AEM EMS Series 2 vs Chrome ECU

[AdamVR4]

I know this has already been discussed but I've spent a good deal of time thinking about it today and want to make sure I'm not off-base.

I assume both the Chrome ECU and the AEM EMS Series 2 adequately control fuel, timing, no-lift shifting, 2-step, etc. Functionally, they seem similar, which is why so many are opting for the cheaper, simpler to tune, chrome ECU's.


For my application, the Chrome ECU's KEY advantage relative to EMS:
- stock knock sensor / algorithm


For my application, AEM EMS s2's KEY advantage relative to Chrome:
- better datalogging


If I make the jump to E85, something that's always simultaneously tempted and scared me, that eliminates use of the knock sensor, effectively eliminating the Chrome ECU's key advantage.

I've got a local guy that I trust to dyno tune my car with the EMS. He doesn't mind me standing over his shoulder questioning him and he's willing to show me the ropes with the software.

What would you do?

[familyMAN]

From your build thread, I'll post it here as well...


I like my AEM series1 but would love to have series 2. Flex fuel and many safety features that should've been included years ago. (AFR lean limit by load, FP to load, etc). If you have the sensors and data, you can prevent catastrophic failure from common problems.

For example, what happens if one of my two fuel pumps fails or I spring a leak on the submersed line with Series 1 or chrome?? I'll have enough fuel to keep it running and toast a motor...

What happens on a series 2? Either FP safety feature or AFR will kick in and it will automatically cut fuel, ignition or boost (almost positive you can define response)....

[CoopKill]

I believe with the proper sensors that all can be accomplished in Chrome as well?

[Alex3000gt]

You've got a local guy, with a dyno who is willing to tune your car - with the caveat that it has AEM EMS.

I would go AEM EMS, it would be a great learning experience. I'll let other people chime in with technical reasons for and against.

[familyMAN]

Since I am only experienced with AEM my input is biased, only because I am not familiar with the pro's of Chrome.
Here is another pro for AEM...
Real-time tuning, no flash and retry. Very useful when trying to get big ass cams and injectors to idle well. Also useful when cruising down the interstate and trying to get something better than hummer gas mileage on e85. I made a ton of progress real-time on my 2 hr cruise to NG that I wasn't making with logging my cruising, making changes and uploading.

[AdamVR4]

You've got a local guy, with a dyno who is willing to tune your car - with the caveat that it has AEM EMS.

I would go AEM EMS, it would be a great learning experience.

That's a very good point. My biggest concern would be learning on a $10,000 3.5L 6G72. I could reduce that risk considerably by installing it on my original 3.0L...



Real-time tuning, no flash and retry.

That is a fairly significant advantage and one that I've really benefited from over the years with the lowly e-manage.


It may seem like my mind is made up, but this morning I was hell-bent on the Chrome ECU. Now I'm just confused.

Thanks guys.

[TurboSinceBirth]

The lack of real time tuning is a big strike for me since I've relied on that heavily in the past with different piggyback controllers. Chrome doesn't require nearly as much tweaking as an AEM starting from scratch with either system so effectively you will reach a point where it will be a moot point. I doubt Chrome will ever have SD since it isn't as accurate of a tuning method at least with the technology our cars were made with. There are new features always on the horizon for chrome but I doubt it will ever accomplish more than some of the most expensive standalones. If I had a trusted tuner that would help teach me what all the tables did I would probably go with that option. I've debated a long time about ponying up for a ProEFI and have threatened before to go standalone. I owned an AEM EMS v1 once before despite barely getting to use it on a 3.5L 5857 build.

I wouldn't be scared of running ethanol. You know what you're doing enough to understand the pitfalls of it. That's all there really is to it. I guarantee you'll love the extra torque switching fuels and probably won't want to go back. I couldn't stand pump gas levels on our piss poor 91 here. It was too slow. Lol. Conservative timing is what it's all about. If it really bothers you and I know you're one to get it done right, then you'll rent a dyno to tune for MTBT. Watch for the torque curve to stop increasing, back it off for a safety margin, and you'll be good as gold. I'm honestly not too sure I would consider messing with timing even using VD as a tuning tool. There's no way to real-time view the torque which I guess you can't do on a real dyno either but at least it feels safer to do a pull there.

[Greg E]

If I make the jump to E85, something that's always simultaneously tempted and scared me, that eliminates use of the knock sensor, effectively eliminating the Chrome ECU's key advantage.

You're confused because you keep filling your head with crazy ideas.

The same issue with tuning e85 is the same with an AEM and Chrome. You effectively get around the octane limitation of your fuel and reach into the realm where cylinder pressure becomes a danger. Neither chrome or AEM have an effective way to detect cylinder pressure.

Detonation is only one form of cylinder pressure. Excessive compression from too much air and too soon of a spark (too much timing) also causes cylinder pressure. As awesome as a microphone on top of the motor is, it can only tell you detonation is happening and by then it's too late.

Remember my thread about Ion knock detection? It effectively monitor cylinder pressure and can detect the pressure levels. Get really good at monitoring that and it can detect knock before it even happens.

Too bad neither chrome or AEM have the capability to utilize this technology. Believe me, it's something I very much want to add but just don't understand electronics well enough.

[Greg E]

Another large misconception is that you *need* live tuning... Wtf???

If you got a sensor that reads air mass (GM) or air volume (stock/EVO MAF) and the scaling/comp tables are setup properly, then the sensor will report correct airflow to the ECU and thus you'll have a running motor with stock or aftermarket cams. The closed loop feature gets around the fine tuning part and the fuel trims tell you what to do from there. It just works without the fuss... It's nothing like fucking around with a piggy back. You don't tune chrome. You calibrate the MAF sensor and injecors, set your desired AFR, flash and turn the key. It just works...

As for tuning for power. You don't tune while your foot is to the floor! You let the motor idle/cool then spend some time reviewing the logs. What's waiting another 10 seconds to flash the chip?

A major advantage to chrome is you always know your real time HP and Torque. I'm not talking about dyno calcs or any of that over engineered crap. The MAF itself is a true measure of air. So much real time useful data can be utilized knowing that key information. How else can a guy take a full second off the 1/4 mile time and gain over 6 mph without changing a single part under the hood??? ;)

[familyMAN]

Another large misconception is that you *need* live tuning... Wtf??? Attitude, WTF???

Never said it was a "need." I have just found it useful on my setup which is SD.

**Tuning idle and cruise on stock cams (or street cam regrinds) and reasonably sized injectors is quite a bit different than race cams and fire hoses when you are trying to get some streetability below 3500 rpms. Weird stuff happens to AFRs (even bank to bank differences) due to overlap, dead times, etc. Only sharing my experience and what helped me.

Maybe Chrome would be better but to my knowledge no one has tried to tune 280 cams and 1450 injectors on chrome? If so, I would love to hear their experience!!

Maybe a large MAF is the ticket. Obviously worked for Matt M.

Never looked into it personally, but doesn't AEM work with a MAF also if that is preferred?

[Greg E]

I'm sure some tweaking will need to be had, but the beautiful thing about the OBD2 closed loop feature is its ability to compensate for you. If the MAF is calibrated properly, idle and cruise should work just fine. It's just airflow and ignition timing... I've never seen a better idle timing compensation feature than the stock ECU.

[AdamVR4]

I'd really like to hear about the differences between the way the Chrome ECU and AEM EMS handle 2-step/launch control and NLTS. Thanks to anyone that has any input...



You're confused because you keep filling your head with crazy ideas.

haha! I agree with you, you won't know anything is wrong on E85 until it's too late, regardless of tuning device.

My point was... I have a lot of faith in the stock knock sensor / ECU to check me when I'm getting close to breaking pistons. Every time I've pushed the tune, the stock knock sensor has been there. If you give me the knock sensor output, I can tune a 3S with my ass. Without it, I will feel like I'm naked, wandering through the wilderness. To me, this is the single biggest advantage of sticking with the stock or Chromed ECU.

If I commit to E85 (the power gains are stupid, peak compressive conrod stresses are lower at a given power level than gasoline, I'd immediately pass emissions testing, and I have 2 stations within 5 minutes of my house), any knock sensor would suddenly be useless.

If the knock sensor is useless, the Chrome ECU's advantages become: ease of use, community support, and cost ... Leaving the AEM EMS with better datalogging.

If I didn't have some tuning confidence, a dyno tuner I trust (again, 5 minutes from the house), and several I can get phone & base map support from, the ease of tuning of the Chrome would make it the clear winner.

So it seems I'm left paying roughly $1000 extra for the EMS and tuning/dyno time for... better data logging and a few safety features...

[familyMAN]

Greg, Agreed about a stable idle. Ignition timing adjustments are the key there and the stock ecu has it figured out. I do have mine pretty darn good at 950rpms with a moderate+ setup with inferior SD and inferior tuner vs Mitsu engineering dept;)

I'd still like to see the results of someone use Chrome with a much wilder setup than those using it now.

[TurboSinceBirth]

A major advantage to chrome is you always know your real time HP and Torque. I'm not talking about dyno calcs or any of that over engineered crap. The MAF itself is a true measure of air. So much real time useful data can be utilized knowing that key information. How else can a guy take a full second off the 1/4 mile time and gain over 6 mph without changing a single part under the hood??? ;)

How exactly do you know if the MAF sensor is calibrated correctly? May be a stupid question but is it something that involves returning a car to stock to know what X airflow should equal Y hp? Reason I ask is I'll be using a Ford MAF either the 92mm I have or a slot style in blow-through but how will I know how far off my scaling is if I don't have any existing hard data correlating to my specific mods? Is it a matter of matching up scaling to the vacuum portion of the load map? Actually, I doubt most sensor scaling is linear so I doubt that would work.

[Greg E]

Greg, Agreed about a stable idle. Ignition timing adjustments are the key there and the stock ecu has it figured out. I do have mine pretty darn good at 950rpms with a moderate+ setup with inferior SD and inferior tuner vs Mitsu engineering dept;)

I'd still like to see the results of someone use Chrome with a much wilder setup than those using it now.

Maybe I'm just over tired but I could have sworn I read your last post differently 10 min ago...

As for wild setups, mine is still waiting on parts but even that isn't a truly wild setup (DR750s, stroker, e85, 1000cc injectors). There just really aren't that many cars getting built these days...

[Greg E]

How exactly do you know if the MAF sensor is calibrated correctly? May be a stupid question but is it something that involves returning a car to stock to know what X airflow should equal Y hp? Reason I ask is I'll be using a Ford MAF either the 92mm I have or a slot style in blow-through but how will I know how far off my scaling is if I don't have any existing hard data correlating to my specific mods? Is it a matter of matching up scaling to the vacuum portion of the load map? Actually, I doubt most sensor scaling is linear so I doubt that would work.

All that data on sensor calibration goes out the window with blow thru... You're back to guessing and checking.

FWIW I'm working on a custom 3.75" MAF setup (draw thru) that'll go well beyond the HP limits of 90% of everyone's setup and won't impede airflow.

[Greg E]

I'd really like to hear about the differences between the way the Chrome ECU and AEM EMS handle 2-step/launch control and NLTS. Thanks to anyone that has any input...

Its a static rev limiter. Set your "speed zero" rev limit and set your clutch in rev limit.

Anti lag and fuel enrichment come in with the "speed zero" rev limiter.

[J. Fast]

I've installed and tuned AEM V1, V2, and Chrome ECU on my personal vehicles. I prefer the AEM. I like real time tuning strategy and the ability to build my own fail safes. One thing that's not mentioned very often is the additional sockets avail on the EMS. It's possible to build all sorts of tables with constraints to cater the setup to end user needs. If something is missing or needs a table it's possible to build one and point sensors to it. I really believe real time data streaming time on the fly adjustments is where it's at, and AEM Real Time Live Trace 3-D is sweet. Also, AEM's V2 flex fuel sensor upgrade is cake and a secondary knock sensor can be added by creating a table with provisions on an open port on the EMS. Knock sensing shouldn't be a big worry though, a long time ago muscle cars didn't come with them. Knock sensor stuff is over rated and relying on it as a major fail safe is quite reckless. E-85 is quiet on the stock knock sensor with Chrome and AEM, however, there's other tells outside of knock voltage when MBT has been surpassed.

Both require similar time and energy to initially install, setup, and micro manage. One thing I never could dial in on the Chrome ECU was a certain hot start issue with monster injectors. A few times when my engine was hot it wouldn't fire. I plugged in my AEM and it would fire immediately. My learning curve and patience was not there for me seeing as I already had my setup mastered... so instead of trying to figure it out I plugged in what I knew and what I had time for. Not sure if there's others who've encountered that issue, but it was damn frustrating.

[familyMAN]

Maybe I'm just over tired but I could have sworn I read your last post differently 10 min ago...

As for wild setups, mine is still waiting on parts but even that isn't a truly wild setup (DR750s, stroker, e85, 1000cc injectors). There just really aren't that many cars getting built these days...

Not sure what you mean? I edited it slightly, but the direction of my comments have been the same. I have experience with AEM so can only comment on what I know. I also know that no one is running as wild of setup as I am with chrome so far.

No offense meant, but I don't consider 1000cc and stock cams as wild as far as tuning is considered. DR750's, 3.5 and e85 will sure be some wild tq and response though!!

[mb3000]

I'll be able to give a good comparison when I get this build finished. AEM S2 on the old car and Chrome on the current one. I will also be able to test stock maf/ montero maf/ MAFT & 3.5 GM Maf and give my opinion about that.

[Greg E]

Not sure what you mean? I edited it slightly, but the direction of my comments have been the same. I have experience with AEM so can only comment on what I know. I also know that no one is running as wild of setup as I am with chrome so far.

No offense meant, but I don't consider 1000cc and stock cams as wild as far as tuning is considered. DR750's, 3.5 and e85 will sure be some wild tq and response though!!

Maybe we are both tired. I said my setup isn't wild. :lol:

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I mean if matt can run 8.xx at 166 on the stock ecu I'm not sure why you guys think a editable stock ecu is going to hold you back, but OK.

[familyMAN]

Maybe we are both tired. I said my setup isn't wild. :lol:

Yep:D I skipped right over "not truly wild":)

[TurboSinceBirth]

All that data on sensor calibration goes out the window with blow thru... You're back to guessing and checking.

FWIW I'm working on a custom 3.75" MAF setup (draw thru) that'll go well beyond the HP limits of 90% of everyone's setup and won't impede airflow.

So what about calibrating a draw-thru maf then? I've run blow-thru before without it being any harder to tune. I'd probably be ok with 2.25" pre-turbo pipes on TD04s running draw-thru but if I upgraded bigger I'm sure I would be very tempted to ditch the stock air bubble even though it has "worked" for some high hp setups. I know there are gains to be had without it.

[Greg E]

I mean if matt can run 8.xx at 166 on the stock ecu I'm not sure why you guys think a editable stock ecu is going to hold you back, but OK.

Very few people have shown results with a flash ECU therefore its logical to conclude it doesn't work as well. No one even considered flash ECU till I took my 98 to the track last year...

[familyMAN]

FWIW, I am "almost" sure, I would have gone fECU/Chrome if it was available when I bought my AEM setup, but I also really like my simplified pre turbo intake setup that IMO looks really good and vanity steps into my decisions too often!

[Greg E]

So what about calibrating a draw-thru maf then? I've run blow-thru before without it being any harder to tune. I'd probably be ok with 2.25" pre-turbo pipes on TD04s running draw-thru but if I upgraded bigger I'm sure I would be very tempted to ditch the stock air bubble even though it has "worked" for some high hp setups. I know there are gains to be had without it.

What I hope to show in testing is that you can literally take my MAF, plug it right into the stock connector, set the values according to my screen shots, flash and turn the key. Just like an EVO MAF swap only moah betta.

[Greg E]

FWIW, I am "almost" sure, I would have gone fECU/Chrome if it was available when I bought my AEM setup, but I also really like my simplified pre turbo intake setup that IMO looks really good and vanity steps into my decisions too often!

I'm sure a SD setup for the flash ECU would completely turn the page. Problem is, no one will want to invest the time to properly tune it. Especially since you can't tune it live...

[CoopKill]

Wait. "My MAF"? I needz to know moarer!

[AdamVR4]

The Chrome ECU requires basically no modification to my existing set-up. I could retain my scanmaster (which I require while drag racing), and blow thru LT1 MAF... All I'd lose would be my '93 overclocked 8030 rpm ECU (eh), the WOT Box (ha), the e-manage (unless I wanted it for real time tuning?)... Huh. It really would be the natural choice for my car.

[mb3000]

I'm sure a SD setup for the flash ECU would completely turn the page. Problem is, no one will want to invest the time to properly tune it. Especially since you can't tune it live...

I would not feel comfortable tuning SD without live tuning. IMO it defeats the purpose of the fEcu.

[familyMAN]

To keep the discussion going....



A major advantage to chrome is you always know your real time HP and Torque. I'm not talking about dyno calcs or any of that over engineered crap. The MAF itself is a true measure of air.

True that you are measuring true airflow across MAF but the MAF has no idea what compression ratio you are running, post intercooler temps, AFR, or timing so you are not measuring "horsepower" just airflow. It's what you do with that airflow to make the magic happen:)

[DuTTch]

Adam for what its worth, Alan who you met at TX gathering tuned my car on AEM 2 , he had no experience with aem and picked it up easily. His background was Greddy EMU.

[anyonebutme]

To keep the discussion going....


True that you are measuring true airflow across MAF but the MAF has no idea what compression ratio you are running, post intercooler temps, AFR, or timing so you are not measuring "horsepower" just airflow. It's what you do with that airflow to make the magic happen:)

Awesome thing about MASS airflow is it doesn't matter what pressure ratio your turbos are running, or how effecient your intercooler is, or anything downstream........it's all taken into account. your intercooler cools air better? that means you have to draw in more mass for the same volume.........neat, isn't it?

[familyMAN]

Awesome thing about MASS airflow is it doesn't matter what pressure ratio your turbos are running, or how effecient your intercooler is, or anything downstream........it's all taken into account. your intercooler cools air better? that means you have to draw in more mass for the same volume.........neat, isn't it?

?? If my intercooler is more efficient my turbos draw in more air?? And how does the MAF know what compression ratio or fuel I'm running?? So I can run a highly oxygenated fuel and 14:1 and my MAF is going to register more air mass, which is all post MAF?

A MAF has no way of knowing how efficient or aggressively tuned your particular setup is, only what is coming into it, which it can do very accurately. If you want to derive a hp number from that, guess what, it's a calculation:D

[ja3gt]

subscribed..

[mehrshadvr4]

I mean if matt can run 8.xx at 166 on the stock ecu I'm not sure why you guys think a editable stock ecu is going to hold you back, but OK.

What if Matt could run 8.3 with AEM EMS? never think twice that you are good enough with what has been done. Always try to get better. Anyway The AEM v2 with updated software is a very powerful EMS. It has bunch of engine protection future and what not. They are not even comparable. If you decide to run E85 they now have flex fuel in the new software so you can alway run the fuel you need and not worry about having different ethanol percentage in the fuel. Here is a small video from FSR and the updated AEM V2. This is pretty new for the software and I'm not sure if all shops have this, but you can contact FSR and they'll assist you with whatever you need to know. They might even give you some discount compare to other shop prices . I bought my proefi from them and they were and are very helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h38jB0hSInw

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

What if Matt could run 8.3 with AEM EMS? never think twice that you are good enough with what has been done. Always try to get better. Anyway The AEM v2 with updated software is a very powerful EMS. It has bunch of engine protection future and what not. They are not even comparable. If you decide to run E85 they now have flex fuel in the new software so you can alway run the fuel you need and not worry about having different ethanol percentage in the fuel. Here is a small video from FSR and the updated AEM V2. This is pretty new for the software and I'm not sure if all shops have this, but you can contact FSR and they'll assist you with whatever you need to know. They might even give you some discount compare to other shop prices . I bought my proefi from them and they were and are very helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h38jB0hSInw

you are the first to admit you don't know how to tune, so why do you always want to tell others what tools to use? What difference does it make to you if we don't ride AEM or Pro-EFI's sack all the time and realize that the only thing that matters in the end is the afr and timing are where we want.

[Greg E]

the only thing that matters in the end is the afr and timing are where we want.

This is what I've told people for months now whenever the flash ECU vs piggy back debate comes up. In terms of HP, any tuning device will get you that.

The advantage comes when you think about which one has the better drivability with less finagling? :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

This is what I've told people for months now whenever the flash ECU vs piggy back debate comes up. In terms of HP, any tuning device will get you that.

The advantage comes when you think about which one has the better drivability with less finagling? :)

quick question I wanted to ask you Greg, is there a request ID for knock voltage?

[Greg E]

It's not in the public release??? Could have sworn I put it in there...

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

It's not in the public release??? Could have sworn I put it in there...

no you are right, I just missed it

[Greg E]

?? If my intercooler is more efficient my turbos draw in more air??

Obviously it's not gonna tell you any kind of HP number but being able to see true airflow allows you to see changes as you up the boost. There comes a point where airflow doesn't increase for every psi you raise. This is how you can monitor turbo efficiency on your individual setup on your car. One you determine max airflow, you then can tweak timing followed by HP.

This is why the stock BCS is far superior to any boost controler. It works off airflow, not psi.

[anyonebutme]

?? If my intercooler is more efficient my turbos draw in more air??

yes...

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Obviously it's not gonna tell you any kind of HP number but being able to see true airflow allows you to see changes as you up the boost. There comes a point where airflow doesn't increase for every psi you raise. This is how you can monitor turbo efficiency on your individual setup on your car. One you determine max airflow, you then can tweak timing followed by HP.

This is why the stock BCS is far superior to any boost controler. It works off airflow, not psi.

If the intercooler is more efficient then yeah the turbos should be drawing in more air. If the air inside the engine is denser it had to come from somewhere.

[familyMAN]

Still doesn't tell you the hp you are making as Greg originally stated. It is measuring air. I agree, great way to see what is happening when you raise boost and if airflow is increasing but it doesn't tell you directly the hp real-time as was stated originally.

Again, it doesn't know anything beyond airflow/mass. The ecu knows fuel and timing but that would still be a calculation to derive an approx hp and doesn't take into affect compression ratio.

My understanding is raising timing also wouldn't affect the airflow so again cannot determine if it was beneficial or not without a dyno or Virtual Dyno comparison.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Right, so when tuning I let the car idle, review the logs, plug it into virtual dyno to be sure there are gains, make any adjustments, and reflash.

I'm not sure how live tuning helps if you are going to approach the tuning like that. The only time it would be nice is on a eddy current dyno because you could hold the engine in one spot and adjust timing that way.

[familyMAN]

What??? I wasn't talking about live tuning. Greg stated a MAF is superior because you get real airflow numbers AND real-time HP without a silly Virtual Dyno.

I say "yes", real airflow which is definitely useful, but "no" not real-time hp.

Not talking about real-time tuning.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

What??? I wasn't talking about live tuning. Greg stated a MAF is superior because you get real airflow numbers AND real-time HP without a silly Virtual Dyno.

I say "yes", real airflow which is definitely useful, but "no" not real-time hp.

Not talking about real-time tuning.

wow, I didn't know you were the only one in the thread, but okay.

[familyMAN]

You posted right after mine and didn't quote anyone. Sorry. Looked like you were answering about my real-time hp calculation so it seemed like a really confusing post! :)

[anyonebutme]

Right, so when tuning I let the car idle, review the logs, plug it into virtual dyno to be sure there are gains, make any adjustments, and reflash.

I'm not sure how live tuning helps if you are going to approach the tuning like that. The only time it would be nice is on a eddy current dyno because you could hold the engine in one spot and adjust timing that way.

On the dyno live tuning makes it so much easier, but even on the street live tuning can be a huge help tuning idle and cruise drivability. When the emulator for the 7.3l came out people learned a ton of stuff really quickly that they missed while tuning the way we do. Stuff like how in a port injection engine, injector timing itself has an impact on how it runs especially at idle.

That and it'll change the tuning process from 50+ flashes to 1 or 2.

[Greg E]

Anyway, back to the OP...

Adam I must admit there are a couple draw backs to the flash ECU which you may or may not have considered.

*This whole tuning method is done using open source software which means, you need to install different programs to do one or two things. Unlike AEM which is a nice, simple, all-in-one program, to tune flash you need to install ECUFlash, EVOScan then set BOTH programs up to use chrome.... For someone who isn't very computer snazzy, this part is frustrating. Especially if you're running the newer versions of windows.

*The HUGE pitfall to a flash ECU is the inferior memory hardware. Bricked ECUs happen more often than I'm comfortable with and now that I understand how it happens, it's frustrating because there not much which can be done to prevent it. I am working on solutions which allow the user to "repair" it without sending it in but this all still in the experimental stage and it also sacrifices future flashability...

That said, statisticly, you're safe from failure. Out if the 150 so units sold, less than 20 have bricked to my knowledge. The most common ECUs to brick are non-clone ECUs (AKA 98/99 SL ECUs out of junk yards) due to various reasons. Stick with Adam or Brett's clones, you're golden. :)

Short of switching to a newer Mitsubishi ECU (which can't happen with our current knowledge of CAN BUS), there's not anything I can do to avoid these two pit falls right now. :(

[Greg E]

I don't want to get into the subject of live tuning because I have a thing against advertising something that's not completed but there is something in the works to bring live tuning to the flash ECU. Just don't hold your breath... It involves completely re-writing the serial protocol on the chip and designing new software (from scratch) to interact with it. I can't give any time frame or even a promise that it will be finished but its something that's been discussed and could be possibly be introduce in the near future.

Somwthing else i personally am working on is an external tuning device which will work directly with Chrome which can be adjusted live. The concept still needs to be tested but tuning it will be as simple as say tuning the ARC2 only it's not a piggyback, it's just a correction factor read by the ECU during its airflow and timing calculations. :)

[familyMAN]

So Greg, in your opinion, 800awhp, e85, 1300+ injectors, moderate to wild cams, no issues or pitfalls with Chrome?

I keep hearing about Chrome and Flex Fuel. Can you elaborate on what is available today?

[Greg E]

I have switchable maps coded, tested and running. True flex fuel is on the back burner till I get my MAF sensor tested along a few alternative boost control solenoids. The GM ethanol sensor has been sitting in a box by my computer for a year now...

The current pitfalls to chrome is you have to use a MAFT or ARC2 to get around the MAF limitations to get that 800hp mark.

[AdamVR4]

Anyway, back to the OP...

Adam I must admit there are a couple draw backs to the flash ECU which you may or may not have considered.

*This whole tuning method is done using open source software which means, you need to install different programs to do one or two things. Unlike AEM which is a nice, simple, all-in-one program, to tune flash you need to install ECUFlash, EVOScan then set BOTH programs up to use chrome.... For someone who isn't very computer snazzy, this part is frustrating. Especially if you're running the newer versions of windows.

*The HUGE pitfall to a flash ECU is the inferior memory hardware. Bricked ECUs happen more often than I'm comfortable with and now that I understand how it happens, it's frustrating because there not much which can be done to prevent it. I am working on solutions which allow the user to "repair" it without sending it in but this all still in the experimental stage and it also sacrifices future flashability...

That said, statisticly, you're safe from failure. Out if the 150 so units sold, less than 20 have bricked to my knowledge. The most common ECUs to brick are non-clone ECUs (AKA 98/99 SL ECUs out of junk yards) due to various reasons. Stick with Adam or Brett's clones, you're golden. :)

Short of switching to a newer Mitsubishi ECU (which can't happen with our current knowledge of CAN BUS), there's not anything I can do to avoid these two pit falls right now. :(

Thank you for the honesty regarding the issues. As fun as it would be to learn the AEM EMS, the thought of losing my scanmaster scares me :p Especially since the only advantage I see to the EMS is better logging and more safety features. Staring at knock has always been enough of a safety feature for me... And it sounds like it will be easier to have a rock solid low throttle tune right-off-the-bat with the Chrome than the EMS on my future engine. That's not a trivial point.

Here's my plan, please look it over and let me know if I'm delusional or mis-informed

Get my injectors cleaned or replace with new. Probably just cleaned for now unless I ever commit to E85...

Yank out my overclocked '93 ECU. Replace it with a clone from Adam. Does Adam's clone ECU include/require an adapter harness? I really don't want to mess with my harness because it's been spliced into a LOT. LOL.

Update my scanmaster (if necessary, already PM'ed TurboBob) to read the clone ECU.

Ensure that my MAF-T is zero'ed out (or am I to use it for the base injector correction?)

Set the rev-limit on the clone ECU to 8000 RPM.

Set the 2-step and NLTS. I hated 2 things about the WOT Box: 1) couldn't see the tach when the 2-step was engaged; 2) ignition cut alone during the 2-step process seemed to result in plug fouling and fuel contaminating the engine oil... HOW do these features work on the chrome ECU?

Use the e-manage to experiment in real-time, but ultimately make changes by flashing.

Sell WOT Box & 93 over-clocked ECU...

[Greg E]

Adams stuff is plug and play but there are a few wires which also need to be plugged into the harness. It's not difficult.

If you get ahold of TurboBob, can you also get him in touch with me? There is much I want to discuss with him.

*most stuff from your scan master will work with the flash ECU but not everything. RPM for example can only read to 7968rpms. Bob will need my request IDs and scalinga to make you a logger that is truly compatible.

I think I answered your question about launch control and NLTS in the other thread but its simply a static rev limiter. NLTS uses the clutch input. Launch control uses TPS and Speed. You will have to hook up the TPS wire into the Jesters PnP ECU but Adam will give you the wire if you ask nicely. :)

There is nothing wrong with keeping your emanage hooked up for live tuning. I know a few people who keep their SAFC hooked up for the same reason. Setup is simple. Zero everything out on the MAFT and emanage, set your timing, fuel table and injectors with Chrome, flash, turn the key. Tweak emanage fuel corrections if necessary. :)

Just a warning, I'm not sure which version of the MAFT you're using but a 3" blow thru MAF using the MAFT PRO has shown an annoying throttle hang which I'm convicted is caused by the idle enrichment feature of the MAFT PRO. Not sure if the 2.0 MAFT experiences the same issue or not.

[RealMcCoy]

I have pretty limited experience with tuning either one, so I can't be much help in the details, but I can comment on the idea of using big cams. The lumpy idle you get with huge cams is basically misfires. that doesn't play well with oxygen sensors and closed loop operation. The main issue for tuning that I would want available If I was running huge cams is the ability to command open loop at idle.

Although I've never seen a cam marketed for these cars yet that I would term as huge... And most of the time you will do just fine by commanding a higher idle speed and getting it out of the lumpy idle stage.

[AdamVR4]

Adams stuff is plug and play but there are a few wires which also need to be plugged into the harness. It's not difficult.

I assume detailed instructions are in the tech manual found here..? http://www.3sgto.org/tuning-engine-electronics-ecu-discussions/10777-chrome-v2-tech-manual.html#post211650



If you get ahold of TurboBob, can you also get him in touch with me? There is much I want to discuss with him.

Looks like he checks 3si every couple weeks.



*most stuff from your scan master will work with the flash ECU but not everything. RPM for example can only read to 7968rpms. Bob will need my request IDs and scalinga to make you a logger that is truly compatible.

I log through the scanmaster, so it sounds like I should make my rev limit a hair below 8000 rpm's to hide that tiny bit of incompatibility. No problem at all, for now. Let's say that in the future I want to rev to 9000 RPM's -- if I want to log to 9000 RPM's, I'd need to log through the diagnostic port and bypass the scanmaster?


I think I answered your question about launch control and NLTS in the other thread but its simply a static rev limiter.

Does that mean it cuts fuel? spark? both?



NLTS uses the clutch input. Launch control uses TPS and Speed. You will have to hook up the TPS wire into the Jesters PnP ECU but Adam will give you the wire if you ask nicely. :)

Is this covered in the technical manual?



There is nothing wrong with keeping your emanage hooked up for live tuning. I know a few people who keep their SAFC hooked up for the same reason. Setup is simple. Zero everything out on the MAFT and emanage, set your timing, fuel table and injectors with Chrome, flash, turn the key. Tweak emanage fuel corrections if necessary. :)

Just a warning, I'm not sure which version of the MAFT you're using but a 3" blow thru MAF using the MAFT PRO has shown an annoying throttle hang which I'm convicted is caused by the idle enrichment feature of the MAFT PRO. Not sure if the 2.0 MAFT experiences the same issue or not.

v1.3... old and simple.

[Greg E]

Adam has detailed setup instructions on the website Chromed ECU | 3SGTO Flash Tuning (http://www.chromedecu.org)

It cuts both fuel and spark. Looking into changing this up in the next version though.

If you need to log 9000rpms, you'll need to use EVOScan. ...until I get ahold of Bob anyway....

[markoverclock]

why not just use a standalone and sell all the other crap on your car you will no longer need. In the end the standalone is better, all you have to do is learn some new software interface. Just fyi the flex fuel for v2 will be released Aug 7th. With aem you will have faster datalogging, one interface, real time tuning, flex fuel, and user adjustable fail safe inputs. And no brick ecu to possibly leave you hanging.

Just curious why would you even consider these two comparable vs the prices its not like were talking about $200 ecu vs $2000 ecu.

[Greg E]

Yeah... We're talking about $600 vs $2000. :lol:

[markoverclock]

Yeah... We're talking about $600 vs $2000. :lol:

if you cant find a series 2 for a lot less than 2k your paying over retail.

[markoverclock]

But that is my question is he only price locked. If so then thats his budget. If not they are not comparable.

[Greg E]

Sure they are. We went over the pros and cons in this thread. :)

[markoverclock]

Question was for Adam. I know your trying to sell your stuff. Hell im not selling anything, i already sold my aem and got the pro 128 reason being its faster better and has more control over the engine.

how much can you get for your emanage, scanmaster, etc. those wont be needed with aem. So you can add that to the aem price if needed. I want to know what is leaning you toward clone?

[Greg E]

Just want to be clear:

I am not selling anything. Chrome is donation-ware.

Adam and Brett sell ECUs.

[mehrshadvr4]

you are the first to admit you don't know how to tune, so why do you always want to tell others what tools to use? What difference does it make to you if we don't ride AEM or Pro-EFI's sack all the time and realize that the only thing that matters in the end is the afr and timing are where we want.

Matter of fact it doesn't make any difference to me what people use even if I knew how to tune. Neither for any other person posting here beside Greg E since he's selling the Chrome ECU. If the only thing mattered at the end was just the AFR and Timing then you can just get E-manage ultimate and have the ability to adjust timing and fuel so does this mean the $5k motec is a waist of money? I don't know how to tune because I never bother to work with it, but I know a lot about cars. I didn't owe $40k to school for nothing. If you look at futures of each system then any person with common sense will know AEM 2 with the new software is a much more powerful ECU.

[AdamVR4]

if you cant find a series 2 for a lot less than 2k your paying over retail.

I've been told ~$1400 for EMS s2 + $30 for an IAT + $400 for dyno tuning.

But I don't want the price to be the deciding factor for me here.

I should have given the Chrome ECU one other major advantage - it allows for the continued use of the scanmaster for real time knock and fuel monitoring. My scanmaster is mounted into my main gauge cluster bezel (so add $50-$70 for a new bezel to the cost of an AEM ;)). Drag racing without this would be terrifying to me, haha. The Chrome allows me to keep kicking the E85 can down the road if I choose to, while in order to justify the EMS, I'd have to switch to E85 full time (not a problem).

I don't see the fail-safes as a major advantage. I'm not sure I'd ever take the time to set them up. While the flex fuel AEM stuff sounds nice, I've never hesitated to drain my tank.

The only thing I hate about my car is the WOT Box. It's really the biggest motivator here. Funny since it's just a $200 turd. Either choice allows me to pull that POS out.

I wish the datalogging sample-rate was higher with EvoScan, but that seems like the only true advantage the EMS has for ME. I'd essentially spend ~$800+ extra to have a better datalogger and lose my ability to see knock while drag racing (again, not an issue if I go E85).

I figure the e-manage, maf-t, wot box, scanmaster, and overclocked ECU have next to zero value on 3Si... The thought of ditching them for an all-in-one solution has been appealing to me for several years now. What can I get for this pile of piggies on ebay? The Chrome ECU should allow me to eventually ditch the e-manage, so the set-up would be simplified a little -- just a Chrome ECU, MAF-T, and scanmaster...

Yesterday morning I was sure I'd go Chrome. Last night I was sure I'd go EMS. Now I'm leaning back toward Chrome, haha...

[Greg E]

You can get better sampling out of EVOScan but it requires buying the 1.3 tactrix cable. I don't really advertise this because its more $$ for something that's a non-issue.

I can get 2x the sample rate out of the 1.3 cable vs using the 2.0. No clue why...

[AdamVR4]

You can get better sampling out of EVOScan but it requires buying the 1.3 tactrix cable. I don't really advertise this because its more $$ for something that's a non-issue.

I can get 2x the sample rate out of the 1.3 cable vs using the 2.0. No clue why...

Okay, so here's my set-up. I'd like to retain this because it was a PITA.

Diagnostic port to Scanmaster 3... From SM3 with RJ11 cable... into RJ11 to Serial Adapter... into Serial to USB Adapter with FTDI chip... into USB port @ Laptop

I see the tactrix cable plugs into the diagnostic port

http://tunertools.com/prodimages/Tactrix/OpenPort13U_Small.jpg

WTF is that giant black connector?

[mehrshadvr4]

Your multi tasking must be very good to have your eyes on on the knock, fuel, RPM and road while racing LOL. I melted my pistons when I was racing. I knew something was wrong but it was fine when I raced a bike like 30 min before it, but when I raced a friend I wasn't paying attention to the A/F and after letting of my car was missing. :( If I had The newer AEM or better pro EFI the ECU would have cut boost or add fuel to get rid of this problem. On AEM it seems like it only cut spark which is better than blowing up the engine. After all you should look in to each ECU's future and decide if the extra $$$ for AEM is wroth to you for what you need to do.

[Greg E]

Well... You need Adams OBD1 to OBD 2 cable (which comes with his ECU) then that big black connector goes into his adaptor cable. The big black plug is the OBD2 plug. Also, that's the 1.3 cable. You need the 2.0 cable (Adam sells them on his site).

You don't need the Mitsubishi reflash connector (white one). Adams adaptor comes with the reflash wire.

[AdamVR4]

Your multi tasking must be very good to have your eyes on on the knock, fuel, RPM and road while racing LOL.

You prioritize what you look at and take in the rest peripherally. I don't street race, but if I did, obviously the road would be the priority. At a drag strip, I don't need to focus on the road. When I see knock or a spot in the A:F I want to adjust, I just make a mental note of the RPM and make the adjustment. That's why I didn't datalog for the longest time. Now I'm hoping to do both.



I melted my pistons when I was racing. I knew something was wrong but it was fine when I raced a bike like 30 min before it, but when I raced a friend I wasn't paying attention to the A/F and after letting of my car was missing. :( If I had The newer AEM or better pro EFI the ECU would have cut boost or add fuel to get rid of this problem.

What kind of fuel and boost?



After all you should look in to each ECU's future...

That's a legit point. The AEM will probably be supported longer than the Chrome ECU / MAF-T / scanmaster / e-manage...

[aaronatstate]

Adam, I also wrote a more detailed write up on how to install the plug and play ecu from Adam into a 1G. It's super easy.

Also as another note, I've been running E85 since March now. I have Evo560s with the based pressure turned up to ~55psi to turn them in to 640s. I get very solid AFRs right around 12:1 at WOT, with about 4-5 degrees more timing than I was running on gas. I should note that with my 8.3:1 Wiseco's and decked heads my compression ratio is up around 9:1. Not to mention I turned my boost up about 5.5psi too.

I have had ZERO issues running E85. On the way home from NG, I got 21.4mpg on E85. Which would be over 30mpg on regular gasoline. If you are at all thinking about switching, I would highly recommend it. The only thing I changed at first to get my car to run on E85 was the injector size, nothing else. Both my car and I have never been happier :w00t:

Also in terms of longevitity of Chrome. I'd say even if Greg stops releasing new versions, once the last version is done, as long as it can be downloaded that is really the only support that is needed. The flashing and logging software is all made by other people. OpenECU, Tactrix, and EvoScan are used heavily by the Evo guys, so I doubt the support for those is going anywhere anytime soon.

[AdamVR4]

Chromed ECU | 91-93 Plug and Play Flash Ecu Installation (http://chromedecu.org/?p=992)

If I'm seeing that correctly... It appears I will need to unplug the scanmaster from the 1G diagnostic port in order to connect the flashing cable. Is this true? Could this cause any problems?

It also appears that I can retain my logging set-up as-is (WBO2 to serial to laptop & MAP sensor to EGR-T input on ECU)... Is this true?

[aaronatstate]

Chromed ECU | 91-93 Plug and Play Flash Ecu Installation (http://chromedecu.org/?p=992)

If I'm seeing that correctly... It appears I will need to unplug the scanmaster from the 1G diagnostic port in order to connect the flashing cable. Is this true? Could this cause any problems?

It also appears that I can retain my logging set-up as-is (WBO2 to serial to laptop & MAP sensor to EGR-T input on ECU)... Is this true?

Yes, you will need to unplug the scanmaster in order to flash. It shouldn't cause any issues with flashing. Yes you can wire in the map sensor to log via the ECU. You can also wire in your WB02 to the ECU as well. When logging though, you'd only be able to use the Scanmaster, or EvoScan.

[Greg E]

You gotta move the wideband and map into other pins. ...and now that I think about it, that won't work for logging via scan master. Unless I get ahold of bob...

You will also have to swap every time you want to log/flash

[mehrshadvr4]

You prioritize what you look at and take in the rest peripherally. I don't street race, but if I did, obviously the road would be the priority. At a drag strip, I don't need to focus on the road. When I see knock or a spot in the A:F I want to adjust, I just make a mental note of the RPM and make the adjustment. That's why I didn't datalog for the longest time. Now I'm hoping to do both.




What kind of fuel and boost?




That's a legit point. The AEM will probably be supported longer than the Chrome ECU / MAF-T / scanmaster / e-manage...
True. You can keep your eyes on the gages better when you are at the track. I was running 18 psi and 93 octane. I went with pro efi because how much faster it process data compare to other ECMs and it also react to unwanted changes very fast. It's precision and timing control and also how it improves timing control compare to factory with the new timing gear that it came with sold me. With the power I'm chasing accuracy and speed of ECM is very important. How much power are you planning to make? It might be too late if you see knock at very high power runs. Your ECM probably see and corrects or prevent knock much faster than you can react as soon as you saw knock on the gauge.

[AdamVR4]

You gotta move the wideband and map into other pins. ...and now that I think about it, that won't work for logging via scan master. Unless I get ahold of bob...

You will also have to swap every time you want to log/flash

Well, shit. So neither option lets me keep the scanmaster. Guess I'll continue to put this off, find a better 'wot box', & try to increase the evoscan sampling rate. Bummer.

[TurboSinceBirth]

?? If my intercooler is more efficient my turbos draw in more air?? And how does the MAF know what compression ratio or fuel I'm running?? So I can run a highly oxygenated fuel and 14:1 and my MAF is going to register more air mass, which is all post MAF?

A MAF has no way of knowing how efficient or aggressively tuned your particular setup is, only what is coming into it, which it can do very accurately. If you want to derive a hp number from that, guess what, it's a calculation:D

Ideal gas law. PV=nRT. Everything else equal with a pressure drop due to an inefficient intercooler the number of moles your engine will see is obviously less since they're proportionally related. The MAF sensor doesn't care what size your motor is, the fuel you run, or how much compression you have. Why do you suppose we can run a Z06 6.0L V8 GM MAF on a 3.0L TT V6 and the MAF doesn't glitch?


Well, shit. So neither option lets me keep the scanmaster. Guess I'll continue to put this off, find a better 'wot box', & try to increase the evoscan sampling rate. Bummer.

Adam, I highly recommend you take a look into BlackStealth's LCD Boost Controller. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or not. I loved the Scanmaster 3 and used it with an EMU. The only reason I got rid of it was because the box BlackStealth created was everything the Scanmaster was and then some. The nice part about it is coupled with a MAC boost solenoid you can use it to pull duty cycle when you hit a desired knock count. It definitely works well and you will feel your car surge when it happens. It will also flash at you if you knock past a user set number, overboost, or run lean past a programmed AFR the unit references off of a built-in table(I don't know exactly how Antero got this to work but it will tell you if your tune it too lean. I had it happen to me at the track accidentally hitting 26 psi on 720s, E85, and 13-14 AFR WOT. :( ). I completely understand how simple of a tuning approach you had. I basically did the same thing relying on knock, wideband, oil pressure gauge, reading plugs, etc since my datalogging wouldn't work above 3k rpms. I still got to 32 psi and well over 600AWHP on a bone stock motor considering you can't fill one hand with the number of people with running engines accomplishing the same thing. I'll unfortunately be running slightly smaller turbos due to suspicion of too larger of a compressor wheel breaking the 4mm TD04 shaft but even with around billet 19Ts I will for sure break 600AWHP one way or another and get data this time. Whatever I was doing worked and I definitely plan to see where my timing is at with the ARC-2 and 1000cc injectors on ethanol because I will be transferring that over to the flashed ecu if my numbers are widely different than stock.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Very few people have shown results with a flash ECU therefore its logical to conclude it doesn't work as well. No one even considered flash ECU till I took my 98 to the track last year...

Oh I wanted something like this when I found out how evo guys tune their cars...thank you man! :D


I'm currently doing WOT tuning with chrome v2, 1000cc, EVO MAF and 272 cammed motor. Car starts/runs like STOCK. Hot/cold starts, doesn't matter! Solid 800RPM idle, absolutely NO issues whatsoever...well except that I haven't turned up the boost yet...but give me a few days. I'll have results. :)

Oh and PLENTY of EVO's have made over 600whp with the stock ECU and openecu software..no limitation there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6bZoLKMgPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDRo76iPADk

[J. Fast]

Why are you holding onto the scanmaster, Adam? I've never ran one or used one, what features does it posess that appear to heavily weigh your decision? Is it the knock features?

[Greg E]

Adam, remind me how does the scan master read wb02?

[UTRacerX9]

Didn't read the entire thread, but if I were still in the game with these cars, I'd have gone with Chrome. I've never been much impressed with the AEM setup. It promised a lot, but from people who have used it, both V1 and V2, it's a recurring theme to hear that it's a pain in the ass and that most people don't even use the full functionality. It's likely you'd be paying so much for features you'll never be using.

Having a flashable ECU was the holy grail for a long time... I think the ability to tune on the go is a bit overrated, I had it with my MAFT and once I got the basic tune down, never needed that functionality again.

[Greg E]

Adam, remind me how does the scan master read wb02?

Nevermind! Jeff L helped me out. For some reason I thought you had them fed into the ECU somehow.

Stealth 316 - Scanmaster 3 Installation (http://www.stealth316.com/2-scanmaster3-install.htm)


If your MAP and WB are fed into the aux spots on the scan master, switching to a flash ECU won't change anything. You can still use it. :)

[Boostaddict]

The nice thing about either setup is that its pretty easy to switch to the other. My recommendation would be to try the flash ecu first since it’s the easiest transition and slightly lower entry cost. If you find it lacking, move to the AEM. Not a big deal to switch, just a bit of $ while you re-sell the other unit. The AEM has a horrible re-sale so find one used if you can and save a bit of $ (there are usually several for sale at any time).

The only other input I have on the matter… if you drive your car rarely and aren’t mucking with the software on a regular basis the AEM software might test your patience. Let the car sit a year or more and try starting it up… nope, need to re-flash your map just “because”. Then spend hours remembering where that one table you need is located to fiddle with settings. With flash ecu you won’t have that problem since it just seems to work (like a factory ecu). Once the car is tuned it works well.

[fastfalcon94]

I use aem v2 and love it. You can rescale the tables in aem and the stock fuel map and timing map is available. So you can make it mimic the stock tables pretty easily. And in aem you can use o2 feedback even in open loop which makes it easy to tune fuel. Set the o2 feedback table to your desired a/f ratio, set your min/max adjustments a little higher than they should, and you can use the feedback value to fine tune your fuel tables. So if your a/f ratio is set to 11.2 and you see the feedback system is having to add 7% fuel there to meet your a/f ratio, then you know you need to richen that area of the main fuel table up a bit. Once you get the main fuel table setup you can lower the feedback min/max values and be worry free.

I think flash and AEM both serve their purposes and I'm glad that both are available now. There was a time when I thought flash would never happen so I went with AEM as that was the only one available. I'm suprised ECMlink hasn't been involved. I remember in an old thread in the other forum they said they would help out if we ever had a flashable chip. I mean they made dsmlink and you can do realtime changes in v3, and they have a tuner/logger in an all in one program. I personally like the dsmlink logger better than aem.

And the wotbox isn't that great for anything other than NLTS. I wasn't impressed with it's launch control ability. It only cuts ignition which means fuel will build up. The one in aem works great. You can cut fuel and timing easily. This is how I have mine setup. Launch control is known as 2step in aem, NLTS is known as 3step. You can do both with the 2step setup but only if you want the launch and NLTS RPM to be the same.

http://www.3sgto.org/tuning-engine-electronics-ecu-discussions/8560-aem-ems-banter-thread-10.html#post236981


Edit: and the other thing I like about aem is the serial gauge you can buy. Any value (boost, knock, duty cycle, battery, etc...) in aem you can push to this gauge and setup warnings. You can custimize how the led bezel looks, when it turns red etc.. It was a royal pain to setup though. The documentation that ships with the guage is for aem v1 and aem 2 is a little different. I finally figured it out though.

[AdamVR4]

Adam, remind me how does the scan master read wb02?

I used to have it plug into the back of the scanmaster (3.5 mm jack), then I put it on the EGR-T ECU port. Now, the WBO2 currently bypasses the scanmaster completely because I serial connectorized the WBO2's blue (IIRC) wire and plug directly into the laptop.

The 5-bar MAP sensor goes to the EGR-T port now. I'm not sure how I'd get it into the scanmaster.

The only inputs on the scanmaster are the RJ11 (RS232) port and the 3.5mm jack analog input.

The Blackstealth LCDEBC would be nice. I'd love to get the Blitz DSBC-R off my steering column cover.




The only other input I have on the matter… if you drive your car rarely and aren’t mucking with the software on a regular basis the AEM software might test your patience. Let the car sit a year or more and try starting it up… nope, need to re-flash your map just “because”. Then spend hours remembering where that one table you need is located to fiddle with settings. With flash ecu you won’t have that problem since it just seems to work (like a factory ecu). Once the car is tuned it works well.

That's what I've always liked about the stock ECU. I can go years at a time (seemingly) without touching the tune because I'm not a perfectionist with it. I don't care if I leave a little power on the table as long as it doesn't pop.

[AdamVR4]

That said, the scanmaster manual claims:


Analog inputs: On the rear of the unit is a 3.5mm jack for
connecting two 0-5 volt external signals. These signals can be
displayed on the Scanmaster as well as logged to a PDA/PC. If a
wideband Air/Fuel signal is connected, the Scanmaster 3 can be
configured to display Air/Fuel ratio as the default display. The
analog data can be displayed as boost (2 bar, 2.5 bar, 3 bar) and
Air/Fuel ratio.

So that makes me think I could potentially use one of these guys...
http://www.fullcompass.com/common/products/lg/133576.jpg

...to get both the WBO2 and MAP sensor 0-5v outputs into the scanmaster. Are we sure that the Chrome ECU will be able to work with these? The scanmaster only does 20 samples/sec.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

the chrome ecu can accept those inputs directly. Just wire them into both the scanmaster and the ecu pins 92 and 93. I have split the signal like that many times and seen no issues.

[AdamVR4]

Nevermind. I don't think I'd need the "Y"

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1411/30696236.jpg

[AdamVR4]

the chrome ecu can accept those inputs directly. Just wire them into both the scanmaster and the ecu pins 92 and 93. I have split the signal like that many times and seen no issues.

I assume these are very low current signals (less than 6 mA on the 5 bar sensor), so yeah, there shouldn't be a problem with voltage drop. That's a really good idea.

[j2k4]

Adam, you have a PM. :)

[Greg E]

The MUT protocol on the stock ECU is good for 50-60 samples per second. For whatever reason, EVOScan doesn't grab that many packets... Haven't figured out exactly why that is yet.

Maybe Jeff knows...

[AdamVR4]

Greg,

Do you see any issue splitting the 0-5V signals from my 5bar and WBO2 senors to go to the scanmaster and Chrome ECU simultaneously?

I'm considering the LCDBC, but how would its set-up with the Chrome differ from the scanmaster?

[Greg E]

The LCDBC reads everything from the ECU so you'd wire in the MAP and WB into pins 92 and 93 of the flash ECU, scale the sensors in the code, flash, then log. It'd save you from needing to split the wires.

I don't have first hand experience splitting the signal wire nor am I enough of an EE expert to tell you if that's a good idea or not.

[AdamVR4]

The LCDBC reads everything from the ECU so you'd wire in the MAP and WB into pins 92 and 93 of the flash ECU...

Procuring a LCDBC this week... Worst case, I don't use it and resell.

From PM with BlackStealth:

On my Chrome ECU setup, I have the WBO2 signal feeding into the LCDBC instead of directly into the Chrome ECU. The reason for this is faster Evoscan datalogging. Evoscan can request WBO2 information from the LCDBC and get a reply instantly instead of waiting for the ECU to reply back with the data.

:dontknow2:

[Greg E]

Well there you go. :lol:

[AdamVR4]

Well there you go. :lol:

If I'm understanding this correctly, there's not a lot of difference in functionality between:

scanmaster + DSBC-R + Chrome ...vs... LCDBC + Chrome

In fact, it appears the difference at this point is that you and BlackStealth have cooperated to allow your devices to share data... And you haven't had the chance to do the same with TurboBob..?

[Greg E]

You got it.

[familyMAN]

LCDBC is interesting since it can pull boost if it hits a knock threshold, correct? If so, nice safety feature when you race.

[HLxDrummer]

I didn't read the whole thread either but I've had the eManage blue and ultimate and the flash ecu. I considered going AEM because I enjoy tinkering and learning things but the flash ecu is too good to pass up. No speed density but not a big deal, no on the fly adjustments is a little annoying but not a big deal. Unless I had some crazy setup, or had time/money to take the EFI courses, I wouldn't go AEM. The flash ecu is a stock computer that let's you adjust 95% of the things people want to adjust.

Combined with the LCD BC it is amazing. Used to have the ultimate wired in and under the seat with the scan master on the steering column, boost gauge on the pillar, and an MBC under the hood. Now I have the boost gauge (which I could get rid of) and the LCD BC in the cluster. Clean as hell and the LCD BC has its own list of features as already mentioned.

Long story short I love my flash ecu/LCD BC. Greg has also been super helpful with any questions I have had. I highly doubt I will have another tuning setup..

[J. Fast]

I didn't read the whole thread either but I've had the eManage blue and ultimate and the flash ecu. I considered going AEM because I enjoy tinkering and learning things but the flash ecu is too good to pass up. No speed density but not a big deal, no on the fly adjustments is a little annoying but not a big deal. Unless I had some crazy setup, or had time/money to take the EFI courses, I wouldn't go AEM. The flash ecu is a stock computer that let's you adjust 95% of the things people want to adjust.

Combined with the LCD BC it is amazing. Used to have the ultimate wired in and under the seat with the scan master on the steering column, boost gauge on the pillar, and an MBC under the hood. Now I have the boost gauge (which I could get rid of) and the LCD BC in the cluster. Clean as hell and the LCD BC has its own list of features as already mentioned.

Long story short I love my flash ecu/LCD BC. Greg has also been super helpful with any questions I have had. I highly doubt I will have another tuning setup..

Great post! I can relate to the clean look. I don't have any gauges.

[ChargerX3]

Fun thread. Kind of glad i didnt get involved with AEM, just for the pure simplicity of Chrome and its OEM based technology.

[Greg E]

I'm a bit confused about these safety features that AEM has that Chrome doesn't.

[AdamVR4]

Greg,

Would you mind detailing your hypothetical strategy for using the Chrome with a blow-thru MAF?

A few pages back you said,

All that data on sensor calibration goes out the window with blow thru... You're back to guessing and checking.


In no-boost scenarios, the sensor calibration should be perfect, right? It's when boost comes on that you'd be guessing and checking, right? Has anyone successfully done it?

[Greg E]

The sensors are calibrated to read air in a certain diameter housing with straight air passing thru them. This is the job of the honey combs. If you were to somehow see the airflow thru these sensors vs just a tube without the screens (say using fog or something) you'd be able to observe the air tends to want to spin inside the tubes. The honey combs straighten out this spiral behavior for an inch or two inside the housing so the sensor can get an accurate reading.

Pressurized airflow vs vacuum airflow tends to be even more chaotic compounding the matter. This is mainly due to air speed.

Depending on the sensor you're using, it's range gets smaller and smaller as its installed into a smaller diameter tube. This is because the air must travel faster thru a smaller chamber in order to achieve the same flow as a larger diameter tube. Faster air speed shows up as a high airflow reading on the sensor.

The average size of an UICP is 3" meaning you gotta push a lot of air thru it faster to get a lot of power. This limits the range of the sensor. Add in the pressure and temperature variables and you'll see it gets even more tricky to get an accurate air count.

It can be made to work but chances are you'll max the sensor before making any real power. Installing a sensor with a greater range loses resolution down low where idle/drivability can suffer.

Using a 3.5" sensor in a 3" IC pipe creates an offset...

[Greg E]

I may or may not release a "blow thru" MAF to the community. The problem with it is, each sensor will needs its own unique calibration depending on what turbos the user has installed. Without the ability to live tune, this becomes a bit of a headache...

Draw thru MAF is no problem. :)

[AdamVR4]

My car went from consistent ~129-131 mph traps to consistent ~132-135 traps when I ditched my LS6 MAF (3.75"?) and stock intake tubes in exchange for the LT1 and screen door mesh over the turbos (not ideal for power based on Matt Monett's dyno results several years back). I realize the stock intake tubes are awful and only good for silencing turbos, but now I've got custom short intake tubes that I think are perfect. It's blow thru or speed density from here on out... Final pricing on the AEM EMS is $1465 (he said he's selling it for $100 over cost) + the ~$30 IAT. I told him I'm still conflicted... You have some time to give me confidence in the blow thru chrome... I may put this decision off 'til early '14.

[DuTTch]

My car went from consistent ~129-131 mph traps to consistent ~132-135 traps when I ditched my LS6 MAF (3.75"?) and stock intake tubes in exchange for the LT1 and screen door mesh over the turbos (not ideal for power based on Matt Monett's dyno results several years back). I realize the stock intake tubes are awful and only good for silencing turbos, but now I've got custom short intake tubes that I think are perfect. It's blow thru or speed density from here on out... Final pricing on the AEM EMS is $1465 (he said he's selling it for $100 over cost) + the ~$30 IAT. I told him I'm still conflicted... You have some time to give me confidence in the blow thru chrome... I may put this decision off 'til early '14.

Chrome < 500awhp , AEM EMS >500 where do you wanna be Adam?

[Greg E]

Chrome < 500awhp , AEM EMS >500 where do you wanna be Adam?

Ray dynoed a dr750 car with chrome and an EVO MAF at 600whp not too long ago.

I'm not sure why people think you can't make any real power using chrome.

[Greg E]

You have some time to give me confidence in the blow thru chrome...

Maybe you should talk to the half a dozen or so people running a blow thru MAFT with Chrome right now....

I never said it wouldn't work. Just that I can't promise "out of the box" tunes with it. You'll have to actually spend some time tuning it on your own.

[mehrshadvr4]

I wonder If it can make reliable power. The more power he makes the more sensitive it'll get.

[Greg E]

I wonder If it can make reliable power. The more power he makes the more sensitive it'll get.

This applies to every car.

[AdamVR4]

Maybe you should talk to the half a dozen or so people running a blow thru MAFT with Chrome right now....

I never said it wouldn't work. Just that I can't promise "out of the box" tunes with it. You'll have to actually spend some time tuning it on your own.

You made it sound like a problem in your last post. Can you point me to any of these blow thru chromers?

[HellBringer]

ProEFI..???

[kywhitelightning]

You made it sound like a problem in your last post. Can you point me to any of these blow thru chromers?

If knock is so important to see, chrome will turn on the cel at your desired level of knock counts so you will have a visual of knock happening live right on the dashboard. Set it to your desired limit on knock counts and play until you see it flash the light. Review the log in the pits.

I am currently running chrome in blow through with the maft and I know my car makes >500AWHP.

Jeff

[Toni]

I blow through my chrome!

[hwoarang2009]

Amazing thread guys.
Learned alot

[hellssephiroth]

I also blow through. Although im having issues. I dont think they are related though as it ran amazing until recently.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[Ange]

Ray dynoed a dr750 car with chrome and an EVO MAF at 600whp not too long ago.

I'm not sure why people think you can't make any real power using chrome.

and only limit or "bottleneck" at higher hp with it seems to be the maf.

I Think that can be solved eventually.

[J. Fast]

Plug and play in AEM for racecars ;)

Racepak Data Systems - Professional Motorsports Data Acquisition Systems (http://www.racepak.com/Components/Dash_Compare.php)

or theres always a Stack or AIM... those are plug and play in the AEM also.

[Greg E]

Those are pretty sweet!

[sergechronos]

Plug and play in AEM for racecars ;)

Racepak Data Systems - Professional Motorsports Data Acquisition Systems (http://www.racepak.com/Components/Dash_Compare.php)

or theres always a Stack or AIM... those are plug and play in the AEM also.

Ahahah Stop giving him ideas, otherwise we're never going to get another Chrome release :P

[J. Fast]

Those are pretty sweet!
$600 for the unit and patch into the AEM output. Also has shift lights. Racepak will display telemetry with a modular plug in upgrade.

IMO Chrome for street and standalones for track/racecars.

Its up to Adam to decide which he has.

[familyMAN]

Sold my AEM series1 and will be purchasing Series2:D Will likely order a GM flex fuel sensor to plumb in. Also looking at a 100psi sensor (for fuel pressure) and 150psi (for oil pressure) so I can log both and use to setup up the engine protection features in AEM. AEM datastream gauge is on the bench ready for install as well.

[wisniaPl]

Im coming from evo world, ecuflash(chrome ecu in this case) is superior especialy on obdII cars when it comes to passing emissions....you will never pass with aem.....
Ecu flash has all the functions that aem has especially with all tephra mod features....If maf is a problem you can go Sd tune also
Plenty of evos using ecu flash with over 600,700,800whp couple evo x's that broke 900whp on stock ecu and maf
I wonder if we can use evo x maf....but then you can save $$ and do sd tune
I would only go AEM if i had fully gutted/caged track car

[J. Fast]

The only draw to Chrome is its user friendly for inexperienced tuner. IMO with the updated AEM Data Pack there is no comparison anymore. The logger sampling rate and memory is 10x faster than ECU flash . Plus you can overlap and integrate video with the logger either real time or on replay. It has a g-sensor and tps locator for track and road and too much to list.

The price for AEM is also the same as Chrome so using cost as a selling point is moot.

Where AEM is today with their tech...(my post from the other thread)


I did forget to mention a couple of other new software upgrades to AEM V1,2, and Infinity series boxes. A new software load upgrade called AEMdata. :p

http://www.aemelectronics.com/images/Channel_Report.jpg

http://www.aemelectronics.com/images/Main_Screen.jpg

http://www.aemelectronics.com/images/Lap_Report.jpg

http://www.aemelectronics.com/images/XY_Plot.jpg

This data can also be streamed real time.

Here is a vid of the logger. Notice you can replay the real time feedback. That's how it looks when steaming live. You can also plug a Go-Pro into the AEM Logger and insert video and steam live or save it for later viewing and editing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RxXShC88EI&feature=youtube_gdata_player


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RxXShC88EI&sns=em

AEM is no longer limited to engine parameters. It has full telemetry capability with yaw/g-force, tps tire monitoring, suspension strain gauges for shock and aero data, and overlapping driving metrics.

[familyMAN]

$600 for the unit and patch into the AEM output. Also has shift lights. Racepak will display telemetry with a modular plug in upgrade.

IMO Chrome for street and standalones for track/racecars.

Its up to Adam to decide which he has.

I see no reason that AEM can't be for a street car also. Obviously, that's why I am getting series2 (unless someone gives me a fecu, big maf and maft for free and makes me use it)....same usage as Adam, Street/Strip. From all of the reviews, vids I have been researching, the series2 should be very easy to get your initial setup tune and even has great descriptions and instructions of functions built into the software. (series1 was pretty vague.)

FlexFuel=win for street car. SD=I like it, and the flexibility for intake routing. Track features=win. Engine protection=win (street or track). Traction control=win (street or track)

[AdamVR4]

Is the aem infinity worth the $500 extra over series 2?

[familyMAN]

Isn't it more like $1-1500?

The hardware is supposedly better/faster. No plug and play for 3S. Seems more racing team oriented to me. More inputs and outputs if you want a sensor on every imaginable thing. Not as many users so support could be tough.

No plug and play is a no go for me. Too much to work out for the base cal with how our cam/crank sensors etc work. I'm definitely no EE though! Sticking with AEM Series2 since it will have a base cal and I can tinker from there. (Unfortunately, I don't think my series1 cal will work because they moved some "things" around according to series2 instructions.) Now that series2 has flex fuel and the more I read on engine protection, the more I like it, I think it will do everything I want it to do.......actually ordering today:D.

[fastfalcon94]

If anyone is race oriented you could check out my friends operation at VEMS US | Versatile Engine Management Systems (http://www.vems.us) He has his own standalone ecu that he sells. He's been working on making plug and play kits for some of the bmw/vw crowd, but it could really be used on any car as is with a little bit of work. My friend Joey has been using it for years on his rally subaru. He brought it up to Napierville one time too when I was up there and he ran back to back mid 10's.

And for aem v2, I'm sure it won't be too difficult to upgrade from v1. Worst case you can play the copy/paste game between your timing/fuel tables. I have a guide out there with what I did to get mine setup.

[wisniaPl]

If anyone is race oriented you could check out my friends operation at VEMS US | Versatile Engine Management Systems (http://www.vems.us) He has his own standalone ecu that he sells. He's been working on making plug and play kits for some of the bmw/vw crowd, but it could really be used on any car as is with a little bit of work. My friend Joey has been using it for years on his rally subaru. He brought it up to Napierville one time too when I was up there and he ran back to back mid 10's.

And for aem v2, I'm sure it won't be too difficult to upgrade from v1. Worst case you can play the copy/paste game between your timing/fuel tables. I have a guide out there with what I did to get mine setup.

vems is another good option very popular in Audi crowd

[familyMAN]

Series2 ordered!:love-struck: Come on Adam.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoqDYcCDOTg

Or at least get chrome and throw all of those piggybacks in the trash:D

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiUt7V-s2evXion0TdLOYVcOpQ-ePWziF5XLskFcdhnfQI5l-S






^what!.....that's awesome google skills! piggybacking trash!

[vr4tune]

I love my series 2