd will show a higher HP number if the gear ratio isn't programmed in.

Thanks!!!

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

Here's the jaw dropper. As predicted big power and small TQ. It broke up and the driver pulled out. I WILL go to a dyno day of theirs with a tune that hopefully can make this car act correct on the rollers but I will need to pull a lot of gas out in the tune to do it. Big thanks to everyone who gave me confidence to post this as I really do not like posting ANYTHING that may appear false. I'll get some videos loaded up next. Is there any interest in seeing all the pulls or do the "big 2" suffice?

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/PumpplusRace1_zps77efb927.jpg

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

SAE was 680 in Winpep as an FYI.

Jeff

[J. Fast]

No they sent me the screenshots/jpeg also, but I want to know how to work Winpep. Like I said I am learning still.

Jeff

Click on Tools>Environment Options

Highlight "Advanced Mode" and "Show Complete Channel List on Graph".

Then click [save current settings] then [ok]

Now click on Tools>Graph Options>Properties

When you open Graph Options folder click the tab that says "Axis Selections"

Put Horsepower on the left, Torque on the Right and RPM on the bottom.

There you go :)

[kywhitelightning]

While I'm uploading videos I want to thank the driver, I think his name was Justin. I gave him a VERY specific set of instructions to follow and he followed them to a tee. I wouldn't have done it any better if I was in the drivers seat. I have a trunk mounted meth system and I have found that on the street it needs a bit of priming to get a clean pull fresh off. In the videos it will show as it hesitates a bit prior to the pull. That is priming and nothing else. I also told him to start the pulls near 4000. I warned him of the surging and while I'm not sure the videos will show it, at the beginning of one of the pulls he heard the surging, got out of it, let the turbos settle down, and proceeded with the pull. Picture perfect!!! Big thanks for keeping my baby together!!

Jeff

[J. Fast]

Ahh, almost forgot when you click

Tools>Graph Options>Properties>Axis Selections

Once you select the axis for power\tq\rpm you have to check the box that says "apply settings to current graph"

If you want to see boost and afr you click

Tools>Graph Options>Properties

Under the general tab Select "Number of Graphs" 2

Then repeat the axis selection step an put boost on the left and afr on the right.

You can then go to the main page and custom dimension the 2 graphs.


Numbers look great man, Congrats!

[kywhitelightning]

Pump plus meth pull.

Pump2_zps47b83d45.mp4 Video by jjd222002 | Photobucket (http://s495.photobucket.com/user/jjd222002/media/Pump2_zps47b83d45.mp4.html)

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

Pump plus meth plus race gas.

PumpplusRace1_zpsf0ef155b.mp4 Video by jjd222002 | Photobucket (http://s495.photobucket.com/user/jjd222002/media/PumpplusRace1_zpsf0ef155b.mp4.html)

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

Ahh, almost forgot when you click

Tools>Graph Options>Properties>Axis Selections

Once you select the axis for power\tq\rpm you have to check the box that says "apply settings to current graph"

If you want to see boost and afr you click

Tools>Graph Options>Properties

Under the general tab Select "Number of Graphs" 2

Then repeat the axis selection step an put boost on the left and afr on the right.

You can then go to the main page and custom dimension the 2 graphs.


Numbers look great man, Congrats!

Thanks J, got it working now.

Jeff

[KeithMac]

Did you log Airflow Hz output from the MAF-T by any chance. You said it feels like slight misfire at higher boost, this is exactly what mine felt like when topping out the 3" MAF.

Worth a look and if it is acting strange don't push the car again until you get it sorted.

My car drives like a dream under 20 psi but as soon as you exceed the limit it gets confused very quickly, I think in blowthrough the MAFs will hit the limit earlier too.

[Greg E]

on an eddy dyno 3rd and 4th don't take any more or less time, the computer controls the ramp. 4th winds the speed close to the limiter of the dyno on some cars. Von ran in both 3rd and 4th back to back and put down identical numbers. By theory 3rd will show a higher HP number if the gear ratio isn't programmed in.

Makes sense!

Jeff.... I'm speechless.

[J. Fast]

Here's the jaw dropper. As predicted big power and small TQ. It broke up and the driver pulled out. I WILL go to a dyno day of theirs with a tune that hopefully can make this car act correct on the rollers but I will need to pull a lot of gas out in the tune to do it. Big thanks to everyone who gave me confidence to post this as I really do not like posting ANYTHING that may appear false. I'll get some videos loaded up next. Is there any interest in seeing all the pulls or do the "big 2" suffice?

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/PumpplusRace1_zps77efb927.jpg

Jeff
The wavy lines is infact knock retard Jeff. It could just be the ECU picking up engine noise and yanking you back. If there's a way to turn off knock control or adjust the noise filter in Chrome... do it and it should smooth out. Otherwise, dial the timing back and quiet the engine down.

[fastfalcon94]

This thread is full of win! I fell asleep refreshing the page last night waiting for you to post graphs lol You still put down some real good numbers even though you said the car wasn't running up to it's full potential like it does on the street. You've got me excited to work on my car now that I have your surge fix but our roads are all salted and it's snowy out:(

A few questions though

Why do you have to prime the meth pump exactly? You are saying it just takes a long time for the initual meth to reach the intake? Couldn't you just start spraying it a little earlier? What range do you have it spray? It's one of the new recirculating style pumps right?

So you target 12.5 afr on a 90/10 meth mixture? I'm targetting around 11.6 now on 50/50. Maybe I shoud use a little more meth and go a little leaner.

Do you have any logs of your pulls so we can see what your ignition timing looks like? Also virtual dyno graphs? You said they were nothing alike. Which one yielded higher results?

JFast mentioned using a smoothing of 5 as well, but in the pic it says "Smoothing 5" in the top right corner. Is it normal for all the little up/down blips with that smoothing level? Kind of looked like the car was hopping up/down a little on the dyno vids too.

- Charlie

[Greg E]

No, the stock ECU doesn't retard timing, then bring it back. I've never witness any kind if behavior like that from knock retard. It'll pull the timing then keep pulling till the knock is completely gone or you reach the retard limit. This just kills the power.

Flaky boost controllers on the other hand....

[J. Fast]

Those 50hp/tq peaks and valleys are a good degree or two of timing adjustment.

[mb3000]

Awesome numbers!

[Greg E]

Those 50hp/tq peaks and valleys are a good degree or two of timing adjustment.

There again, the stock ECU doesn't behave in that manner. It never adds, then takes away, then adds it back.

[HellBringer]

I think what we're about to witness is another meth inflated dyno chart. Hellbringer has a hard time believing the power output of the chemical induction process with meth. Don't be shy Jeff. Just post it man. CK UPP broke a 1000whp on a single that hellbringer swore it was impossible to do it with a sea level because the turbos max output rating was 800hp. He did it because he injected a fuckton of meth on top of ethanol just like Chris hill. Abraham was wrong and I pretty much take all he has to say about tuning and what he thinks he knows to the toilet.


LOL! Seems I’ve gotten under your skin, calling me out completely unprovoked..? The artist formerly known as “drmbldr” -- the pathological liar with multiple aliases and multiple bans, who’s even gone as far as to fabricate dyno sheets for the sake of argument, has the gall to call out my credibility..!? Now that is good comedy. You, sir, are a joke and a troll with zero credibility, and zero relevance; any respect you think you may have garnered here is by those ignorant of your past…

A few highlights:

Drmbldr, JeremyVR-4 a sincere apology. - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/drmbldr-jeremyvr-4-sincere-apology-480647/)

Must Read!!! 19T's are the best turbo for a 3.0L or 3.1L 3000GT - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f35/must-read-19ts-best-turbo-3-0l-3-1l-3000gt-462606/)


That said, although I’m morbidly curious to get your purple-sky take on how meth injection alters the physics/physical properties of a turbocharger, I will not be engaging you any further in this thread.

And FWIW, my name is not “Abraham”….

[Greg E]

The Lincoln appears... :)

[NOMIEZVR4]

HellBringer cracks me up...haha..:D

So what are your thoughts about this??

[HellBringer]

I have some thoughts, but I’m pressed for time at the moment so I’ll chime back in later.

I think the oscillation in the curve is boost-related, simply by the ‘look’. Looks to me like the boost controller (Blitz, right?)is bouncing off the limiter over and over. I’ve seen that exact operation on my own cars, on the dyno, with a Blitz EBC.

[Greg E]

I think the oscillation in the curve is boost-related, simply by the ‘look’. Looks to me like the boost controller (Blitz, right?)is bouncing off the limiter over and over. I’ve seen that exact operation on my own cars, on the dyno, with a Blitz EBC.

Same.


No, the stock ECU doesn't retard timing, then bring it back. I've never witness any kind if behavior like that from knock retard. It'll pull the timing then keep pulling till the knock is completely gone or you reach the retard limit. This just kills the power.

Flaky boost controllers on the other hand....

[familyMAN]

3rd vs 4th. HP shouldn't matter. 4th helps laggy turbos spool up quicker and either helps the dyno look better or may match street load better. 3rd may better for you since it sounds like 4th could be a "surge fest."

[kywhitelightning]

Did you log Airflow Hz output from the MAF-T by any chance. You said it feels like slight misfire at higher boost, this is exactly what mine felt like when topping out the 3" MAF.

Worth a look and if it is acting strange don't push the car again until you get it sorted.

My car drives like a dream under 20 psi but as soon as you exceed the limit it gets confused very quickly, I think in blowthrough the MAFs will hit the limit earlier too.

I have "pegged" the 3" at around 450g/s and although it keeps reading increases, it'll certainly cause wild at best AFR's (50g/s swings was not uncommon). The 3.5" allows a higher airflow before "pegging" but somewhere near 500g/s. This setup has logged 672 before and no I didn't log the translator on the dyno because it slows the logging rate down in evoscan.


Makes sense!

Jeff.... I'm speechless.

Your speechless and I'm still grounded, lol.


The wavy lines is infact knock retard Jeff. It could just be the ECU picking up engine noise and yanking you back. If there's a way to turn off knock control or adjust the noise filter in Chrome... do it and it should smooth out. Otherwise, dial the timing back and quiet the engine down.

Flakey boost control is the culprit there. Surging may have happened because of really rich mixtures coming out the exhaust, but that is speculation. When it runs rich, it surges BAD. 1 count of knock came and went in that pull. Timing was held never pulled and of coarse never climbed to where it should have.


This thread is full of win! I fell asleep refreshing the page last night waiting for you to post graphs lol You still put down some real good numbers even though you said the car wasn't running up to it's full potential like it does on the street. You've got me excited to work on my car now that I have your surge fix but our roads are all salted and it's snowy out:(

A few questions though

Why do you have to prime the meth pump exactly? You are saying it just takes a long time for the initual meth to reach the intake? Couldn't you just start spraying it a little earlier? What range do you have it spray? It's one of the new recirculating style pumps right?

So you target 12.5 afr on a 90/10 meth mixture? I'm targetting around 11.6 now on 50/50. Maybe I shoud use a little more meth and go a little leaner.

Do you have any logs of your pulls so we can see what your ignition timing looks like? Also virtual dyno graphs? You said they were nothing alike. Which one yielded higher results?

JFast mentioned using a smoothing of 5 as well, but in the pic it says "Smoothing 5" in the top right corner. Is it normal for all the little up/down blips with that smoothing level? Kind of looked like the car was hopping up/down a little on the dyno vids too.

- Charlie

Meth is 100% M1. No water. The priming happens because the first pull will hang lean a little on the street if not done and a 1st or 2nd gear pull will trip the cel if it is not "primed". The pump is in the trunk along with the tank. The methanol hose all combined is near 15 feet and 3 feet of that is after the soleniod because after the soleniod it splits to go to the 2 nozzles. The soleniod holds pressure when closed but I think the pump doesn't and allows backflow to the reservior to in essence bleed the pressure. The near 3 feet from the soleniod to the intake can either evaporate or be venturi bled by the intake. The priming fixes it and that is a fact. How to make it better is something I am still working on a solution for. I like the trunk mount but it has distinct disadvantages especially with a fast spooling setup like this. On the flip side of that, if I set the onset to earlier and the system is primed it will result in an early rich mixture which will begin the surging process. This is so far the best of all worlds solution I have come up with and am open to new ideas and theories. I have plans to go to one 3/8 feed splitting into two 1/4 lines and unlock a flow restriction. That will come eventually, but for now it works.

I'll post everything up a little later.


No, the stock ECU doesn't retard timing, then bring it back. I've never witness any kind if behavior like that from knock retard. It'll pull the timing then keep pulling till the knock is completely gone or you reach the retard limit. This just kills the power.

Flaky boost controllers on the other hand....

Oh yes it will bring timing back if knock goes away. I have seen it happen. Just 1 count will restric timing from peaking, but once the knock sum stays at 0 for a little bit, I don't know how long, it'll begin pouring the coals to it again.


There again, the stock ECU doesn't behave in that manner. It never adds, then takes away, then adds it back.

See above statement.


I have some thoughts, but I’m pressed for time at the moment so I’ll chime back in later.

I think the oscillation in the curve is boost-related, simply by the ‘look’. Looks to me like the boost controller (Blitz, right?)is bouncing off the limiter over and over. I’ve seen that exact operation on my own cars, on the dyno, with a Blitz EBC.

It is a Blitz DSBC but no it never hit the limiter. The limit was set at 2.05 and IIRC the highest reading was 1.97. I'm not positive on the peak number but it NEVER hit the limiter, I am positive about that.


3rd vs 4th. HP shouldn't matter. 4th helps laggy turbos spool up quicker and either helps the dyno look better or may match street load better. 3rd may better for you since it sounds like 4th could be a "surge fest."

Definitely a surge fest. I appreciate your comment about which gear to use.

Jeff

[mb3000]

Jeff, your problem with the meth is one that I have seen on Supraforums. They remedied this by putting the pump under the hood and leaving the tank in the trunk. Gravity pushes the meth down the hose to the pump, so there is no delay when you start to spray (pump being much closer to the nozzle).

I've got my 300psi pump mounted down below the battery, right in between the rear motor mount & factory fuel filter.

[Greg E]

Each degree of knock relates to about 1/3 degree of timing retard. This is timing taken away from the base map after all other modifiers (AIT, coolant, EGR/purge...).

The only reason you'd see timing pull back and then return is if that behavior was present in your base map.

There's a lot I need to discuss with you about the GM MAF. It's too much for me to post about now but I would definitely like to make time to talk to you over the phone tonight if you're available.

[kywhitelightning]

I waited up all night last night Greggy. I felt stood up lol.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

Jeff, your problem with the meth is one that I have seen on Supraforums. They remedied this by putting the pump under the hood and leaving the tank in the trunk. Gravity pushes the meth down the hose to the pump, so there is no delay when you start to spray (pump being much closer to the nozzle).

I've got my 300psi pump mounted down below the battery, right in between the rear motor mount & factory fuel filter.

That is a doable solution and I'm glad I'm not alone. Pictures pretty please!!!!!

Jeff

[Greg E]

I waited up all night last night Greggy. I felt stood up lol.

Jeff

Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

[mb3000]

I don't have any of my own pictures, but here's one from bboyalan:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/AzNFLiPBoiPiNoY/3kGT/Spring_Project/ff59a8e0.jpg

[kywhitelightning]

I'll probably do that when I do a winter teardown and inspection. As said before I'm out of thanks in this thread so thanks, lol.

Jeff

[J. Fast]

LOL! Seems I’ve gotten under your skin, calling me out completely unprovoked..? The artist formerly known as “drmbldr” -- the pathological liar with multiple aliases and multiple bans, who’s even gone as far as to fabricate dyno sheets for the sake of argument, has the gall to call out my credibility..!? Now that is good comedy. You, sir, are a joke and a troll with zero credibility, and ”….

What, are you like 5 years old or something?

<<< See my face? Grow the f*** up and quit acting like a babbling penis.

Alright Mr smart guy Blitz boost controller with zero professional calibration and tuning experience... Please explain to all of us dumbasses why the afr is oscilating on the racegas pull? If target AFR is 12:1 at 20psi and 12:1 at 30psi then why would any boost inside the target result in a different afr?

If you lock a cell on a steady state dyno and sweep the afr from rich to lean does it impact the horsepower? If you lock the afr and sweep timing does it change horsepower?

Fluctuations in power output are a result of timing. The oscillation in afr leads me me to believe that as the pill is increasing and decreasing in temperature ignition advance is moving with it.

Please go get your dyno chart with your blitz experience so I can wipe my ass with it.

[futurevr4man]

I am pretty convinces at this point that the blitz ebc's are not up to the task of a lot of airflow. Mine worked so well on 19t's but now that I am flowing significantly more air, it isn't up the task. Same thing applies to you.

I am curious, just your personal opinion, how much quicker does your car feel compared to when I rode in it with the 19t's and meth? It pulled dang good back then!

That's great that you are getting good results. I'll probably pick your brain in the future on some tuning stuff. You and I (as well as others I'm sure) are going to be pushing some of the limits of the flashable setup. I'm sure there will be fixes for these limits, but finding them may cause us some grief hahaha

[HellBringer]

I've used the Blitz DSBC to 700+ on a few different cars and have absolutely zero complaints. BUT... that was with external gates. The most I've done with an internally-gated turbo was 450-500WHP. The only time I've had issues with the Blitz has been a result of operator error -- the first was a loose vacuum line on the solenoid, and the 2nd was when I mistakenly had the limiter set too low.


Here's what it looked like with the limiter too low on the dyno:


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/AHPowelson/DSCF5278_zps5e3c3e4d.jpg

^^There you go, drmbldr -- there's your toilet paper. You can print that out and wipe your ass with a true 700WHP dyno. Something you don't have. :Angel:


Now that I've had a chance to look at both for a few sec, the oscillation is slower and less pronounced than OP's, which leads me to believe it's likely not boost related.


Issues aside, the numbers are REDONK..!! :Bow: Please PLEASE take this car to the track and make some mid-130MPH passes. I don't care about the ET, I just want to see the MPH splits!

[kywhitelightning]

I've used the Blitz DSBC to 700+ on a few different cars and have absolutely zero complaints. BUT... that was with external gates. The most I've done with an internally-gated turbo was 450-500WHP. The only time I've had issues with the Blitz has been a result of operator error -- the first was a loose vacuum line on the solenoid, and the 2nd was when I mistakenly had the limiter set too low.


Here's what it looked like with the limiter too low on the dyno:


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/AHPowelson/DSCF5278_zps5e3c3e4d.jpg

^^There you go, drmbldr -- there's your toilet paper. You can print that out and wipe your ass with a true 700WHP dyno. Something you don't have. :Angel:


Now that I've had a chance to look at both for a few sec, the oscillation is slower and less pronounced than OP's, which leads me to believe it's likely not boost related.


Issues aside, the numbers are REDONK..!! :Bow: Please PLEASE take this car to the track and make some mid-130MPH passes. I don't care about the ET, I just want to see the MPH splits!

Thank you. I'll post the logs up along with the VD graphs of the pulls but IDK how I can get this train crash dyno tune correct. It's tit's on the street. The real reason I took it to the dyno was to prove what I know to be fact. I honestly never expected this result especially with the conditions so I can only think the dyno corrected for them. Now that I have tinkered with Winpep a bit I can upload the graphs to show ambient conditions for the pull. That is freaking cool!!!

As far as the track goes I'm quite a ways out from that. I blew quite a wad on this years mods and have to show the wife I can share the budget again, lol. I want to run slicks and do not have the drivetrain to handle it. The trans right now is completely unbraced. I feel a new solution to the bellhousing cracking is coming soon and an endcase is in the plans but I want an 07-08 C6 Z06 bad so funding for this project will be put on hold for the next budgeted year. My oldest daughter (16) will take over my Kia Rio leaving me with no daily so that is my excuse for the Vette. This all won't happen until the end of next year and I'll be putting up a very healthy down payment for the Vette. 2015 I think it'll be on.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

I am pretty convinces at this point that the blitz ebc's are not up to the task of a lot of airflow. Mine worked so well on 19t's but now that I am flowing significantly more air, it isn't up the task. Same thing applies to you.

I am curious, just your personal opinion, how much quicker does your car feel compared to when I rode in it with the 19t's and meth? It pulled dang good back then!

That's great that you are getting good results. I'll probably pick your brain in the future on some tuning stuff. You and I (as well as others I'm sure) are going to be pushing some of the limits of the flashable setup. I'm sure there will be fixes for these limits, but finding them may cause us some grief hahaha

It's MUCH quicker in 3rd. 1st blows the tires from a roll and 2nd is iffy at best with the tires getting tired and the cooler weather. They honestly faired pretty well in the heat but the cold it's slippy.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

One other thing to Hellbringer, I really wish it would've stayed clean to redline because I would have loved to see that elusive TD04 500AWTQ.

Jeff

[HellBringer]

I hear ya, man. I don't want to beat the track thing to death.. But.. You can make easy passes at the track, that would be no more 'abusive' than running through the gears on the street, and learn a LOT about your tune by watching the MPH and your split times. More so than on the dyno in some ways..! That's why I say final ET doesn't matter, but the splits and MPH do. In other words, you don't need to go balls-out every pass with a 20psi 2-stepped launch and NLTS, it's ultimately the MPH that validates the power output. Your trap speeds and splits from 330' on will not be largely swayed by the 60', so you can walk it out of the hole and bang gears down the track and learn just as much from a 13 @ 135 as a 10 @ 135, and it unequivocally validates/proves out the dyno #'s.

[HellBringer]

One other thing to Hellbringer, I really wish it would've stayed clean to redline because I would have loved to see that elusive TD04 500AWTQ.

Jeff


You and me both..! I picked up my 10th and fucking LAST 3/s a few weeks back, and am on the fence about modding it. I'm completely torn, as I planned to leave it stockish, but man these new billets are tempting....

[NOMIEZVR4]

why last??

[CoopKill]

why last??

CUZ Smart? :lmao:

[J. Fast]

I've used the Blitz DSBC to 700+ on a few different cars and have absolutely zero complaints. BUT... that was with external gates. The most I've done with an internally-gated turbo was 450-500WHP. The only time I've had issues with the Blitz has been a result of operator error -- the first was a loose vacuum line on the solenoid, and the 2nd was when I mistakenly had the limiter set too low.


Here's what it looked like with the limiter too low on the dyno:


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/AHPowelson/DSCF5278_zps5e3c3e4d.jpg

^^There you go, drmbldr -- there's your toilet paper. You can print that out and wipe your ass with a true 700WHP dyno. Something you don't have. :Angel

Now that I've had a chance to look at both for a few sec, the oscillation is slower and less pronounced than OP's, which leads me to believe it's likely not boost related.


!
Ehmmbrrmmehmmm... Boy you sure helped Jeff out a lot...
Thank you for posting up results nothing like the issue at hand with Jeff's car. Have any other helpful tuning experience tidbits to share?

For some reason I just visualize you dancing around in a hot dog suit and having a problem shutting the f*** up.

Go do some googling on Wavy Dyno charts and maybe you'll dig up something.

[J. Fast]

Hey Jeff, about 2 or 3 years ago on the EFI University private forum there was a guy who tripped on to some issues with the sampling rate and pick up a rate on a dynapac dyno ( I think that's what it was)? There were two styles of cars that had torque and horsepower oscillations similar to yours. 2 of them were Mitsubishi DSM, and the other one was a small block Chevy or something like that with a crap ton of spray on top.

Ben Strader discovered the clutch and differentials set up in those cars were having a problem playing nice with the Eddy. He had to slow down the sampling rate in order to get better resolution and keep the graph from bouncing around.

Pretty much all chart information with oscillations archive at EFI University is all ignition advance related. I cannot divulge any information from the private areas that I have seen... However, here's a plot very similar to what you are experiencing. That's what they look like.

Wavy Dyno Graphs -V6 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277113)

[kywhitelightning]

The VD graphs from the runs. I turned AFR and Boost smoothing off.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/DynorunsVD_zpsb8e56ef2.jpg

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

I looked over the logs a little tonight and I think I have found one problem. The coolant temp was low. I didn't even look at that when we were there and I think even if I would have, I probably would have ignored it. That will comand some extra gas to be injected. The best pull (the only pull that made it near redline was the pump gas pull and it read a whopping 173. All the pulls after that started in the upper 160's. That is one reason it was richer. Each one getting cooler and cooler and guess what, the misfires started earlier and earlier as the day went on.

Now for the questions. Could too cold of a combustion chamber cause misfires? The plugs are NGK heat range 8. The tune is set to trim in +2% below 180 and under 171 it will trim even more in. Is that enough to cause the richness or are there maybe some other factors at play?

Nomie was asked to post up screen shots of the logs so maybe we can come to a good conclusion together once he gets them up.

Jeff

[Greg E]

Ah! Too cool of a cylinder won't cause a misfire but too rich of an AFR will! You can scale back/disable the coolant temp enrichment in the Fuel section of chrome.

I ran into this on the last car I tuned. Why didn't I think to ask that now?

[J. Fast]

2% fuel correction is nothing, not enough to generate misfires in your case. It's possible you have 1% adder from AIT and another 2% from coolant so that's 3% fuel. I wouldn't think that's enough to impact and cause misfire.


Have you made a couple of pulls uphill and then downhill to see if you can recreate the issue by taking a different load trace thru the basemap?

Maybe it's the ramp-rate of the dyno? Possibly more aggressive than the road conditions you've tuned in or vice-versa. Could be as easy as tweaking a few cells in your basemap you haven't hit before that you were able to hit on the dyno?

Logs will be a big help.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Thanks for letting me post this...:)
Pumpgas Log
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/racegas_zpsdc207362.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/racegas_zpsdc207362.png.html)

Racegas Log
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/ra_zps5a9f517a.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/ra_zps5a9f517a.png.html)

[familyMAN]

How cool were intake temps? Maybe an issue with meth atomization?

Edit: just looked at the logs, wild swings in wideband afr. 10s to 12s in a matter of a couple hundred rpms. I don't see how that would be a coolant temp issue. Wouldn't it be richer in general by a couple %. Also, wouldn't misfires cause a leaner spike then that?

Your map sensor was definitely going up and down but your airflow is pegged 299. Boost would cause power oscillation. Would the Maf sensor not reading the difference in airflow cause the afr oscillation?

[futurevr4man]

my coolant enrichment is about set to zero for the record, jeff. because im running 1200cc injectors, if it enriches it due to a cold startup, the car can barely start and drive.

[Greg E]

How cool were intake temps? Maybe an issue with meth atomization?

Edit: just looked at the logs, wild swings in wideband afr. 10s to 12s in a matter of a couple hundred rpms. I don't see how that would be a coolant temp issue. Wouldn't it be richer in general by a couple %. Also, wouldn't misfires cause a leaner spike then that?

Your map sensor was definitely going up and down but your airflow is pegged 299. Boost would cause power oscillation. Would the Maf sensor not reading the difference in airflow cause the afr oscillation?

299 is the next load limitation in the code. The only thing that effects are table lookups.

Airflow still goes up as it should. When that number levels off and doesn't go any higher, then we are in trouble.

I wonder if the MAF isn't very accurate at that airflow. KY/Nomiez, you guys are both running 3" GM MAFs right?

[NOMIEZVR4]

Nope...I'm running an EVO maf...no issues yet for me but I'm not running as much boost as Jeff. I'm peaking at 22lbs boost...IDK if its holding that till redline or not...I'll have MAP readings soon to confirm though. Plus my car isn't running at the moment..

[Greg E]

Nope...I'm running an EVO maf...no issues yet for me but I'm not running as much boost as Jeff. I'm peaking at 22lbs boost...IDK if its holding that till redline or not...I'll have MAP readings soon to confirm though. Plus my car isn't running at the moment..

Wait... So what are we seeing in the map scaled column?

[NOMIEZVR4]

lol...those are Jeff's Dyno logs...not mine..:p

[kywhitelightning]

How cool were intake temps? Maybe an issue with meth atomization?

Edit: just looked at the logs, wild swings in wideband afr. 10s to 12s in a matter of a couple hundred rpms. I don't see how that would be a coolant temp issue. Wouldn't it be richer in general by a couple %. Also, wouldn't misfires cause a leaner spike then that?

Your map sensor was definitely going up and down but your airflow is pegged 299. Boost would cause power oscillation. Would the Maf sensor not reading the difference in airflow cause the afr oscillation?

You'll never know what IAT's are because the MAFT holds the value static for the ecu. If I logged it it would say 88* regardless if it was 20 below 0 or 200. The maf sensor is supposed to compensate for that so the translator delivers the value I give it and I guess mends the Hz to correct.

Misfires happened when he lifted at the end. KeithMAC has already mentioned how he has logged his hz readings moving around when he and I both believe we are pegging the sensors even though they are still counting higher they go a little whacky with the readings. AFR usually follows the hz and I have to determine what is a bad hz reading and what is actually wrong in the tune. It shows up in the VD graphs I posted as fluctuations in AFR.

The 299 is ecuload. It always has pegged like that. Now that Greg has seen what I have been describing, hopefully we can come up with a solution to see where my ecuload actually is.


my coolant enrichment is about set to zero for the record, jeff. because im running 1200cc injectors, if it enriches it due to a cold startup, the car can barely start and drive.

I think I need to try that. With the 550's in there I NEVER had starting issues. With these things I feel it is close but sometimes it'll still take a little to get it to start. It's really weird and very sparatic behavior.


Wait... So what are we seeing in the map scaled column?

BOOST! It's a manifold absolute pressure sensor scaled. lol

[kywhitelightning]

2% fuel correction is nothing, not enough to generate misfires in your case. It's possible you have 1% adder from AIT and another 2% from coolant so that's 3% fuel. I wouldn't think that's enough to impact and cause misfire.


Have you made a couple of pulls uphill and then downhill to see if you can recreate the issue by taking a different load trace thru the basemap?

Maybe it's the ramp-rate of the dyno? Possibly more aggressive than the road conditions you've tuned in or vice-versa. Could be as easy as tweaking a few cells in your basemap you haven't hit before that you were able to hit on the dyno?

Logs will be a big help.

I actually tried doing a pull up a pretty steep hill here to simulate that without flaw. Unfortunately there was a bump in the road that I think lifted some maybe all the tires causing the VD graph to look hokey. I heard the RPM's ramp when I hit it so it'll be deemed false. I'll post that one up when I get home from work because it just looks cool, lol.

Jeff

[KeithMac]

I'm trying my 3" MAF in drawthrough to see how it reacts at the same loads and then I'll make a decision on where to go from there.

Seen a 3" card style GM MAF (Hitachi made sensor) in a custom tube that looks interesting!.

When I mention "blow through" on efi university forums it always gets shot down, people the do oem calibrations wince at blow through setups..

[J. Fast]

Jeff, what does your base timing map look like? The big one and the high octane one?

Anyone have Jeff's version of GM MAF rescaled to its limit ? What bits do you have on yours Keith?

For some reason in my mind I'm thinking a Hz reading in the 4-5000 range is around 120lbs/min. That really just doesn't seem inline with a manifold pressure of 25psi according the map sensor. Anyone else see that? Are the turbos overspinning from a leak or something? The map reading is overshooting and bleeding off 5lbs of boost every hundred rpms ir so?

[J. Fast]

Wait... So what are we seeing in the map scaled column?
Line 28 on the racegas log shows 26.75 psi of boost pressure in the manifold. If you refer back to jus dyno chart he peaked at 680whp right there. That's freaking amazing at such a low boost on TD-04 turbos!

WOW Jeff, just WOW! Damn near 700whp on a TD-04 around 27psi WOW!

[Greg E]

lol...those are Jeff's Dyno logs...not mine..:p

Oh... I thought these were yours. :lol:

[KeithMac]

I had my 3" MAF in blowthrough, Maf-t set to 740 injectors (basically halving a stock mitsu MAF), on TD04-16gs it would climb to around 1750hz (3500hz if maf-t was zero'd) and then just throw a wobbler.

I tried a couple of 30psi pulls but pulled out when I felt the misfire (looked on logs later and it was same time as MAF readings went odd). 20psi seemed the limit of the 3" GM maf in blowthrough on my setup?.

I've read people have experience similar if there's condensation in the intercoolers (hitting the hotwires), so will see what happens in drawthrough.

[HLxDrummer]

700WHP is just crazy.. Can't believe it. Great work!

PS.. you are getting a C6 ZO6 for a daily? Think you could get me a job at where you work ;)?haha

[fastfalcon94]

That's 680 hp too on pulls that weren't "as good" to what he was used to on the street either. He was running richer than his 12.5ish target. IDK how much power difference that could make, but I am curious.

[kywhitelightning]

I'm trying my 3" MAF in drawthrough to see how it reacts at the same loads and then I'll make a decision on where to go from there.

Seen a 3" card style GM MAF (Hitachi made sensor) in a custom tube that looks interesting!.

When I mention "blow through" on efi university forums it always gets shot down, people the do oem calibrations wince at blow through setups..

I would like to put a slot style sensor in the pipe and be done with it. The fact that it is a 3" pipe coupled up to a 3.5" sensor and then coupled back down to a 3" pipe again looks a little goofy IMO.


Jeff, what does your base timing map look like? The big one and the high octane one?

Anyone have Jeff's version of GM MAF rescaled to its limit ? What bits do you have on yours Keith?

For some reason in my mind I'm thinking a Hz reading in the 4-5000 range is around 120lbs/min. That really just doesn't seem inline with a manifold pressure of 25psi according the map sensor. Anyone else see that? Are the turbos overspinning from a leak or something? The map reading is overshooting and bleeding off 5lbs of boost every hundred rpms ir so?

Here's the timing map. http://www.3sgto.org/tuning-engine-electronics-ecu-discussions/13219-lets-talk-timing-maps-2.html I find it funny that you have posted in this thread and yet still ask for this information. Post #17. Your powers of search are slipping, lol. Nomie posts all my screenshot info for me because I haven't yet figured out how to do it for myself. Computers aren't exactly my strong suit.

Pressure testing yeilded no leaks a few days prior to hitting the rollers.

I also posted earlier in this thread that I have logged on the translator up to 672g/s. See post #40. That comes out to somewhere near 89lbs/min. According to Garret, "As a very general rule, turbocharged gasoline engines will generate 9.5-10.5 horsepower (as measured at the flywheel) for each lb/min of airflow." 89 * 9.5 = 845. Neither of the pulls made it to 4700+Hz which is where I would expect to get close to the figure above but I think it's in the ballpark even if I did pick the low end. 4700+Hz has been logged in evoscan countless times on the street. I was starting to get it close to 4800 but it hasn't read that high yet. I honestly doubt it ever will though because I have pushed it pretty hard this year trying to see what it would take in the heat of the summer.


Line 28 on the racegas log shows 26.75 psi of boost pressure in the manifold. If you refer back to jus dyno chart he peaked at 680whp right there. That's freaking amazing at such a low boost on TD-04 turbos!

WOW Jeff, just WOW! Damn near 700whp on a TD-04 around 27psi WOW!

I said waaayyyy early in this thread that I doubt it'll even make 30psi. See post #12. 8.5:1CR helps and a fairly aggressive timing map IMO have a lot to do with that.


I had my 3" MAF in blowthrough, Maf-t set to 740 injectors (basically halving a stock mitsu MAF), on TD04-16gs it would climb to around 1750hz (3500hz if maf-t was zero'd) and then just throw a wobbler.

I tried a couple of 30psi pulls but pulled out when I felt the misfire (looked on logs later and it was same time as MAF readings went odd). 20psi seemed the limit of the 3" GM maf in blowthrough on my setup?.

I've read people have experience similar if there's condensation in the intercoolers (hitting the hotwires), so will see what happens in drawthrough.

I called Full Throttle years ago about the 3" sensor and the erratic behavior it was having and when I mentioned the g/s I was seeing they said I NEED a 3.5". The 3.5" is far from enough because it would only do another 50-75 g/s before it was flakey.


700WHP is just crazy.. Can't believe it. Great work!

PS.. you are getting a C6 ZO6 for a daily? Think you could get me a job at where you work ;)?haha

Thank you. Yes I want it for my daily but I will be saving pretty much all next year for a healthy down payment. My goal is 15k down and owe between 25k and 30k or less as I will be in the market for it over the winter when the owners will be more willing to bargain. That's not a horrible car payment to maintain. The fuel economy isn't too bad when you have to factor in the premium only tag and insurance isn't going to hurt too bad either. Tires and clutch are going to hurt but, I'm all about making my dreams come true. My 3000GT is my first ever dream car. Corvette is a close #2. The fact that the 3000GT is so much more affordable is why I already have it.


That's 680 hp too on pulls that weren't "as good" to what he was used to on the street either. He was running richer than his 12.5ish target. IDK how much power difference that could make, but I am curious.

I'm going to try again when they do a dyno day. Those will be race gas pulls. I'm not shooting for any more but I would like to see that 500AWTQ @ 7000RPM.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

The bump in the road VD graph. Smoothing 1 really shows it.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/Bumpintheroadvdonpump_zps14a2d4dd.jpg

Jeff

[HLxDrummer]

Ya the Vettes actually seem pretty practical. I was going to ask about winter but I guess you don't have much in terms of snow, huh?

Either way, great work! Looks like you have accomplished your goals with the VR4 and are working towards getting your other dream car. Must be doing something right :)

[futurevr4man]

as far as go fast mods go, ill bet there is quite a bit left in your intake setup. when i built my engine, i made sure i did 3.5" pipes up to the intake, and this summer i plan to get a 90mm throttle body and a proper intake to match. our throttle body is just so stinkin small from the factory.

but before you do any of that junk... get some driveline mods so you can launch the thing!

[NOMIEZVR4]

as far as go fast mods go, ill bet there is quite a bit left in your intake setup. when i built my engine, i made sure i did 3.5" pipes up to the intake, and this summer i plan to get a 90mm throttle body and a proper intake to match. our throttle body is just so stinkin small from the factory.

but before you do any of that junk... get some driveline mods so you can launch the thing!

Pics of intake setup? I've got 2" Hotside and 3" coldside piping...

[futurevr4man]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/882026_4975038212763_1157485686_o.jpg

its 2.5 hotside and 3.5 coldside. size wise, the diameter of the two 2.5's is almost exactly the diameter of one 3.5, so no restriction anywhere. and 90mm is 3.5 inches... it all seems to make sense to me haha

[J. Fast]

Something to examine just for the sake of comparison. Here's your timing map from the other thread, Jeff.


Jeff's Timing Map
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll440/nomiezvr4/jeff_zpsd50d6597.png (http://s314.photobucket.com/user/nomiezvr4/media/jeff_zpsd50d6597.png.html)

I interpolated Chris Hill's timing map for the sake of discussion because I feel it's quite relevant. I took a map he posted about a year ago and used a few points to reconstruct his basemap. The redlines are his actual vertical axis timing numbers and all the whites are auto-smoothed. He's injecting quite a bit of meth and his octane rating is likely similar to the rating you might be seeing as you're injecting meth over racegas.

As you can see he's running almost 10 degrees of timing over the top of you at an equivalent displacement, airflow, and rotating package. That wave in there could be as easy as adding in some timing advance. Now, I know Chris said his timing is pretty wild, but honestly you're throwing about the same timing numbers out as I am with a higher octane rating, with more oxygen available. Seems like there's a lot of room left in there for timing advance seeing you've only added a degree or so over your pumpgas/meth basemap.

Here's a snapshot of a lot of octane and meth on a built 3.0.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/HillHighoctanemethtiming_zps73a19d77.jpg

[HellBringer]

Chris is NOT using meth injection, and never has as far as I can recall. He's running E95/M5 which is the sole reason he gets away with the ultra-aggressive timing map. He'll tell you himself he would NOT recommend that map to anyone...! Comparing his map and setup to OP's is apples to turnips...

[J. Fast]

Chris is NOT using meth injection, and never has as far as I can recall. He's running E95/M5 which is the sole reason he gets away with the ultra-aggressive timing map. He'll tell you himself he would NOT recommend that map to anyone...! Comparing his map and setup to OP's is apples to turnips...

There are several delivery methods for meth. Chris injects meth from the gas tank. You think the octane ratings on Chris mix and Jeffs are that far off eachother? 50% of Jeffs pill is meth, that's a lot of retardant.

There was a guy that had a lot to offer from knowledge and experience regarding meth injection over ethanol, pumpgas , racegas,and even some NOS on top too! He's a really good friend of mine. When I invited them here to share his experiences you showed up and f****** insulted him and ran your trap and consequently he'll never post another thing on this forum ever. If you're wondering why I have so much discourse for you, it's because you did that. I think you're an a**hole because of it!

link>> http://www.3sgto.org/3000gt-stealth-gto-related-topics/12826-3-0l-11-1-compression-1000-awhp-3-s-stock-cams-altitude.html <<

I hope you have a lot of success on your build Jeff, congratulations. I think I'm going to move on and play somewhere else for a bit.

[HellBringer]

Cry me a river, drmblder. If your buddy, or more likely alter ego, can't take a little heat then get your whiney ass out of the kitchen. You want to compare a TD05 setup and timing map that burns 95% ethanol/5% methanol with +1 valves, etc.. to OP's...? And your buddy (alter ego?), who's this alleged 'expert', wanted to convince the world he made significantly more power than the hardware he was running was physically capable of flowing, with no tangible explanation other than an astronomical correction factor...? Good riddance to you both..! Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, Sally! Jeeeezus... Emo little baby..

[Greg E]

There are several delivery methods for meth. Chris injects meth from the gas tank. You think the octane ratings on Chris mix and Jeffs are that far off eachother? 50% of Jeffs pill is meth, that's a lot of retardant
.

By that logic we should go back to carburetor setups then because the fuel delivery is perfectly even inside the plenum right? ;)

[anyonebutme]

i feel like interjecting confusion and drama.

the late 396 hemi was available in 2 version, fuel injected and a carb'd version that put out 40 more HP than the identical injected version. Something about much better atomization and consistency in the carb version at WOT vs spraying the valve.

[Greg E]

i feel like interjecting confusion and drama.

the late 396 hemi was available in 2 version, fuel injected and a carb'd version that put out 40 more HP than the identical injected version. Something about much better atomization and consistency in the carb version at WOT vs spraying the valve.

So we should expect the same thing from our stock intake plenums!

[anyonebutme]

So we should expect the same thing from our stock intake plenums!

Hey, without actual testing, it very well might be better since I already know the air distribution is uneven and the fuel injection distribution doesn't match, carb-ing the 6G will make the air and fuel distribution match.

Drivabiliy will go down the tubes as will economy, but POWER! Just stick a 90 degree pipe where the MAS used to be and slap on a draw-through dominator or something. BOOM. screw chrome! Wait, now we need to fit a distributor.......

[HellBringer]

19T's + carb has already been done:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads11/557+540STD1196534108.jpg

[kywhitelightning]

Something to examine just for the sake of comparison. Here's your timing map from the other thread, Jeff.



I interpolated Chris Hill's timing map for the sake of discussion because I feel it's quite relevant. I took a map he posted about a year ago and used a few points to reconstruct his basemap. The redlines are his actual vertical axis timing numbers and all the whites are auto-smoothed. He's injecting quite a bit of meth and his octane rating is likely similar to the rating you might be seeing as you're injecting meth over racegas.

As you can see he's running almost 10 degrees of timing over the top of you at an equivalent displacement, airflow, and rotating package. That wave in there could be as easy as adding in some timing advance. Now, I know Chris said his timing is pretty wild, but honestly you're throwing about the same timing numbers out as I am with a higher octane rating, with more oxygen available. Seems like there's a lot of room left in there for timing advance seeing you've only added a degree or so over your pumpgas/meth basemap.

Here's a snapshot of a lot of octane and meth on a built 3.0.

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/HillHighoctanemethtiming_zps73a19d77.jpg

93 will not take that timing with the engine moving the air that it is irregardless of my heavy dose of methanol. There is still more gas going into the cylinders than methanol and I feel lucky to get away with what I have with this map. Race gas is a rare at best occasion and more of a safety net for when I want to get creative. I believe I have established a good boost pressure limit for this setup, which I'm sure most have a hard time with as everyone thinks 30psi is required, and also a good timing map as 99.87534762% of the time it is running the map posted with 93 pump + methanol injection, not race gas. We still have yet to see what this setup is capable of as it never made it to 7000RPM pumping the timing set in the map. That 1 count of knock was holding timing back as it should have delivered 23* before the driver lifted. Knowing it had 1 count tells me to steer clear of adding anything else as it is about to be unhappy.

I thought more oxygen available requires less timing.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

Hey, without actual testing, it very well might be better since I already know the air distribution is uneven and the fuel injection distribution doesn't match, carb-ing the 6G will make the air and fuel distribution match.

Can you please show me how there is uneven distribution happening? What testing was done to prove this?

Jeff

[KeithMac]

I had a Nitrous failure ( injecting wet shot pre tb), last two runners furthest away from throttlebody end were destroyed but rest looked fine. Another owner on GTOOC had identical failure.

I've put this down to the wet mix being forced down to the end of the plenum, I can see Methanol having the same issues if large quantities are being injected (favouring the last two runners).

[anyonebutme]

Can you please show me how there is uneven distribution happening? What testing was done to prove this?

Jeff

No and no. There was a thread about this very subject but I can't be bothered to look for it. If anyone has a model I'll be glad to run it through. I believe the result from the thread was 5 or 6 got the least air.


first google hit
http://blog.intengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/CYL4.png


second google hit
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/keatonstanley/CDF%20intake/T2_4.jpg


3rd google hit
http://cms.skunk2.com/photo/g-263-7c5030216622ad24957e891bf91e62c0b2305d13.jpg

[J. Fast]

93 will not take that timing with the engine moving the air that it is irregardless of my heavy dose of methanol. There is still more gas going into the cylinders than methanol and I feel lucky to get away with what I have with this map. Race gas is a rare at best occasion and more of a safety net for when I want to get creative. I believe I have established a good boost pressure limit for this setup, which I'm sure most have a hard time with as everyone thinks 30psi is required, and also a good timing map as 99.87534762% of the time it is running the map posted with 93 pump + methanol injection, not race gas. We still have yet to see what this setup is capable of as it never made it to 7000RPM pumping the timing set in the map. That 1 count of knock was holding timing back as it should have delivered 23* before the driver lifted. Knowing it had 1 count tells me to steer clear of adding anything else as it is about to be unhappy.

I thought more oxygen available requires less timing.

Jeff it's not the timing at the top. it's the timing on the bottom coming up. yours derives from the teens. Chris derives from the 30's. look at your map sensor readings in your log. vs. rpm. now compare from 3500 rpms up. that's where your waves originate from. The timing on the top is fine.

Octane is a retardant. Generally speaking the higher the octane number you inject the more ignition advance you give it.


No and no. There was a thread about this very subject but I can't be bothered to look for it. If anyone has a model I'll be glad to run it through. I believe the result from the thread was 5 or 6 got the least air.


first google hit
http://blog.intengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/CYL4.png


second google hit
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/keatonstanley/CDF%20intake/T2_4.jpg


3rd google hit
http://cms.skunk2.com/photo/g-263-7c5030216622ad24957e891bf91e62c0b2305d13.jpg. I remember that thread. That was a 3si thread when I was actually a member. Oohnoo posted some cfd and Gill at GC Tech chimed in with a cfd for a couple of his manifolds. That was like 5-6 years ago... I posted a manifold cfd case study from a University in that thread... Ask Oohnoo I bet he has the link tabbed.

[KeithMac]

LSX 100mm MAF Mass Air Flow Sensor LS1 LS2 LS6 LS3 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/291014429624?redirect=mobile)

Been looking at one of these today, you guys are spoilt for choice with tuning parts!.

Think 4" is the logical choice for some headroom?.

[Greg E]

LSX 100mm MAF Mass Air Flow Sensor LS1 LS2 LS6 LS3 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/291014429624?redirect=mobile)

Been looking at one of these today, you guys are spoilt for choice with tuning parts!.

Think 4" is the logical choice for some headroom?.

Doesn't work.

[KeithMac]

What, the link or the MAF?. It's item number 291014429624 on Ebay . com ..

[KeithMac]

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/LSX-100mm-MAF-Mass-Air-Flow-Sensor-LS1-LS2-LS6-LS3-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/$T2eC16RHJIYE9qUcOQF3BR(FoUyGuQ~~60_35.JPG

[Greg E]

The MAF.

[J. Fast]

Can you please show me how there is uneven distribution happening? What testing was done to prove this?

Jeff
I had some pictures up in this thread >> Some Engineering for 6g7x engines - Page 5 - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/some-engineering-6g7x-engines-468173/index5.html). << from a cfd but took them down when I left 3si. Here's a snippet of what one might have looked like in the 2009 thread. I still have several cfd model pics for various this and that for 10 styles or so. They are secret now tho.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehughhenderson/pics/Intake_CFD/velocity_streamlines_8.png

Oohnoo actually linked in a cfd simulation model in that thread which was hosted at hybridz but they moved the study to a paid and private area and killed the link.

[fastfalcon94]

I wish we had a log from Matt when he dyno'd his "stock motor" card at over 600hp. Same goes for Ray. They were using piggybacks so I would be curious as to what their timing numbers actually were. Jeff had been helping me with my timing map. It was too conservative and I was in the mid teeens up past 18 load/5k rpms. It made a huge difference going to 20/21 advanced. I still didn't have any knock and was making good power jumps. Then it had to snow.

It looks like Chris runs more timing down low too. I'm doing the same with my car as I found it helped a little with my part throttle surge issue.

Also the intake diagrams are theoretical right? Didn't someone post in the manifold thread that testing even distribution out each of the 6 runners isn't really accurate as only 1 set of valves would be open at a time? I'm sure that will change how the air flow inside the manifold really is.

[kywhitelightning]

J, running lots of timing knowing full boost plus will be in the engine near VE peak is something I want to stay away from. Now your earlier statement is making sense as the pump pull toward the end cleaned the wavy lines up where the timing was coming up. At 5000-6000 nothing can be added as that has been tested and causes knock issues. At 4000-5000 VE peak is achieved and that is also where boost spikes will occur the most as most pulls are started near 4000. I'll stay away from that for obvious reasons. Adding any timing below 4000 won't be recognised on dyno pulls or street pulls because of surge. This timing map is almost top to bottom more aggressive than a stock map running 9b's with 1/2 point lower static compression flowing probably 500 crank HP less air. It's at the edge of my comfort level and while I do like your theory, for reasons posted above it'll stay as is.


Also the intake diagrams are theoretical right? Didn't someone post in the manifold thread that testing even distribution out each of the 6 runners isn't really accurate as only 1 set of valves would be open at a time? I'm sure that will change how the air flow inside the manifold really is.

I think that will disprove all this theory of uneven distrobution. Pressure will take the path of least resistance and when balled up waiting for an intake valve set to open it won't care where it should go, it'll go toward the lower pressure which in this case would be following a piston on the downward stroke during the intake cycle. Simply free flowing air through something or even modeling like posted above tells me nothing unless you can prove it with the engine running.

The nitrous scenario posted above I think may be different. Were either of the cases boosted or were both NA prior to spraying?

Jeff

[KeithMac]

The MAF.

Have you had experience with one?, is it due to too little flow past the sensor at low load?.

[Greg E]

Have you had experience with one?, is it due to too little flow past the sensor at low load?.

Lots of things. Ill do a write up about it sometime. I'm in the process of testing versions sensors.

[KeithMac]

Thanks!, so 3.5" sensor is the best option for blow through then?.

[Alex3000gt]

I had some pictures up in this thread >> Some Engineering for 6g7x engines - Page 5 - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/some-engineering-6g7x-engines-468173/index5.html). << from a cfd but took them down when I left 3si. Here's a snippet of what one might have looked like in the 2009 thread. I still have several cfd model pics for various this and that for 10 styles or so. They are secret now tho.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehughhenderson/pics/Intake_CFD/velocity_streamlines_8.png

Oohnoo actually linked in a cfd simulation model in that thread which was hosted at hybridz but they moved the study to a paid and private area and killed the link.
What are your boundary conditions?

[GTOJOE]

Subscribed. Some good discussion in this thread.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[anyonebutme]

I think that will disprove all this theory of uneven distrobution. Pressure will take the path of least resistance and when balled up waiting for an intake valve set to open it won't care where it should go, it'll go toward the lower pressure which in this case would be following a piston on the downward stroke during the intake cycle. Simply free flowing air through something or even modeling like posted above tells me nothing unless you can prove it with the engine running.

The nitrous scenario posted above I think may be different. Were either of the cases boosted or were both NA prior to spraying?

Jeff

Interesting you think a nitrous mixture, a fuel/air mixture and air alone behave so differently in that nitrous would be uneven but air and fuel/air won't. Air has significant mass, it doesn't just go and stop instantly when the valves open. Otherwise there wouldn't be any need for valve overlap.

I also guess flowbenching heads is useless. I'm not the smartest guy here but I'd think that if constant flow CFD intake plenums was useless I would think F1 teams wouldn't bother spending millions of dollars doing it. They actually have programs that can simulate the entire engine, valves and all, but I'd assume the correlation is good enough with constant flow that they don't use it for rough design.

Why doesn't the MAS see instant stop and go flow? Even with 6 cylinders there can't be pulse-tuning to that degree.

[futurevr4man]

Thanks!, so 3.5" sensor is the best option for blow through then?.

I run a 3.75" maf...

[KeithMac]

I run a 3.75" maf...

Blowthrough?, have you got any pics/ part numbers please?.

Cheers!.

[kywhitelightning]

Interesting you think a nitrous mixture, a fuel/air mixture and air alone behave so differently in that nitrous would be uneven but air and fuel/air won't. Air has significant mass, it doesn't just go and stop instantly when the valves open. Otherwise there wouldn't be any need for valve overlap.

I also guess flowbenching heads is useless. I'm not the smartest guy here but I'd think that if constant flow CFD intake plenums was useless I would think F1 teams wouldn't bother spending millions of dollars doing it. They actually have programs that can simulate the entire engine, valves and all, but I'd assume the correlation is good enough with constant flow that they don't use it for rough design.

Why doesn't the MAS see instant stop and go flow? Even with 6 cylinders there can't be pulse-tuning to that degree.

My understanding of nitrous backfires is that it occurs from puddling in the intake. More specifically the fuel that is injected and is no longer suspended in the mix, ignites. Simply setting the window wrong will cause it. No further details leaves us with well that's what happens and that's how it is. I wonder if Maximal has had nitrous issues as he has been spraying for years. I would hope that pressurized flow would help the mix to stay suspended longer but, I never claimed expertise in the subject.

What I do know is that, I had a methanol leak while on the dyno at IPS and peppered cylinder 5 and 3 bent a connecting rod. My stock IM would by the examples above load everything on cylinders 1 and 2 and those should have been the ones with issues. All the other cylinders were fine just a FYI. There is so much garbage information spread around these forums when it comes to meth injection it's unreal. It starts with uneven cylinder distribution. The next one is a theoretical limit on injection amout pfff. Too much methanol causing the knock sensor to not read, lol. All I asked for was a model of airflow for a 6g engine while running certainly not your take on an F1's team budget and how they spend their money. By the models posted above the surge area really doesn't fill with air. It passes straight to the second and third runner or the last 2 runners depending on the angle of the TB to the runners. I wonder how my IM MAP sensor is registering positive pressure if those two cylinders are getting it all. The actual stop and go flow would serve as a better reference than what was posted above. Pressure will always try to equalize. As long as the methanol stays suspended, the mix should be correct across all the cylinders or at least that is what I have seen, no models needed and certainly not a million dollar budget required.

I have been injecting lots of methanol for years and the only issues I have ever had from doing so was with crap push on type fittings and too much water in the mix. I changed my entire setup to brass compression style fittings and no more leaks from fittings. Knock counts seem to resgister as they should and the last time I pulled my plugs they all looked the same, IE no distrobution issues appearent. I called Snow a while ago inquiring about running a 2nd stage of methanol in direct port configuration and the response I got from them was why, there is no distribution issues with injecting pre TB like I had. I canned the idea, my wallet was happy, and I still don't see where there could be a distribution problem. I eliminated water from my mix and bucking has been eliminated. I only post what I have seen and trends that can be replicated. Your comments on others opinions and methods especially with engine packages that in no way are similar to the 6g family are useless to me. Overexagerating facts to play devil's advocate is something else in and of itself. Like you have stated before, you like to inject drama.

Jeff

[ICPREY]

I didn't read all 25 pages, but have you checked your meth nozzle spray pattern lately? I run meth on two other vehicles and they have clogged up before (not completely, but enough to affect atomization). You can disassemble them with an a small wrench and clean the head with a wire brush.

[kywhitelightning]

Yes, the spray pattern is fine. Every time my intake pipe is off I do a volume test. I did one about 2-3 weeks prior to the dyno event this time. I am always paraniod of methanol leaks as I know what they can cause. I haven't logged a pull since it came back from the dyno but I intend to here soon. It still feels correct (my focus is more on the road than the assortment of guages I would like to watch like a hawk). Knock usually comes with a significant loss in power if the methanol isn't right. 93 by itself is hopeless with this tune. That's what happened at the NG this year on Von's dyno. Luckily I poured 5 gallons of C16 in it then. It still knocked like crazy and never eclipsed the 500 mark. Bill Buelle (spelling?) came up to me and congratulated me on the second highest dyno and while he may have then though I was a d-bag to him by hanging my head and saying it wasn't right, I was probably the only one that knew it wasn't. Well, my wife knew it too because that's all she heard when we drove around in St. Louis.

My thought is the ect was too cold adding too much fuel. This will be proven either correct or false the next dyno day and I will also specify starting the pull above 4000. I think that'll get rid of the wavy lines. Since the C16 is still in the tank somewhat I'll crank the boost to see if I have any misfire issues as well. It's getting real cold here at night so we'll see.

Jeff

[J. Fast]

My understanding of nitrous backfires is that it occurs from puddling in the intake. More specifically the fuel that is injected and is no longer suspended in the mix, ignites. Simply setting the window wrong will cause it. No further details leaves us with well that's what happens and that's how it is. I wonder if Maximal has had nitrous issues as he has been spraying for years. I would hope that pressurized flow would help the mix to stay suspended longer but, I never claimed expertise in the subject.

What I do know is that, I had a methanol leak while on the dyno at IPS and peppered cylinder 5 and 3 bent a connecting rod. My stock IM would by the examples above load everything on cylinders 1 and 2 and those should have been the ones with issues. All the other cylinders were fine just a FYI.

Jeff

Which connecting rod did you bend, I can't remember if you mentioned it or not ?

[KeithMac]

GTOOC - GTO/3000GT Owners Club ? Login (http://www.gtooc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9508) my thread on my failure.

The log manifold at the top of the page is not really a good estimation of or stock manifolds as out throttle bodies bolt on perpendicular to the plenum not on an angle..