Tuning my DR750s on Chrome

[Jimvr4]

Yup, I used my high temp silver and did the transmission. I then decided to separate the mid case and there was no problem with chipping. Pics are in my thread and yes it looks a ton better than just cleaned.

[Toni]

I ended up going with eastwood's aluma blast paint. Worked very well. It will still get dirty no matter what you do.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

hmm, some strange info from blackstone labs:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/files/95_STEALTH_TT-061613.pdf

Looks like fuel contamination was not an issue at all and the oil did not break down. The strange thing is they detected elements of coolant. I didn't see any evidence of coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant. I also didn't see any headgasket damage that was obvious. The garage wasn't the cleanest place in the world when I drained that oil out of the oil cooler into the sample container, so it is possible some antifreeze got in there, but it makes you think.

I'm glad that the fuel content was low.

[R/T93]

Damn I would have expected to see a lot more copper and lead. Always good to see a proper report put to good use though.

[Jimvr4]

Send Ray the report too!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

well, thankfully the engine made it to ray/steve's today.

I'm going to have some time, so I may as well clean some stuff up.

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_15593Gp2_yxXz.JPG

that is after 2 entire cans of brake clean and a scotchbrite pad. here's after paint:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1567W8Ww_E504.JPG

Good call on the aluminum color, looks good. If it gets scratched the bare aluminum won't stand out like a sore thumb. good improvement for $10 and 30 minutes of time.

here is my suicidal rig to keep the weight off the hydraulic ram while the paint dried all day (I certainly would not get under something like this :) )

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1562WtWV_z0Mw.JPG

Coating some other small things later tonight.

[CoopKill]

Now I feel guilty for not dressing up the trans... :sad:

Looks great!

[sergechronos]

Now I feel guilty for not dressing up the trans... :sad:


This is why you can't have nice things :p But you can always add it to the list of things to do next time. I keep a list of mods and such that I've seen that I plan to do down the road.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Watch this video at about 3:50 a pull starts:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-daKIt5RbU

See the "mis" around 3:56. Apparently later this car munched up its rod bearings. It was running too rich on e85 at that point the "mis" occurs. It looks like if you run it rich at all where it does that it can be pre-ignition and pound your bearings out.

If you ever run into that when tuning e85 and you are even anywhere in the 10s afr lean it out before you blow it up. If you run into that a couple times I'd think about dropping the pan, at least on a stock block.

I never realized running below 11:0 afr on e85 is so dangerous...

A quote from speed talk about the car:

Re: Pre-Ignition on E85?

Postby dieselgeek » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:58 pm

SWR wrote:Anyone else had that happen? Completely melted the top of the piston, not a sound so no knock. 2JZ-GTE, sixth cyl, cause is found, just curious to know if anyone else has had this happen?



YEs, on a 2JZ up here, *waaay* too rich on the WOT tune, the engine would hang on the chassis dyno just like valve float on an SBC - found out later that it beat the bearings out, just like detonation. THe only thing I could find REALLY wrong with the tuneup he was running, was that it was far too rich under WOT/boost. We cleaned that up, and his next motor has had zero problems.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

my mistake he could actually be shifting there, but it did have that problem at times.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Okay to summarize, he is what I think happened.

1)I had what I believe was a lean misfire around 4000 and 20-22 PSI. The wideband read lean.
2)I added fuel there AND gapped the plugs down.
3)Misfire seemed cured
4)ran into the misfire doing full 3rd gear pulls.
5)reduced boost
6)misfire gone, but was running mid 10s afr around 4000-4500.
7)leaned it out
8)made decent power
9)blew up the next day
10)???
11)anti profit?

So, what really happened is it was a rich misfire I misread by the lean wideband, which was caused by a misfire. I made it richer, but gapped the plugs down and the ignition was strong enough to fight it, causing unknown to me pre-ignition, beating out the bearings. By the time the tune was fixed the damage was done. If I had recognized things for what they were I could've fixed the tune and replaced the bearings and probably been okay.

All of this was amplified by the old stock shotblock making a lot of low end torque IMHO and the fact that e85 is bad for pre-ignition.

[green-lantern]

hmm, some strange info from blackstone labs:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/files/95_STEALTH_TT-061613.pdf

Looks like fuel contamination was not an issue at all and the oil did not break down. The strange thing is they detected elements of coolant. I didn't see any evidence of coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant. I also didn't see any headgasket damage that was obvious. The garage wasn't the cleanest place in the world when I drained that oil out of the oil cooler into the sample container, so it is possible some antifreeze got in there, but it makes you think.

I'm glad that the fuel content was low.

Have you had the head lift fix done? From what I understand they can leak and you pretty much don't even know it except for maybe an abnormal amount of coolant in the overflow bottle. The metal gaskets can't help much when trying to chase down a small leak ether.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Have you had the head lift fix done? From what I understand they can leak and you pretty much don't even know it except for maybe an abnormal amount of coolant in the overflow bottle. The metal gaskets can't help much when trying to chase down a small leak ether.

no, waiting to hear back from ray on things and when he has a chance I'll ask him if I should do it while the heads are there.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

All of that still doesn't explain why my car ran so bad on the surface discharge plugs, so I am also not ruling out something wrong with the ignition system.

[green-lantern]

no, waiting to hear back from ray on things and when he has a chance I'll ask him if I should do it while the heads are there.

If the heads are up there I'd definitely do it.

[familyMAN]

Running that rich on e85 contaminates the oil very quickly as well which could cause abnormally fast bearing wear.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Running that rich on e85 contaminates the oil very quickly as well which could cause abnormally fast bearing wear.

blackstore report says < .5% fuel contamination. was not the problem in my particular case.

[CoopKill]

Nice to have a definitive answer.

This could also shed light on others that have had issues such as Todd's car. Even though he was spraying 1000cc water/meth vs e85, would it not stand to reason that if rich in the same area it could cause preignition? Is water/meth susceptible to the same preignition as e85?

What makes sense to me is stressing the stock internals with the amount of torque would most likely of been fine, but with the addition of such a violent event this pushed them over the edge. There have/are others making similar/more on stock internals with no catastrophe, are there not?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Really a theory still, but it is the best I have got. I would assume Todd's car did something similar, which explains the uselessness of the knock sensor at that point. With the alcohol the pistons run cooler, so it just doesn't always break ring lands like we are used to. The more alcohol the more you are just shifting the load from the pistons to the bearings.

Matt and I am sure some others has made 600 torque on a stock shortblock, but I am sure that was under a near perfect tune and normal race gas. Even at only 500 torque we are at near 80% of the torque people have made with the stock block, like you said it wouldn't take a lot to push it over the edge at that point.

I wouldn't be surprised if something similar caused familyman's stock 6G74 explosion he had.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I seriously never realized that misfires were so hard on bearings, it just isn't talked about a lot and I'm sure not a pro at this. I hope someone can avoid this problem in the future due to some of the info here.

I think some of the stuff that is super obvious to pro tuners is so obvious to them they just don't talk about it or keep it as a trade secret. I can't really blame them either way.

That is one thing I really enjoyed about Trevor's build(s). You got to see every failure and the eventually fix. I think there are a lot more blown up shortblocks than people talk about generally.

[CoopKill]

I am glued to this tightly. I have learned already. (Thanks!) Whether this is as you theorize, or not there is much info that applies to what I am doing.

[guido1205us]

Yes, thank you very much for sharing. I've been watching all DR750 builds closely as I do want to follow suit without a broken engine.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

You know what sucks? I've had my billet t-case on and of 4-5, maybe 6 times between everything and haven't launched it once :(

clutch even looks like new.

[familyMAN]

blackstore report says < .5% fuel contamination. was not the problem in my particular case.

Understood. More cautionary for those following along and making the switch to e85. It's great fuel but there are things to look out for.

I sent my injectors back to FIC for inspection last week. Two had filters that were very clogged (one had 40% reduced flow!!) and two needed cleaning. If I didn't have a wideband on each bank logged and noticed the rear was 5-7% lean, I may have not caught it in time. Pulled rear plugs to investigate and one was almost clean. FIC attributes it to the low mileage since my conversion to e85 still cleaning out my fuel tank and noticed no other issues with injectors. Scary!!

[familyMAN]

I wouldn't be surprised if something similar caused familyman's stock 6G74 explosion he had.

I do not agree. My rod bearings showed no detonation/pre-ignition wear. 74 rods don't like 500awtq;) (2.5 x stock tq). I have now fixed the "missing" with a different coil pack along with the DLI. Could the severe spark blowout have added extra stress to rods, Yes...did I have pre-ignition from being too rich...No.

[Ray Pampena]

Hey Chris, i got your engine.. ill get it apart next week. i tried the surface fire plugs on my car and it would missfire badly under boost until it was heated up real well. pretty strange. once warmed up they ran pretty well.
overall i think the copper standard type plugs run better but they dont seem to last long at all. the surface plugs probably last longer

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Hey Chris, i got your engine.. ill get it apart next week. i tried the surface fire plugs on my car and it would missfire badly under boost until it was heated up real well. pretty strange. once warmed up they ran pretty well.
overall i think the copper standard type plugs run better but they dont seem to last long at all. the surface plugs probably last longer

maybe that was the issue, I pretty much got it out on the road in the morning, it ran like shit and I never heated it up really before trying again.

Do you think I should do the headlift fix? Glad you got the engine okay, I hope they brought a liftgate on your end like they were supposed to.

Thanks again

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Understood. More cautionary for those following along and making the switch to e85. It's great fuel but there are things to look out for.

I sent my injectors back to FIC for inspection last week. Two had filters that were very clogged (one had 40% reduced flow!!) and two needed cleaning. If I didn't have a wideband on each bank logged and noticed the rear was 5-7% lean, I may have not caught it in time. Pulled rear plugs to investigate and one was almost clean. FIC attributes it to the low mileage since my conversion to e85 still cleaning out my fuel tank and noticed no other issues with injectors. Scary!!

That is scary, all my plugs looked basically identical, but I guess it wouldn't be a horrible idea to get them flow checked. FIC wants about $100 a set with new seals, right?

[Ray Pampena]

the plugs may even be a cylinder temp thing more than coolant alone. the first hit the car would break up but after that it would be clean. it only does that with those plugs

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

mine would even miss just getting into like 2 psi

[familyMAN]

I think it's $20 each for cleaning and flow testing. Witchhunter was half that if I recall but I wanted FIC to check them out. Oddly I have gone from 1350 originally flow testing to 1400ish each now.

[CoopKill]

I think it's $20 each for cleaning and flow testing. Witchhunter was half that if I recall but I wanted FIC to check them out. Oddly I have gone from 1350 originally flow testing to 1400ish each now.

Is he still doing the cleaning? I thought he went a different path in life, and stopped?

[familyMAN]

No idea but mine were cleaned at witchhunter about a year ago.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

oh I think it just hit me where the silicon came from. I just put that oil pan on and rtv'ed it. IIRC I did an immediate oil change, but I'm sure that didn't catch everything.

I also had to re-seal the front turbo drain with rtv later on.

[TurboSinceBirth]

Nice to have a definitive answer.

This could also shed light on others that have had issues such as Todd's car. Even though he was spraying 1000cc water/meth vs e85, would it not stand to reason that if rich in the same area it could cause preignition? Is water/meth susceptible to the same preignition as e85?

What makes sense to me is stressing the stock internals with the amount of torque would most likely of been fine, but with the addition of such a violent event this pushed them over the edge. There have/are others making similar/more on stock internals with no catastrophe, are there not?

His was most definitely timing advance. Had he done it on a flashed ecu or AEM I would say otherwise. Hitting 27 psi of boost under 3k rpms where the 660cc injectors aren't spraying much due to the 600+ccs of meth going crazy full out you can see where his timing would have gone through the roof. High timing and huge torque at that low of rpm due to super quick spool ended up in detonation killing the pistons. Meth is a fuel replacement not just a power adder. Whatever you add with the meth you have to dial back the injectors in general. Jason even said the failure was timing related. Now Todd's going with a flashed ecu and sticking to race gas only. The cylinder location of the most damage on Todd's car shows our bad intake manifold distribution too. It's pretty easy to see how piggybacks don't like low IDCs. Read Trevor's thread on selecting injectors and you'll see how it can shift you to a different side of the map easily.

[gaylantvr4]

Watch this video at about 3:50 a pull starts:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-daKIt5RbU

See the "mis" around 3:56. Apparently later this car munched up its rod bearings. It was running too rich on e85 at that point the "mis" occurs. It looks like if you run it rich at all where it does that it can be pre-ignition and pound your bearings out.

If you ever run into that when tuning e85 and you are even anywhere in the 10s afr lean it out before you blow it up. If you run into that a couple times I'd think about dropping the pan, at least on a stock block.

I never realized running below 11:0 afr on e85 is so dangerous...

A quote from speed talk about the car:

Re: Pre-Ignition on E85?

Postby dieselgeek » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:58 pm

SWR wrote:Anyone else had that happen? Completely melted the top of the piston, not a sound so no knock. 2JZ-GTE, sixth cyl, cause is found, just curious to know if anyone else has had this happen?



YEs, on a 2JZ up here, *waaay* too rich on the WOT tune, the engine would hang on the chassis dyno just like valve float on an SBC - found out later that it beat the bearings out, just like detonation. THe only thing I could find REALLY wrong with the tuneup he was running, was that it was far too rich under WOT/boost. We cleaned that up, and his next motor has had zero problems.

This is my good friend brians car. His problem was with the oil getting to hot because of a shitty converter. He is waiting on a neal chance converter I will ask tomarrow to make sure this is correct

[J. Fast]

blackstore report says < .5% fuel contamination. was not the problem in my particular case.
With the blackstone analysis is fair to say the failure was likely due to oil starvation, or assembly error. You missed something on the rebuild man. It happens a lot, dont beat yourself up about it.

[Jimvr4]

Failure to properly torque that one rod cap and then it worked itself loose and destroyed the bearing??

[JasonY]

The engine in this stealth was original, the rebuilt one stayed in his old car.

Jason

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

The engine in this stealth was original, the rebuilt one stayed in his old car.

Jason

thanks, that is true.

The only thing I did to this motor wad replace the rod bearings, even though they looked fine. They spec'ed out at .0015. As best as I can tell the engine had never been apart.

Anything is possible, but all that report says at the moment is the oil wasn't broken down or full of fuel.

We should know what there is to know soon.

Thanks

Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Board Express

[RealMcCoy]

Another thing we don't want to forget, is just how much fuel volume is being shoved in the cylinder if you run it that rich... 10.0 on the wideband gauge is actually in the mid 6's by mass...

Do that on a methanol motor and you'd probably hydraulic it when it misfired... (you'd be in the low 4's by mass)

Edit: And before some internet expert jumps all over it(again), yes, I know the correct term is "hydro-lock"... I've be using that slang term for 30 years, and it's not likely I'll stop any time soon.. :D

[donniekak]

If a hydro lock situation caused this, the rod should also be bent. I would check all the rods for straightness.
This is out of a 4g63 running a 16g on e85, well below the 750whp these stock parts have been proven to handle. Possible misfire hydro lock situation. Pistons were in mint condition, and no plug spatter.
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp170/donniekak/IMG_20110312_200443.jpg (http://s408.photobucket.com/user/donniekak/media/IMG_20110312_200443.jpg.html)

[RealMcCoy]

I never meant to imply that this failure was hydrolock... We're pretty sure from his initial inspection that the rods aren't bent. I was just pointing out that strange things can happen when you are involving such a high ratio of fuel mass.

I'm sure Ray will come up with a viable theory soon... It will be interesting to see what he has to say on this one.

[sergechronos]

I'm sure Ray will come up with a viable theory soon...

http://i.imgur.com/HkPOzEH.jpg

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Lol

Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Board Express

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

ok, I think we have solved the sodium and silicon mystery. I talked with some very helpful reps at blackstone:

" Hi, Chris. Thanks for the update. RTV is a silicone-based sealer, so that
> could account for the silicon level, although we don't think that has
> anything to do with the sodium. That's not something we normally see with
> RTV sealers -- it's either coolant contamination, or possibly a residual
> additive from a previously used type of oil (it's not used in Mobil 1).
>
> If the silicon is from the RTV, we'd expect the silicon level to drop with
> each oil change after the pan was replaced until it gets back down to a
> normal level. Watching the trends of silicon and sodium would tell us if
> these were coming from coolant or some other source.
>
> Hope that helps. Let me know if there's anything else we can do for you.
> Thanks!

Thanks" - Blackstone Rep

"The car ran on Valvoline before I purchased it. Does that contain sodium?" = Me

"Hi, Chris. Yep, Valvoline does use sodium in most of their formulations -- usually anywhere from 250-350 ppm of it. So if this was just the second or third oil change on Mobil 1, this level of sodium could still be residual. It takes a few oil changes for it to go away completely, since up to 10%-20% of the old oil can remain in the engine when the oil is changed.

Thanks!" - blackstone rep

[Greg E]

I didn't know that!! Thanks for the info. :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I didn't know that!! Thanks for the info. :)

I had no idea also, it just hit me that I had a huge stack of valvoline receipts with the car and some quick research indicated they may contain sodium, so I double checked with blackstone.

As far as updates, my oil pump, gaskets, and etc came in from cherry hill today. Just waiting on one feedline that was back-ordered from them. Decided to go with a new headbolt set just in case as well.

I also ordered a new HKS DLI to be safe. I'm going to test the coil packs a little later, but I'm strongly considering replacing those as well.

What about the cam and crank sensors? They look "ok" and the wires aren't frayed or anything. It seems by their nature they would not be a wear item, but anyone have other opinions? I don't want to replace things needlessly, but it is a lot easier to start with 100% known good components to make sure things go smoothly.

Then again I do not have infinite money!

[Greg E]

I'm still holding strong to my theory that a stock motor just flat out can't handle the torque produced from such a quick spooling turbo. I don't see any reason to go replacing stuff which you know already works.

Cam and CAS haul sensors don't even touch. It's just a blade that passes thru a magnetic field and nothing more. It's a sensor that either works or doesn't. Like being pregnant.

[CoopKill]

No indication from any of your logs of other issues?

[familyMAN]

I'm still holding strong to my theory that a stock motor just flat out can't handle the torque produced from such a quick spooling turbo. I don't see any reason to go replacing stuff which you know already works.

Stock or near stock timing maps contributing as well? Big timing, big boost, big tq at 3500....no knock because most are running e85 or meth.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

No indication from any of your logs of other issues?

nothing that I ever saw

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'm still holding strong to my theory that a stock motor just flat out can't handle the torque produced from such a quick spooling turbo. I don't see any reason to go replacing stuff which you know already works.

Cam and CAS haul sensors don't even touch. It's just a blade that passes thru a magnetic field and nothing more. It's a sensor that either works or doesn't. Like being pregnant.

Thanks for the info, will just clean the sensors with some electronics cleaner to get any filings off of them and go with them.

I hope you are right about the failure.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Well, don't let me near any cylinder heads anytime soon, but I think it is pretty decent for an exhaust manifold:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1883jecS_8HUv.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1880c6VD_ABgZ.JPG

[TurboSinceBirth]

Is it the front header that if you port you have to weld around the outside runners or is that the rear? I can't remember. One of them is thin enough you have to.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Is it the front header that if you port you have to weld around the outside runners or is that the rear? I can't remember. One of them is thin enough you have to.

Yes, it is the front. The rear is quite thick, you can port it to the point it should be plenty large for TD04 power.

My front is welded and ported already, I picked that up last year. It is an improvement, but it can't be helped nearly as much as the rear. Probably sucking up 15 horse at the 600AWHP level.

[familyMAN]

Nice work on that manifold. I had to do the same to my 3sx td05 kit. Could probably use a little more work but its a HUGE improvement over how they sell it. Dremel was not the right tool for quick work:(. Hope you had better tools suited for the job.

[mb3000]

I had no idea also, it just hit me that I had a huge stack of valvoline receipts with the car and some quick research indicated they may contain sodium, so I double checked with blackstone.

As far as updates, my oil pump, gaskets, and etc came in from cherry hill today. Just waiting on one feedline that was back-ordered from them. Decided to go with a new headbolt set just in case as well.

I also ordered a new HKS DLI to be safe. I'm going to test the coil packs a little later, but I'm strongly considering replacing those as well.

What about the cam and crank sensors? They look "ok" and the wires aren't frayed or anything. It seems by their nature they would not be a wear item, but anyone have other opinions? I don't want to replace things needlessly, but it is a lot easier to start with 100% known good components to make sure things go smoothly.

Then again I do not have infinite money!

Rear turbo oil feed line?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Rear turbo oil feed line?

Yeah I think so, the shorter one came in the first shipment. He said it would just be a couple weeks. They sent a bunch of swag this time :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Nice work on that manifold. I had to do the same to my 3sx td05 kit. Could probably use a little more work but its a HUGE improvement over how they sell it. Dremel was not the right tool for quick work:(. Hope you had better tools suited for the job.

Luckily I did have a carbide burr and my die grinder for the rough work. The burr is getting pretty worn, but it ate it pretty good. After that I used a dremel with cartridge roll in 60 grit, then switched to 120 grit to smooth out the grinding. Then I switched to 320 just taped to the carbide burr on my die grinding as a makeshift flap wheel and then switched to 800 with wd-40.

I cleaned both manifolds a TON. I noticed a little bit of weld slag in the front manifold and tried to reach what I could. All in all I probably have 3-4 hours in it. Sounds like a lot, but things take a while if you are careful and detailed. It must have taken over an hour to get the front one clean enough, I kept finding filings around the bends and it is pretty hard to get rags showed through it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

well nothing really new to report. Just been cleaning and painting. I tested the coils and they ohm out perfect, so that's some money saved.

[donniekak]

Heat them up, and then test them. Lots of times, coils only have issues when warm.

[Jimvr4]

That's a very good suggestion!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Heat them up, and then test them. Lots of times, coils only have issues when warm.

A good idea. I heated them with my heatgun until they were just a little too hot to keep a finger on.

High Side

Cold

Coil 1-4 12770
Coil 2-5 12980
Coil 3-6 12810

Hot

Coil 1-4 13500
Coil 2-5 13820
Coil 3-6 13500

Low Side

Cold

Coil 1-4 ~.7
Coil 2-5 ~.8
Coil 3-5 ~.7

Hot
Coil 1-4 ~.7
Coil 2-5 ~.9
Coil 3-5 ~.8

My confidence in the lower numbers is less just because I couldn't find my "good" meter and had to use my really cheap one.

Looks okay to me.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Anyone have any experience with turbo blankets?

Subaru Turbo Blanket Turbo Heat Shield Black High Temperature Blanket | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Subaru-Turbo-Blanket-Turbo-Heat-Shield-Black-High-Temperature-Blanket-/111083373663?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19dd15c45f&vxp=mtr)

In theory response would be improved and certainly underhood temps would be less.

[mb3000]

Yeah I think so, the shorter one came in the first shipment. He said it would just be a couple weeks. They sent a bunch of swag this time :)

:lol: I'm waiting on the same thing.

[HilbillyHomeboy]

Anyone have any experience with turbo blankets?

Subaru Turbo Blanket Turbo Heat Shield Black High Temperature Blanket | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Subaru-Turbo-Blanket-Turbo-Heat-Shield-Black-High-Temperature-Blanket-/111083373663?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19dd15c45f&vxp=mtr)

In theory response would be improved and certainly underhood temps would be less.

Used one with my GT42. Kind of had to with a turbo that size; it puts out a ton of heat. The blanket did work very well.

Jeremy

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Just lowering timing a bit more and smoothing a few spots:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/new_timing_mapNu1E_Vmgs.png

It is going to be time consuming to verify this is good. Will have to do a vd plot every PSI or so to see where it wants more timing. On the other hand I can leave a little on the table at lower levels and spend the most timing tuning my max boost. Can also use that data to interpolate a bit.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Maybe this is a waste of time, but it is free and I have the time. If any of you have looked at the ports in the stock oil filter housing they are just horrible. VERY rough casting inside. I tried to smooth them out as far as I could get in. Not trying to make the ports bigger, just trying to smooth them out. I hope it goes without saying you need to clean this thoroughly when done.

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_1895WKxL_78hH.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_18972G6J_5Zty.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/IMG_189891vS_vo2O.JPG

Also, be sure to pull the oil cooler thermostat to clean out there too.

[Autochef]

Very good idea. When I did my Turbo conversion I noticed how bad the housing was but went ahead and installed it anyway. After a few months I couldn't stop thinking about it, so I pulled it back out and smoothed it out. Peace of mind

[95gto]

Anyone have any experience with turbo blankets?

Subaru Turbo Blanket Turbo Heat Shield Black High Temperature Blanket | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Subaru-Turbo-Blanket-Turbo-Heat-Shield-Black-High-Temperature-Blanket-/111083373663?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19dd15c45f&vxp=mtr)

In theory response would be improved and certainly underhood temps would be less.

If you look at the different types of blankets that are out there you will see that the TD04 version is a thin wrap style blanket while the more common ones are a slip on type that are at least twice as thick. I think you might get better results by using additional heat wrap on the stock heat shields.

[fastfalcon94]

On my subaru I used some unniversal turbo wrap. I think I got it from rallysportdirect.com. There is a blanket material kind of like exhaust wrap, then a special foil material that goes over that. Then there is a stainless steel wire and you kind of sew it onto your turbo. I did all that, then put a cobb heatshield over it. After driving the car hard I can touch the heat shield, or wrap foil material without burning my hand. It works really well. I kind of wish I did something simliar to my vr4, but I'm not pulling the turbos back out now.

pics

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/subybuild/69.jpg

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa327/fastfalcon94/subybuild/70.jpg

[vTaKwiTHsLiCkS]

Wow. I haven't been on the forums in months and was excited as heck to see this thread as I am also a DR750 2nd gen Stealth owner.

That sucks to read man. Hope all goes well when you get it back from Ray. I ordered a Pampena block awhile back. Still waiting for it though.

I have question for some of you DR750 owners.. Who's running the original ones with TiAL exhaust wheels and who's running the redesigned ones that Matt has available now? For the ones who are not running the TiAL version, are you guys getting the surge issue?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Ray tore the engine the rest of the way down today and it looks like the mains were beat up. Good chance the crank is bad. Probably a tune issue. I do not know why exactly, but if you are running e85 and the stock timing map I would suggest some caution.

Going to pull some more timing in the load areas I was hitting and a little more way up top. I'll add a degree in at a time after that and compare dyno charts to be sure it is making decent gains.

If I can make it work I'm going to have him build a 3.5. Other details about the setup may change as well, but I am still on the fence about some things.

[Ninja Performance]

You should be able to run MORE timing than stock on E85, not less. I run ridiculous timing on mine and beat on it and have never had any bearing issues. Ever.

-Chris

[familyMAN]

You should be able to run MORE timing than stock on E85, not less. I run ridiculous timing on mine and beat on it and have never had any bearing issues. Ever.

-Chris

It is common for DSMs and evo's to pull timing at peak tq on e85 but able to run more up top. (Sometimes a lot more up top). The big power supra's on e85 timing I have seen posted are near or at single digits at peak tq.

Not every setup is the same. Chris, your peak tq is at a dramatically different rpm than a dr750 car. Plus E95 made a big difference in your power levels. What does the extra 10% of ethanol plus 5% methanol, replacing 87 octane, do to the burn rate and timing needs? You should not compare you're setup to a td04 e85 car.

[Ninja Performance]

That's true.

-Chris

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Best I can figure the timing is probably high at 3500 to 4000 where that big early spool torque comes in. Better safe that sorry, but I do appreciate the input for sure.



Could also just be the mains were wiped out before I bought it.


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[HilbillyHomeboy]

The mains rarely get pounded unless there is a violent onset of torque...which your 750's easily provide for. It could've already been hurt, but I'm leaning on those 750's making so much tq, so fast, that it's just too much for the stock bits to take. Ray will get you straightened up.

Jeremy

[Ninja Performance]

silly DR750s

-Chris

[sergechronos]

Best I can figure the timing is probably high at 3500 to 4000 where that big early spool torque comes in. Better safe that sorry, but I do appreciate the input for sure.



Could also just be the mains were wiped out before I bought it.


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Probably a combo between the mains and the tune. As I recall, didn't the stock timing map have pretty sharp jumps around the 3k-4k area? How many miles did the motor/mains have before this? I remember you had replaced bearings at some point.

Doesn't the ECU advance or retard timing based on knock count? If you had tuned for 93 (to the point of little to no knock in that range anyhow), then swapped E85 in where it might advance timing based on not having knock, it could've pushed it over the edge right at the point the 750s start coming on.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

97k, stock mains.

93 tune was so safe it couldn't be safer. The ecu won't advance timing beyound what is in the map, only retard based on the octane value which is affected by knock.

With the stroker I'll probably start out pulling about 4 degrees out of that map I previously pulled timing out of. The strokers or other bigger displacement engines will need less timing. I don't fully understand why, but with the stroker I know there is a greater window of crankshaft rotation for problems to happen from too much timing. Your pulling in more air and fuel too, so it would need less timing from that.

The car may be a dog for a while, but at least I should be safe.

[familyMAN]

Won't necessarily be a dog. My 3.5 e85 had only 5* timing at peak tq with 500awtq and only 15-16psi. Stroker and ethanol won't need a ton of timing to make it fun. Especially since you'll turn up the boost with a built motor.

[TurboSinceBirth]

It does sound like the early V10 like torque curve is too much stress for the internals to handle. My billets spooled about 500 rpms later and I had no issues at 28-32 psi beating out mains. I did have issues with knock and misfiring around 24 psi before I got it sorted out. I'm curious what my timing looks like compared to stock and also at peak tq since something was working. I want to compare it before swapping chrome in since piggybacks advance timing.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Hopefully plenty conservative for the bigger motor:

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/2013Tuning/3.5_timingn66i_vju8.png

[donniekak]

That map needs a lot of work. It's not very smooth, with 5* jumps in only 500 rpms. Also the 3000-3500 rpm areas under higher boost look a little high to be a conservative map.

To just start from scratch on a high torque setup I like to start at less than 5* around 20 psi, and even less for more boost at the onset of full boost. I then ramp to around 10* at the limiter at 20 psi, and about 8 at full load on the table. Of course it gets a lot higher after tuning, but I like to start out with a timing map that isn't going to harm anything.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Not really an issue to smooth the map out, I just don't see why I need to end up basically rewriting the timing map that has worked for so many cars. I'm not trying to be stubborn here, I just feel the more I change the more that can be wrong.

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/XPS15z/3.5_timing_lower92V5_Xrf3.png

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Well, it has been a while since I've posted an update, but things are moving.

The DR750s have been rebuild and are on the way back from DR.

My pistons are done and they are ready to machine my stroker crank, but scott merkle was inspecting it and found it is not std size and the journals have been welded, so it is not safe to use. I'm working with a few others trying to find a crank so they can finish up the block. Ray's going to rebuild the heads as well. Just a stock rebuild.

I do have a big decision to make though. A month back or so I came across a good deal on an IPS 16G kit. I'd considered running that since they seem such a good fit for the 3.5, but I've been on the fence this whole time.

The DR750 powerband will be quite a bit better and the 16s will only make about 50 more horsepower all things being equal. I'd originally really thought about it so I can run some of the bigger DSM hybrid turbos, but the more I think about it the more I realize that I probably cannot support anything over 600. I don't mean I can't put it together, tune it, or have most of the hardware for it. I mean the car at 700+ levels is just going to be so much more unreliable and at that level even the best parts, such as clutches can fail.

Still haven't made my mind up fully though. The ips kit has low mile turbos I've ported and forge wastegates. I picked up some new oil lines all around and new fasteners, so the only thing that would need mods would be the intercooler piping.

It sure is simple to put everything back together the way it was though and it should put a smile on my face making 15 PSI at 2500 rpm.

[familyMAN]

I'd keep it simple for now and enjoy. If you want to go bigger, there are always 16g kit's available or matt can cut you a deal on a t3 kit. Anyway, bet those little 750's could crank out 700awtq on e85 with the 3.5 at some crazy low rpm.

[TurboSinceBirth]

I guess you have to decide if you want simplicity at an extremely high cost or something a little harder to install but at a much smaller cost. If anything goes wrong again DR-750s will be very expensive to rebuild yet bolt-on TD04s are simple. With the TD05s you can get billet 16G, 18G, 20G, 25G, 60-1, etc all fairly cheap $2k a set or sometimes less plus it's easy to swap a CHRA unit out readily available. You can go up from there too with some DSM hybrid turbos.

I definitely don't think that the 750s are too small for a 3.5L though. Yes the TD04 turbine is very tiny and restrictive. The 9 blade TD05HL turbine helps a great deal though and even with the extra 0.5L displacement I don't perceive the turbos choking off the motor. Todd made awesome power at 14 psi on the 3.5L. Matt firmly believes his stock intercoolers were a much bigger restriction on the 3.5L dyno than the 750s ever would be. The next question is whether or not you can safely get the car tuned. Supposedly Todd's 3.5L DR-750 car wiped out the main bearings from too early of torque while on Ray's dyno. Hopefully someone will clear it up but that's what was alluded to by Jason. I have no idea how simple or easy it will be to tune it out but it definitely sounds like you need to be careful. It definitely has me spooked to see that happening on a built motor with Ray tuning a flashed ecu which he should have adequate enough experience with by now having gone through multiple cars.

With that in mind I'd almost venture to say that going TD05s may be a much safer and reliable approach. There's plenty of successful 3.5L E16G setups and the powerband is nearly the same as a 3.0L DR-750 setup. When Jrink was testing the FP HTA68s and MTC turbos he made even more power shifted to the left than 16Gs so there's still more room to go if the powerband isn't good enough. Since you already have the TD05 parts cutting the intercooler hotside ends is easy for j-pipes and it would be a no-brainer for me to put the 16Gs in. It will still be just as reliable and I don't see you going much past 600AWHP because the car definitely sees exponentially greater downtime.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oueT6uLpIHU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

What do you think? 500AWTQ at 3400 rpms or 700AWTQ at 4000 rpms? :D Looks awesome to me. Lol. Eric hit 500AWTQ on Ray's dyno with 750s also at 3400 rpms and 600 at 4k. Matt with the 3.5L and 750s made 500AWTQ at 3400 rpms also and his peak 624AWTQ was at 4100 rpms. I bet the stock intercoolers really held him back plus that was at 21 psi where they're just as efficient as DR-650s. Ray's built 3.0L DR-750 96 VR-4 made similar tq numbers much later on than any of the other mentioned cars probably due to the cams mostly and also the plethora of stock parts. It's a sleeper for sure though. :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

both of you raise good points and they are pretty much exactly what's been rolling around in my head for the last month.

I'm not going to get into it, but that is not exactly what I heard regarding Todd's setup.

I did talk to ray today and explained what I might do regarding the 750s and he didn't seem concerned, but it is always on my mind. The 750s are going to provide of lot of power in unnecessary places. With e85 and 3.5 liters I could see 15 PSI by 2500 and I'm not sure that is good for anything except driving in 5th all day.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Maybe the best bet is to put them up for sale at the same time and see which sells first :)

I was eyeballing a fp green setup, but I'm not sure I like being the first person to try that. I gotta have decent power around 3500.

The other thing is my budget is stretched thin already, I'd have to run the evo 3s at least for a while.

[TurboSinceBirth]

Maybe the best bet is to put them up for sale at the same time and see which sells first :)

I was eyeballing a fp green setup, but I'm not sure I like being the first person to try that. I gotta have decent power around 3500.

The other thing is my budget is stretched thin already, I'd have to run the evo 3s at least for a while.

The FP greens are quite a bit bigger than the E16Gs. How much more than 600-650AWHP do you want? They'll support it but will be laggier and have a much higher hp threshold.

Compressor Turbine
Inducer Exducer Exducer Inducer
DR-750s 47.04mm ???(58 maybe) 52mm 45.6mm
E16Gs 48.1mm 68mm 56mm 49.1mm
DSM FP Green 52.6mm 73mm 67.2mm 58.8mm

You can see the FP Green is quite a bit bigger than the other TD04 and TD05 turbos. The compressor exducer will support more power but it also has a TD06H turbine wheel to handle it which will introduce more lag. The DSM and Subaru guys see full boost around 4700 rpms with the FP Green on a 2.0L. We only have 1.75L for each turbo to work with so I'd expect it slightly later on pump or close to that on E85. You could do a billet 20G 52.5/68 on a TD06SL2 turbine 61/54.1 for something between the 16Gs and FP Green.

[familyMAN]

The FP greens are quite a bit bigger than the E16Gs. How much more than 600-650AWHP do you want? They'll support it but will be laggier and have a much higher hp threshold.

Compressor Turbine
Inducer Exducer Exducer Inducer
DR-750s 47.04mm ???(58 maybe) 52mm 45.6mm
E16Gs 48.1mm 68mm 56mm 49.1mm
DSM FP Green 52.6mm 76mm 67.2mm 58.8mm

You can see the FP Green is quite a bit bigger than the other TD04 and TD05 turbos. The compressor exducer will support more power but it also has a TD06H turbine wheel to handle it which will introduce more lag. The DSM and Subaru guys see full boost around 4700 rpms with the FP Green on a 2.0L. We only have 1.75L for each turbo to work with so I'd expect it slightly later on pump or close to that on E85. You could do a billet 20G 52.5/68 on a TD06SL2 turbine 61/54.1 for something between the 16Gs and FP Green.

You are off on your FP green spool numbers. They spool much quicker than 4700 on a 2.0. Also, the HTA greens are 73mm billet now. Not 76. Reds are 76mm.

I would say around 850awhp with some street cams, e85, and boost cranked up on twin greens. Spool? Tough to say. Depends so much on your setup (cams, exhaust, etc). I would "guess" 20psi around 4k on a 3.5 with e85; so many variables though. Reds will get you close to 950awhp. Very similar turbo to Jesses MTC stg 4, but only $2200 brand new for a set. Expect the same spool as jesse or better with e85.

Like TSB said, how much power do you want to make? Hope your clutch can handle 700+awtq in any of these setups maxed out on a 3.5:D

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Really I don't need more power, which is why id like to run the 750s. Even 550 would make me happy for a long time.



The td05 setup just has some upgrade potential.



I'd probably go down to like 5 degrees of timing at 3000 to help keep torque down.



Honestly I was really having fun on the 3 liter at 490, so either new setup will be a blast.





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[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Really I don't need more power, which is why id like to run the 750s. Even 550 would make me happy for a long time.



I'd probably go down to like 5 degrees of timing at 3000 to help keep torque down.



Honestly I was really having fun on the 3 liter at 490, so either new setup will be a blast.


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[TurboSinceBirth]

You are off on your FP green spool numbers. They spool much quicker than 4700 on a 2.0. Also, the HTA greens are 73mm billet now. Not 76. Reds are 76mm.

I would say around 850awhp with some street cams, e85, and boost cranked up on twin greens. Spool? Tough to say. Depends so much on your setup (cams, exhaust, etc). I would "guess" 20psi around 4k on a 3.5 with e85; so many variables though. Reds will get you close to 950awhp. Very similar turbo to Jesses MTC stg 4, but only $2200 brand new for a set. Expect the same spool as jesse or better with e85.

Like TSB said, how much power do you want to make? Hope your clutch can handle 700+awtq in any of these setups maxed out on a 3.5:D

That may have been spool from the old FP Green setup basically a 50 trim Garrett compressor wheel on a TD06H hotside. That's what came up with a quick search were those spool numbers on DSM, EVO, and Subaru forums. The EVO FP turbos were BB but the DSM FP turbos are journal bearing. I don't know how recent they came out with the DSM FP BB versions of the green, black, and red but they're $2k a piece. I have a hard time keeping track of everything though so I could be wrong again.

[Greg E]

You drive a street car. TD04 for torque and simplicity. I'm sure there are 100 other things you can blow a few grand on.

[familyMAN]

There are both JB and BB DSM greens and reds now. JB 73mm green is only $1000. A pair of those on a 3.5 would be sick! Great spool and power.

I still think run the 750s since that is what you have and won't need to change oil/coolant lines or intercooler piping. You can always change later if you want more power.

I would also have ray tune on dyno if you are going to try to ring out that setup. Timing needs would be easier to find on dyno IMO.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

You drive a street car. TD04 for torque and simplicity. I'm sure there are 100 other things you can blow a few grand on.

Totally. Really the TD05 setup would be cheaper while I stick with the evo 3s. I just really love the torque rush at any rpm the 750s provide. I am still concerned about the bottom end though.

Ideally I'd go back to stock boost control and shoot for a safer boost level at < 3000. I mean this should be capable of 20 PSI at 3000 and I'm not sure that is very charted territory.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

There are both JB and BB DSM greens and reds now. JB 73mm green is only $1000. A pair of those on a 3.5 would be sick! Great spool and power.

I still think run the 750s since that is what you have and won't need to change oil/coolant lines or intercooler piping. You can always change later if you want more power.

I would also have ray tune on dyno if you are going to try to ring out that setup. Timing needs would be easier to find on dyno IMO.

Yeah, certainly on all of that. I kinda know better what to look out for now. For instance after a pull my oil pressure would be maybe 2-3 PSI lower. I just chalked that up to the oil getting hot, especially since it seemed to recover, but it was the bearing clearances opening up. Probably going to start logging oil pressure to have a better idea. It is hard to go by an analog gauge and expect to really be able to see small changes. Going to cut the oil filter open after any tuning day. I have a big stack of filters ready. Good news is Ray saw no signs of oil starvation which I was wondering about with the IPS pan and mobil 105 filter both being changes from stock.

Don't really plan on ringing it out totally unless I can get out to ray's at some point. If I could make it work it would be sweet to drive to ray's after the NG next year and get it tuned or if he's at the NG maybe we can street tune it with him in the seat. It should make 500 completely without a sweat, so hopefully I'll have the restraint to stop there or sooner if I am tuning it.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

You drive a street car. TD04 for torque and simplicity. I'm sure there are 100 other things you can blow a few grand on.

Greg, what are your thoughts on the evo maf at the moment? I know it is not perfect, but for 500-600 can I get by okay? I don't really need a bigger maf for better spool, lol.

I have the stuff to do a drawthrough z06 maf here, but I'm worried it is going to jack up the load scale and get me into some scary timing before I know it.

[familyMAN]

Why spend on the stroker if you are going to stay at 500? 750's on a built 3l would be as good of a combo without the added cost. Or did you just want the future upgradability?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

yeah not "staying" at 500. Just going to enjoy that for a while and yeah I want to be able to run bigger turbos in the future.

Stock crank was junk, so it wasn't that sensible to buy a new 3.0 crank really for the price difference.

[Greg E]

Greg, what are your thoughts on the evo maf at the moment? I know it is not perfect, but for 500-600 can I get by okay? I don't really need a bigger maf for better spool, lol.

I have the stuff to do a drawthrough z06 maf here, but I'm worried it is going to jack up the load scale and get me into some scary timing before I know it.

Switch to the GM MAF.

Which MAFT version?

Don't swet the load scaling getting fucked up. Simple tweaks to the MAF size value and all that is put back into check. Very simple. Get a good reading of the load numbers you see at say 0 and 15psi with the EVO MAF. When you switch to the GM MAF, record the load numbers again at the same boost. Ill show you what to do after that.

If you got $100 to blow, we can play with the corvette MAF (in draw thru) plugged directly into the ECU. It works amazingly well on my NA car.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Switch to the GM MAF.

Which MAFT version?

Don't swet the load scaling getting fucked up. Simple tweaks to the MAF size value and all that is put back into check. Very simple. Get a good reading of the load numbers you see at say 0 and 15psi with the EVO MAF. When you switch to the GM MAF, record the load numbers again at the same boost. Ill show you what to do after that.

If you got $100 to blow, we can play with the corvette MAF (in draw thru) plugged directly into the ECU. It works amazingly well on my NA car.

This is the most economical NEW z06 style maf I've found:

AF10043 Mass Air Flow Sensor MAF New Genuine Delphi 25168491 Delphi Box | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/330866268132?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

I was planning on running that with the maft 2.02, but if it will work without the box, even better. I'd be willing to try if it is safe.

[Greg E]

That one should work. I've been playing with the older "metal" housing version. As long as it has screens it "should be safe".

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Can't thank you anymore, thanks are all out, lol. I'm sure we'll be in touch once I get this thing running under the old config.

[j2k4]

Chris, you guys are talking over my head at the moment, but I thought one of your aims was to see how well the DR 750s kept up with the larger displacement.

Can you capsulize your thoughts on that? :)

[Greg E]

Can't thank you anymore, thanks are all out, lol. I'm sure we'll be in touch once I get this thing running under the old config.

You will still need my/ECM Tunings cable to use the MAF.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Chris, you guys are talking over my head at the moment, but I thought one of your aims was to see how well the DR 750s kept up with the larger displacement.

Can you capsulize your thoughts on that? :)

yeah that would be nice to see. I think they are going to make huge torque and about the same HP, but at less boost and lower rpm. Probably will be running out of breath by 6500, vs the 16Gs which would probably pull great until 7500. If we are going to continue bench racing I expect to see 20 psi by 3000 easily, maybe lower. Todd so far saw about 50 more hp at 14 psi than I did, so I'd expect near 550 at 21-22 psi. Never going to run them hard enough to see 650 unless ray tunes it for me. Ray expected my old power band to shift down almost 800 rpm. Off boost should be awesome too.

I'm also stock heads and cams, so the 750s should be a little better match really. I'm sure it will respond down low exactly like 9bs or better. Since I am not octane limited I don't see much, if any gains running cams and heads with these turbos on this engine.

On the other hand you can't argue with the silly 750 torque ray has made on 16G/3.5/E85 setup. I can't see that much torque in the 750s on any setup. I just spend a lot of time driving this thing day to day in 1st/2nd gear situations and I know no matter what in those sorts of setups the 750s are going to respond better. Sure, a third gear pull may really close the gap, but that is not most of my driving.

Sorry, that is basically one big long thought and maybe is just repetitive.

Maybe this helps you too, I like turbo setups that you can drive around lazily and they still pull hard all the time. I like something that feels "always on" and you don't really have to be in the right gear all the time.

[J. Fast]

The big question you have to ask yourself is 40psi of oil pressure good enough to film bearings experiencing 500ft/lbs of tq at 2500rpms? That's diesel territory right there. 80psi of oil pressure at 500ft/lbs sounds a neck of a lot better to not deform the bearings. Gotta push the rev's out to get the oil pressure up to keep the crank floating. Just some food for thought.

[JasonY]

I definitely don't think that the 750s are too small for a 3.5L though. Yes the TD04 turbine is very tiny and restrictive. The 9 blade TD05HL turbine helps a great deal though and even with the extra 0.5L displacement I don't perceive the turbos choking off the motor. Todd made awesome power at 14 psi on the 3.5L. Matt firmly believes his stock intercoolers were a much bigger restriction on the 3.5L dyno than the 750s ever would be. The next question is whether or not you can safely get the car tuned. Supposedly Todd's 3.5L DR-750 car wiped out the main bearings from too early of torque while on Ray's dyno. Hopefully someone will clear it up but that's what was alluded to by Jason. I have no idea how simple or easy it will be to tune it out but it definitely sounds like you need to be careful. It definitely has me spooked to see that happening on a built motor with Ray tuning a flashed ecu which he should have adequate enough experience with by now having gone through multiple cars.


It had too much timing down low and got knock. Problem is the car makes over 400tq at 3k rpms and thats all she wrote for the mains. The ARC2's air signal to the ECU really caught Ray off guard and we didnt pull enough timing initially where we thought we needed to. The air signal is like half what the MAFT spits out to the ECU. So the engine load to tune for was way lower than anticipated. And when the car makes that much power that easily it doesnt take much to break something.

Jason

[Greg E]

The big question you have to ask yourself is 40psi of oil pressure good enough to film bearings experiencing 500ft/lbs of tq at 2500rpms? That's diesel territory right there. 80psi of oil pressure at 500ft/lbs sounds a neck of a lot better to not deform the bearings. Gotta push the rev's out to get the oil pressure up to keep the crank floating. Just some food for thought.

What car makes 500ft pounds at 2500 RPMs??

[J. Fast]

What car makes 500ft pounds at 2500 RPMs??How much oil pressure does a turbo diesel produce at 2500rpm? How much oil pressure are you making at 3000,3500,4000? Think about it. Sounds like a very familiar situation.

[familyMAN]

Matt made 500 at 3350 on pump gas and meth at 21 psi with his stroker.

Warning: More bench racing:)....E85 and more boost could possibly get that down near or below 3k.

With 20w50 valvoline VR1, I had 25psi at 1k and 50 at 2k if I recall. Of course, higher above that.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Even the old motor made ~50 psi at 2500 on 10w40. I can run 20w50 to get the best pressure possible. I wasn't there to see any logs or anything, but if you have the load at that rpm you could go from thinking it is going to run like 10-12 degrees of timing and actually run 20+

not great for anything. I can't quite wrap my head around how the fueling using the arc2 can work if the maf signal is that hosed, but I am sure there is an explanation.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Well, hey the good news is I located a pristine crankshaft from a debonaire and it is already on the way to ray's.

Ironically it actually was one of the cranks trevor pulled from one of this blocks when he installed the 75 crank.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/9627155215_9d40f2d3b2_k.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7429/9627151575_d04b8a7a6d_k.jpg

Minor crank imperfections are not that bad for the stroker crank, but if they had a spun bearing in their live they may make them unsuitable.

[Greg E]

How much oil pressure does a turbo diesel produce at 2500rpm? How much oil pressure are you making at 3000,3500,4000? Think about it. Sounds like a very familiar situation.

I don't own a turbo diesel so I couldn't tell you. Couldn't tell you the oil pressure numbers these motors were seeing either.

What the evidence suggests is both these motors with DR750s were killed from crank flex caused by too much compression in the mid range RPMs. The evidence which supports this is the center mains being worn heavier than the outer ones which is a sign of crank flex.

The faces of the bearings were flattened smooth not burnt from lack of oil pressure. To be fair, I personally haven't witness this but this is the information that was reported to me.

[J. Fast]

Matt made 500 at 3350 on pump gas and meth at 21 psi with his stroker.

Warning: More bench racing:)....E85 and more boost could possibly get that down near or below 3k.

With 20w50 valvoline VR1, I had 25psi at 1k and 50 at 2k if I recall. Of course, higher above that.

Towing my car to the track with a 7.3 F350 I see 60psi at 2200rpm with 1200F EGT.

At 2200rpm in my GT on Platinum Ultra I see about 40psi.

[Greg E]

Even the old motor made ~50 psi at 2500 on 10w40. I can run 20w50 to get the best pressure possible. I wasn't there to see any logs or anything, but if you have the load at that rpm you could go from thinking it is going to run like 10-12 degrees of timing and actually run 20+

not great for anything. I can't quite wrap my head around how the fueling using the arc2 can work if the maf signal is that hosed, but I am sure there is an explanation.

I keep asking Todd to give me the ARC so I can play with it on my car and figure that out. There was only one car I remember tuning with the arc and actually logging engine load and that was one of my old DR500 stealths. It saw 110load in the peak ranges. I had 660s in that car.

[AdamVR4]

Any validity to a simple static load analysis on the conrod in these low oil pressure, high torque scenarios? Perhaps there really is enough torque to overwhelm the pressurized oil layer. What's the oil pressure at the conrod bearing at 25 psi gauge pressure?

[Greg E]

Towing my car to the track with a 7.3 F350 I see 60psi at 2200rpm with 1200F EGT.

At 2200rpm in my GT on Platinum Ultra I see about 40psi.

It's an intriguing theory for sure but I'm not seeing much evidence to support it. Definitely gonna keep an eye out for it though. :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I guess no one really knows, but I wish I knew it was safe to run these 750s on the 3.5 with e85 and not tear the bearings up.

I mean if I have to pull so much timing or boost at low rpm to keep it together I might as well run the 16Gs.

[R/T93]

Towing my car to the track with a 7.3 F350 I see 60psi at 2200rpm with 1200F EGT.

At 2200rpm in my GT on Platinum Ultra I see about 40psi.

Hmm at 2200 I am at 70 psi in my 3000(4.2 bar). 137k original motor/pump... I would venture to say any new build would have pressure similar to mine. 40@ 2200.... would freak me the f out.

From the phone.

[J. Fast]

Hmm at 2200 I am at 70 psi in my 3000(4.2 bar). 137k original motor/pump... I would venture to say any new build would have pressure similar to mine. 40@ 2200.... would freak me the f out.

From the phone.

I would be pleasantly surprised if you have 70psi of operating temp oil pressure at 2200rpms seeing how the manual spec's 12psi at a 900rpm warm curb idle. If you're gaining 50psi of oil pressure every 1500 rpms you'd blow the springs out of the oil pump. That means you'd have 260psi of oil pressure at redline. If you hit the clutch and take your foot off the pedal the pressure would drop to 12psi curb idle immediately. Man that sounds like a recipe for a wadded up engine.

FYI Nelson Bernarde wraps his racecar engine out to 11,000 rpm's and his peak oil pressure is roughly 140psi.

There was this thread on 3si about 3 years ago where a guy from a shop in England was modifying stock oil pump housings and fitting a high volume/high pressure system that netted an increase of the base oil pressure by 10psi at curb idle and 15% linear across the board. I believe he works for a NASCAR team now building 1000hp engines. His specialty was oil systems. He said that modest gain was enough to prevent spun bearings in our traditional oil starving engines.

[R/T93]

Sent PM to avoid OT discussion.

From the phone.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

750s came back in today. still not sure about running them.

[NOMIEZVR4]

750s came back in today. still not sure about running them.

and the plot thickens....

[anyonebutme]

750s came back in today. still not sure about running them.

dont run them, send them to me, save yourself.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

dont run them, send them to me, save yourself.

lol, sure. All you have to do is convince my wife.

[anyonebutme]

I think I can do that....convince her that slowing your car down is safer.....just look at how well my car survived since it was on low HP.

[JasonY]

Think of how fast you'll hit the wall next time if you had the 750's Chris....lol

Jason

[CoopKill]

OhhhhhhhPressure!

[anyonebutme]

think of how fast you'll hit the wall next time if you had the 750's chris....lol

jason

over 9000!!!!!!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Well, spoke to Ray today and he is not worried about the low end torque hurting the motor as long as the timing is safe, so I'm sticking with the 750s. A very nice IPS 16G kit will be for sale soon.

[Greg E]

over 9000!!!!!!

sthaaaaapu!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

turbos turbos turbos!

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/turbos/IMG_43643I6k_7At9.JPG

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/turbos/IMG_4361Xhop_2Zse.JPG

[j2k4]

Those of us watching from a distance are pleased for you, Chris.

Stride forth and do wondrous things. :)

[CoopKill]

Now for which?

[futurevr4man]

Be safe, Christopher! Your wife may kill you if you blow it up again!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Be safe, Christopher! Your wife may kill you if you blow it up again!

I don't know if she'd kill me, but the car would sit for a while!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Now for which?

all of them!. Two sets in parallel.

[familyMAN]

Changed my mind; go 16g:). Loved my billet td05's with the 74. 16g's will spool like the 750's did on the 3.0.

[futurevr4man]

I know you have made up your mind, but I think you should really go the 16g route. If I had you on recorder from last time we hung out, I'll bet you could convince yourself even. I am just scared for your bottom end... even if you take out the timing, 20psi at 3000rpms is just straight hard on the bearings. I'll bet jfast could write a few pages of equations showing the pressure on the bearings varying by rpm. Slower rotational speed means more force in a generalized area for longer (which is why you make torque at lower rpm as well, obviously). I'm just thinking out loud really

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Definitely still considering all options. I may toss the 750s up for sale and see if there are any takers since the 16G kit isn't getting bites yet.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Changed my mind; go 16g:). Loved my billet td05's with the 74. 16g's will spool like the 750's did on the 3.0.

you really think it will spool that fast? I figured I'd still lose 500 RPM. It is hard to make a direct comparison with the data I have seen. I'm not sure I have seen one 3.5 16G car running e85 and was ironed out.

[familyMAN]

you really think it will spool that fast? I figured I'd still lose 500 RPM. It is hard to make a direct comparison with the data I have seen. I'm not sure I have seen one 3.5 16G car running e85 and was ironed out.

You are adding about 16% displacement. (I'm not sure what the exact displacement is on stroker.) Take a typical 16g spool number at x psi at y rpm and drop the rpm by 16%. It worked out to EXACTLY that on my car when comparing the 3.5 NA heads/cams to my 3.0 with the same NA Heads/cams.

Of course different setups affect spool and tq but it will give you a general idea. I'm sure ray could give you the real world examples since he has probably tuned quite a few 16g cars, including the 16g stroker.

[HLxDrummer]

Haven't been following the entire thread but if your worried about power down low, can't you:
A) Don't go WOT until higher RPM (I do this with 9Bs or I'll get knock at low RPM/high load). If you want to go fast, downshift. I'm sure you can pull a hill as you would in a normal car in a normal gear without killing the engine
B) Pull timing
C) Adjust your boost controller to give you less boost at low RPM

Either way, good luck! It must be hard having to put all this work into your new car/build!

[kywhitelightning]

Slower rotational speed means more force in a generalized area for longer (which is why you make torque at lower rpm as well, obviously). I'm just thinking out loud really

TQ is made more down low because of more time for cylinder filling of air. More air more means more fuel required and more TQ will be made. DR750's spool fast which helps pump more air into the cylinders in low RPM's than all the other comparable turbos. Camshaft profile has a major part to play in that as well but I doubt anyone in there right mind would purchase a camshaft profile that adds TQ down low and in turn sacrifice top end HP especially in an aready small displacement engine.

The only other ways to increase TQ is to increase displacement via crank throw(stroker) or overbore.

Jeff

[futurevr4man]

I was considering editing that part out, but I didn't. I was just kind of kicking ideas around, but I agree with what you said. My point in my statement was more about a bearing having more force on a generalized area for longer, which I still think causes a lot of issues. When oiling issues occur its usually the rod bearings that go, when excessive force (usually caused by knock) happens... Usually the mains. And I know you know that, I'm just thinking out loud again. I could give a few examples of people on here that have killed engines at low rpm and no knock. People like to blame oiling issues, but its a much more complicated answer than that if you ask me. Bearing surface area, harmonics, etc come into play... Especially with a v6.

[jras312]

I'm not sure I have seen one 3.5 16G car running e85 and was ironed out.

Cant remember exactly what the numbers were when Ray sold his chameleon car and the customer wanted 16gs on his stroker, but I thought it made 750tq on e85.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Cant remember exactly what the numbers were when Ray sold his chameleon car and the customer wanted 16gs on his stroker, but I thought it made 750tq on e85.

yeah that is the only one I've seen and it had some pretty amazing results. Looks like it started spooling hard around 3000 and was making peak torque near 4000.

[futurevr4man]

Jrink had a 3.5 16g car as well I believe. Made similar power as well with very fast spool

[fastfalcon94]

Have you considered DR700 turbos? Aren't they similiar to the dr750's they just spool a little slower/later?

[TurboSinceBirth]

Cant remember exactly what the numbers were when Ray sold his chameleon car and the customer wanted 16gs on his stroker, but I thought it made 750tq on e85.

The numbers are at the end of the video 665AWHP 748AWTQ I posted a few pages ago but here it is again. 3.5L, E16Gs, E85, and Ray's tune.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oueT6uLpIHU

[familyMAN]

Ray said wastegates were blowing open and not holding much to redline. Better wastegates or shimmed may help up top but may not if comp wheel was simply out of flow.

Just for reference, Jesse made 688hp (can't remember tq) on race/meth on 6g74; Chris made 715 on e95, 3.0.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

well 750s it is. The TD05 kit sold, probably for the best for me.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Have you considered DR700 turbos? Aren't they similiar to the dr750's they just spool a little slower/later?

Those may be a good fit, but the higher flowing turbine I have would be better.

Plus if I changed from these DR750s to ANYTHING else it would be a larger frame turbo of some sort. Given the engine build I can really not afford to do any worthwhile upgrades right now, such as a large DR kit and being honest I really am not going to need more than 600AWHP ever.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Haven't been following the entire thread but if your worried about power down low, can't you:
A) Don't go WOT until higher RPM (I do this with 9Bs or I'll get knock at low RPM/high load). If you want to go fast, downshift. I'm sure you can pull a hill as you would in a normal car in a normal gear without killing the engine
B) Pull timing
C) Adjust your boost controller to give you less boost at low RPM

Either way, good luck! It must be hard having to put all this work into your new car/build!

Thank you for contributing, don't take what I have to respond negatively.

a)if I want to do this I may as well get "laggy" turbos.
b)yes, it is already in the worlds. I will be running significantly less timing than the base timing tune and will pay particular attention to knock voltage at low rpm. I'm probably going to also start my 3rd gear "pulls" for tuning purposes around 3500 until it is really close to avoid unnecessarily beating on the engine. In real life it isn't going to spend that much time wot at 3000 in 3rd.
c)This is possible, but kinda leads to A.

Going to play it carefully, but at some point I gotta have faith in ray's engine. Surely an engine running 1000AWHP at 6000 rpm is going to be at least as stressed as one making 500 torque at 3500.

I really have a feeling my mains were half smashed in the old motor before I started tuning it.

[HLxDrummer]

Thank you for contributing, don't take what I have to respond negatively.

a)if I want to do this I may as well get "laggy" turbos.
b)yes, it is already in the worlds. I will be running significantly less timing than the base timing tune and will pay particular attention to knock voltage at low rpm. I'm probably going to also start my 3rd gear "pulls" for tuning purposes around 3500 until it is really close to avoid unnecessarily beating on the engine. In real life it isn't going to spend that much time wot at 3000 in 3rd.
c)This is possible, but kinda leads to A.

Going to play it carefully, but at some point I gotta have faith in ray's engine. Surely an engine running 1000AWHP at 6000 rpm is going to be at least as stressed as one making 500 torque at 3500.

I really have a feeling my mains were half smashed in the old motor before I started tuning it.


I feel the same way you do.. it just seemed like people were suggesting bigger turbos simply to make power later to save the motor. Figured instead of reconfiguring your setup just to adjust the powerband, you could do those other things which would be a lot easier. Just in mind I didn't read the entire thread so maybe there were other reasons for considering 16Gs.

I would definitely want to keep as much power across the board as possible though (obviously). I wish you the best of luck and look forward to seeing how things go!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_52220xS2_aICc.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5224tJ3k_24b5.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5226M91k_86h9.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5228iGx3_G6ie.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5232Yss0_2KWP.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_523480k9_tmu8.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5235ptXK_XL0Z.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5237J2l7_2R86.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5241RB5W_54ZS.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5243N3Y5_800D.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5259SMF7_68p5.jpg

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/IMG_5271fQwi_nJZ8.jpg


I will reward one internet cookie to whoever figures out what this update means. (limited to one dozen total cookies)

[DK77]

You moved the Stealth to your new house.

[J-Groove]

!!!! That is my exact dream Stealth configuration!

2nd gen body with '96 wing and '99 headlights with 5 star chromies!

She looks great! Congratulations!

-John

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

You moved the Stealth to your new house.

http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/1081913-cookie%5B1%5DwYjC_f6mr.jpg

[OhioSpyderman]

You moved the Stealth to your new house.

...and it still isn't running, so it had to be towed?

Bob.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

...and it still isn't running, so it had to be towed?

Bob.

correct, http://www.chrisbehnken.com/Images/photos/CarMove/1081913-cookie%5B1%5DwYjC_f6mr.jpg!

[HLxDrummer]

I was wondering why the front end had so much wheel gap..

Congrats on the new house! Looks really nice, with a nice garage as well... And a really clean Stealth haha

[sergechronos]

Oh..Here I was thinking that you wanted to take the Stealth out for a cruise without getting it covered with road salt and putting miles on it.

[TurboSinceBirth]

How much room in this garage do you have compared to your other? It still looks like it would be a little cramped working on a vehicle with two in there at the same time but it's more room nonetheless if the wife doesn't mind the SUV outside for a few hours at a time.

[Jimvr4]

...and it still isn't running, so it had to be towed?

Bob.

And there's no engine installed in the bay because it's still with Pampena?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

How much room in this garage do you have compared to your other? It still looks like it would be a little cramped working on a vehicle with two in there at the same time but it's more room nonetheless if the wife doesn't mind the SUV outside for a few hours at a time.

Well, it certainly wasn't the biggest garage we looked at, but it was the best house by far and had the nicest/biggest lot. It was just once of those things my wife and I compromised on. Part of the deal is I can use the whole garage when I need to. So, if I am doing major work she'll have to be in the driveway.

The old garage was 11 ft wide (9 ft after you removed this stupid concrete step on the driver side of the car, try to do transmission swaps in 9 ft of width, it is not fun) by about 25 ft (counting the work shop area). The new one is plenty wide at 24 ft, but only 22 ft deep. If it were 24 ft deep I'd be super happy. So, all in all there is a TON more useable space, I just have to plan carefully how I setup workbenches and shelves. Since when doing engine assembly or anything big I can use the full width it really is a huge upgrade. The other thing is, the driveway is flat enough you could easily back the car out a few feet when necessary. The door is insulated as well, the breaker panel is in the garage, so I can do 220 pretty easy, and in general it is a good work space.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

And there's no engine installed in the bay because it's still with Pampena?

Yes, the engine is at ray's, but due to some shenanigans at the bank the downpayment on this place ended up being TWICE what it was illustrated on the pre-approval. By the time we knew this we already were in contract. So, I told Ray not to kill himself over it because it'll give a little time to recover. It is working out for the best.

[mdcrose]

Is that by chance Monochrome's old car?

[futurevr4man]

I'll answer for md... Yes it is

Chris, that's great man! Now when the heck are you gonna get me out there to break it in properly?!? Aka get drunk as can be like last time lol!!

[mdcrose]

That car has been around then, since it was Typicalstateguy's car before Monochrome had it. It's a small world cause I drove that car quite a few times and Typicalstateguy and I caravan'd together to NG04.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I don't think it was gregs, I bought it from jrod.

Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'll answer for md... Yes it is

Chris, that's great man! Now when the heck are you gonna get me out there to break it in properly?!? Aka get drunk as can be like last time lol!!




lol, would love to have you out sometime. We have a LOT to do to get the place together though.

You would sure have a lot bigger space to sleep in.





Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk

[kywhitelightning]

Nice place Chris. Congrats buddy.

Jeff

[fastfalcon94]

It looks nice. I like that you have a wide driveway for parking. The garage is about the same size of my friends. We made a ceiling access hole for him and he stores extra parts up overhead to conserve space. You could put an air compressor up there too and run a line down.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Nice place Chris. Congrats buddy.



Jeff




thanks Jeff, it has been a long time coming!





Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

It looks nice. I like that you have a wide driveway for parking. The garage is about the same size of my friends. We made a ceiling access hole for him and he stores extra parts up overhead to conserve space. You could put an air compressor up there too and run a line down.




thanks, yep there is an attic access in the garage, I could do that, good idea.





Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk

[HilbillyHomeboy]

That's a beautiful home! :)

Jeremy

[futurevr4man]

Jrods... That's right. I spoke too quick. My bad. I knew it was someone I knew haha


lol, would love to have you out sometime. We have a LOT to do to get the place together though.

You would sure have a lot bigger space to sleep in.





Sent from my RM-845_nam_vzw_100 using Tapatalk


You just let me know when! You're not but a measley 6 hours away hahaha!

[hated]

Just got here, so not sure if anyone caught this:


Noisy engine shows false knock at low loads. I never posted a thread about how to "tune" the knock sensor because my fear is it opens the door to people messing their engines up.

At any rate, you were probably just making too much power for that tired old engine. It seems right around when you get to the sweet spot with these turbos, the stock motor gives out...

Please do... is it possible to run different knock sensor tunes, or run an E85 specific unit? One for E85 and one for pump gas?

[Greg E]

Please do... is it possible to run different knock sensor tunes, or run an E85 specific unit? One for E85 and one for pump gas?

No. The knock sensor doesn't need to be "retuned" for different fuels. You tune it for your specific engine.

See, the code is setup to detect sudden noises outside the average engine noise to a certain point. It's that point which varies motor to motor. Higher octane fuels will just simply not produce "pings" too far outside the average engine noise.

[HilbillyHomeboy]

^Yep. As well as the valvetrains in these heads are inherently noisy. Different springs, solid lifters, etc, can greatly change the noise level.

Jeremy

[J. Fast]

Just got here, so not sure if anyone caught this:



Please do... is it possible to run different knock sensor tunes, or run an E85 specific unit? One for E85 and one for pump gas?

Contrary to what was once thought the stock knock sensor can detect noise for any fuel. The solution was discovered by a few engineers at EvoM about 5 years ago.

One thing to note, in order to properly tune for knock you can't use your typical MUT loggers. Deconstructors of Open Flash at EvoM determined it's best to use DMA logging accelerators because they catch every ignition timing event and you can disseminate.
You can cruise thru this thread to learn how to log engine noise and fine-tune. Knock control - load vs RPM table found - evolutionm.net (http://forums.evolutionm.net/ecuflash/382625-knock-control-load-vs-rpm-table-found.html) . Best of luck.

[Greg E]

I had thought about re-writing the entire knock base subroutines to match closer to the EVO but haven't yet encountered a need for it. The current filter/octane setup works just fine.

[J. Fast]

I had thought about re-writing the entire knock base subroutines to match closer to the EVO but haven't yet encountered a need for it. The current filter/octane setup works just fine.

Yes it does :). Can you post up your knock filter and multiplier logging results in another thread?

[Jimvr4]

Still recovering from the shenanigans? Looking forward to seeing you make use of that new garage :)

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Still recovering from the shenanigans? Looking forward to seeing you make use of that new garage :)

me too :)

I have the garage outfitted pretty well, hung some shelves, tools are fairly organized. Not to the point it was, but useable. Haven't heard about the motor. Haven't bugged ray about it though. I hope I do by sometime in March because I need a lot of assembly and shakedown time if I am going to make the NG with it this year. I work pretty slow... I can't just make things work, but try to make sure its put back together as if I'm not planning on pulling it apart again.

I did the ultimate white trash thing and washed it the other day with no motor in it haha. It was looking horrible from sitting and was getting covered in sawdust.

[Jimvr4]

Probably have to start bugging Ray to get it by then :)

I hear you about taking your time. Lots of little things stalled my build but I'm past that now and it's getting fun :) I probably won't make NG again this year mostly because of family trips etc centered around the kids graduations.

[Ray Pampena]

hey man, i just came on here to check with you about that. i know you were busy with the whole house deal and all. the engine has been ready.. so im ready when you are. also, i did a ton of testing with E85 and the mysteries of knock, engine damage and pre ignition. for knock.. i still never see knock with this fuel. since other platforms do see it.. ill still say that our sensor doesnt like to read it. on a different front.. this fuel is the worst with pre ignition compared to any other fuel ive used. this means you can do a nice clean tune thats perfect.. then make a 4 gear pull and by say the end or third or 4th.. the clowing center and ground electrode light off the fuel before the spark. so regardless of the timing, you end up with damage. the fix is cold plugs with a short ground electrode.. like domestic race engines with big nitrous. i did back to back testing and it ends all of that

Ray

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

hey man, i just came on here to check with you about that. i know you were busy with the whole house deal and all. the engine has been ready.. so im ready when you are. also, i did a ton of testing with E85 and the mysteries of knock, engine damage and pre ignition. for knock.. i still never see knock with this fuel. since other platforms do see it.. ill still say that our sensor doesnt like to read it. on a different front.. this fuel is the worst with pre ignition compared to any other fuel ive used. this means you can do a nice clean tune thats perfect.. then make a 4 gear pull and by say the end or third or 4th.. the clowing center and ground electrode light off the fuel before the spark. so regardless of the timing, you end up with damage. the fix is cold plugs with a short ground electrode.. like domestic race engines with big nitrous. i did back to back testing and it ends all of that

Ray

wow that is great, I'll send a pm!

Do you have any specific plugs you recommend? That is very good information to know about the pre-ignition!

[FeaRpb]

wow that is great, I'll send a pm!

Do you have any specific plugs you recommend? That is very good information to know about the pre-ignition!

+1

And does that fall under anyone running e85 or just those with this type of setup and higher?

[Ray Pampena]

+1

And does that fall under anyone running e85 or just those with this type of setup and higher?

its just for E85. autolite AR3932 and AR3933.

[Toni]

Does that mean it would be difficult to run a hybrid fuel setup and switching back and forth?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

its just for E85. autolite AR3932 and AR3933.

I guess we should try the AR3932 and see if it fouls and then move to the colder AR3933 ? I was running 7 series NGKs before which were probably too hot anyway.

[FeaRpb]

its just for E85. autolite AR3932 and AR3933.

I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but I kind of was wondering. How do the AR3932/3933 compare to the CHAMPION Race Plug 694 C53VC. Or is the AR3932/3933 THE WAY to go?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

wow seen some posts on other forums that the ar3932 is like a 10 series NGK? maybe the 33 would be better for me.

[Ray Pampena]

I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything, but I kind of was wondering. How do the AR3932/3933 compare to the CHAMPION Race Plug 694 C53VC. Or is the AR3932/3933 THE WAY to go?

the champion C53VC is a surface fire plug. its perfect for keeping away pre ignition but offers no self cleaning and often run like shit. my car would missfire until cylinder temps come up. they also dont last.

the 3932 is super cold and the ground electrode is the best at keeping the heat out. the ground electrode is super short and heavy. the 3933 is similar to the NGK 5671A-9 which i also run with no problems.

[FeaRpb]

All I needed to know. Thank you ray

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[DK77]

Some excellent information that just got shared. Thanks Ray!

[futurevr4man]

I'm going to be an echo for Toni real quick and ask if the plugs recommended would have trouble switching from say 93 to e85 and back?

[Ray Pampena]

I'm going to be an echo for Toni real quick and ask if the plugs recommended would have trouble switching from say 93 to e85 and back?

they havnt been a problem for me.. but they wont last that long on 93. the colder plug doesnt self clean as well. when the car is crank up high boost and E85, the plugs clean fine with the high cylinder temps. so in short, they will foul quicker on 93 but they work. im always swapping back and forth with fuels

[HellBringer]

Ray, have you ever had any issues with non-resistor plugs?

[Ray Pampena]

None at all. Ive always run them in these cars. Doesnt even have radio noise

[Kx1984]

^^^^^ ditto

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Has anyone tried installing the engine from the fender side, instead of coming in from the front. Due to the layout of my garage this would give me more room. I can't think of a good reason this can't be done, but if someone has tried that would be good information.

[Jimvr4]

I believe at 22 feet you have close to the same depth as my garage. If you push your car back as far as you can leaving 6-12 inches in back then you should have 5-6 feet in front of the car. When you push the hoist in from the fender, the engine/trans will be hanging over the front end and you don't need that much room to turn the hoist straight with the car. In my case I also had to keep the boom height under about 7 1/2 feet to clear the garage door rail. I suggest having the bumper cover off to prevent scuffs.

[Ray Pampena]

Has anyone tried installing the engine from the fender side, instead of coming in from the front. Due to the layout of my garage this would give me more room. I can't think of a good reason this can't be done, but if someone has tried that would be good information.

ive done that no problem

[Greg E]

Try this Chris:

Undo the brake master from the booster (leave the lines attached) and remove the booster (4 12mm inside and the pin for the brake pedal)

Reach down and undo the 12mm bolt that holds the steering rack to the pinion

Remove the radiator and unbolt the AC compressor. Zip tie it to the headlight bucket.

Remove the PS pump (1x 14mm nut and 1x 14mm bolt)

Undo the clutch slave and zip tie it to the firewall.

Undo the drivers and passenger motor mounts.

Undo the strut tops.

Undo the brake calipers and zip tie them to the unibody.

Remove the front bumper.

Unbolt the entire front subframe and lower it onto a dolly or two.

Raise just the front of the car using the hoist attached to the front bumper.

Roll the whole assembly out from the passenger side.

Sounds like more work but its easier and safer to work with in such a small space and it won't mess up your alignment.

[kywhitelightning]

Has anyone tried installing the engine from the fender side, instead of coming in from the front. Due to the layout of my garage this would give me more room. I can't think of a good reason this can't be done, but if someone has tried that would be good information.

I've done that. No issues at all.

Jeff

[kywhitelightning]

Try this Chris:

Undo the brake master from the booster (leave the lines attached) and remove the booster (4 12mm inside and the pin for the brake pedal)

Reach down and undo the 12mm bolt that holds the steering rack to the pinion

Remove the radiator and unbolt the AC compressor. Zip tie it to the headlight bucket.

Remove the PS pump (1x 14mm nut and 1x 14mm bolt)

Undo the clutch slave and zip tie it to the firewall.

Undo the drivers and passenger motor mounts.

Undo the strut tops.

Undo the brake calipers and zip tie them to the unibody.

Remove the front bumper.

Unbolt the entire front subframe and lower it onto a dolly or two.

Raise just the front of the car using the hoist attached to the front bumper.

Roll the whole assembly out from the passenger side.

Sounds like more work but its easier and safer to work with in such a small space and it won't mess up your alignment.

Unless you are precise with the placement of the subframe when reinstalling, there could be front to rear skew alignment wise. Popping ball joints and tie rod ends are about the only ways to tinker with suspension components without inducing some alignment change.

That is an interesting approach though, like cadillacs that won't come out from the top. I did and endevor engine swap that had to come out the bottom once too.

Jeff

[Greg E]

Unless you are precise with the placement of the subframe when reinstalling, there could be front to rear skew alignment wise. Popping ball joints and tie rod ends are about the only ways to tinker with suspension components without inducing some alignment change.

That is an interesting approach though, like cadillacs that won't come out from the top. I did and endevor engine swap that had to come out the bottom once too.

Jeff

The front camber is set by the upper strut to knuckle mounting bolt which most people remove in order to pop the axles and pull the trans. Doing it like this will keep that un-disturbed. Unless your subframe rubber mounts are really jacked, it should go back on exactly how it came off.

I forgot that the high pressure PS feed lines need to be undone at the rack too with this method. They don't need gaskets to be reinstalled.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

we are way past pulling the motor fellas :)

[kywhitelightning]

The front camber is set by the upper strut to knuckle mounting bolt which most people remove in order to pop the axles and pull the trans. Doing it like this will keep that un-disturbed. Unless your subframe rubber mounts are really jacked, it should go back on exactly how it came off.

I forgot that the high pressure PS feed lines need to be undone at the rack too with this method. They don't need gaskets to be reinstalled.

I pop the lower ball joint and turn the steering wheel to help get the half shafts out of the trans. It works really well.

Not arguing this out and since Ray said the engine is done my excitement is growing to see this project move forward.

Jeff

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

the champion C53VC is a surface fire plug. its perfect for keeping away pre ignition but offers no self cleaning and often run like shit. my car would missfire until cylinder temps come up. they also dont last.

the 3932 is super cold and the ground electrode is the best at keeping the heat out. the ground electrode is super short and heavy. the 3933 is similar to the NGK 5671A-9 which i also run with no problems.

NGKs are a little easier to get for me, you are saying that the NGK 5671A-9 is going to work well on the 500-600 AWHP E85 range? I never considered that the NGK 5671A-7 I was running would cause pre-ignition, I naively though that it would only be an issue on low octain stuff. It makes a lot of sense though since my engine looked like it had timing damage and my timing was conservative. It may also explain the misfire I would get sometimes as I've read pre-ignition can do that.

Also, do you expect any issues breaking the engine in with a plug that cold? I have a new set of the R5671A-7 I could run on low boost and break it in if you think that would be better. I have not changed anything on the fuel side of things, so I'm hoping it will not be excessively rich when starting it up.

Edit: I have found the AR3933 locally. You would rather run this than the NGK? I'm normally a NGK man, but will go with your recommendation.

[kywhitelightning]

I run the NGK 8's and they were fine for my engine break in. Plugs that cold come with a disclaimer as Ray had mentioned before that until cylinder temps come up and you drive it like granny they will miss randomly until cleaned with some power runs. I run ECT's in the 180's range. Run a little boost in there and it seems to correct it for a little while.

Jeff

[Jimvr4]

What plugs would you guys run if you stayed on pump? I currently have stock NGK's in my DR650 build and pretty sure I need to go a step colder.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

ordered some Autolite AR3933's

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

What plugs would you guys run if you stayed on pump? I currently have stock NGK's in my DR650 build and pretty sure I need to go a step colder.

on straight pump I think the NGK 5671A-7 is still pretty ideal.

[Jimvr4]

on straight pump I think the NGK 5671A-7 is still pretty ideal.

Thanks. I went with NGK BKR7ES. I was getting some knock counts so hopefully that will solve it.

[CoopKill]

Did you ever try the NGK BCR8ES? I have 2 set to give a whirl when I figure out my issues.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

FYI rockauto has the autolite plugs for 1.96 each. I got 12 of them for $28 shipped

[mb3000]

I'm running NGK BKR7ES-11 with mine. About 20 psi so far, got them from Ninja for a great price. I'm sure you will have success with them Jim.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

no offense fellas, but lets not confuse this issue. The cold plugs are really necessary for e85 specifically. The success of your pump gas plugs does not carry over to e85 unless you want to pop your motor.

[mb3000]

I never said they did. I specifically referenced Jim in my post, because he asked about staying on pump. I don't have any experience with E85, so I don't pretend like I know what I'm talking about in that regard :lol:

[familyMAN]

Ray, can you expand on what you have seen and what we should look out for on e85 plug temp? The suggested autolites are much colder than what other platforms are running in similar or greater hp range.

Is this small frame turbo specific (td04/05) because of intake temps and backpressure when cranked up or does it apply to larger frame turbo setups as well.

My understanding is preignition leads to catastrophic failure. Did you have to break some parts to find this info out?

Thanks in advance for any additional insight!!!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

All squared away with Ray. I'm hoping the trucking guys can pick it up sometime next week.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Engine Specs:

1)Stroker based off 6G74 forged crankshaft
2)BC Forged Rods
3)92mm Ross / Pampena Custom Stroker Pistons
4)Cylinder heads stock, but rebuilt by Rays shop

I don't know what wrist pins he used, presumably the tool steel ones he has with that piston set. Should be a hair over 3.4 liters. If I had the cash I would've got the head lift fix and a port/oversize valve job, but you gotta stop somewhere. I think it will be a good match for the capabilities of the DR750s. By the time heads/cams would help the turbos would be about out of flow.

[Jimvr4]

Wow, that's going to be a powerhouse!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

should be easy to drive lazily. 15 PSI around 2500 RPM maybe? Its going to make torque if nothing else.

[Unlogic]

You really deserve cred for not giving up and instead pushing on even harder with this build. :thumbup2:

[sergechronos]

If I had the cash I would've got the head lift fix and a port/oversize valve job, but you run out of money somewhere.

Fixed that.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

You really deserve cred for not giving up and instead pushing on even harder with this build. :thumbup2:

thanks, we'll see how brave I am when it is time to turn up the boost controller :)

I don't think I'm going out on week one and setting any records.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Fixed that.

haha even if you don't "run" out of money at some point you have to think "budget". I am not going to eat ramen noodles to get this thing going again :)

[Jimvr4]

thanks, we'll see how brave I am when it is time to turn up the boost controller :)

I don't think I'm going out on week one and setting any records.

Yeah, I've been taking my time on that too. I'm baselining everything at this point. Decided to run compression test while all my plugs are out. Old plugs looked fine but I was getting detonation at 14 PSI with the stock heat range 6

[familyMAN]

Ray, can you expand on what you have seen and what we should look out for on e85 plug temp? The suggested autolites are much colder than what other platforms are running in similar or greater hp range.

Is this small frame turbo specific (td04/05) because of intake temps and backpressure when cranked up or does it apply to larger frame turbo setups as well.

My understanding is preignition leads to catastrophic failure. Did you have to break some parts to find this info out?

Thanks in advance for any additional insight!!!

Bump :)

[JasonY]

The 3.5 is worth it for the sound alone, getting to hear two cars with the same exhausts, 1 a 3L and 1 and 3.5, the 3.5 sounds just boss as hell and the 3L sounds weak in comparison.

I will be very curious if you have the stock knock sensor calibration issues Todd is having with his car. Stroker is noisier than a 3L and we've yet to make any decent power with the car on the new engine. Makes around 400awhp/torque right now(which is slow as shit btw) drowned in fuel/meth to keep the engine quiet enough to keep the timing from getting yanked and making even less power(makes more but power just skydives when the timing gets pulled due to wha the ecu thinks is knock)

Jason

[mb3000]

Jason, what are you guys running for engine management?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Shouldn't be a huge problem with chrome, but I am also curious.

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[JasonY]

MAFT + Chrome

Jason

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

You guys have not adjusted the knock tables?

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[JasonY]

Ray tried messing with it to no avail..but next time we head to Rays, Greg is also going(thats the plan anyway) to see if he can make it work. Ray may not have been adjusting the right table, or the table correctly(enough).

Jason

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Looking forward to the outcome. I'll let know how noisy mine is. Since I'm on e85 it should all be phantom knock.

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[CoopKill]

Jason, oem sensor?

[JasonY]

yeah, thats the only one i know of...

The car was quiet on the stock 3L engines at up to 30psi with ~11:1 AFR(93+75%M/25%w), running mid 10's now with 1k cc's of PURE meth, no timing and no power to keep from getting enough noise where the stock ecu yanks timing and kills power.

I rrrreally hope you dont run into any issues with this also Chris. Greg is very confident it can be resolved with a few key strokes though.

Jason

[CoopKill]

There is a non oem one out there that will randomly bounce 8-9 counts knock new. Just checking to be sure you don't have it. Ask me how I know. There has been at least 2 people that have had this.