Tuning my DR750s on Chrome

[Greg E]

I rrrreally hope you dont run into any issues with this also Chris. Greg is very confident it can be resolved with a few key strokes though.

I wish I could have been there. Between ray and I that car would have been great with the ARC.

[familyMAN]

Do you have a tuning guide for knock sensor? Each engine will have its own "signature" depending on PTW clearance, type of pistons, stroke, etc. Would be wise for anyone running chrome and a non-OEM shortblock to tune the knock cal. In AEM, after syncing timing, a knock cal is one of the first things to do.

[futurevr4man]

The 3.5 is worth it for the sound alone, getting to hear two cars with the same exhausts, 1 a 3L and 1 and 3.5, the 3.5 sounds just boss as hell and the 3L sounds weak in comparison.

I will be very curious if you have the stock knock sensor calibration issues Todd is having with his car. Stroker is noisier than a 3L and we've yet to make any decent power with the car on the new engine. Makes around 400awhp/torque right now(which is slow as shit btw) drowned in fuel/meth to keep the engine quiet enough to keep the timing from getting yanked and making even less power(makes more but power just skydives when the timing gets pulled due to wha the ecu thinks is knock)

Jason

This is interesting for me to hear. I know it's not apples to apples comparing a 72 with 74 crank to a 74 with 75 crank, but it is non stock vs non stock.

My car is significantly more noisy (basing this strictly off the CEL on knock, not the raw voltage) at low RPMs. But only low RPM's. I can't get the thing to knock up top. I haven't tried pushing it yet though, for many reasons. Curious what the raw voltage looks like on mine. We need to start a thread up comparing knock sensor related readings

[Greg E]

Do you have a tuning guide for knock sensor? Each engine will have its own "signature" depending on PTW clearance, type of pistons, stroke, etc. Would be wise for anyone running chrome and a non-OEM shortblock to tune the knock cal. In AEM, after syncing timing, a knock cal is one of the first things to do.

I've been avoiding it because there are people out there who will destroy their engines and blame me for it. It's absolutely nothing like any stand alone out there and I didn't include ALL the variables in Chrome. Now that we have cars out there making some real power with the flash ECU, I'm wishing I would have included them now. Have you read about how the EVO knock sum calculation works on the SH7 ECUs? It's in Merlins Guide to Tuning an EVO.

[mb3000]

Greg, maybe you could give out the info on a need to know basis? I think that would be the best solution.

[familyMAN]

Do you really want people emailing you on each build? That seems like even more liability. Give the option, make a disclaimer and move on. No one is paying you to tune each engine you give away the software for. Seems like a huge headache and waste of your time answering email and PMs. What's worse a couple idiots blowing up their engine or respected members and tuners not being able to make any power on a modded engine?;)

[Greg E]

Do you really want people emailing you on each build? That seems like even more liability. Give the option, make a disclaimer and move on. No one is paying you to tune each engine you give away the software for. Seems like a huge headache and waste of your time answering email and PMs. What's worse a couple idiots blowing up their engine or respected members and tuners not being able to make any power on a modded engine?;)

At this point, I'm more concerned about getting results from my own hands on experience so I can be more qualified to guide everyone else. All the 450-500whp tunes I've done haven't needed much of any tweaking done to the tables as in this territory, no one runs pump gas anymore and the engine noise itself hasn't gotten severe enough to cause false sums. E85 cars can't even use the stock knock sensor anyway.

Everyone emails me anyway. :p

[futurevr4man]

1. I run pump gas, whore.

2. I don't email, I text you. <3

[Ray Pampena]

Ray, can you expand on what you have seen and what we should look out for on e85 plug temp? The suggested autolites are much colder than what other platforms are running in similar or greater hp range.

Is this small frame turbo specific (td04/05) because of intake temps and backpressure when cranked up or does it apply to larger frame turbo setups as well.

My understanding is preignition leads to catastrophic failure. Did you have to break some parts to find this info out?

Thanks in advance for any additional insight!!!

the autolite plugs i listed are on the super safe cold ond for high boost, hot cylinder temps and long pulls. ive been using the NGK number i listed and so far that has been good. if i plan on doing any top end runs ill switch to the autolites though. i found this out because my car would fall off at the end of 4th ONLY if i made a run from a stop. if i did 4th gear alone it was fine. the cylinder temps needed to be really up there for it to happen. i am certain that my 1/4 mile mph will pick up from 135 to probably 138 or so because of it.
when the car would fall over.. many times it would get some oil from the breathers.. so i knew something was going on. i did a freshen up on the engine over this winter and found the rod bushings on my china rods were all beat out.. so i upgraded to the olivers i sell. the pistons and rings were perfect.

when i put it back together, it did the same thing. only when id run though all 4 gears from a stop. i was planning on switching to the chroome ecu so i could pull timing out. then, i little light in my brain flickered.. if i could make a pull through 4th and be fine but couldnt do 1st through 4th.. it HAS to be lighting off before my spark so timing would do nothing. i switched to the cold plug and its fixed. car is now perfect.

on the subject of the 3.5 of Todds and knock... when we were tuning it.. i was on the phone with Greg and he was giving me knock settings to try. i tried them all.. going to extremes in each direction. for example.. if a number were 6 and he said move it up to 9.. i tried that. it still pulled timing so id try 90 instead and it still pulled timing. i tried that with all of the settings. so unless there are more settings somewhere, i dont know what else can be done. ive tuned many huge power cars and trust me when i say Todds knock noise was nothing compared to tuning a 900whp car with a stroker. i like the chrome ecu but so far i dont like the knock control. AEMs knock control is awesome.

[JasonY]

Take trades Ray? 3 grand worth of piggy backs for an AEM S2 and tune? lol

Jason

[familyMAN]

Thanks for the info Ray! I picked up a set of the cold autolites to try out when the car is back together. You run the gap as is on the short strap autolites?

[Ray Pampena]

Take trades Ray? 3 grand worth of piggy backs for an AEM S2 and tune? lol

Jason

haha i see all the arguments of AEM vs chrome and i stay out of them because its not cut and dry. chrome is perfect for 95 plus % of the builds here. both are tunable.. chrome is easier for the beginner.. the stock ecu is designed around the engine.. has the obd2 etc..

but, AEM has real decisive changes. you know what you are changing and what it does. it doesnt effect a bunch of other things. the logging is way better and the control over what you are doing is more solid. but, its harder to tune from scratch.. forget running it with a maf.. non obd2.. more expensive etc.

i tune both and they both have their place. many people in the arguments have only spent time with one and only poked around with the software of the other. my red 96 wont ever get an AEM but if i built my chameleon one again.. it would get an aem again. my.02

[Ray Pampena]

Thanks for the info Ray! I picked up a set of the cold autolites to try out when the car is back together. You run the gap as is on the short strap autolites?

i run them about .028" they are safer than the NGKs as far as pre ignition

[CoopKill]

What point (boost level/hp)would you suggest going to the autolites?

[TurboSinceBirth]

I found the non-projected tip #8 NGK plugs to work great with pre-ignition on E85. I got it real bad with the regular V-Power plugs. I wouldn't mind giving the Autolites a whirl even though I never wrap 4th out on a 1-4 pull.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Ray I pmed you Friday. I just need to know if that motor is on the same pallet I shipped and if they can pick it up Fri the 14th. I need to know soon or the freight company won't be able to until next week. Tried calling the shop.

Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

shit Friday the 14th!

[Ray Pampena]

On a 36x36 skid

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

is Fri the 14th okay for them to come?

[CoopKill]

http://wbom.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/red-heart.png

[Ray Pampena]

Yes sir!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Yes sir!

thanks ray, it is setup. you should have received the bill of lading in your email, it might have popped in the junk box like it did for me. should be from freightquote.com

[Ray Pampena]

got it

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

just a heads up, they forwarded a new BOL, they had to get a new number for some reason, everything else should be the same.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

snow delay, engine is getting picked up Tuesday. Had a pretty funny convo about oil with Ray.

In the meantime I decided to stop being such a tight ass bastard and picked up a new hydraulic tensioner and a new oem water pump. Luckily I sold some stuff to cover the costs. I'd like to get the gates race timing belt, but will have to stick with the standard one I have new already for now.

I decided to get the freight insurance. I don't know if it is a scam or not, but without it if your engine falls off the truck you get TEN CENTS A POUND for it.

Good news is the weather is going to be awesome towards the end of next week, so it should be fun working out in the garage!

I hope I can remember where all of these brackets and other random crap go on the engine. luckily rubber ducky racing is still up with good engine pics :)

As we are on page 27 of this thread, does everyone think the engine build should be a new thread?

[Jimvr4]

Yes, new thread and lots of pictures :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

sure can take some pics, have nice clean shop and a good camera :)

that reminds me I need some lights!

[Toni]

Clean shop and clean thread :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

back to a previous topic. How did Matt run his long stroke 3.54 liter (92mm pistons) engine on the stock ecu and not have issues with phantom knock?

Surely that thing was loud running the short skirt forged pistons and 1000AWHP

[Greg E]

back to a previous topic. How did Matt run his long stroke 3.54 liter (92mm pistons) engine on the stock ecu and not have issues with phantom knock?

Surely that thing was loud running the short skirt forged pistons and 1000AWHP

Probably unplugged the knock sensor.

Was a slow day at work yesterday so I asked a few of the high HP stock ECU EVO guys how they handled knock control. All three said the same thing. They disabled it...

[familyMAN]

Had a pretty funny convo about oil with Ray.



And??

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Probably unplugged the knock sensor.

Was a slow day at work yesterday so I asked a few of the high HP stock ECU EVO guys how they handled knock control. All three said the same thing. They disabled it...

I was considering putting teflon tape on the threads to dampen it a bit.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

And??

haha use your imagination.

[mb3000]

Unplugging the sensor gives you the 789 dance and pulls the shit out of timing...

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Unplugging the sensor gives you the 789 dance and pulls the shit out of timing...

yeah youd leave it plugged in, but unscrew it and zip tie it to the firewall or similar.

[Greg E]

I didn't include the tables to set knock timing retard and enrichment in chrome V2 but its looking more and more like they are needed for some of these high HP monsters.

[Greg E]

yeah youd leave it plugged in, but unscrew it and zip tie it to the firewall or similar.

Unplugging it gradually decreasing the octane value to 0 thus always using 100% of the low octane maps. I can see the advantages to this in a 1000whp car running a piggy back. :lol:

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I don't get why the knock gain settings didn't work, maybe something else was going on. I'm going to try things as is and see what mine does. My bottom end is slightly different, so who knows.

[Greg E]

I don't get why the knock gain settings didn't work, maybe something else was going on. I'm going to try things as is and see what mine does. My bottom end is slightly different, so who knows.

That's a long story for another thread.

The short version is HP = noise. There comes a point when the noise becomes so great that it over powers the range that the stock sensor can hear.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Does anyone know do the strokers come with that dowel pin in the crank?

[familyMAN]

Almost positive no dowel.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

well I hate to randomly install one and throw the balance off.

[Ray Pampena]

no dowel

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

no dowel

I guess you don't bother running them?