Tuning my DR750s on Chrome

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

First some basics about my setup:

DR750s
ETS Fmic
FIC 1050 low impedance injectors
Hallman Pro MBC
Walbro 400 e85
HKS DLI
MSD Wires (stock boot style)
NGK 4091 Gapped to .025
stock new fpr
Ninja performance fuel pump hotwire
3sx fuel rail loop
stock fuel lines + filter
Stock Manifolds, front is welded and ported
DN Precat eliminators
Tanable Knockoff downpipe with cat delete
Tanabe Touring Medallion Catback
Evo Maf + Huge K&N filter
Chrome 2

I think that is about it in terms of power or supporting mods.

The first thing I did when installing the 1050s was get the fuel trims decent working with the injector sizing and injector battery latency tables. I also had to work quite a bit on the startup tables to get it to start in all conditions. I think began getting the tune reasonably close for WOT. I tend to use a hybrid approach of getting the global fueling close using the injector sizing, then getting ranges close using the VE/MAF table, then I fine tune the fuel map.

First with pump gas and ~15 psi peak:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/4-13-2012-virtual_dynovH8E_dAzt.jpg

Afr was fat, but the point was really just to get a safe decent tune for 93, max power wasn't the objective. Having done that I ran the gas tank down to the fuel light and added 5 gallons of e85. I did that so I wouldn't have to worry about tweaking the tune at the gas station. I took my 93 tuned injector size and times it by .7 to get started. The car fired, ran really rich for 30 seconds or so while the gas got pumped out of the fuel lines and injectors, then it ran pretty well. Well enough that I ran over to the fuel station and just filled it up.

Car actually ran decent enough. I did some daily normal driving to adjust the global injector size slightly, but it really wasn't far off to start with. Once the trims were decent enough I started doing some WOT pulls in 2nd. In my particular experience my car always runs about .5 afr richer in 3rd, so 2nd is a good place to start.

Here is the first WOT 3rd gear pull, again at 15 psi:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/e85_15psi5bXP_8tAe.jpg

At this point the afr was getting fairly dialed in. The issue I had is the stock BCS solenoid is not great for trying to run much more than 15 PSI, even with the upgraded wastegates it just couldn't bleed off enough air. Greg has a few solutions for this, but with the days until the gathering getting closer I decided to keep things simple and run the hallman mbc. Obviously compared to the ecu based boost control it is very primitive and I intend to switch back at some point, but it works well for now.

I turned boost up to about 24-25 PSI in 2nd and ran into some ignition issues. There was some breakup around 4000. I was running the ngk 4091s gapped to .030. I wanted to try the champion surface discharge plugs, so I swapped them in. Immediately I had misfiring at practically any boost (like 2-3psi), so I swapped back to a new set of ngk 4091s gapped at .025 and it cleared up.

I ran some 3rd gear pulls today and hit the same breakup around 4000 RPM. I turned the boost down about 1 turn on the controller and after some afr tuning I had this:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/6-8-2013-490wNZW_Ke3p.jpg

That is about all the boost I can run without breakup. Afrs are pretty decent and safe. Ignore the boost on that graph, it reads a little low. It was in the mid 80s today, so a little warmer than the previous tunes.

At this point I need to resolve my ignition issue and run some more boost. I have not touched the timing map, it is on stock timing. I'm sure there is power to be had there, but I want to let the boost do the talking for now, especially since on e85 by the time I see a lot of knock it'll be too late. The current tune hits 1-2 counts on occasion, interestingly about where the breakup was, so they may be ignition related.

The coils and ptu are not very old, I have msd plug wires, so I am not sure what could be the issue. Anyone out there with ideas? I will replace anything necessary, but I do not want to replace anything that is good.

I would like to run 4-5 more pounds of boost and get around 550.

[CoopKill]

In for info!

[Ninja Performance]

That is a serious power curve. I KNOW that car is a blast to drive!

-Chris

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Thanks Chris! Pretty much instant boost anywhere above 3K.

This can kinda illustrate the repeatability of the virtual dyno:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/480_vs_490vlmf_DEP7.jpg

After the 1st run I raised boost .25 turns. They were not even on the same stretch, but you can see how close the curve matches up.

[J. Fast]

10 degrees at peak tq and 18 at redline? Since those spool so early you can likely light it off even earlier... maybe even 8 degrees? Where's your arc signature on the spark plug strap?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

10 degrees at peak tq and 18 at redline? Since those spool so early you can likely light it off even earlier... maybe even 8 degrees? Where's your arc signature on the spark plug strap?

100% stock 99 vr4 timing map:

2687.5 21
2718.75 19
2750 17
2781.25 16
2812.5 15
2843.75 14
2875 13
2906.25 12
2968.75 12
3000 12
3031.25 12
3062.5 12
3093.75 12
3156.25 12
3187.5 12
3250 13
3312.5 13
3406.25 13
3406.25 13
3468.75 13
3531.25 13
3562.5 13
3625 12
3718.75 12
3750 12
3812.5 11
3875 11
3906.25 11
3968.75 10
4000 10
4093.75 9
4125 9
4187.5 10
4250 10
4312.5 10
4343.75 10
4437.5 11
4500 11
4562.5 12
4625 12
4687.5 14
4750 15
4812.5 16
4843.75 16
4906.25 17
4968.75 17
5000 18
5062.5 18
5187.5 18
5187.5 18
5312.5 18
5312.5 17
5343.75 17
5406.25 17
5468.75 18
5531.25 18
5562.5 18
5625 19
5687.5 19
5750 19
5781.25 20
5843.75 20
5875 20
5906.25 20
5968.75 21
6000 21
6062.5 21
6093.75 21
6125 21
6187.5 21
6218.75 21
6281.25 22
6343.75 22
6375 22
6437.5 22
6468.75 22
6500 22
6562.5 22
6593.75 22
6625 22
6687.5 22
6718.75 22
6750 22
6781.25 22
6843.75 22
6843.75 22
6906.25 22
6937.5 22
7000 22
7000 22
7062.5 22
7062.5 22


I have not pulled the plugs yet, maybe tomorrow.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Anyone with much e85 experience have input? Is 11.5 AFR a lot harder to light off than 12.0? I was trying to produce a safe tune, but if leaning it out will give me some ignition headroom I will.

[wingnut]

Subscribed :D

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

After looking at the video the boost logging I have setup isn't off nearly as far as I thought, maybe 1 psi, so I'm not running quite as much boost as I thought, only about 20-21psi peak and maybe 18 at redline.

Good though, because there is a lot of room to go up.

[TurboSinceBirth]

When I ran 10s AFR it would break up badly. I honestly don't recall on low 11s AFR since it has been awhile probably last Sept when I first started tuning with ethanol. I found my car liked 12.0 AFR WOT really well. You could feel the torque increase and engine run much smoother. I hit 14s WOT at the track due to a spike/issue with the MAC solenoid not ramping up the boost to my target correctly which sent me 20+ counts of knock which luckily didn't do any damage. I put probably 600 miles of WOT 2nd through 5th pulls since then at high 11s low 12s without any issues. The only time I would ever get knock is if I had a vacuum leak causing a momentary lean dip when building a few lbs of boost on light throttle. I would give it a shot leaning it out since it may help your stumbling issues.

I'm running the #8 non projected tip plugs instead of the 7s you have so there shouldn't be any issues there. I had mine set for 0.028" gap before the DLI at 24 psi on new OEM coils, PTU, and MSD wires. I left the gap the same after installing the DLI to turn it up further. Honestly, I don't know how to check if yours is still working correctly. I've never had one fail but it could be an issue. I would at least check the primary and secondary coil resistances to see if they're within spec. These cars are finicky and really do need a fairly new/excellent ignition system. I've also had severe break up/missing when I wasn't getting enough fuel due to a loose fuel pump hose on the hangar. I couldn't get into any kind of load though and the car would idle super lean 16-17 AFR so I don't think you're having a fuel related issue.

I will be curious to see if you do in fact have an ignition issue that gets fixed what the champion plugs will do again since that could have been related to your ignition with the plugs amplifying the previous issue. Whenever I get my car back together I want to give them a shot.

[Ninja Performance]

Ethanol likes closer to 12.0 than 11.5

-Chris

[Trevor]

Anyone with much e85 experience have input? Is 11.5 AFR a lot harder to light off than 12.0? I was trying to produce a safe tune, but if leaning it out will give me some ignition headroom I will.
It makes a huge difference in ignitability at high boost/power. You'll see misfires / pre-ignition go down considerably. You're not going to get true knock in the low/mid 12's on E85 at 8.0-9.0:1 compression unless you're trying to run 40+ psi.

[J. Fast]

100% stock 99 vr4 timing map:

2687.5 21
2718.75 19
2750 17
2781.25 16
2812.5 15
2843.75 14
2875 13
2906.25 12
2968.75 12
3000 12
3031.25 12
3062.5 12
3093.75 12
3156.25 12
3187.5 12
3250 13
3312.5 13
3406.25 13
3406.25 13
3468.75 13
3531.25 13
3562.5 13
3625 12
3718.75 12
3750 12
3812.5 11
3875 11
3906.25 11
3968.75 10
4000 10
4093.75 9
4125 9
4187.5 10
4250 10
4312.5 10
4343.75 10
4437.5 11
4500 11
4562.5 12
4625 12
4687.5 14
4750 15
4812.5 16
4843.75 16
4906.25 17
4968.75 17
5000 18
5062.5 18
5187.5 18
5187.5 18
5312.5 18
5312.5 17
5343.75 17
5406.25 17
5468.75 18
5531.25 18
5562.5 18
5625 19
5687.5 19
5750 19
5781.25 20
5843.75 20
5875 20
5906.25 20
5968.75 21
6000 21
6062.5 21
6093.75 21
6125 21
6187.5 21
6218.75 21
6281.25 22
6343.75 22
6375 22
6437.5 22
6468.75 22
6500 22
6562.5 22
6593.75 22
6625 22
6687.5 22
6718.75 22
6750 22
6781.25 22
6843.75 22
6843.75 22
6906.25 22
6937.5 22
7000 22
7000 22
7062.5 22
7062.5 22


I have not pulled the plugs yet, maybe tomorrow.

You'll know if you're in the ballpark when you see the strap. Log numbers look like there's maybe another three degrees of advance left in there. Like Trevor and Chris also mentioned you have lots of room with a pump gas afr. I'm a full afr point lower than you. I run 12.5 at peak tq all the way thru and I tip in from 13.5.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

It makes a huge difference in ignitability at high boost/power. You'll see misfires / pre-ignition go down considerably. You're not going to get true knock in the low/mid 12's on E85 at 8.0-9.0:1 compression unless you're trying to run 40+ psi.

Thanks Trevor! I'll lean it out and report back.

[NOMIEZVR4]

5 star thread

[futurevr4man]

lookin good chris! i wish i had some flat road around here that i could do VD runs with. i cant find a single one though (and i have kept my eyes open for one)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Haha we'll ran into some issues. I just joined the SBC today.

Before I even got out of town, just putting around the cel was lighting under some light loads. I figured maybe the tune was slightly lean in that area, I subtracted .4 afr pretty much over the map and smoothed the transitions to closed loop, so maybe it needed a little more fuel there. Well I don't think that was the case, we did one long pull and I knew it was down on power, started knocking bad.

Probably shouldn't have, but I limped it home and it sounds like a bag of hammers. Oil pressure is way down. We must have hurt it yesterday. This was a 98K motor that I replaced the rod bearings with clevites in. The clearances were pretty good, but I guess something was wrong, like the rod was out of round or something.

I'll drain the oil later and cut open the filter, but I'm positive at least one rod is spun. Looks like it won't make the NG.

[JasonY]

what the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

:(

Jason

[OhioSpyderman]

Damnit Chris, and I just signed up yesterday and was looking forward to seeing your new beast :(

No chance you might get here rebuilt in a month?

Ugh....

Bob.

[Greg E]

This was a 98K motor that I replaced the rod bearings with clevites in. The clearances were pretty good, but I guess something was wrong, like the rod was out of round or something.

Noisy engine shows false knock at low loads. I never posted a thread about how to "tune" the knock sensor because my fear is it opens the door to people messing their engines up.

At any rate, you were probably just making too much power for that tired old engine. It seems right around when you get to the sweet spot with these turbos, the stock motor gives out...

[anyonebutme]

hopefully turbos are fine....

engine rebuild in a week.......git r done!

[NOMIEZVR4]

Oh man! Noooooo...another one goes down..

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I think Greg really hit the nail on the head. With the boost I was running the other day I'm sure it was well into the 500s and these turbos make torque so down low I am sure it puts a ton of load on the stock internals.

I don't see any other option than have Ray build up a shortblock for me. I'm going to have to talk to him. I have in mind about $3000 budget for the shortblock, but I'm pretty sure I do not want to stick with a stock rod, so I am not sure what he can do. I don't know if he ever builds a stage 2.5 type setup, I just want something bulletproof that I will not have to do again if I want to really turn the power up. I'll probably have him go through the heads too.

With the help of Jen, I went mining today and came back rich!

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_0601M9J2_IfmV.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_06025p99_BRqA.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_06033VJP_xm63.JPG

At first I thought that the oil filter caught everything, but after the oil in the pan settled there are tiny glittering in it. No huge chunks, but defiantly material in there.

I guess I'll need to send the turbos to Matt for inspection? Hopefully the turbine shaft is okay.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I have a new setrab oil cooler and ips lines, hopefully they can be saved? Machine shop boil it out or toss the setup? It was like $300

[NOMIEZVR4]

Not worth the risk imo

[mb3000]

I would not chance a Pampena built block with contaminants from that oil cooler.

[Toni]

I guess I'll need to send the turbos to Matt for inspection? Hopefully the turbine shaft is okay.

Yup, you are gonna want to clean them out. Chances are the thrust bearing is clogged and the journal bearings are problem worn.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Wow, you guys wouldn't like to see this log. Afr was great on the pull, but there was constant knock after about 6000 and after that it would show twenties knock counts even off the gas.

It is nice to see the tune didn't kill it though. It was still about 11.8-11.9 up top

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

RPM TimingAdv F_FuelTrim_High R_FuelTrim_Mid R_FuelTrim_High O2FeedbackTrim CoolantTemp Battery Speed Load1B KnockSum CoolantTempScaled WideBandAF
3000 24 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.32226563
3000 24 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.92529297
2937.5 23 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.27587891
2968.75 21 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.62646484
3000 19 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.53369141
3031.25 17 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.30175781
3125 12 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.765625
3156.25 12 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.99755859
3187.5 12 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.99755859
3218.75 12 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.09033203
3281.25 13 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.27587891
3312.5 13 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.41503906
3343.75 13 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.46142578
3406.25 13 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.41503906
3500 13 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.5078125
3531.25 13 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.60058594
3593.75 13 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.78613281
3625 12 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.78613281
3687.5 12 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.78613281
3750 11 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.69335938
3812.5 11 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.64697266
3843.75 11 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.60058594
3906.25 11 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.36865234
3968.75 10 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.41503906
3968.75 10 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.41503906
4062.5 10 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.27587891
4125 10 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.32226563
4156.25 11 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.22949219
4218.75 11 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.13671875
4250 11 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.09033203
4312.5 11 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.90478516
4375 11 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.67285156
4468.75 12 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.71923828
4468.75 12 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.71923828
4531.25 12 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.67285156
4593.75 13 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.58007813
4656.25 14 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.62646484
4718.75 15 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.67285156
4781.25 16 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.67285156
4812.5 17 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.53369141
4875 17 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.53369141
4937.5 18 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.44091797
4968.75 19 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.48730469
5031.25 19 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.53369141
5093.75 19 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.67285156
5187.5 19 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.58007813
5218.75 19 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.62646484
5250 18 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.58007813
5312.5 18 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.765625
5375 18 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.71923828
5406.25 18 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.81201172
5437.5 18 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.85839844
5531.25 18 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.85839844
5562.5 18 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.04394531
5625 19 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.04394531
5656.25 19 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.04394531
5718.75 19 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.90478516
5750 20 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.90478516
5812.5 20 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.95117188
5843.75 20 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.95117188
5906.25 20 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.99755859
6000 21 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.95117188
5968.75 21 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.99755859
6031.25 21 0 -6.8359375 0 0 12.09033203
6062.5 21 0 -6.8359375 0 1 12.13671875
6156.25 21 0 -6.8359375 0 1 12.09033203
6156.25 21 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.95117188
6218.75 21 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.99755859
6250 21 0 -6.8359375 0 0 11.95117188
6312.5 22 0 -6.8359375 0 1 11.90478516
6312.5 21 0 -6.8359375 0 5 11.765625
6375 19 0 -6.8359375 0 8 11.85839844
6406.25 17 0 -6.8359375 0 10 11.81201172
6437.5 17 0 -6.8359375 0 11 11.81201172
6468.75 17 0 -6.8359375 0 12 11.765625
6500 17 0 -6.8359375 0 12 11.90478516
6562.5 17 0 -6.8359375 0 12 11.81201172
6593.75 16 0 -6.8359375 0 15 11.90478516
6593.75 16 0 -6.8359375 0 15 11.71923828
6656.25 15 0 -6.8359375 0 16 11.71923828
6656.25 15 0 -6.8359375 0 16 11.765625
6687.5 15 0 -6.8359375 0 16 11.71923828
6718.75 15 0 -6.8359375 0 16 11.67285156

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

just for fun I wanted to see how down on power it was (this was the log from earlier, I was logging when it blew):

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/finalfuM6_NMQE.jpg

green is today

[RealMcCoy]

I'm curious, I read in a different thread you didn't use the main bearings you bought when you swapped the rod bearings. Did you pull the girdle and check them, or make an assumption based on the good condition of the rod bearings?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'm curious, I read in a different thread you didn't use the main bearings you bought when you swapped the rod bearings. Did you pull the girdle and check them, or make an assumption based on the good condition of the rod bearings?

the latter, so yeah the mains could've been bad

[TurboSinceBirth]

Damn that sucks. :( I hope the turbo repair isn't too expensive. I would doubt that the turbine shaft got damaged but I seemed to guess wrong on the turbos every single time because it ends up being much more expensive dealing with vendors. If you had a 6G74 block and crank I'd say do a 3.5-3.8L Pampena motor for $3750 but it's a little expensive sourcing a JDM engine. Your best bet may be to buy some Ninja Performance rods, send your motor to Ray, and have him put it together with his custom Ross pistons and race wrist pins. That's probably what I would do.

Also, I don't know if it's something you want to consider at all for motor safety next time but you could pick up BlackStealth's LCD BC. I love it and it has been a huge lifesaver for me monitoring knock real time in my face with it sitting in the tach gauge. There's plenty of times I would have done a pull and not known I had knock starting at part throttle if I didn't have it there. I know with a flashed ecu you won't have any tune drifting but there's still limited fail safes for knock compared to standalones that can monitor fuel and oil pressures. I would consider the LCD BC next time. $250 is cheap insurance. I also don't think I would trust the oil cooler. It's a risky chance. I've cleaned them out before very thoroughly and not had issues but maybe I got lucky.

[J. Fast]

WOW! Didn't you just line service that engine?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'm not sure what you mean, but I did replace the rod bearings, the oil pickup, and pan as a precaution. The old bearings had virtually no wear.

[donniekak]

Bearing wear on these engines starts with the 2 center mains. After the clearance on the mains gets opened up, you lose pressure to rods 2,3,4,5.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Well I pulled the front 3 plugs. There is a chalky substance on the ground straps that wipes off easily. Not sure if that would be a lean indicator or burning some oil. I kept an eye on oil consumption and didn't notice any. I can see a gray/black ring down in the porcelain base about a mm off the bottom of the porcelin. There is about one thread worth of black on the plug body.

I can not positively identify a timing line on the ground strap, when I pull the three rears I will check again. I think I see some faint color just before the bend.

There is no ground strap erosion, electrode damage, or any specks on the plug at all. Besides the white chalky crap on the ground strap I'd say they look great. I think they may be a bit hot based on the whiteness of the groundstrap, I'll switch to 8 series next time.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Let's entertain that the engine was running lean for some reason. Wouldn't it have broken one of my fragile 2G ringlands before pounding out the rod bearings?

Oh I also pulled the intake off the front turbo and it spins freely with no play. I'm still going to send them to DR for inspection or rebuild if they need it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Bearing wear on these engines starts with the 2 center mains. After the clearance on the mains gets opened up, you lose pressure to rods 2,3,4,5.

Donnie, I appreciate the input, but I've seen enough worn center mains to be aware of that. Usually #6 rod gets worn by the time the centers are worn badly. Like I said all of the rod bearings were perfect when I pulled them. I'll pull the main girdle when I get this thing apart and we can see.

I'm sure you are worried about localized low oil pressure, but it was decent enough on the gauge. About 20 PSI per thousand rpm with 20 PSI at 850-900 RPM on mobile 1 10w40.

I kept an eye on the oil pressure yesterday like a hawk and it didn't go down until today when it started knocking it got down to about 10 PSI at idle.

[Ninja Performance]

Well this sux.

-Chris

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Any input:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_061027q2_dd0d.JPG

Not the worse plugs I've seen. A little lean maybe, but I have read alcohol reads differently. The ground strap doesn't seem consistent to me.

These are the rear 3. Again no plug damage or detonation flakes though. No oil indicating a broken piston or anything like that.

The rear turbo spins freely and tight. Hopefully they will just need a good cleaning and maybe fresh bearings.

[J. Fast]

Center plug is spot on... The outside two are rich. Looks like you have some unbalanced combustion events in the chamber. You want that chalked look half moon to the first thread and you should see a blue transition line on the strap at about 22 degrees off the base.

I don't think ignition events had anything to do with the failure. Is it possible your oil was thinned out from over fueling?

[TurboSinceBirth]

What about a bent rod from the torque? It's doubtful since I would think the ringlands should have broken first. The stock rods can't take too much of a beating from a lot of knock though. I guess you'll know more once you tear into it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Center plug is spot on... The outside two are rich. Looks like you have some unbalanced combustion events in the chamber. You want that chalked look half moon to the first thread and you should see a blue transition line on the strap at about 22 degrees off the base.

I don't think ignition events had anything to do with the failure. Is it possible your oil was thinned out from over fueling?

Thanks for the input. I'm sure the misfires I was running into during high boost was causing some unbalanced combustion as you put it.

As I was tuning yesterday I did pull out some fuel in places, but the WOT was never under about 11.2 anywhere. Idle and cruise were close to stoic.

The oil doesn't "seem" thin, but I'm sure that doesn't mean a whole lot, but it did still have the same oil pressure it has had since I started.

The fronts look more like the center one. I'm not sure what tune to break the new motor in on then. The one yesterday that was around 11.5 or the one today closer to 12.0 that it blew up on, lol. I guess I could take the tune from yesterday and just lean it out a tenth and go from there.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

What about a bent rod from the torque? It's doubtful since I would think the ringlands should have broken first. The stock rods can't take too much of a beating from a lot of knock though. I guess you'll know more once you tear into it.

It never really knocked until today when the sensor was just picking up rod knock. So far I'm going to have to go along with pushing the torque close to the limit and hitting those misfires yesterday probably beat up the big end of the rods. The misfire was at 4000, where it makes 450 torque. Hell, maybe the bearings I put in just were not a good fit, I was really on the fence about putting the stock ones back in.

I'm just trying to avoid this again. If I beat up one of ray's engines I will be f*cked!

[Ninja Performance]

Plugs for AFR are read down on the ceramic nose where it starts, down in the plug. You need a bright pinpoint light to actually see down there. There should be a thin tan/beige ring at the bottom. The wider and darker (towards black) it gets the richer it is. This is not something you can see by just looking at the outside nose of the plug.

The Strap will tell you if the heat range of the plug is right. If it changed color in the middle of the strap, it is the proper heat range.

therefore, this pic of the plugs can not tell us about the afr. Look down into the plug.

-Chris

[Ninja Performance]

Taking off the threaded metal part of the spark plug will allow you to see what I am referring to. Here is a pic. See the thin tan ring? This engine was running spot on. Now, if that ring gets too thin or is no ring of any color that is too lean. Black would be rich. And even a tan ring that is thick is leaning towards rich.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z125/maccas125/20121003_184256-1.jpg

-Chris

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Yes I did look down the plug earlier. There is a ring just about one to 2 mm off the bottom of the porcelin. It is a light to medium gray and is maybe the width of a pencil led. I can cut off the threads if you want to see it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

k, I'll cut the metal part out of the way and post.

[vr4tune]

Taking off the threaded metal part of the spark plug will allow you to see what I am referring to. Here is a pic. See the thin tan ring? This engine was running spot on. Now, if that ring gets too thin or is no ring of any color that is too lean. Black would be rich. And even a tan ring that is thick is leaning towards rich.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z125/maccas125/20121003_184256-1.jpg

-Chris


This was the method I was taught. It is nice and simple to understand.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

ok, I was not really seeing it until I cut the plug. This looks about right correct?

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_06128nCE_fF2t.JPG

[Ninja Performance]

That is about right, damn close from what I can see.

-Chris

[RealMcCoy]

In case anyone missed it, pretty glaring comparison of the difference of just two heat ranges in those cuttaway pics.

Pretty irrelevant to the discussion, but educational to anyone curious of plug construction and heat ranges...

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

you can see the car didn't have much of an oil pressure problem yesterday:

https://vimeo.com/67973917

[J. Fast]

Plugs for AFR are read down on the ceramic nose where it starts, down in the plug. You need a bright pinpoint light to actually see down there. There should be a thin tan/beige ring at the bottom. The wider and darker (towards black) it gets the richer it is. This is not something you can see by just looking at the outside nose of the plug.

The Strap will tell you if the heat range of the plug is right. If it changed color in the middle of the strap, it is the proper heat range.

therefore, this pic of the plugs can not tell us about the afr. Look down into the plug.

-Chris

That is one way. However, you don't have to cut the thread of the spark plug and inspect the insulate with high ethanol content fuels. Ethanol engines have a unique plug signature. They leave white jetting trace on the base ring of the spark plug. You can tell the AFR based on the color of the jetting on the base ring and how high the color signature travels up the threads. Its a white looking calcium ring that originates at the straps and spreads like a crescent moon. This is just an f.y.i for guys that go to the track that are reliant on the clock in the pits to get back out on the track and turn laps that don't have time to cut open a spark plug.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I did see that whiteness on the strap and spreading to the threads. I thought it was weird, but good to know.

[Ninja Performance]

Never seen this white calcium looking signature on my plugs so I never looked into it. Good info!

-Chris

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

if you use this tool:

Dynomite - a collection of 3S dyno charts (http://primaryboost.com/3s/dynocharts/)

I think I suspect the issue. I'm not picking on him, but since he is stock shortblock the comparison makes sense. Pick adamvr4's torque and the pick ray's dr750 torque. Then look at mine. Around 3500 even if you account for my vd software reading high ray and I are both making 400-450 torque, while the 16G setup is around 300.

I think the E85 and instant spool of those turbos is just too much down low and probably bent a rod.

If anyone wants to run a similar setup I would keep boost low until over 4000 or get a built short block.

[Greg E]

if you use this tool:

Dynomite - a collection of 3S dyno charts (http://primaryboost.com/3s/dynocharts/)

I think I suspect the issue. I'm not picking on him, but since he is stock shortblock the comparison makes sense. Pick adamvr4's torque and the pick ray's dr750 torque. Then look at mine. Around 3500 even if you account for my vd software reading high ray and I are both making 400-450 torque, while the 16G setup is around 300.

I think the E85 and instant spool of those turbos is just too much down low and probably bent a rod.

If anyone wants to run a similar setup I would keep boost low until over 4000 or get a built short block.

After seeing 3 engines with similar setups get destroyed under the same conditions, I agree.

[J. Fast]

I would be more inclined to think that you introduced Ethanol into a dirty engine and it started cleaning deposits and circulating them. Knowing now that this isn't the first time this is happened with those turbos I suppose excessive torque could be a possibility. I thought DR750s were okay turbos for a stock engine?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I would be more inclined to think that you introduced Ethanol into a dirty engine and it started cleaning deposits and circulating them. Knowing now that this isn't the first time this is happened with those turbos I suppose excessive torque could be a possibility. I thought DR750s were okay turbos for a stock engine?

Could be, but this engine was really well maintained. I have oil change records back to 1995. I also checked the oil both days before I went out and you could still see through it and it did not smell like fuel.

I really think more people are going to be inclined to say if you are really going to use dr750s for what they are made for you need a built block.

[vroom4]

Isnt there a ray's 3.7 for sale on the other forum?.... :poke:

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Isnt there a ray's 3.7 for sale on the other forum?.... :poke:

Have a link? I haven't been over there for a long time. Probably out of my budget anyway.

[AdamVR4]

if you use this tool:

Dynomite - a collection of 3S dyno charts (http://primaryboost.com/3s/dynocharts/)

I think I suspect the issue. I'm not picking on him, but since he is stock shortblock the comparison makes sense. Pick adamvr4's torque and the pick ray's dr750 torque. Then look at mine. Around 3500 even if you account for my vd software reading high ray and I are both making 400-450 torque, while the 16G setup is around 300.

I think the E85 and instant spool of those turbos is just too much down low and probably bent a rod.

If anyone wants to run a similar setup I would keep boost low until over 4000 or get a built short block.

hahaha, this thread made me wonder how my loose, tired engine had never spun a bearing. Interesting hypothesis and you see the same trend with Trevor's E16G's. Those DR750's are really producing insane amounts of low end torque (TT Eric's DR750 TQ curve is hilarious). Good luck with the rebuild!

[vroom4]

3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/3-8l-stroker-options-conversion-parts-572593/)

slightly out of your budget haha.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

3000GT/Stealth International Message Center (http://www.3si.org/forum/f4/3-8l-stroker-options-conversion-parts-572593/)

slightly out of your budget haha.

A little tempting I must admit, but I think more displacement is not going to be needed. Response is already like a big v8.

I'm *hoping* to get it back together for around what that block costs. That includes ray rebuilding the heads, shortblock, gaskets, cleaning up the turbos at DR.

going to be tight

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

oh and I need an oil pump and timing belt tensioner too, turbo feeds, maybe the returns

[vroom4]

will you just hella-flush the cooler/lines?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

will you just hella-flush the cooler/lines?

I'm going to see what Ray thinks and if he can flush them for me. If he says to toss it then I'll do that, but it seems pretty wasteful.

[sergechronos]

I would be more inclined to think that you introduced Ethanol into a dirty engine and it started cleaning deposits and circulating them. Knowing now that this isn't the first time this is happened with those turbos I suppose excessive torque could be a possibility. I thought DR750s were okay turbos for a stock engine?

750s are, to my knowledge, at the edge of what stock internals can take on 93 or similar. E85 is somewhat more unknown for the platform that's only just really started to take off in the last year or two IMO (correct me if I'm wrong), so there's not a lot to draw from. Previously though, pistons were generally the weak point of the stock internals, but E85 burns much cooler than gas. Probably to the point that the pistons are less susceptible to damage. Throw in the way that E85 moves the torque curve, rods probably do become the new weak link with the kind of low RPM load from E85. Of course, this is speculation until he tears into the block and has a definitive answer on what happened.

[sergechronos]

I'm going to see what Ray thinks and if he can flush them for me. If he says to toss it then I'll do that, but it seems pretty wasteful.

I would think a radiator shop could probably flush them pretty well.

[J-Groove]

Just read the thread.

Man, started out awesome, then ended up as a sad story.

Some great technical discussion and theory's going on that seem to add up well with some of the results that have been coming out over the last year or so.

Good luck with the build, sorry you have to go through it though. :(

-John

[Ninja Performance]

Good info there. That LOW end big tq could be an issue. Ethanol makes TQ, and the 750s make it low. Interesting.

-Chris

[Jimvr4]

Subscribed. Like John I just starting reading the thread because I knew you were doing great with the new build. And now a rebuild :(

Makes we worry about my build although DR650s won't stress the internals as much I guess. FYI, I zinc plated a bunch of stuff including the oil supply and return lines after giving them a basic cleaning. They come out like new and probably cheaper too if you're doing a bunch of stuff. I paid around $50 a batch.

I was thinking of a parallel to the Microsoft / Intel "Wintel" computers. The motor needs higher power turbos to get faster but then when you add higher power turbos you need a higher power motor. So now we have "Pampynamic" cars :lo5l:

Hoping for the best!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Subscribed. Like John I just starting reading the thread because I knew you were doing great with the new build. And now a rebuild :(

Makes we worry about my build although DR650s won't stress the internals as much I guess. FYI, I zinc plated a bunch of stuff including the oil supply and return lines after giving them a basic cleaning. They come out like new and probably cheaper too if you're doing a bunch of stuff. I paid around $50 a batch.

I was thinking of a parallel to the Microsoft / Intel "Wintel" computers. The motor needs higher power turbos to get faster but then when you add higher power turbos you need a higher power motor. So now we have "Pampynamic" cars :lo5l:

Hoping for the best!

Pump gas with a decent tune I do not think you could break it, especially on 650s. I think if you were going to turn the boost controller to 11 with e85 on 650s I would want forged internals.

I think like most blown engines there were several factors. I think the misfire may have been caused by being a bit too rich around 4000 and that probably hurt the bearings a bit. After ironing that out I started to push some real power down low and something had to give.

The momentary leaness probably just finished it off, but it was hurt before that.

An extra oil change probably would've helped, but there was probably 300 miles on this change, but I did NOT change it immediately after changing to e85,probably should have.

I'm hoping the internals can pinpoint the issue, I'm going to try not to take it too far apart so ray can look at them.

It'll get back together in 2-3 months. Hopefully the crank is fixable, but I have doubts.

[DK77]

I have asked Ray about doing something between the stage 2 and 3 and he told me no. Also, I remember Matt saying he blew his stock motor in the 95 by not letting off with spark blowout, so my thought is that is the root of the cause.

[J. Fast]

You don't want to take on the failure analysis yourself? It would be a great learning experience. You basically run a build sheet in disassembly. An immeasurable amount of knowledge and experience is gained through taking something broken apart and scrutinizing till you come to understand its failure point. Started with little things like a radio when I was 12 and then robots. Now its bridges and buildings haha. Take it apart yourself dude. You're hella smart and can figure it out on your own.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

oh I'll probably check out the rods and what not, but I want to put it back together the way it was. I've seen ray eyeball a bearing in a pic and know exactly what went wrong.

[Autochef]

Sorry to see this man, but with your knowledge and experience you'll be up and running in no time.

If perhaps your oil was diluted with fuel, how do you gauge this? by smell? I have always had a habit of smelling my oil(on any car) and they always have a scent of fuel.

[Ninja Performance]

You don't want to take on the failure analysis yourself? It would be a great learning experience. You basically run a build sheet in disassembly. An immeasurable amount of knowledge and experience is gained through taking something broken apart and scrutinizing till you come to understand its failure point. Started with little things like a radio when I was 12 and then robots. Now its bridges and buildings haha. Take it apart yourself dude. You're hella smart and can figure it out on your own.

THIS

-Chris

[JRink]

hahaha, this thread made me wonder how my loose, tired engine had never spun a bearing. Interesting hypothesis and you see the same trend with Trevor's E16G's. Those DR750's are really producing insane amounts of low end torque (TT Eric's DR750 TQ curve is hilarious). Good luck with the rebuild!

FYI... I know Toni hasn't fixed it yet on his dyno plotting tool, but the graphing for TT Eric's TQ curve is WRONG. It's shifted 500 rpm over to the left compared to where it SHOULD be based on his actual dyno graph plot. Toni has mentioned he'd fix this, but, he hasn't had time yet. So, that's why his tq numbers look hilarious, because it's.. wrong, :P

[futurevr4man]

I'd be a betting man you bent a rod. The bearings probation went after the rod, not before.

Jeff aka kywhitelightning had 19t HL's on a stock block vr4 with lots of meth and he bent one into a nice crescent moon. I would not at all be surprised if you did the same. And after you throw an engine off balance like that, you can't blame the bearings for not holding up.

[J. Fast]

On the engines I've seen fail with a bent rod... The rods folded because a cylinder filled with liquid. When we flooded a cylinder and the Otto cycle tried to compress the liquid and couldn't the rods bent. On one occasion the rods were strong so instead of bending we blew a a hole thru the block.

I'm somewhat skeptical that 500 foot pounds of torque is the bending threshold for stock rods. I'm pretty sure that Matt Monet put down 600 to the wheels on a stock motor with DR750's and had no problems. There so many variables involved.

[Toni]

FYI... I know Toni hasn't fixed it yet on his dyno plotting tool, but the graphing for TT Eric's TQ curve is WRONG. It's shifted 500 rpm over to the left compared to where it SHOULD be based on his actual dyno graph plot. Toni has mentioned he'd fix this, but, he hasn't had time yet. So, that's why his tq numbers look hilarious, because it's.. wrong, :P

Yup, sorry about that. I still haven't gotten around to fixing it. If you notice when you plot the TQ and HP lines they don't cross at 5252.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Time will tell, I wouldn't be shocked to see a bent rod. It'll probably be about 10 days before I get this engine on the stand, this week is kinda shot.

Just pulling off what I can in my spare time:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_0881286s_pp82.JPG

[Toni]

FYI... I know Toni hasn't fixed it yet on his dyno plotting tool, but the graphing for TT Eric's TQ curve is WRONG. It's shifted 500 rpm over to the left compared to where it SHOULD be based on his actual dyno graph plot. Toni has mentioned he'd fix this, but, he hasn't had time yet. So, that's why his tq numbers look hilarious, because it's.. wrong, :P

Yup, sorry about that. I still haven't gotten around to fixing it. If you notice when you plot the TQ and HP lines they don't cross at 5252.

[anyonebutme]

I've seen bent stock 3S rods. I think one was with Phantoms. There's a fine line between a straight, bent, and broken 3S rod......it's easy to jump straight to windowing the block. Most people blow the pistons first from det though.

[CoopKill]

I'd be a betting man you bent a rod. The bearings probation went after the rod, not before.

Jeff aka kywhitelightning had 19t HL's on a stock block vr4 with lots of meth and he bent one into a nice crescent moon. I would not at all be surprised if you did the same. And after you throw an engine off balance like that, you can't blame the bearings for not holding up.
Interesting, what is "lots of meth"?

[futurevr4man]

I don't know how much he was running bill. When I talked consistently to him, I knew about half as much as I do now. I know he told me it was quite a bit though.

Jfast, yeah there are a lot of variables! Understatement of the thread haha! The fluid filled cylinder makes perfect sense, but Chris is not a Joe Schmo... I don't think that was his issue. I should really dig through emails and find pics of Jeff's rod... Anything north of 500 torque and you are in potential rod bending territory (from what I have seen) on a 3s. He has a dyno of hitting almost 600 horsepower, but I have seen other guys run on the same dyno and the numbers were quite inflated (trap speed proven). Jeff's car WAS quite fast though, no doubt.

[TurboSinceBirth]

Sorry to see this man, but with your knowledge and experience you'll be up and running in no time.

If perhaps your oil was diluted with fuel, how do you gauge this? by smell? I have always had a habit of smelling my oil(on any car) and they always have a scent of fuel.

Smell is the easiest indicator. I would notice tuning if I was running rich in the 10s and it started diluting my oil that at hot idle my oil pressure dropped 2-3 psi. Double checking the odor of the oil and also the viscosity of the oil you could tell there was fuel in it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

The only time it ever dropped below 11.0 was a bug in the tune. If I started the car and took off right away it ran rich for a couple seconds as the clutch came out. Once it started rolling it leaned out. The oil didn't smell like fuel at all. I may send a sample to blackstone for kicks.

[sergechronos]

Given how few cars run E85, especially on a stock block (and fewer still have blown motors), this is relatively unknown for us. Again, what we find out from this may vary slightly or wildly from what we've learned from pump. More people blew pistons than rods back in the day, so we don't have much in the way of solid numbers on what they can handle, just some anecdotal evidence. No sense debating it until he tears it open and finds what happened.

[HilbillyHomeboy]

Saw this on the 3SGTO FB page. Guy wants 4k for it, says it has just been sitting in his room.

http://i.imgur.com/X98bxFe.jpg

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Saw this on the 3SGTO FB page. Guy wants 4k for it, says it has just been sitting in his room.

http://i.imgur.com/X98bxFe.jpg

do you have a bigger pic or link? I'm not a facebook guy.

thanks

[futurevr4man]

Old man gump in here with no Facebook!

[HilbillyHomeboy]

do you have a bigger pic or link? I'm not a facebook guy.

thanks

Hopefully, this will work.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/944119_536057489785228_524612922_n.jpg

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Thanks Jeremy! I'm not sure if I want to take the risk, although parting it out and selling the heads would make it a great deal if it is okay.

I take it these are just parts and not an assembled engine? The biggest issue is I do not trust the local machine shop that much.

[Ninja Performance]

I used to bend stock rods like noodles, back when I built and was drag racing SLT/SLTT some 12 years ago. But that was from Nitrous. Nitrous likes to bend rods. Never bent one off the bottle.

-Chris

[HilbillyHomeboy]

Thanks Jeremy! I'm not sure if I want to take the risk, although parting it out and selling the heads would make it a great deal if it is okay.

I take it these are just parts and not an assembled engine? The biggest issue is I do not trust the local machine shop that much.

Judging by the invoice which shows no labor charge, I *assume* it's loose parts. But, I don't know that for sure. Yeah, someone could part out the heads and a few other parts and pretty much clear the rest.

Jeremy

[Jimvr4]

I read on the other site that CP pistons are .030 over and they're the only ones that use that size.

[HilbillyHomeboy]

Shelf is .030 over for CP. Don't see why that would be of any concern, though.

Jeremy

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

the crowler rods don't exactly float my boat either

[HilbillyHomeboy]

Worked like a champ for me. Went through 2 builds with no deformity. That build list is modeled directly from my recipe. Minus the Cometic HG's. Tried those, stock MLS is better. And the ARP studs I ditched for A1's.

Makes no difference to me; I have no horse in this race. I just saw the ad on FB, saw it was a deal, and passed it along. :)

Jeremy

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Worked like a champ for me. Went through 2 builds with no deformity. That build list is modeled directly from my recipe. Minus the Cometic HG's. Tried those, stock MLS is better. And the ARP studs I ditched for A1's.

Makes no difference to me; I have no horse in this race. I just saw the ad on FB, saw it was a deal, and passed it along. :)

Jeremy

no, don't get me wrong, it is a great deal and I appreciate the heads up a lot.

[Ray Pampena]

hey man got your PM and just read the whole thead.. sucks man sorry to hear it. let me know when you plan to take it apart so i can look closely with you or i can take it apart for you. its critical in knowing what went wrong.

ive seen tons of bent rods over the years.. and now with e85 popular i see many more bent rods. E85 is rough on the pins, rods bearings but not as rough on the piston itself. in your case, it may not be a bent rod because all of the bent rods ive seen have had no bearing failure. the noise comes from the piston pin boss hitting the crank. a bent rod happens in a more isolated incedent as where the bearing problems happen from a longer drawn out tune issue. ill PM you back

[AdamVR4]

I used to bend stock rods like noodles, back whenever I built and was drag racing SLT/SLTT some 12 years ago. But that was from Nitrous. Nitrous likes to bend rods. Never bent one off the bottle.

-Chris

Pretty sure you still had your red 1g vr4 12 years ago, haha... slt/tt was like 04/05 wasnt it? :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

For those that have shipped an engine, what is the best company? I have some pallets or can build a crate, but need a good freight company that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

[sergechronos]

For those that have shipped an engine, what is the best company? I have some pallets or can build a crate, but need a good freight company that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Never shipped a complete engine..I went with AAA Cooper. Was 110 for an engine block, and I think like 150 for a tranny and tcase.

[AdamVR4]

For those that Haverford shipped an engine, what is the best company? I have some pallets or can build a crate, but need a good freight company that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

I think I used freightquote.com (rays rec)... tx to ny was a lot... like $350 (4 bolt 6g72 block + 6g74 crank on 24" x 24" pallet)

[HilbillyHomeboy]

Shipped transaxle via Fedex freight years ago. Simply palleted it, and used ratchet straps. No problems. Much cheaper if you have a commercial address to ship to also.

Jeremy

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I think I used freightquote.com (rays rec)... tx to ny was a lot... like $350 (4 bolt 6g72 block + 6g74 crank on 24" x 24" pallet)

Cool, I think I have some pallets at home, they are the big ones, but I'll just cut it down. will be sending the block, heads, with rotating assembly, so it'll be pretty heavy. I wonder how we are supposed to calculate the weight of all that. I know the block is about 150.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Shipped transaxle via Fedex freight years ago. Simply palleted it, and used ratchet straps. No problems. Much cheaper if you have a commercial address to ship to also.

Jeremy

I don't know why, but when I quoted fedex for a 6 speed recently they wanted $450!

[sergechronos]

Cool, I think I have some pallets at home, they are the big ones, but I'll just cut it down. will be sending the block, heads, with rotating assembly, so it'll be pretty heavy. I wonder how we are supposed to calculate the weight of all that. I know the block is about 150.

Full long block and tranny comes in at 685 IIRC. So probably around 500ish for the long block.

You could potentially ship to a terminal (if Ray is down for that) which can be cheaper.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

of that reminds me if Ray sees this, do you want the crank pulley and flywheel for balancing? Clutch?

[HilbillyHomeboy]

I don't know why, but when I quoted fedex for a 6 speed recently they wanted $450!

WOW, that's up there! Yikes...

Jeremy

[vroom4]

The trick for shipping transmissions is to put them in the biggest box the ups store sells. Then build support structure inside using more cardboard. Then wrap the transmission in shrink wrap, wrap it in that foam packaging stuff, rewrap in shrink wrap. Put in box, stuff more cardboard in gaps.

I shipped one for 155$ fully insured for 2500$ that way.

[NOMIEZVR4]

greyhound is pretty decent too..

[Ninja Performance]

Pretty sure you still had your red 1g vr4 12 years ago, haha... slt/tt was like 04/05 wasnt it? :)

You are right, getting senile in my old age LOL.

-Chris

[Snook]

subbed

[RealMcCoy]

For those that have shipped an engine, what is the best company? I have some pallets or can build a crate, but need a good freight company that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Let them fight over you... Make an account, get a quote, and take the best price that isn't a fly-by-night operation...

Freight Quote, Freight Companies, Freight Shipping Companies, Shipping Rates - FreightCenter.com (http://www.freightcenter.com/)

[Greg E]

uShip - The Online Shipping Marketplace - Ship Freight, Furniture, Cars or Moves (http://www.uship.com)

[fastfalcon94]

That really sucks about your engine. There have been quite a few stock ones blown up trying to hit big power on the dr750s. I'm very curious what the failure diagnosis. I'm running 25psi with meth on mine (not even a sign of knock) and hesitant to push it further right now. I'm worried that there is a small grey area where the meth is causing the engine not to register knock, but still putting extra stress on the bearings. You were running a stock ecu with stock timing map too. I would say it would be worse with aggressive timing or a piggyback system. Maybe it was just a lifetime of wear and tear. Are you going to continue running the same oil? It looks like the 10w40 is rated well on forced performances oil analysis guide. (http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/news/Forced%20Performance%20Recommendations%20for%20Mot or%20Oil.pdf)


I shipped my tranny to Ray. I just used a big cardboard box and some expanding foam. Cut up some extra cardboard to fit in the bottom of the box. Then criss-cross some expanding foam and add a piece of cardboard on top. Do that 4-5 times and when it hardens you will have a 4-5" thick foam/cardboard bottom. Do the same thing to the sides but only use 3 layers of cardboard. Then put a plastic bag around the tranny and set it in the bottom of the box. Fill any voids with smaller pieces of cardboard cut up/folded and/or any thick foam packaging. I used my friends work to ship my tranny. Fedex wanted over $250 one way because it exceeded 150 pounds. My friends work cost me a little over $80 each way.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

uShip - The Online Shipping Marketplace - Ship Freight, Furniture, Cars or Moves (http://www.uship.com)

Thanks for the links guys, I will try them. We agree the longblock is 500 lbs?

At the rate things are coming apart I'll have it out by Monday.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

That really sucks about your engine. There have been quite a few stock ones blown up trying to hit big power on the dr750s. I'm very curious what the failure diagnosis. I'm running 25psi with meth on mine (not even a sign of knock) and hesitant to push it further right now. I'm worried that there is a small grey area where the meth is causing the engine not to register knock, but still putting extra stress on the bearings. You were running a stock ecu with stock timing map too. I would say it would be worse with aggressive timing or a piggyback system. Maybe it was just a lifetime of wear and tear. Are you going to continue running the same oil? It looks like the 10w40 is rated well on forced performances oil analysis guide. (http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/news/Forced%20Performance%20Recommendations%20for%20Mot or%20Oil.pdf)


I shipped my tranny to Ray. I just used a big cardboard box and some expanding foam. Cut up some extra cardboard to fit in the bottom of the box. Then criss-cross some expanding foam and add a piece of cardboard on top. Do that 4-5 times and when it hardens you will have a 4-5" thick foam/cardboard bottom. Do the same thing to the sides but only use 3 layers of cardboard. Then put a plastic bag around the tranny and set it in the bottom of the box. Fill any voids with smaller pieces of cardboard cut up/folded and/or any thick foam packaging. I used my friends work to ship my tranny. Fedex wanted over $250 one way because it exceeded 150 pounds. My friends work cost me a little over $80 each way.

I certainly would not push harder than you are and after going through this I would personally dial it back until you can build the engine.

I was only running the off the shelf mobil 1 10w40, not any racing series oil. I'm going to grab a sample of the oil to send to blackstone to see if anything other than particulates in it are bad and ray is going to do a failure analysis as well. If the oil was broken down I'll go to something better.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

The trick for shipping transmissions is to put them in the biggest box the ups store sells. Then build support structure inside using more cardboard. Then wrap the transmission in shrink wrap, wrap it in that foam packaging stuff, rewrap in shrink wrap. Put in box, stuff more cardboard in gaps.

I shipped one for 155$ fully insured for 2500$ that way.

the six speed is over the weigh limit. the 5 can be shipped that way

[RealMcCoy]

We agree the longblock is 500 lbs?


Whatever you do when shipping freight, DO NOT under any circumstances underestimate the weight... Shipping is a cutthroat business, and if they think you're overweight they'll sideline your shipment for review. It adds days to the shipping time, and they rape you in fees, on top of adding the additional cost of whatever the weight difference is...

[sergechronos]

Whatever you do when shipping freight, DO NOT under any circumstances underestimate the weight... Shipping is a cutthroat business, and if they think you're overweight they'll sideline your shipment for review. It adds days to the shipping time, and they rape you in fees, on top of adding the additional cost of whatever the weight difference is...

What he said.

It is in your best interest (if possible) to find a freight terminal near you and take them the long block to weigh on a pallet. They generally won't charge you for it, and worst case you give the guy 10 bucks for it, or drastically overestimate the weight unless someone here knows it for a fact. I know the 1g long block and tranny combo weighs in at around 685, and the engine block weighs 150, the trans has a weight of..110 I think. But it's speculation.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I think I'll just grab a couple of cheap scales, lay the pallet on them and lower the engine down, then add the weight up. If it works for corner weighting a car it should work for me.

I can't see it being over 500 though. The cams, lower intake, headers, turbos, and all the timing crap will be off. basically just heads, block, crank, pistons and rods. The heads are around 60-70 iirc. I know the block is about 150. The crank is about 50. The pistons and rods are probably about 10.

Really it may come in around 350 lbs.

Hellaflush came by last night to give me a hand and we got the radiator, downpipe, drivers axle, starter wiring, and most of the stuff to get the passenger axle out already.

Just need to pull the pass axle out, take off the t-case, finish removing wires up top, take out the trans mount, loosen the other mounts, unhook the heater hoses, take the slave cylinder off the trans, pull the battery tray out, remove the a/c compressor, and the ps pump and that is about it. Hopefully have it on a stand by Monday.

I sure hate antifreeze dripping on my constantly. Once you pull the radiator and throttle body hoses these things seem to leak everywhere for a while.

[HilbillyHomeboy]

Heads with cams and gears are over 70. I know this because UPS destroyed a set I bought many years ago. Driver told me "Never ship an 'over 70' with us, it'll get broke every time".

No need for 18 posts after this describing what you've shipped with UPS that was 'over 70' and didn't get broke. I'm just relaying advice that came from a driver. :)

Jeremy

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Heads with cams and gears are over 70. I know this because UPS destroyed a set I bought many years ago. Driver told me "Never ship an 'over 70' with us, it'll get broke every time".

No need for 18 posts after this describing what you've shipped with UPS that was 'over 70' and didn't get broke. I'm just relaying advice that came from a driver. :)

Jeremy

That sounds about right. I think I shipped a set of cams to turbosincebirth and it was 60 with no cams. The cams and gears might as well stay here. Although I was thinking of tracking down a set of 1st gen ones for a little more power.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Anyone else have the feeling my timing is too high? 22 degrees at redline is probably great for 160 or 180 load, but probably not for 250. I think I'm going to pull some timing out especially once it gets over 190 load or so. By 320 load it probably could even be 15-16 degrees.

I'm considering pulling about 2-3 degrees in all the load areas over 100 and maybe 5 degrees above 200 load. At least if I start low with it I can move up and make sure power is increasing.

[Greg E]

Anyone else have the feeling my timing is too high? 22 degrees at redline is probably great for 160 or 180 load, but probably not for 250. I think I'm going to pull some timing out especially once it gets over 190 load or so. By 320 load it probably could even be 15-16 degrees.

I'm considering pulling about 2-3 degrees in all the load areas over 100 and maybe 5 degrees above 200 load. At least if I start low with it I can move up and make sure power is increasing.

I don't typically play with the timing much under 190 load. The MAFT setups are a different story but with an EVO MAF at anything below 200 load, you're not flowing enough air to make any kind of cylinder pressure.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I don't typically play with the timing much under 190 load. The MAFT setups are a different story but with an EVO MAF at anything below 200 load, you're not flowing enough air to make any kind of cylinder pressure.

That's Greg. I think I will drop the 320/7000 column to 17 and smooth it out towards the lower loads from there. I think the hardest part of my tune on the bearings was around 4700 to 6000. By 4700 it was already ramped up to 16 degrees at 20 psi boost and 240 load. By 6000 it had a full 21 degrees at 19-20PSI and 227 load. My thinking is that is about 2-3 degrees too high, but it is hard to compare numbers with other tuning methods.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I am confused though how piggyback guys don't blow their shit up constantly. Even if you are at high IDC after a certain point the ECU is going to keep running the same timing with the stock maps. 22 degrees at 30 PSI doesn't sound real good.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

uShip - The Online Shipping Marketplace - Ship Freight, Furniture, Cars or Moves (http://www.uship.com)

looks nice, around $250 for 24 by 24 pallet 36" high and 400 lbs. 500 and 600 was the same.

[Greg E]

They do blow their shit up. Todd destroyed 2 stock motors with the sane setup and mannerisms as your failure. He is running the ARC2.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

They do blow their shit up. Todd destroyed 2 stock motors with the sane setup and mannerisms as your failure. He is running the ARC2.

Oh, I see how what I posted could be taken as a blow against flash ecu, I didn't mean that. I'm just saying I'm surprised that some people seem to get along like that for years.

[Greg E]

Oh, I see how what I posted could be taken as a blow against flash ecu, I didn't mean that. I'm just saying I'm surprised that some people seem to get along like that for years.

I never took it as such. :)

This is something I wanted to pick Matt's brain with next time we talk.

[JasonY]

No turbos until recently have made power as soon as the 750s have either. Only 13g class turbos made power as quickly and they are down 100 or more hp in the mid range and as much as 200up top on the 750s. Probably why anyone making any real power with these things and runs their cars hard has either a built or broken engine.

Jason

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

It was being run hard while it lasted ;) never had more fun

I'm sure if I ran 15 psi on 93 it would last a million years, but I didn't buy these turbos to do that.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

If that is all it really is then I don't have a problem at all with this. I just don't want to blow my built engine.

[CoopKill]

I am looking at the same scenario if these mtc's hold up. I had already planned on swapping in a Pamp block next year as I had a feeling things would get sticky somehow. Jason makes a great point too. I am jealous of your fun you did have. Wish me luck!

[TurboSinceBirth]

I'm curious what my full timing map looks like once I get the car back together since the motor survived. I'm sure my torque curve is a little later seeing positive boost at 2100 rpms and full boost 30 psi by about 3300-3500 rpms. 22 degrees does seem a little high at redline.

[Greg E]

I'm curious what my full timing map looks like once I get the car back together since the motor survived. I'm sure my torque curve is a little later seeing positive boost at 2100 rpms and full boost 30 psi by about 3300-3500 rpms. 22 degrees does seem a little high at redline. I could see that at peak torque but probably mid teens at redline.

You really don't want 22 degrees of timing at peak torque.

[TurboSinceBirth]

You really don't want 22 degrees of timing at peak torque.

Edit: Nevermind, the information was misleading. Every person's motor blew up that ran high timing on piggybacks. It should definitely be in the single digits or lower teens.

[familyMAN]

I'm curious what my full timing map looks like once I get the car back together since the motor survived. I'm sure my torque curve is a little later seeing positive boost at 2100 rpms and full boost 30 psi by about 3300-3500 rpms. 22 degrees does seem a little high at redline. I could see that at peak torque but probably mid teens at redline.

That's backwards. You want to pull timing at peak tq and then feed it back in. 20*+ timing at ~4k peak with 600+awtq on these big billet td04s sounds VERY+ aggressive.


I guess some that have done it got lucky.
I think you may be referencing Chris Hills timing at peak tq because he has stated around 22-23 degrees but his tq peak is out at 5-6k where his stock heads/cams are needing the extra timing already; not at 3500ish like these billet bolt ons are doing.

[CoopKill]

Jeff @ IPS sent Brett's block/rotating assembly here. It states 250# on the shipping slip.

[TurboSinceBirth]

That's backwards. You want to pull timing at peak tq and then feed it back in. 20*+ timing at ~4k peak with 600+awtq on these big billet td04s sounds VERY+ aggressive.


I think you may be referencing Chris Hills timing at peak tq because he has stated around 22-23 degrees but his tq peak is out at 5-6k where his stock heads/cams are needing the extra timing already; not at 3500ish like these billet bolt ons are doing.

It would be too aggressive. I've seen a few piggyback guys running ethanol or huge amounts of meth hit big peak torque timing numbers and sometimes even high numbers to redline. Most of these were 13T, 19T, etc TD04 cars although I have seen some E16G cars do the same. It's probably why they had issues with their lower or top end eventually. I would probably go for 5 or less at peak torque and mid teens at redline for a safe tune until a dyno was available. I wouldn't at all recommend aggressive timing but people have ventured into it whether they wanted to or not.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Jeff @ IPS sent Brett's block/rotating assembly here. It states 250# on the shipping slip.

Thanks with heads and oil cooler 350 should be plenty.

Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Board Express

[Ninja Performance]

You want scary, here is 35-36psi from idle to 8800RPM
500rpm-18.859375
19.2109375
19.9140625
20.265625
20.96875
21.3203125
21.671875
22.375
22.7265625
23.078125
23.4296875
23.78125
24.1328125
24.484375
24.8359375
24.8359375
25.1875
25.5390625
25.890625
26.2421875
8800rpm-26.59375

Always run 36psi, have torn down for other reasons, upgrades, parts swap out, testing, checking out before the drag season. NEVER any bearing wear. Like a new engine with 5 miles on it. Never a damaged part. Never any coolant push (I have copper oringed block, OEM HGs, no receiver groove in heads)

These numbers were found by MANY days on a dyno finding where peak power is on AFR and Timing. leaning one way and he other. And this is what it likes.
Stock heads, stock cams, PTE 5027s (DR1000 size turbos) TD05 .48 hot side.

Chris

[Ninja Performance]

DO NOT use my numbers as a reference, starting point, or compare. My car runs on 100% alcohol. 95% Ethanol 5% Methanl (not meth injection this is all in take fuel)

Following these numbers will more than likely send your engine parts outside the engine bay.

-Chris

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

That's crazy, I'd imagine it has something to do with pushing your hotsides that hard and the reversion it probably has.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

seem reasonable?

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/new_timingXxrz_2qu5.jpg

[familyMAN]

I would try to smooth the big jump from 4500 to 5000, high load timing.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I would try to smooth the big jump from 4500 to 5000, high load timing.

believe it or not that is how the stock map is. I took 3-4 degrees from the highest load and just interpolated horizontally each line.

[futurevr4man]

a few things:

- trevor lol, thats not even fair! alcohol runs so much cooler! to be honest, i dont think you should have posted that... i dont want people looking at it and getting ballsy with their setup. alcohol is not even in the same realm as pump gas or even e85. but those are crazy, and holy balls im sure the car moves!

- im not sure why a lot of you all are surprised the bearings are taking a lot of wear and tear? name another platform that is all about turbo response *to the extent that this platform is*. please. because as far as i know, there isnt one. im not sure why anyone would be surprised you pound out bearings (or bend rods) when you are hitting full boost by 3000rpm's or sooner. like 25 - 30psi that early... of course you are going to put some force on the bearings. the cam overlap and just general mechanics of how an engine work... its a lot for the engine to take in so early. but i digress... that is absolutely my opinion and from what i have seen it holds up well.

- chris, about that timing chart... the jump from 11 degrees to 18 degrees at 5000rpm and 230 load scares the crap out of me. even my car with significantly more lag can hit those numbers at that rpm. i think that timing jump will either induce knock, or just in general make your tune a bit rough. take that for what its worth though :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

keep in mind the ecu is going to interpolate between those cells as the engine passes through that rpm. again, it is a stock map with a little timing removed up top. I'd like to stick with conservative adjustments. I don't want to change things too greatly either direction.

[familyMAN]

Just reread most of this thread...Unless I missed something, why are we thinking less than 500awtq killed a stock rod?

[futurevr4man]

i dont.

[donniekak]

Generally speaking, on cars tuned on a stock ecu, any car, I pull 1* of timing per lb of boost over stock as a super safe base map to start tuning with. I don't tune alcohol cars by knock sensor activity either. I read plugs, and log 70-90 times, for the most part.

Family man rode in a Dsm that I built that ran 4* of timing at 4500rpms ramping to 17* at 8000. The car did not feel unresponsive at boost onset at all, if fact it was quite violent. The reality of tuning cars is that they all like different timing maps. It's way better to have a temporarily slow car due to a lack of timing, than a blown up car due to to much.

[Ninja Performance]

a few things:

- trevor lol, thats not even fair! alcohol runs so much cooler! to be honest, i dont think you should have posted that... i dont want people looking at it and getting ballsy with their setup. alcohol is not even in the same realm as pump gas or even e85. but those are crazy, and holy balls im sure the car moves!

- im not sure why a lot of you all are surprised the bearings are taking a lot of wear and tear? name another platform that is all about turbo response *to the extent that this platform is*. please. because as far as i know, there isnt one. im not sure why anyone would be surprised you pound out bearings (or bend rods) when you are hitting full boost by 3000rpm's or sooner. like 25 - 30psi that early... of course you are going to put some force on the bearings. the cam overlap and just general mechanics of how an engine work... its a lot for the engine to take in so early. but i digress... that is absolutely my opinion and from what i have seen it holds up well.

- chris, about that timing chart... the jump from 11 degrees to 18 degrees at 5000rpm and 230 load scares the crap out of me. even my car with significantly more lag can hit those numbers at that rpm. i think that timing jump will either induce knock, or just in general make your tune a bit rough. take that for what its worth though :)

Trevor? You mean Chris?

-Chris

[futurevr4man]

Trevor? You mean Chris?

-Chris

maybe :suspect:

sorry, had a brain fart. happens to the best of us :p

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

MAN, I thought I was sub'd to this thread. Was looking forward to progress, not problems! Sorry to hear about the motor, forced upgrades are never fun.

Curious to find out what exactly failed.

[JRink]

You really don't want 22 degrees of timing at peak torque.
Concur. I wouldn't dare run timing that high at peak torque, especially at 30psi. Seems like a kaboom waiting to happen.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

seem reasonable?

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/new_timingXxrz_2qu5.jpg


I would try to smooth the big jump from 4500 to 5000, high load timing.

This. I found that whole area of the map needed to be completely smooth to not induce knock at higher boost. The jump down and then back up made mine knock.

[ChargerX3]

Great info here. Sorry to hear about the news Forest.

[guido1205us]

Wow. Read the whole thread - sorry about your car Forest. This happened to a 2nd gen, 4 bolt car?

After reading about the other 2nd gen DR750 that blew due to possible false readings with meth, I wanted to give up on it and go E85. Now I'm questioning that. My Billet 19t may be no where near as powerful as DR750s but this still brings in questions to how far I should aim. I may have to rethink and stay with 93 and bring my awhp goals down a bit from 550 to 475 or so. I don't want spun bearings, blown rods, etc.

I guess Matt with meth and Pampena with E85 can make big power on DR750 with the minimalist of mods on tired engines and not blow them, but that doesn't mean the rest of us will be able to duplicate it and speak reliability at the same time. I guess the saying is true "your mileage may vary".

It'll be interesting to see what you've concluded, and what engine/setup is best suited to handle the power of DR750s without destroying your car.

[JasonY]

Pampena 3.1. As far as Todds car/false knock. Im really thinking more towards just straight broken from power on older engines now after Gumps engine failure.

Jason

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Generally speaking, on cars tuned on a stock ecu, any car, I pull 1* of timing per lb of boost over stock as a super safe base map to start tuning with. I don't tune alcohol cars by knock sensor activity either. I read plugs, and log 70-90 times, for the most part.

Family man rode in a Dsm that I built that ran 4* of timing at 4500rpms ramping to 17* at 8000. The car did not feel unresponsive at boost onset at all, if fact it was quite violent. The reality of tuning cars is that they all like different timing maps. It's way better to have a temporarily slow car due to a lack of timing, than a blown up car due to to much.

Certainly your strategy is very safe and a great idea.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

This. I found that whole area of the map needed to be completely smooth to not induce knock at higher boost. The jump down and then back up made mine knock.

I need to talk with Greg about it, but there is certainly some scaling changes that could be done. The stock map looks focused on a couple things:

1)Very stable timing at idle and slightly off idle
2)High timing about where the stock turbos start to die out.

I could probably combine some of the lower rpm ranges to stretch out the mid to upper range with a few more lines, but like I mentioned I don't want to make huge changes without supporting evidence. The stock timing map has worked for people for years and years and Matt personally always ran even more timing than stock with upgraded ecu's and large injectors on piggybacks. The stock map *should* be safe.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Great info here. Sorry to hear about the news Forest.

Thank you. Hopefully others can learn from this and it can save people money in the long run.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Wow. Read the whole thread - sorry about your car Forest. This happened to a 2nd gen, 4 bolt car?

After reading about the other 2nd gen DR750 that blew due to possible false readings with meth, I wanted to give up on it and go E85. Now I'm questioning that. My Billet 19t may be no where near as powerful as DR750s but this still brings in questions to how far I should aim. I may have to rethink and stay with 93 and bring my awhp goals down a bit from 550 to 475 or so. I don't want spun bearings, blown rods, etc.

I guess Matt with meth and Pampena with E85 can make big power on DR750 with the minimalist of mods on tired engines and not blow them, but that doesn't mean the rest of us will be able to duplicate it and speak reliability at the same time. I guess the saying is true "your mileage may vary".

It'll be interesting to see what you've concluded, and what engine/setup is best suited to handle the power of DR750s without destroying your car.

I will be sure to share any information that is obtained from inspecting my internals. If my tune was off I'm not afraid to let it out. If I had a huge blob of rtv in the pan, a bearing installed with dirt behind it, what ever it is I'm not going to hide anything. I hope like Jason said it was just a lot of power for an old engine. We should keep in mind that for several days prior I was running 4 PSI more, so the torque on virtual dyno chart could have been easily 50 ft/lbs higher.

If you look at a lot of the long running bigger turbo cars on stock blocks they are making more horsepower than torque, so 600AWHP is slightly deceiving.

Also, there are not a lot of setups that made as much down low, certainly not on a bone stock 3.0.

[familyMAN]

Family man rode in a Dsm that I built that ran 4* of timing at 4500rpms ramping to 17* at 8000. The car did not feel unresponsive at boost onset at all, if fact it was quite violent. The reality of tuning cars is that they all like different timing maps. It's way better to have a temporarily slow car due to a lack of timing, than a blown up car due to to much.

Definitely a hard hitting car! 4* and 30+psi worked:D

[futurevr4man]

lol, only 50 more ft-lbs for 4 lbs of boost... ok. more like 70 - 80 ft-lbs :D

[Greg E]

I need to talk with Greg about it, but there is certainly some scaling changes that could be done. The stock map looks focused on a couple things:

1)Very stable timing at idle and slightly off idle
2)High timing about where the stock turbos start to die out.

I could probably combine some of the lower rpm ranges to stretch out the mid to upper range with a few more lines, but like I mentioned I don't want to make huge changes without supporting evidence. The stock timing map has worked for people for years and years and Matt personally always ran even more timing than stock with upgraded ecu's and large injectors on piggybacks. The stock map *should* be safe.

Now that people are making power with the stock ECU, the question everyone keeps asking me about is why the timing map is so aggressive.

The timing map as you see it even though its 15x30 now instead of 20x15 is still a 100% stock map as Mitsubishi programmed it to be. The reason I left it this way was because of liability. If I change the map (even to be more conservative) I introduce myself as being liable for any damage done to any motor chrome is used on.

For some reason, people have this notion that they don't need to tune their cars... It's a matter I need to protect myself from.

[futurevr4man]

Now that people are making power with the stock ECU, the question everyone keeps asking me about is why the timing map is so aggressive.

The timing map as you see it even though its 15x30 now instead of 20x15 is still a 100% stock map as Mitsubishi programmed it to be. The reason I left it this way was because of liability. If I change the map (even to be more conservative) I introduce myself as being liable for any damage done to any motor chrome is used on.

For some reason, people have this notion that they don't need to tune their cars... It's a matter I need to protect myself from.


the cars also had their turbos die off at upper rpm's (after like what, 5000?) so the timing needed to ramp to try and flaten out the torque and horsepower. when you start making big power, you cant have 20+ degrees of timing at peak torque. or... you can, but... this happens :(

[Greg E]

the cars also had their turbos die off at upper rpm's (after like what, 5000?) so the timing needed to ramp to try and flaten out the torque and horsepower. when you start making big power, you cant have 20+ degrees of timing at peak torque. or... you can, but... this happens :(


Timing advance refers to the degrees that the spark plug is fired prior to the piston reaching Top Dead Center (BTDC). The higher the timing number in the load cell that the car hits during WOT operation, the further ahead of TDC that the spark plug is fired. The lower the timing number in the load cell during WOT, the closer to TDC that the spark plug is fired. As the rpm increases so does the timing advance. Why? Well the engine has faster speeds and the spark plug must be fired earlier or else there would not be enough time to complete the burn of the air/fuel mixture.

You can actually tune your AFRs by playing with timing alone.

[futurevr4man]

Timing advance refers to the degrees that the spark plug is fired prior to the piston reaching Top Dead Center (BTDC). The higher the timing number in the load cell that the car hits during WOT operation, the further ahead of TDC that the spark plug is fired. The lower the timing number in the load cell during WOT, the closer to TDC that the spark plug is fired. As the rpm increases so does the timing advance. Why? Well the engine has faster speeds and the spark plug must be fired earlier or else there would not be enough time to complete the burn of the air/fuel mixture.

You can actually tune your AFRs by playing with timing alone.


Si. And when the fuel is ignited in the cylinder a flame front, almost like a shockwave of fire is created. That's why different fuels like different timing; the flame front can either come quicker or later, and it can cause cylinder pressures to skyrocket. That can cause a desired effect like holding the horsepower and torque more flat through upper rpm's... It can also bend a rod.

Chris, I know you know all this already :)

[Greg E]

Chris, I know you know all this already :)

:lol:

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Well today was busy. pulled the

1)oil cooler and lines.
2)grabbed an oil sample from the oil cooler and that is off to blackstone labs
3)moved the a/c compressor
4)Dropped the trans. I decided to drop it first because I found it hard to pull of the engine with the engine on the hoist last time. It isn't really much more work to do it this way anyway.
5)pulled the belts
6)unhooked all other misc stuff to pull the motor

pretty much just need to hook the hoist up and pull the front, rear, and drivers mount, then lift the engine out.

time to eat!

[anyonebutme]

done yet?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

done yet?

yep!

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1081US8P_NTS8.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1082sQhT_a3Li.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_10891Qh9_43l4.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1093LMSq_j8Cm.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1094htl5_qMp0.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1103XATq_FT82.JPG

no problems

[Greg E]

Wisconsin chicks are awesome!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Wisconsin chicks are awesome!

yeah she is. She is not afraid to get dirty! she just completed her master's ,defended her thesis successfully last thursday, and landed a sweet job with the university!

I couldn't have rolled that engine up the hill in my garage without her.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Does anyone have experience with using bolts and washers to substitute for axles so I can roll the car out? Any guesstimates on sizes?

[akotten]

Does anyone have experience with using bolts and washers to substitute for axles so I can roll the car out? Any guesstimates on sizes?

What do you mean? It should be able to roll freely without the front axles in...

[Greg E]

What do you mean? It should be able to roll freely without the front axles in...

You'll destroy the wheel bearings.

I have junk axle spindles for this purpose.

[akotten]

You'll destroy the wheel bearings.

I have junk axle spindles for this purpose.

Please explain.

edit: nevermind...found the reasoning.

[CoopKill]

I am hoping since I did this, that by putting the axle back in it will snug the small play up when tightening?

[Greg E]

I am hoping since I did this, that by putting the axle back in it will snug the small play up when tightening?

Even resting the weight of the car on the empty wheel bearing can strain it.

[anyonebutme]

on the other side of the aurgument, I left my stealth on unsupported wheel bearings for 6+ months, rolling it around, with no side effects. I would still suggest popping the axles back in or get some stubs.

[RealMcCoy]

Does anyone have experience with using bolts and washers to substitute for axles so I can roll the car out? Any guesstimates on sizes?

1/2" by 4" bolts with nuts and flats, and some malleable iron washers...

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/lnmccoy/ForumPics/Hubsave_zpsdc8be47e.jpg (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/lnmccoy/media/ForumPics/Hubsave_zpsdc8be47e.jpg.html)

[kywhitelightning]

To clear the air about the bent rod causing spun bearings, that is false. Ray was spot on with his description. The rod bent, causing the crankshaft counterweight to hit the pin boss and it chipped a little bit of the skirt off. This rod was driven/babied 250+ miles like this to get it back home after the dyno at IPS. There was not one bearing flake in the pan. There was however, the piece of piston skirt in the pan. Here's a pic of how it was rubbed. http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr316/jjd222002/IMAG1112_zps34f1ac98.jpg

I doubt timing up top hurt Chris's, as a matter of fact I have a hard time believing stock timing hurt it at all. I have 750's now with raised compression running 93 pump and 1000ml/min of meth and have done a few pulls above the stock cap of 22*. This was also peaking 25psi and leveling out to 22 by redline. I am also running the chrome software, which I absolutely love, that allows me to make timing changes without readjusting the fpr. These engines have been run hard for years with above stock timing because the second you put a piggyback on it and change the maf frequency, timing is going up. My old 19t setup would see 25-26* and like it. 27 was iffy and 28* caused the failure along with a few other tuning mistakes. I did some pulls prior to the IPS dyno with 28* and it seemed ok but I later found a leaking methanol hose which I attribute a lot of the failure to. The fact that I pushed the car harder even though it was knocking is just bad judgement on my part and I paid my dues for that.

I have been fighting compressor surge since the 750's have been put on though. I'm working on a fix but haven't gotten anything worth posting about yet. Raised compression and 750's may not be the best way to go because they spool so stinking fast. The car was undrivable in the cold. As much as Matt tries to stop people from calling it surge, it is exactly that. When pushed harder and harder it gets more and more violent eventually causing bucking. On the 19t's a simple blip of the throttle and I was good to go again. It's hit and miss with this setup. Even in the warmer temps. I know I'm not the only one with the issue now because Ray just recently had a dyno day where he had to start a pull a little later just because of that. Hopefully, it'll work as it is planned to. I just wonder if my raised compression is an equivalent to the alcohol's effect on tq in Chris's case.

Chris, I hate to see this and I was really excited to get to see your car at the NG. I really hope you can thrash to get it back going again and get it there. Now that you are started you aren't going to want to stop until complete. Good luck with the new rebuild.

Jeff

[NOMIEZVR4]

KyWhitelightning can you please post more details about your car and setup and how you like/dislike it so far compared to the 19T's...nice to see you got the car up and running again congratulations! :)

[fastfalcon94]

When I built my vr4 it sat outside for about a year without an engine in it. I did bolt the axles back in though so I wouldn't destroy the wheel bearings. You just gotta be careful when rolling the shell around. Do it slowly and make sure the axles won't catch and bind on something. My buddy bought bond auto parts wheel bearings for his dsm and he always had his engine out. He never did this and went through quite a few wheel bearings. Fortunately they had a lifetime warranty so he just kept bringing them back.


I get surge on my dr750s too, but it's very forgiving with speed density. I just stay out of surge by either letting off the gas, or hammering on it when I want to go. It's part throttle where I'll see it. I want to add divider plate going to my front mount, but I'm waiting on another guy on here to do it and test it out first.

[Ninja Performance]

Does anyone have experience with using bolts and washers to substitute for axles so I can roll the car out? Any guesstimates on sizes?

In the past I used large bolts and washers and nuts, currently I have old CV shafts that were replaced in customer cars, I chopped off just the end knuckle and use those.

-Chris

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

http://vimeo.com/68587607

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

don't worry that oil filter was just to keep dirt out, I don't run those!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'd love to get this back together for NG, but I have to be realistic with machine shop time. At best the engine will be at Ray's by the end of the week.

Turbos are going out to DR today. Engine is down to the valve covers, should have it down to block tonight. I could just buzzsaw through the tear down, but I bag every bolt and take pictures of brackets so I don't forget how to put this back together.

With just one rod bearing dominated I feel less like this was a tune issue. I'd expect multiple ones to be beat up if the timing was too high or something like that.

The only thing concerning is there is some white residue in the headers, but it looks like that white stuff on the plugs, so maybe that is just from the alcohol.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

oh and the turbos look 'ok' to me. There are 1 or 2 micro chips on each turbine blade, but they were too small to even photograph. Looks like normal wear, but I was not brave enough to pull the turbine housing, so I'll leave that to DR to decide.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

honestly less material than I thought in the pan:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/WP_20130617_001BJk8_JCoK.jpg

[JasonY]

Todds car also had a white powder wheen the first engine died looked like the stuff C16 leaves on ur exhaust tips. I guess that was also from the alcohol. It kinda threw me at the time also...even the turbine wheels/exh housing was white with the residue or w/e it is.

Jason

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

The engine all apart smells a little moonshiny now, so I'm interested to see the fuel contamination level, hopefully they get the sample soon.

[R/T93]

In your vid when you skipped the one rod I knew it would be a, "Look at me!!" moment.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

In your vid when you skipped the one rod I knew it would be a, "Look at me!!" moment.

haha,we'll it wouldn't be fun if I didn't do that one last!

I thought really it would be 2 or more.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

http://vimeo.com/68587621

in fact before the heavy knock that is what it sounded like. It progressed to a knock heavy enough you could feel it in the clutch pedal.

[sergechronos]

Seriously though Chris, this makes me cry a little on the inside to see that.

[TurboSinceBirth]

I got the same white residue/powder running ethanol. It coated my turbine and hotside when I took things apart. I too figured it was normal with alcohol.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Tore engine down to bare block. No apparent signs of detonation. The piston that has the bad rod was slightly rough looking up top. You couldn't really feel it, but it was a little rough. I think it was from kissing the cylinder head. It doesn't look like detonation damage to me.

I didn't pull the pistons from the block, but no broken ring lands that I can tell so far. Cylinders aren't torn up bad, a little wear on the skirt area.

Heads look okay, no scoring on the cam journals. I don't think a ton of material got through the oil, no scratches anywhere.

Put the heads back on for transport and cut my pallet down to 24 by 24 and loaded her up. Pics later.

Well if anyone wants to bid!

Cost to Transport a 1 Pallet to Ronkonkoma (http://www.uship.com/shipment/1-Pallet/267289759/)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Would you guys get the cargo insurance? Maybe for $1500? The core on the heads would be a lot of they get lost or damaged.

[sergechronos]

Would you guys get the cargo insurance? Maybe for $1500? The core on the heads would be a lot of they get lost or damaged.

I'd totally offer to take it up to NY with me, but I'm afraid MO would require swinging a bit out of the way to grab it :p

I'd bolt the heads back to the block honestly, strap it all down and probably wrap it in cellophane (keep any external debris from getting in there). Bolt it all together, lay it on it's side using some foam and wood to level it out and cover it, and play it safe.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'd totally offer to take it up to NY with me, but I'm afraid MO would require swinging a bit out of the way to grab it :p

I'd bolt the heads back to the block honestly, strap it all down and probably wrap it in cellophane (keep any external debris from getting in there). Bolt it all together, lay it on it's side using some foam and wood to level it out and cover it, and play it safe.

Yeah, I snugged all the head bolts back in and wrapped it in plastic. Used some wood underneath to support by girdle. Also put some pig mat underneath it in case there is any liquid that gets shaken out during shipping. Ratchet strapped to pallet.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

rear:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_113189ao_O9Xv.JPG

front

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_11282VMM_0VjU.JPG

nice workspace loaned by my wife:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_112623E0_603Q.JPG

With the car out of the garage and the floor somewhat cleaned and hosed off it was a lot more fun to break the engine down.

she's all strapped up and I just have to wait for the uship auction to end or to get a bid I like. Really hoping they can get down to at least 350.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Might add another little strap for good measure and I have to find a place to put my oil cooler, but pretty much ready:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1132G8wF_5oau.JPG

[sergechronos]

Hmm..Wonder if you could fit it in the valley between the heads?

[JasonY]

Driver will be none to happy if he can't get a pallet jack under that pallet. Probably end up putting your pallet onto a full sized pallet so they can move it around easierr/quicker.

Jason

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

It is exactly the same as a 24" by 24" pallet, which is what I specified on the shipping website. The two ends you can't see are wide open.

[JasonY]

I get 24" wide pallets often at work...and they are all on a full size pallet, lol. Hopefully the driver isn't a whiner like the ones that deliver to me are. A normal sized pallet jack doesn't fit under a 24" pallet.

Jason

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

if he isn't smart enough to bring a pallet jack that has adjustable forks or built for 24" pallets when I specify it is a 24" pallet I don't know what to tell him. I'll have my engine hoist here anyway if necessary.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

if you guys look close you can actually see the combustion chamber shape on the middle rear cylinder, definitely was hitting the head.

[futurevr4man]

I wanted to see the rods...

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I guess you didn't watch the video where there is clearly one rod with a TON of play?

[futurevr4man]

I didn't. I wanted to see if it was bent though. If he didn't take the pistons out, he doesn't know.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'm trying to preserve as much evidence as possible so I don't blow this thing up again. I'll let you know what ray finds.

[futurevr4man]

Okeydokey

[Ninja Performance]

if you guys look close you can actually see the combustion chamber shape on the middle rear cylinder, definitely was hitting the head.

Yeah, seen that many times before.

-Chris

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_112623E0_603Q.JPG


Same table I used last time my motor was apart! :D

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

well its getting picked up today. freightquote.com ended up being the cheapest.

[CoopKill]

What they get ya for?


Sent from the Man Cave!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

$300, needed liftgate on both ends. next time I'll just use my hoist on this engine and save $60

still waiting on them, but they called and said they'd be here today.

[HilbillyHomeboy]

That's a fair price, IMO. Can't wait to see this thing back together! :)

Jeremy

[j2k4]

That's a fair price, IMO. Can't wait to see this thing back together! :)

Jeremy

x2 :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Engine is on the way. They didn't send a liftgate truck, so the driver and my friend hellaflush hoisted her in there by hand. Really wasn't hard, going to try to get that fee back...

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

wow, if it isn't good for anything else the IPS pan sure catches a lot of bearing material behind the trap doored section. It took about 30 minutes of actually hosing it out and alternating with brake clean and dish soap to finally get it clean. I'm going to run it through the dishwasher to be sure.

I'm concerned it will become a sludge trap.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

wow, believe it or not that really worked. Literally looks like new, I just dried it and wd-40'd it to keep it from rusting. It was pretty clean when I put it in there so I didn't ruin our dishwasher, but man if I had the space I'd put one in the garage to wash some really greasy parts.

[sergechronos]

They certainly do wonders, but definitely one of those cases where it's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission :D

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

nah, my wife's super cool, she didn't care. running the valve covers through right now, there was some bearing material in them as well.

[futurevr4man]

your wife is one of a kind. lucky guy, you are!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1136D001_MtdS.JPG

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

fuck you fel-pro:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_11415jW5_mUgj.JPG

[anyonebutme]

lol. i think they can get heavy fines for that.

[akotten]

Maybe the mold was made incorrectly? Who knows....lol

[RealMcCoy]

Those Asian countries all look alike..... :D

[Unlogic]

That photo is priceless. You should send it to them.

[Toni]

I stared at this pic last night and this morning I finally caught on after I zoomed in lol.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I was thinking that wrinkle paint would look really cool on the trans, but do you guys think it would raise the temperature much?

[fastfalcon94]

I'd be more worried about chipping it when trying to get it back in the car. Granted you are dropping motor/trans in all at once, but still. And I'm sure you would coat the entire thing at once? If it ever needed to be seperated for a rebuild it would crack up. A thin high heat paint may be a better option. I just cleaned mine up with some degreeser and scotch brite pad. It' s not that visible with all the intake/intercooler piping hiding it. You could delete your abs while your engine is out if you haven't already. I wish I did mine when my motor was out.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Not super worried about chips, they repair easily. My trans is pretty raunchy looking and you can see it from the top. I rebuilt it last year, so hopefully it won't have to come apart again soon, but if it doesn't I'm not super worried about it. You could paint a dirt floor with this wrinkle paint and it would look good. I think for now I'll keep abs on this one as it works okay.

Just more worried about hurting the transmissions heat transfer because this stuff is pretty thick.

[familyMAN]

I used some silver engine paint on mine. Looks good; like brand new aluminum.

[sergechronos]

I used some silver engine paint on mine. Looks good; like brand new aluminum.

Same here. Makes spotting any potential leaks on the bottom pretty easy, and you can wipe it down very easily with a rag to clean up any debris or whatever from the top. At the very least, looks better than it did before I painted it.