E85 now wont start

[hellssephiroth]

Ok. So, running chrome, just put 750cc injectors in, drained tank and put e85 in.

I set the voltages for the injectors and set the size to 525 for the extra 30%. Car won't start. Did I forget something? Not even getting a sputter.

[hellssephiroth]

Hmm did I have to up the fuel pressure for RC750's compared to stock?

[aaronatstate]

575 is what you should start with (750/1.3).

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

If the car won't even cough it is something mechanical/electrical. The tune can be ridiculously off and it will still try to run.

[futurevr4man]

Actually you probably have residual gasoline in your lines so it probably flooded the engine. Unhook your fuel lines and drain them (crank for a second or two) then try again

[NOMIEZVR4]

post your original pump scaling values.

My PTE/Rochester 1000's are scaled at 745 on 93 and 590 with e85. What were your fuel trims before you switched to e85?

When I switched to e85, I literally just pulled in, pumped 6 gallons of e85, rescaled and she started right up no problems at all. I held the gas for like 20 seconds after initially starting to run out the pump as quickly as possible but it started right up.

[hellssephiroth]

Everything fuel tuning was just whatever stock was i didn't touch anything in those areas.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[hellssephiroth]

Wouldn't the residual gas just overflow back into the tank?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[hellssephiroth]

Here is my fuel/air system, 3.75gm maf/maft blow through, dual wallys hotwired, 750 injectors, 3sx fuel rails, 6 or 8an fuel lines dont remember fuelab fpr, stainless filter. I think thats everything.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Wouldn't the residual gas just overflow back into the tank?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

yeah it will, but the car will run momentarily really rich while the pump gas is still in the injectors. Mine took maybe 10 seconds to clear up. Like posted above you may just have fouled the plugs. clean the front 3 and see if it hits.

[hellssephiroth]

Will do. Ill clean them up in the morning after work.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[J. Fast]

Do you have a stock ecu you can plug in from a TT or SL? Plug either of those in and IF the engine is in time and has compression, fuel and spark it will fire first key regardless of fuel type and injectors. It's a really quick way to eliminate ecu setup issues. .

More than likely it's a fuel line break in the tank or an ignition lead issue. Some good advice has been given. The board will help get you down the road man.

[hellssephiroth]

Ok, got home and it fired right up. Must have just been flooded. It runs but runs like crap lol. Running Real lean, plugs white after idling. Idled at about 18ish afr. I see my rear 02 sensor is no longer registering though :( hope I didn't mess up a wire, sensor is only a month old. I changed my injector size to 575 also.

[NOMIEZVR4]

your injector scaling seems to be off. First thing you want is your o2's to cycle while idling...after it warms up. Play around with the scaling and see what settings get you closer to the ballpark of when the sensors start to cycle and then you will know you're in the right direction.

[hellssephiroth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=R5oFrxGYQCM

[hellssephiroth]

rear o2 isn't showing any voltage at all, front one does.... hmm should i just buy another? I'll have to see if there is a way to test it.

[hellssephiroth]

bought a new o2, at least it reads voltages now. Didn't fix anything though.

[hellssephiroth]

laaaaame. Stripped plenum stud back out. Time to pick up helicoils I think.

[hellssephiroth]

new update. just went for a cruise with it all weird anyways to see what afrs looked like. It seems my cruising afr and boost afr look pretty good i think. 14-15 cruise and 10.5-11 ish boost. Its just the off the gas that is terrible.

Lot of rpm bouncing and it seems like setting the idle screw doesn't do anything at all.... makes no sense to me. Hey Greg :) do you ever get around central WI? I would totally pay you to see if you can figure this out, or anyone that thinks they could for that matter.

[Greg E]

I come home to Madison every Christmas. :)

[hellssephiroth]

Awww :( lol wont have the car out then.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[llabmik2]

I know these are different cars, but these are the scaling's we usually use on 91 pump, and E85 for RC750's on Evo's

RC 750s

Scaling-665 (E10)

Scaling-551 (E85)

Volts MS
4.69 3.576
7.03 1.944
9.38 1.296
11.72 0.984
14.06 0.768
16.41 0.624
18.68 0.504

So take 665/1.3=511

So I would scale at 511. Then go from there.

What do your fuel trims look like?

You want those as close to zero as you can get.

If its also idling like crap, make sure your AFR and your timing are pretty static at idle. This will help you.

10.5-11 ish boost is to rich for E85. 11.7+ is where you want it in boost. Spool I would be in the 12.8's to 13.2's range.

If none of that helps, I would try to idle it in open loop to see if that makes it smoother.

[Greg E]

I used a different formula for injector scaling that better matches the true injector scaling. Using the scaling numbers you posted will cause the car to run rich.

The latency numbers are still the same though.

[llabmik2]

I used a different formula for injector scaling that better matches the true injector scaling. Using the scaling numbers you posted will cause the car to run rich.

The latency numbers are still the same though.

Different car also, I will start with those scaling and latency's then dial it in from there. I can get a car to pretty much match the AFR map under WOT, maybe a .5 drift to one side or the other, and STFT in the 1-3 range with a long term about the same.

The scalings are definitely on the richer side of what he posted. I was just giving him a couple more idea's.

Are you using --(New injector size * Original scale value) / Original injector size--- as your formula?

[futurevr4man]

i skimmed the posts so if im echoing something sorry.

i saw you say your off throttle is crappy but cruise and whatnot are good. i can almost guarantee you have a boost leak (read vacuum leak).

[hellssephiroth]

If i do i just cant find it..... I pumped up to 20 and blew my tester off. I still couldnt hear anything. I even borrowed a fog machine to see if i could see air movement..... Unless im not testing right? I have been sealing off one turbo and pumping air in the other.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[hellssephiroth]

:confused: For my scaling i originally did 750 *0.7 thinking that would be 30% richer for the e85. That came out to 525 which i had a few people tell me I did it wrong so i did 750/1.3 and that was 575. Both of them seemed to run about the same just different rpm levels.

[Greg E]

Different car also, I will start with those scaling and latency's then dial it in from there. I can get a car to pretty much match the AFR map under WOT, maybe a .5 drift to one side or the other, and STFT in the 1-3 range with a long term about the same.

The scalings are definitely on the richer side of what he posted. I was just giving him a couple more idea's.

Are you using --(New injector size * Original scale value) / Original injector size--- as your formula?

No, I'm talking about the formula for the Chrome XML for injector scaling (x*.015). The value that's translated from hex in the ROM.

In either case, a simple correction to the injector scaling isn't going to cure this.

[Greg E]

new update. just went for a cruise with it all weird anyways to see what afrs looked like. It seems my cruising afr and boost afr look pretty good i think. 14-15 cruise and 10.5-11 ish boost. Its just the off the gas that is terrible.

My memory isn't so good. I'm pretty sure we've talked about your car before but I have so much going on right now my mind is a blur. Some of these questions maybe redundant but let's go thru them again.

That said, I finally watched your video. I noticed you aren't logging anything. Can I ask why? I also noticed your obsessing over the wideband when you should be looking at fuel trims and narrowbands.

Also noticed you're running a MAFT in blow thru. Which version of the MAFT are you running? What MAF are you runing? Does it have screens?

Not to scare you, but between ray and myself there are over a dozen cars running the MAFT and the only ones that work perfectly are the MAFs setup in draw thru. Every car with issues is setup in blow thru.

Why? While I'm sure it can work (I haven't run it in any of my personal vehicles) there's gonna need to be some fine tuning. The stock airflow tables were setup for a MAF in draw thru so some tweaking to those tables will need to be done in order to get it to work right in blow thru.

Take a log for me and post it. Need to see 2 byte airflow, 2 byte load, short term fuel trims, low long term fuel trims, rpm, TPS, coolant temp, ISC counts, ISC error, idle switch (make sure your file is setup to log the correct bit) and also make sure your AC is OFF.

[hellssephiroth]

Sure I can post one. Do you want a cruise, idle and a pull, or just the idle for now?

[Greg E]

Just idle for now. Make sure it's warm idle.

[hellssephiroth]

Will do gimme a few to finish eating and ill run out there quick

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[hellssephiroth]

Ok here is the log. I clicked on 2byte load but i didn't see where it showed? Same with ISC error. Anyways here it is.

Maft is just a gen one Maft set for stock injectors yet. Maf is a LS1 Maf. 3.75" if im not mistaken. It is gutted.

Let me know if you need anything else or if i did something wrong with the log. Thanks for taking a look at it.

[Greg E]

It is gutted.--

Haven't looked at the log yet but this is your first issue. The screens are important as you can only get an accurate air count if the air is straight. I found this issue time and time again when doing back to back comparisons with and without screened MAFs.

You should replace the MAF with one that has screens before we continue.

[hellssephiroth]

Blah ill have to order one. Ill see what i can do. Thats what the blow through came with so i figured whatever i would use it.... On to ebay.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[hellssephiroth]

do you think this would work?
LSX 100mm MAF Mass AIR Flow Sensor LS1 LS2 LS6 LS3 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LSX-100mm-MAF-Mass-Air-Flow-Sensor-LS1-LS2-LS6-LS3-/310722600493?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4858829e2d&vxp=mtr)
Then i dont have to worry about cracking it....

[Greg E]

No that won't work.

[hellssephiroth]

I guess it was an ls6 one that i have... not that it matters probably. Its the bigger of the two. with the metal on one side and plastic on the other

[hellssephiroth]

This is the one i have currently GM GEN III LS1 AND Vortec Mass AIR Flow Sensor MAF 1997 2007 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-GEN-III-LS1-and-VORTEC-MASS-AIR-FLOW-SENSOR-MAF-1997-2007-/180859401765?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a1c0f7625&vxp=mtr)

[Greg E]

That's the one you need. Only don't gut it this time. :p

[hellssephiroth]

its on order lol

[hellssephiroth]

Should be here Friday. I will post a new log after its installed.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[hellssephiroth]

Ok, I received it and installed it but i want to wait a few hrs so I don't wake up the neighbors. Then I will post logs.

[hellssephiroth]

here is the new log with the new maf installed.... still running like complete garbage. It seems like my biss screw does nothing until it is in far enough to choke it off. So here it is. Maybe you can make sense of whats up.

[Greg E]

Who's ECU are you running and do you have bit 2 of periphery 0 switched off?

Notice how your narrowbands aren't cycling?

I'm also noticing that your airflow/ load numbers are really high. This probably has something to do with having the MAF mounted in blow thru or the MAFT Pro settings.

[hellssephiroth]

I'm running Jesters.

Bit 2 was off..... I'll turn it on and give it a go.

I will double check the maft settings. Its just the regular maft with the dials not the pro.

[Greg E]

You're gonna have to get that airflow signal down to about 25-35hz at idle in order for the trims to actually function or set the trims to work in the airflow range the MAFT reports.

Maybe set the MAFT to larger injector size or just dial back the low knob.

You're running stock motor and cams right?

[hellssephiroth]

stock motor and cams yes. ok i will try larger injector function.

[hellssephiroth]

ok here is what i came up with. As far as i can tell none of the adjustments change the hz reading.

Which table am i looking at for that?

[Greg E]

There aren't any tables on the MAFT to adjust the HZ signal. If none of the knobs or dip switches on the box will bring the airflow number down then you're gonna have to calibrate the intake tables (MAF scaling, MAF adder and MAF Smoothing) for this.

So you're getting 80-90hz at idle and your fuel trims are trying to take away as much fuel as possible this means you have to lower the numbers in the intake tables in that HZ range. Start with lowering the MAF smoothing number to be 10% less than the number that's there in the 80-100hz range. If that's still too much, take away another 5% and increment down like that. I wouldn't be surprised if you have to lower it as much as 30% before your idle gets down to a normal level and the o2s cycle.

FWIW this isn't an issue when the MAF is setup in draw thru.

[hellssephiroth]

I'm assuming it wasn't supposed to start shaking and varying rpms? The hz also went up past 120 im guessing from the surging?

[hellssephiroth]

should I have changed plug gap or anything prior to the e85? I have bkr7e i think they were in it gapped at .40

[Greg E]

Yes during the rpm surging you'll see spikes in the airflow.

I fail to see how spark plugs have anything to do with airflow.

[hellssephiroth]

sorry if i am being an idiot about this.... I just realized i have no idea what im doing and its frustrating me....

[hellssephiroth]

im just wondering about the shaking. Or is that just because of the fuel being added and pulled

[Greg E]

Fuel being added and pulled. See what going on is your MAFT is telling the ECU there is a LOT of air so it adds the fuel. This brings the RPMs up which draws in more air and more fuel. ECU realizes the RPMs are too high so it cuts back fuel. Cycle repeats.

What you have to tell the code is that 80-100hz isn't a lot of air so it doesn't keep adding that fuel and driving up your RPMs.

[Greg E]

BTW did you ever turn that bit back on and reflash???

[hellssephiroth]

heres the log.

[hellssephiroth]

That was before I messed with the table

[hellssephiroth]

sometimes the 02's spike up to like 80-0 is it supposed to be the small spikes or the big spikes? I think I know how to make them big or small thats why I am wondering.

[Greg E]

I can't really answer your questions because I don't know what's going on. The narrowbands are supposed to cycle in closed loop. That's how you know it's working. The range and length of the cycles isn't relevant. You should see around 14.7 AFR on your wideband when closed loop is functioning properly.

Reenabling that periphery bit will determine if the issue is something simple like your o2s being switched. No clue if you tested this or not.

If this isn't the case, you'll have to heed my advice about tuning the intake maps to get things back into spec.

[hellssephiroth]

Rear O2 has been changed twice, the one in it is brand new last night. The front one I'm wondering about though. I seem to have gotten it to idle a little better at 900ish. I need to go get some gas so we'll see whats up. I'll just turn the boost off for now and see if it is drivable like this.

[hellssephiroth]

Does 2byte airflow normally go pretty high. Like 800 no boost take off with a little throttle to get up to 45? I see the airflow hz is still about 125 range.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[hellssephiroth]

It seemed to drive ok. Better than before anyways.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[Greg E]

Airflow HZ and 2 byte airflow are the same. The minor variances in numbers are due to the resolution differences. There no reason to log airflow HZ. It pegs at 1599. 2 byte goes beyond that.

[hellssephiroth]

i think i got it to run a little better. check it out if you dont mind. it seems a little smoother anyways.

[hellssephiroth]

The "engine shaking" has stopped. I ran into a guy in town and he gave me a different latency chart that he uses for his evo. Whether that was the main reason it seems better or not I have no idea, but it does seem to idle a lot smoother.