13T Turbo Setup?

[SHADES TREGO 88]

Ok so as the title entails I would like to have a 13 Turbo setup on my '93 VR-4. I can get one 13T from a friend's WRX when he upgrades his and I can get another off of eBay or Craigslist used for a very low price (~$450 each) and I've read and researched that people who do this needed to "modify" their turbos to fit and I was wondering what they had to do and just how hard it was to do. Also, what fuel system should I run? I was thinking of getting the full 3SX fuel kit including the Aeromotive Stealth fuel pump, FueLab pressure regulator and filter, stainless steel lines and fittings, with 3SX fuel rails. Then I would buy the Precision Turbo 580cc fuel injectors and a APEXi AFC to control this. Feel free to give any advice on my ideas or help me edit this because I'm on a budget and it seems like a good idea. --Thanks!

[R/T93]

If you're on a budget all you need for the fuel system is a drop in 255 lph pump and a new OEM fuel filter and OEM FPR. you don't need lines or rails for a 500 hp setup at all.
Get a downpipe and gut your cats.
I don't know about the turbos, someone will chime in.

[anyonebutme]

there are a couple ways to do it, but the most common uses your current 9b turbine housings that are machined to match the larger 13T turbine wheel, you also might find that early 9b's have a different turbine housing lip that'll require more machining. You'll probably need to trim the front motor mount bracket, and you'll need to modify the rear IC pipe because the 13T doesn't have the 9b's o-ring connection. You'll might need to modify the coolant lines to clear the larger compressor housings. if you have some FMIC kits you'll need to add couplers and pipes to clear the large housings. You'll need a wastegate relocation bracket to use your 9b wastegate actuators. You'll also need to retap the rear turbo oil supply line adaptor or use a new line that has appropriate fittings.

This is not a drop in turbo, but if fiddling doesn't scare you they are the best bang for the buck. Also, look harder for turbos, as they should be had for less than 200 each.

[mb3000]

You can get very low mileage good condition snails from NASIOC for ~$200 all day long. Do not overpay.

[RealMcCoy]

I've bought a bunch of those turbos from various sources...(craigslist, ebay, forums, ect.) I've never paid more than $150 each... Admittedly, I'm never in a hurry to buy, and only snag the deals when they arise. If you're willing to pay $200ish, you could buy them all day long...

It is far from a bolt in deal... As has been posted, there is a lot of conversion work to be done. You have to have a set of 9B exhaust housings to machine to fit the L turbine (don't discount the cost of the core 9B's you just killed to do that), you have to modify the coolant passages in the CRHA if you want to run the coolant lines in the factory location, the oil inlets need to be changed to a different thread pitch, ( I use a helicoil) you have to make or buy brackets for the wastegate actuators, ( I weld new mounts on the compressor housing) You will probably have to deal with the compressor housing interfering with the front motor mount, (All the ones I've installed, I was also building solid mounts for, so I just built some bias into the mount and moved it over a little.)

They're awesome turbos, but unless you have an in with a quality machinist, and are willing to put in some of the conversion work yourself, you may find it cheaper to go with some 15G's for very similar power...

[SHADES TREGO 88]

Ok so now the question I have is this: where can I get some 15Gs for cheap, how much work is it to install them and how much potential do they have compared to the 13T?

[mb3000]

100% bolt on.

3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/td04-15g-turbos-100-bolt-0-miles-build-warranty-596658/)

[sergechronos]

Ok so now the question I have is this: where can I get some 15Gs for cheap, how much work is it to install them and how much potential do they have compared to the 13T?


I've bought a bunch of those turbos from various sources...(craigslist, ebay, forums, ect.) I've never paid more than $150 each... Admittedly, I'm never in a hurry to buy, and only snag the deals when they arise. If you're willing to pay $200ish, you could buy them all day long...

It is far from a bolt in deal... As has been posted, there is a lot of conversion work to be done. You have to have a set of 9B exhaust housings to machine to fit the L turbine (don't discount the cost of the core 9B's you just killed to do that), you have to modify the coolant passages in the CRHA if you want to run the coolant lines in the factory location, the oil inlets need to be changed to a different thread pitch, ( I use a helicoil) you have to make or buy brackets for the wastegate actuators, ( I weld new mounts on the compressor housing) You will probably have to deal with the compressor housing interfering with the front motor mount, (All the ones I've installed, I was also building solid mounts for, so I just built some bias into the mount and moved it over a little.)

They're awesome turbos, but unless you have an in with a quality machinist, and are willing to put in some of the conversion work yourself, you may find it cheaper to go with some 15G's for very similar power...



The cost of the "cores" you just killed though isn't quite killed. I've talked to Midwest, DR and Boostmore, all say that they can adapt their turbos to use the larger WRX compressor housings which should even net an increase in power over the 9B compressor housing.

Rob Beck on 3SI used to do the conversions, I got the last set he did, you could contact him and see if he would do it, but you'd need send him your 9Bs and 13Ts. Total cost for me including the 13Ts was around $900. You can either do braided AN lines for the coolant, or bend the metal lines to work. You will have to grind the motor mount as others have pointed out, but Rob's conversions include everything else (such as the brackets and new hose connection for the rear turbo and the turbos are clocked already.) Main benefit to the 13Ts, IMO anyhow, is that they will net 400awhp all day (up to 500 on E85 or meth injection) and they are cheap as hell to replace.

15Gs would be a direct drop in, generally around 700 used, although I'd be cautious about buying used turbos from someone without rep. New they're around 1300 I think. 15Gs are about the same power as 13Ts IIRC.

[SHADES TREGO 88]

Alright, so if I were to buy 15Gs new where would I buy them?

[mb3000]

Like all TD04 turbos (excluding MHI 13G's), the 15G is a custom made part. You cannot purchase this new. The compressor housing and CHRA are enlarged to accept the 15G compressor wheel. Turbine housing is bored out if you choose to get a TD04L or TD04HL turbine wheel. Here is a good comparison page: Stealth 316 - Turbo Upgrade Guide (http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm)

If you want brand new, you have to source new factory 9b (or 13G) turbochargers and have this machine work done. As I'm sure you can imagine, this is not cheap. Most people get rebuilt turbos with the machine work done. If this is an option for you see my link above:



100% bolt on.

3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/td04-15g-turbos-100-bolt-0-miles-build-warranty-596658/)

[RealMcCoy]

The cost of the "cores" you just killed though isn't quite killed. I've talked to Midwest, DR and Boostmore, all say that they can adapt their turbos to use the larger WRX compressor housings which should even net an increase in power over the 9B compressor housing.


I've read that paragraph multiple times, and have yet to figure out your point...? The point I made, was that if you are going to convert a set of 13T's, you need to cannibalize parts from your 9B cores to do it. Those 9B cores have value. After you remove the exhaust housings and wastegate actuators, what you have left is a pair of CRHA's and comp housings that are virtually worthless... Nobody is going to pay you any significant money for pieces of turbos. Therefor, IMO you need to add the core value of the 9B's to the real world cost of the conversion.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from using them, I think they are great turbos, I have them on my car, and have installed them on two of my customer's cars... I'm just saying be realistic about the cost when deciding which way to go...

[anyonebutme]

Actually CHRA and compressor housings are still viable cores......If someone has blown 9b's all the need to replace is the CHRA and possibly the compressor housing if it touched down. Sold mine for $100 each IIRC. Combine that with the ability to sell the WRX wastegate springs if you don't use them.

Yea, I have no idea what he is talking about with the WRX housings or whatever.

[sergechronos]

I've read that paragraph multiple times, and have yet to figure out your point...? The point I made, was that if you are going to convert a set of 13T's, you need to cannibalize parts from your 9B cores to do it. Those 9B cores have value. After you remove the exhaust housings and wastegate actuators, what you have left is a pair of CRHA's and comp housings that are virtually worthless... Nobody is going to pay you any significant money for pieces of turbos. Therefor, IMO you need to add the core value of the 9B's to the real world cost of the conversion.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from using them, I think they are great turbos, I have them on my car, and have installed them on two of my customer's cars... I'm just saying be realistic about the cost when deciding which way to go...

You would have to convert your old 9Bs for any turbo upgrade out there unless you have the money to buy new turbos for cores (700 last I recall), or pay the core charge. Since each vendor has said that they can use the converted 13Ts still for their turbo upgrades, it's not as though the converted 13Ts would require you to pay a core charge down the road if you want to upgrade.

I managed to sell my old 9B CHRAs and Compressor housings for like 70 bucks. Not much, but it was that much more I saved from the conversion.

[mb3000]

Say $300 for a pair of unconverted 13T's. Now you need machine work done. Since Rob isn't offering his services anymore, you would likely need to source another person familiar with turbochargers to get the work done right. pj91gsx on DSMtuners charges $80 per housing. Factor in shipping both ways. At this point, we are at $480 approx. Now, what if you received one of the turbos only to find that an exhaust seal is blown, and the turbine wheel is covered with a film of oil. Very hard to tell from a picture, or even at all if you do not remove the turbine housing. The same freelancer charges $120 to $300 for a MHI rebuild. Again, factor in shipping. On the low side, we are now left with approx. $740.

At this point, you have a set of 13T's in their native compressor housings and CHRA, with 3/s turbine housings. As RealMcCoy said, factor in the minimum that you will get from a pair of 9b cores ($175 from the vendor I linked to). Now we have a total of $900 (shipping of cores factored in). Now you have to deal with the issues that come with bolting them on, such as clocking, wastegate actuator mounting, etc...


I had a pair of WRX 13T's at one time. I sold them and got 15G's that bolt right up, with no modification required.

[anyonebutme]

Say $300 for a pair of unconverted 13T's. Now you need machine work done. Since Rob isn't offering his services anymore, you would likely need to source another person familiar with turbochargers to get the work done right. pj91gsx on DSMtuners charges $80 per housing. Factor in shipping both ways. At this point, we are at $480 approx. Now, what if you received one of the turbos only to find that an exhaust seal is blown, and the turbine wheel is covered with a film of oil. Very hard to tell from a picture, or even at all if you do not remove the turbine housing. The same freelancer charges $120 to $300 for a MHI rebuild. Again, factor in shipping. On the low side, we are now left with approx. $740.

At this point, you have a set of 13T's in their native compressor housings and CHRA, with 3/s turbine housings. As RealMcCoy said, factor in the minimum that you will get from a pair of 9b cores ($175 from the vendor I linked to). Now we have a total of $900 (shipping of cores factored in). Now you have to deal with the issues that come with bolting them on, such as clocking, wastegate actuator mounting, etc...


I had a pair of WRX 13T's at one time. I sold them and got 15G's that bolt right up, with no modification required.

I still don't understand how getting 13t's COSTS you a core charge? Like everyone else, I sold my 9b's, they didn't cost me.

[mb3000]

It is opportunity cost. Because your 9b cores are not as/completely value-less without the exhaust housings, you have to factor that cost into your decision.

Say they are in great condition, and you sell them for $100. Opertunity cost says that you lost $75 by not sending them in as cores.


The most important factor, and the reason that a majority of owners upgrade is due to a "forced upgrade". Where their 9b's are shot and they have to replace them with something anyways. In this condition the cores are still worth $175 if they are in re-buildable condition. Nobody is going to purchase a 9b chra that burns oil for any kind of decent money.

Also If you want a clean wastegate setup you need to be very skilled in fabrication, or IIRC MTC will do it for somewhere around $130.

[anyonebutme]

Oh, so you are talking hypothetical costs?

In that case, try this on: I bought 5 turbos, every one under $125, all under 20K miles, my turbos cost me $75 and $100 (one with 100 miles on it, not joking, shop drove it right off the dealer floor into the shop for a build). Rob charged my like $500 for the conversion. I sold my 9b's for over $150. I sold the remainder 13t's for a profit as well, think I made another 100 or so on the 3 I didn't use. I sold the 13T wastegate springs I didn't use for another $80 IIRC. Adapting the GReddy FMIC kit to fit cost me 2 2" couplers and a joiner, say $15 max.

If you have the time and knowledge, you can do even better than me. I think Maddog spend like half what I did on his conversion, and Larry spend less than I did using the stock WRX wastegates with minimal mods. Then there is the guy who welded Subaru flanges to his stock manifolds, he spent less than all of us because there was no machining involved.

In the end, a different type of person buys DR turbos vs does the 13t conversion.

[sergechronos]

It is opportunity cost. Because your 9b cores are not as/completely value-less without the exhaust housings, you have to factor that cost into your decision.

Say they are in great condition, and you sell them for $100. Opportunity cost says that you lost $75 by not sending them in as cores.


The most important factor, and the reason that a majority of owners upgrade is due to a "forced upgrade". Where their 9b's are shot and they have to replace them with something anyways. In this condition the cores are still worth $175 if they are in re-buildable condition. Nobody is going to purchase a 9b chra that burns oil for any kind of decent money.

Also If you want a clean wastegate setup you need to be very skilled in fabrication, or IIRC MTC will do it for somewhere around $130.

Even without selling the left overs from my 9Bs, my 13T conversion cost less than 1k including purchasing good 13Ts (inspected before I purchased), shipping to Rob, the machining and brackets. Cheapest I've seen 13/15Gs was $975 via Tim, providing you sent in your cores.

I'm not saying that 13Ts are without flaw, there are obviously some draw backs to them which have already been discussed. However at the end of the day, you can have 500awhp capable turbos (at the absolute edge anyways) for less than 1k start to finish even if you know nothing about doing custom work (since Rob's come machined, clocked and drilled with the brackets), which is something you can't say about pretty much any other turbo out there. As well as easy replacement if one starts to go, just get another WRX CHRA. Rob has said he will still convert some on occasion on a one off basis provided you send him everything needed. I paid $125 and $150 for each of my turbos, paid Rob $635 to do the machining and make the brackets for the waste gates, and paid $40 bucks to ship both 9Bs and 13Ts to him. That's $950 from start to finish if you don't sell any of the old parts. Tim's regular 13Gs start at 975 shipped and 15Gs at 1000 shipped IF you send in your cores which is the cheapest I've found them. If you don't, then they're 1200 and 1400 each.

If you sell your old CHRA and housing, the WRX wastegates, etc. you can get the 13Ts to 800 (or less if you're patient).

If you know how to do some of your own work, or can weld as was mentioned with the WRX flanges, you can get away with it for even less. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of DR650s or 750s, or even just plain-Jane 19Ts, but at the end of the day the 13Ts are nothing to be scared of and make a fantastic budget choice. I didn't mind doing a little extra work for the 13Ts versus the pure bolt on nature of 13Gs or 15Gs.

Maybe it's not the OP's cup of tea, or some others on here, but even factoring in "lost opportunity" it still came out cheaper for my 13Ts start to finish than it would have for 13G or 15Gs, even before I sold the extra parts.

[thor'svr4]

13T's and 15G's are pretty much the same as far as performance, but the 15G will be a little easier to install since you wont have to grind the front motor mount. Im not sure how to convert the turbos since i just bought a set from Robbeck for $900 and dropped them in, but i did have to cut up the front motor mount pretty extensively. If i recall correctly that was about the end of any modifications i had to make to fit the wrx housings. Robbeck included the wastegates mounting hardware and i think even the wastegates. I was able to reuse my oem coolant lines and oil lines.

as far as the fuel system goes, just keep it simple. 550cc injectors and a walbro 255 with a hotwire kit installed. theres no need to get a fancy fuel system to support a TD04 setup.

The first time i dynoed my 13T's my only mods were 13T's, 550cc injectors, hotwired walbro, cxracing fmic, MAFT to tune, boost controller and a wideband. everything else was bone stock and the car made 418awhp at 18psi. that was a very budget friendly setup and it made decent power. with some meth injection, an Apexi AFC and a forged bottom end it made 480awhp on pump gas and 518 awhp on race gas.

13T's are def a very strong budget turbo. good luck with the build.

[sergechronos]

Spoken like the true current record holder for 13Ts :p

[thor'svr4]

Thanks Sergechronos.

I forgot to mention that im about to install a DR T3/T4 kit once my heads come back from Rays so i wont have any use for my Robbeck 13T's with the WRX housings, PTE 550cc injectors or the walbro 255. if you're interested in doing a 13T build i could make you a deal and sell you my current setup.