Midwest Turbo - What is up?

[Ninja Performance]

So what is up with Midwest Turbo?
92RT-TT hasn't been on since March (according to his profile)
I thought they were a 3sgto sponsoring shop but I don't see a shop forum section.
I wanted to ask them about a couple of their turbos but they have not responded to emails, contact thru website, PMs from here.
I know, pick up a phone, every time I get a few spare minutes to do that it ends up being 9pm. Shop is too damn busy LOL.

Anyway, anyone deal with them recently? Been able to contact them?

-Chris

[TT4ME]

Yea, I just got an upgraded/rebuilt turbo back. Two week turn-around time. I did not have any inquiries.

[TurboSinceBirth]

I sent my turbos in a month ago to have them rebuilt after the failure. Dan said they had a backlog of local business fleet turbos to go through before he could get to mine. I know they've been real busy with a steady increase in business. I'm not sure what/if they'll do anything further regarding billet TD04 turbos for this platform since so far the only dyno proved worse off than DR-650s with a torque curve dropping like a rock. Something was wrong with the car or the tuner because what little data I got was complete opposite so hopefully things continue.

[colossus]

I have not had time to update my build/ hype thread or post all of my dyno results but for now i will say nothing was wrong with the engine. I will post up all of my results soon. Bills will for sure produce for HP than mine. i will be interrested to see his torque. Torque on the devs still was more than the dr650s on another car but the 12 blade set up makes these a great street turbo for a car not running extra ignition or meth. It's hp efficiency is the same as a mhi 19t HL. If someone is adding more items to build arsenal 750's are still the way to go. All of this said. Turbos kinda fall in line priced accordingly for power at this point.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Good Luck getting a hold of em...95% of the time no one answers the phone...

[Blackmount]

damn, and I just suggested them to someone, and thought to myself...haven't really heard anything from them in awhile...

[Ninja Performance]

Maybe it's Forced Performance time.

-Chris

[ItTricky]

i was at there shop today, 92rt-tt just went back to working there full time, they had been backed up, but yeah best way to get ahold of them is call.

[TurboSinceBirth]

I have not had time to update my build/ hype thread or post all of my dyno results but for now i will say nothing was wrong with the engine. I will post up all of my results soon. Bills will for sure produce for HP than mine. i will be interrested to see his torque. Torque on the devs still was more than the dr650s on another car but the 12 blade set up makes these a great street turbo for a car not running extra ignition or meth. It's hp efficiency is the same as a mhi 19t HL. If someone is adding more items to build arsenal 750's are still the way to go. All of this said. Turbos kinda fall in line priced accordingly for power at this point.

What doesn't make sense is MTC 19Ts performed better with the same HL 12 blade backside vs your turbos and the torque didn't drop off like a rock from 400AWTQ at 3900 rpms to 270AWTQ at 6400 rpms. That makes no sense other than there being a tuning or motor error. Torque should not drop off that sharp. Hell, put any 19T no matter who makes it up against that dyno and it will beat the pants off it so hard. With my setup I know there was plenty of power there even at redline it wanted more and more. That wasn't all because of the 9 blade turbine either. I'm curious what your dyno looks like on different turbos and hopefully it all goes very well since you've sunk too much money in the car already for it not to perform very well especially since we have plenty of results on the turbos you'll be running.

[CoopKill]

A bit nervous about the events with these things, but I will be installing tomorrow/Sunday. There are a lot of loose ends to tie up with the other things installed, and break in mileage for the engine/clutch. Hoping to start tuning, and a trip to the dyno within a couple weeks.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

What doesn't make sense is MTC 19Ts performed better with the same HL 12 blade backside vs your turbos and the torque didn't drop off like a rock from 400AWTQ at 3900 rpms to 270AWTQ at 6400 rpms. That makes no sense other than there being a tuning or motor error. Torque should not drop off that sharp. Hell, put any 19T no matter who makes it up against that dyno and it will beat the pants off it so hard. With my setup I know there was plenty of power there even at redline it wanted more and more. That wasn't all because of the 9 blade turbine either. I'm curious what your dyno looks like on different turbos and hopefully it all goes very well since you've sunk too much money in the car already for it not to perform very well especially since we have plenty of results on the turbos you'll be running.

IPS 19T L wheels 415awtq@3900rpm to 350awtq@6400rpm http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/twizted_3kgt/th_443whp-457wtq--20psi--18psi2redline-74F--20DT_zpsfdb2de03.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/twizted_3kgt/media/443whp-457wtq--20psi--18psi2redline-74F--20DT_zpsfdb2de03.jpg.html)

I'd have to agree, that's a pretty big drop.

[TurboSinceBirth]

A bit nervous about the events with these things, but I will be installing tomorrow/Sunday. There are a lot of loose ends to tie up with the other things installed, and break in mileage for the engine/clutch. Hoping to start tuning, and a trip to the dyno within a couple weeks.

You'll be fine Coop. I plan to get some VD numbers when I get the turbos back and installed. I'll be putting in a bigger BOV this time so the turbos don't come apart on high boost shifts. I don't think you have anytthing to worry about.

[CoopKill]

You are getting them back as they were before??? :Clap:

[TurboSinceBirth]

You are getting them back as they were before??? :Clap:

Well, not exactly. The 9 blade wheel MTC used isn't available because it was the only production one and I don't think MTC is interested in finding another shop to make it. Kinugawa makes a 9 blade TD04 HL turbine wheel although I'm still hesitant about their quality. That is an option if I want a 9 blade turbine wheel. I'm on the fence though and may go with the 12 blade even though I much prefer the 9 for performance. The turbos can be fixed but I don't know the damage yet.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

You'll be fine Coop. I plan to get some VD numbers when I get the turbos back and installed. I'll be putting in a bigger BOV this time so the turbos don't come apart on high boost shifts. I don't think you have anytthing to worry about.

WUT? What BOV were you running?

[keo92stealth]

Hmmm sounds like Mr. Ninja wants to upgrade snails ..

[NOMIEZVR4]

You'll be fine Coop. I plan to get some VD numbers when I get the turbos back and installed. I'll be putting in a bigger BOV this time so the turbos don't come apart on high boost shifts. I don't think you have anytthing to worry about.

Where did that theory come from?

[TurboSinceBirth]

WUT? What BOV were you running?

Greddy RS. I knew some people on other platforms said it had to be adjusted tight to work with higher boost but some said it had problems surging also. I never heard anything and ran it for months at 28 psi. I planned to change it to a Tial but I guess got too comfortable with changing something that wasn't broke.


Where did that theory come from?

It's about the only reasonable explanation I can come up with. I was talking to my friend that was in the car with me and he said the puff of smoke was during the 3 to 4 shift. I'm guessing what happened is that the BOV couldn't release enough volume quick enough, the air surged back against the compressor wheel, it stalled the compressor wheel enough to tighten up the compressor nut enough that the shaft snapped, and then the turbo catastrophically failed. It's obvious that the compressor nut spun off the turbo and being a left handed thread it wouldn't have done it by itself. There had to be some force acting against it so I think going from 28.8 psi 160-180k rpms and then letting off for the shift the turbo changed quite a few rpms with the BOV not helping either. In the pics you can clearly see the grooves in the compressor wheel where the nut sat.

Since Dan deleted the Devastator thread for PR reasons probably here's the pics again.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/Schuppenherz/95%20RT%20TT/P1030106_zps2246ba4f.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/Schuppenherz/media/95%20RT%20TT/P1030106_zps2246ba4f.jpg.html)
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/Schuppenherz/95%20RT%20TT/P1030124_zpsbe821165.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/Schuppenherz/media/95%20RT%20TT/P1030124_zpsbe821165.jpg.html)
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/Schuppenherz/95%20RT%20TT/IMG_20130310_003637_zps454e19ef.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/Schuppenherz/media/95%20RT%20TT/IMG_20130310_003637_zps454e19ef.jpg.html)

[TurboSinceBirth]

A member here also did some testing on a 9b turbo. The shaft was torqued to 40 in/lbs. At 110 in/lbs it snapped. He tried it with loctite also which increased the snapping torque another 15 in/lbs. Multiple turbo rebuilders said anything above 50 in/lbs is overtorqued and will cause the shaft to break. You can easily see that the compressor wheel stalling some due to the BOV not able to release the air quick enough or enough volume could result in the nut tightening itself. It wouldn't take much to cause a failure. That's the only logical explanation I can come up with. Had it been during a pull I'm sure there would have been something else going on but it was during the shift the turbo took a crap.

[RealMcCoy]

Hmmm sounds like Mr. Ninja wants to upgrade snails ..

That's funny...

Sounds more like he's looking for a reliable supplier of upgraded TD04's for his customers...


You'll be fine Coop. I plan to get some VD numbers when I get the turbos back and installed. I'll be putting in a bigger BOV this time so the turbos don't come apart on high boost shifts. I don't think you have anytthing to worry about.

That is as good a theory as any out there... It's pretty obvious SOMETHING caused the compressor wheel to spin on the shaft.


A member here also did some testing on a 9b turbo. The shaft was torqued to 40 in/lbs. At 110 in/lbs it snapped. He tried it with loctite also which increased the snapping torque another 15 in/lbs. Multiple turbo rebuilders said anything above 50 in/lbs is overtorqued and will cause the shaft to break. You can easily see that the compressor wheel stalling some due to the BOV not able to release the air quick enough or enough volume could result in the nut tightening itself. It wouldn't take much to cause a failure. That's the only logical explanation I can come up with. Had it been during a pull I'm sure there would have been something else going on but it was during the shift the turbo took a crap.

Being as I'm the one that did the testing, I'll clarify what I did... I sacrificed a couple of old 9B shafts and wheels to overtorque testing.

I assembled the first one with no locktite on the nut, torqued to 40 inch/lbs, and clamped the compressor wheel in the vise. I then began to apply torque from the turbine end. I found the the wheel and the flanged nut were locked by friction, and they moved together as a unit. There seemed to be little resistance to increased torque, as I was able to get it to move with under 50 inch lbs. I continued to torque it in 10 in/lb increments until the shaft failed at 100 in/lbs.(it didn't actually snap until 110, but it felt a little stretchy getting to 100, so I'm calling that the failure point)

I repeated the above with loctite on the nut, and got basically the same results with the only difference being the breakaway torque was increased by 15in/lbs. (which is a pretty significant increase of 37%) Those results may even be increased by careful and proper prep, and use of activator on the loctite.

What I would "like" to see built into the design of these huge billet wheels, is an interference fit on the shaft... It would make assembly and disassembly a bit more tedious, as you would have to warm the wheel up to install/remove, but it would positively prevent any movement of the wheels once installed and torqued.

Even if you don't break the shaft, any movement at all is going to reclock the wheels in relation to each other, and potentially create an unbalance condition. It seems pretty obvious that it's scenario that should be avoided...

[sergechronos]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/Schuppenherz/95%20RT%20TT/P1030106_zps2246ba4f.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/Schuppenherz/media/95%20RT%20TT/P1030106_zps2246ba4f.jpg.html)
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/Schuppenherz/95%20RT%20TT/P1030124_zpsbe821165.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/Schuppenherz/media/95%20RT%20TT/P1030124_zpsbe821165.jpg.html)
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk184/Schuppenherz/95%20RT%20TT/IMG_20130310_003637_zps454e19ef.jpg (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/Schuppenherz/media/95%20RT%20TT/IMG_20130310_003637_zps454e19ef.jpg.html)

This is what nightmares are made of. Absolutely crazy to see like this though.

[Tigchamp]

Would it not be possible to TIG fusion weld the nut to the end of the shaft to prevent movement after the nut has been torqued?
If You only fuse the nut to the shaft without any filler wire it should not cause any imbalance.
Jeff:coo3l:

[RealMcCoy]

Would it not be possible to TIG fusion weld the nut to the end of the shaft to prevent movement after the nut has been torqued?
If You only fuse the nut to the shaft without any filler wire it should not cause any imbalance.
Jeff:coo3l:

Not economical... It would turn a (often quite expensive) turbine shaft into a one use item.

[Tigchamp]

Not economical... It would turn a (often quite expensive) turbine shaft into a one use item.

You mean unlike when you break the shaft. Lol
Jeff:coo3l:

[Blackmount]

my front turbo brokeded today...

[wingnut]

subscribed...

[Tigchamp]

I still think that Fusion welding the nut & having to replace the shaft as & when needed is a lot cheaper than buying a new shaft, compressor wheel & compressor housing when the shaft fails;)
Jeff:coo3l:

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

welding or not the shaft would still break. You guys seem hung up on the nut coming loose, but no one knows that is what happened. I'm more inclined to believe the shaft just broke.

You don't see any of the other turbos doing this and none of their nuts are welded.

[FeaRpb]

I second the shaft snapping. It has a nice sound to it.

[Tigchamp]

welding or not the shaft would still break. You guys seem hung up on the nut coming loose, but no one knows that is what happened. I'm more inclined to believe the shaft just broke.

You don't see any of the other turbos doing this and none of their nuts are welded.

The post implied that the nut was indeed tightening up and exceeding the torque value of the shaft and then snapping. not coming undone. Welding the nut to the shaft would prevent this.
Jeff:coo3l:

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

The post implied that the nut was indeed tightening up and exceeding the torque value of the shaft and then snapping. not coming undone. Welding the nut to the shaft would prevent this.
Jeff:coo3l:

and how would you know the nut was tightening on a blown up turbo with no paint marks or anything denoting where the nut was?

[Tigchamp]

and how would you know the nut was tightening on a blown up turbo with no paint marks or anything denoting where the nut was?

Don't ask me Matey! Lol
I was just posting a solution to what was said that was happening;)
Read the whole thread
Jeff:coo3l:

[TurboSinceBirth]

and how would you know the nut was tightening on a blown up turbo with no paint marks or anything denoting where the nut was?

So far that's the only theory. It's either that or the nut came loose first because they were both separated when the turbo blew. The nut and shaft were not together. Given the threads are clean on the outside edge of the shaft, the other end was sheared, and the really deep grooves on the compressor wheel in the same direction of the compressor nut tightening down there isn't evidence pointing to something different. Given the fact that the turbo could have surged what's going to happen to a wheel spinning 160k rpms that suddenly slows down while the shaft is still trying to spin? We're only trying to overcome 3-4 ft/lbs at most which isn't much. It wouldn't be hard to believe the compressor wheel could spin on the shaft.

I really think it was surge/stall from the BOV. I ran up to 31.6 with the Greddy RS and plenty of 28 psi runs before this but given the circumstances and cross platform experiences I think it was more to blame. I'm one of the very few to push TD04s this hard and the others that have run over 30 psi you can count on one hand. They haven't had issues snapping shafts yet. I plan to run a bigger Tial QR and probably go for 35 psi if there's any hp gains above 30 psi.

[CoopKill]

Oh nice, guess what valve I have... lol I don't think the 11 blade will make much past 28-30psi anyway. We shall see. I may have to invest in a Tial before I push it up there.

[mb3000]

Might as well run two of them at this point. :dontknow2:

[donniekak]

Surging from to small of a bov doesn't break shafts, wot surge from a turbo spooling to fast under load can break shafts. To me honestly it looks like an inferior material was used for the shaft, and it snapped. The first china 16g copies had this same issue. That is why the newer china 16gs use t3 spec bearings, they increased the shaft size to make up for junk metal.

[TurboSinceBirth]

Surging from to small of a bov doesn't break shafts, wot surge from a turbo spooling to fast under load can break shafts. To me honestly it looks like an inferior material was used for the shaft, and it snapped. The first china 16g copies had this same issue. That is why the newer china 16gs use t3 spec bearings, they increased the shaft size to make up for junk metal.

Why have other platforms proven compressor surge from BOVs has caused failure then when the surge is bad enough? I'm not ruling out the material but at the same time I can't exactly point fingers to get me much of anywhere since it'll undoubtedly be all out of pocket.

[Ninja Performance]

Dan from Midwest Turbo called me today and we had a long conversation.

Sadly they haven't made the TD05 Stage4 turbo for almost a year. The market wasn't there (high cost) and then the supplier of the wheels stopped. So MTC doesn't have anything for me.

Trying to figure out if FP Greens (the new design) would be better than the PTE 5027s I have. Talking with them about that.

-Chris

[Ninja Performance]

And actually, All this is in an effort to find a better turbo setup for my car. My PTE 5027s are great, and make huge power. But by the time they are spooled 5500-6000 36psi, the heads and cams are done and so my power curve goes UP and right back down.

So I need a set of turbos that will spool a good big faster without loosing too much top end. Oh and a TD05 turbine housing.
Or I need to find a T3/4 manifold setup.

-Chris

[familyMAN]

Dan from Midwest Turbo called me today and we had a long conversation.

Sadly they haven't made the TD05 Stage4 turbo for almost a year. The market wasn't there (high cost) and then the supplier of the wheels stopped. So MTC doesn't have anything for me.

Interesting. In the initial hype threads they stated they partnered with MAP to get these wheels sourced and even used an evo dyno using a Map ef2 as marketing. MAP is still selling the EF2, 3 and 4; I believe the EF3 should have the identical compressor as the MTC stage 3 and 4, or damn close.



I still think the FP Greens will be great for you. Should out spool your 5027's plus make as much power (if not more since they are rated a hair higher lb/min). Only $999 right now. I'm sure Mike at FP can help you pick the right turbo though.

[familyMAN]

Why have other platforms proven compressor surge from BOVs has caused failure then when the surge is bad enough? I'm not ruling out the material but at the same time I can't exactly point fingers to get me much of anywhere since it'll undoubtedly be all out of pocket.

That's where it's nice to have parts already proven by the manufacturer and not be their R&D. No second guessing the failure. It's certainly exciting to have a new/unique part, but that excitement wears off pretty quickly if there is a problem.

[niterydr]

And actually, All this is in an effort to find a better turbo setup for my car. My PTE 5027s are great, and make huge power. But by the time they are spooled 5500-6000 36psi, the heads and cams are done and so my power curve goes UP and right back down.

So I need a set of turbos that will spool a good big faster without loosing too much top end. Oh and a TD05 turbine housing.
Or I need to find a T3/4 manifold setup.

-Chris

Call MAP they make the billet wheels for the TD05 setups. They can do something for you.
1-888-MAPerformance

I also know you put in crazy hours, I know the owner and many of the staff very well, pm me what you are looking for and I can pass your data along to them personally.

[AdamVR4]

Interesting. In the initial hype threads they stated they partnered with MAP to get these wheels sourced and even used an evo dyno using a Map ef2 as marketing. MAP is still selling the EF2, 3 and 4; I believe the EF3 should have the identical compressor as the MTC stage 3 and 4, or damn close.



I still think the FP Greens will be great for you. Should out spool your 5027's plus make as much power (if not more since they are rated a hair higher lb/min). Only $999 right now. I'm sure Mike at FP can help you pick the right turbo though.

Heh, the FP greens for DSM's are $2500 ported with internal gates. Is that the best bang for the buck upgrade out there for us TD05 guys beyond E16G's?

[niterydr]

Heh, the FP greens for DSM's are $2500 ported with internal gates. Is that the best bang for the buck upgrade out there for us TD05 guys beyond E16G's?

I had to go look at the pricing. They are having a sale, normally $1299 ea, so thats a savings of $600 for the pair. The FP Green has been kicking ass on DSM's for years.

Could always go with a pair of FP reds?

[familyMAN]

Heh, the FP greens for DSM's are $2500 ported with internal gates. Is that the best bang for the buck upgrade out there for us TD05 guys beyond E16G's?

Yeah I come up with $2488 off their site for a set with porting and internal gates. I'm not sure on what is done with the porting though. Probably gasket match on the turbine inlet. The greens have a 73mm exducer and I believe still use their own design and manufactured td06h4 turbine. They should be beastly! Spool will be compromised vs 16g, but I'm not sure how much. (depends on your setup also, cams, fuel, etc) Supposedly the aero on the td06h4 is great but weighs a bit more than a td06h. These are big turbines (turbine is bigger than a PTE 5858)

Here are the turbine specs:
TD06h and h4:
Inducer - 67.2mm
Exducer - 58.8mm

TD06SL2: (In my MTC stg2)
Inducer - 61mm
Exducer - 54mm

TD05h:
Inducer - 56mm
Exducer - 49.2mm



For pricing, you could get JB PTE turbos for less ($900) each, but I'm not sure about internal gates and I personally would go for the FP td05 products because of the number of them out there and you don't hear about manufacturer defect/failures. Plus, resale should be good to DSMs in case you want to sell/upgrade.

The only thing cheaper, would be to buy my MTC stg 2's ;). 69mm exducer comp and td06sl2 wheels. I wouldn't mind getting a set of Greens myself.

Red's would be my choice for a 3.5/3.7 setup and FP's recommendation for 900+awhp for that engine size when I contacted them. Just for a reference point Reds are similarly sized to a 5858 in both comp and turbine wheels.

[Ninja Performance]

I would need External gated. Waiting to hear back from FP about greens, had to send them 5027 info as they said they had no idea what was in it so they couldn't compare.

The PTE 5027:
Compressor wheel dia. 54mm - 50 trim
Oil cooled center section with journal bearings and 360deg thrust bearing.
T31 Turbine wheel I had .63 A/R housing but swapped over to .48 years ago for spoolup.


-Chris

[familyMAN]

I would need External gated.

I do as well, but I was answering Adam's question. He has an internal gate setup.

*The greens have a smaller comp exducer than your 5027 (if the limited info on interwebs is accurate). 73 vs 76. But have the HTA billet wheels so should be more efficient at higher PRs when you decide to swap to a 5bar:). "Wheel aero produces more flow per unit of inlet area than any other wheel it has been tested against to date, even outflowing copies of itself made by the klingon fringes of the market. The design very readily operates at PR in the 4:1 range"
*But a bigger turbine (again if accurate, but you probably already took actual measurements already, so this may be for the other guys watching)....
5027 54/65
Green 58/67

Maybe we should get a group buy going:D

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[AdamVR4]

Red's would be my choice for a 3.5/3.7 setup and FP's recommendation for 900+awhp for that engine size when I contacted them. Just for a reference point Reds are similarly sized to a 5858 in both comp and turbine wheels.

Why? You made the greens sound like they'll be laggy, haha...

[familyMAN]

Why? You made the greens sound like they'll be laggy, haha...

Almost 20% more displacement makes a big difference with spool:D. Plus the reds spool about as quick as a green when they have 2.0 pushing it. The differences in spool seem to be magnified with smaller displacement. Guys are running DR1200's on 3.0's though, so don't be a wimp and go for the reds!!

FP does have the 71HTA which has a td05h if you want good spool but more hp than your 16gs. Not sure how much the turbine will limit. FP would be able to answer much better than I could.

[AdamVR4]

Almost 20% more displacement makes a big difference with spool:D. Plus the reds spool about as quick as a green when they have 2.0 pushing it. The differences in spool seem to be magnified with smaller displacement. Guys are running DR1200's on 3.0's though, so don't be a wimp and go for the reds!!

FP does have the 71HTA which has a td05h if you want good spool but more hp than your 16gs. Not sure how much the turbine will limit. FP would be able to answer much better than I could.

You mean Mark with his DBB DR1200's?

I'm still leaning toward the simpler, cheaper green.

E16G = 42 lb/min ... 84 lb/min total ... 600-650 WHP on a 3S
FPG = 54 lb/min ... 108 lb/min total ... 28.6% increase in air flow ... Should be good for around 800-850 WHP, pretty much exactly what I want potential for...

[Ninja Performance]

You mean Mark with his DBB DR1200's?

I'm still leaning toward the simpler, cheaper green.

E16G = 42 lb/min ... 84 lb/min total ... 600-650 WHP on a 3S
FPG = 54 lb/min ... 108 lb/min total ... 28.6% increase in air flow ... Should be good for around 800-850 WHP, pretty much exactly what I want potential for...

Question is will they spool faster than my 5027s

-Chris

[familyMAN]

You mean Mark with his DBB DR1200's?

Yes Mark and Saf. (Both very low 10s on 3.0/3.1, DR1200)



I'm still leaning toward the simpler, cheaper green.

E16G = 42 lb/min ... 84 lb/min total ... 600-650 WHP on a 3S
FPG = 54 lb/min ... 108 lb/min total ... 28.6% increase in air flow ... Should be good for around 800-850 WHP, pretty much exactly what I want potential for...

Yep, have done the same math:D. My billets are probably around the 49 lb/min range, just slightly higher than a 68HTA. 98 lb/min total for ~771awhp, which matches jrinks 767awhp. (98lbs/min *10.5 = 1029 crank hp *.75 = 771awhp) Greens are a great price right now compared to anything else in the 7-900whp range; although I do think MTC has a set of stg 2's left on their website. It's actually a pic of my turbos though:)


Question is will they spool faster than my 5027s

-Chris

E95 is the unknown for me (you are spooling your turbos quicker than my car would, but I have e85, cams and less boost). Looking at dsms and evos, greens hit 25psi around 3800-4500, which is a big variance when you try to use it as a basis to compare to a 1.5l on displacement alone, but cams, fuel, IM, all make a big difference on spool on the 2.0s (of course affect how much power it holds though too).

I'm going to guesstimate about the same spool you have now, but more hp potential at the upper 30 boost levels you are running. No idea on boost recovery, which would be a huge help for you.

**I still think you would make over 800 on my turbos with wicked spool with as hard as you are willing to push your engine, turbos, stock cams and E95. You made 715 on just 16gs and you could probably get even more now with the tuning and mechanical changes you made!

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'd like to see you track the 16Gs to see if the big loss on the dyno actually makes the car slower in the 1/4 or not.

[Ninja Performance]

I'd like to see you track the 16Gs to see if the big loss on the dyno actually makes the car slower in the 1/4 or not.

While that would be a cool experiment, It is a lot of work to swap turbos in and out (as my 5027s are 2" outlet not DSM and EVOIIIs have the dsm bolt on outlet so my IC pipes would need modifying) plus the work to swap them, plus I don't have any EVOIIIs at the moment. So cost and work involved just to see what they would do would probably not be worth it. If I could find a turbo that spooled just as fast or faster than EVOIIIs and made a little more power, that would be what I would go with.

-Chris

[familyMAN]

Greens are prob too big then. 68HTA, 71HTA and MTC stage 1 or 2 will all spool nearly as quick as 16gs and make a bit more power 60-125whp over twin 16gs.

[VR4Drive92]

Try some BW 200's? or some EFRs? (If you want to spend the cash for it.) I could inquire for you on some pricing.

[J. Fast]

These are sweet and direct bolt on to any TD-05 mani kit. Kamak Dynamics converted to an anti surge cover this past year which is pretty slick. I like my billet 20g's. 20psi by 4300rpm at elevation. They really come allive at 30psi. They sound like a jet taking off :). Their Billet 25G-SL2 with the STS turbine wheel looks pretty dope. That thing is a monster... Good for 700hp on one, LOL! I believe that's the same turbo JRink is running ATM except his doesn't have the upgraded antisurge cover. Good turbo's! Mine came with a one year written and personally signed manufacturers backed warranty, a Harmonic Plot, a serialized VSR balance sheet, and a certified CFM flow chart with aero characteristics.

Have a looksee...



Billet 25G: https://apps.facebook.com/ecwid-shop/store/127793297309800?~~category=4744639&~~id=20239643&~~mode=product

Billet 20G: https://apps.facebook.com/ecwid-shop/store/127793297309800?~~category=4744639&~~id=20239640&~~mode=product

[Ninja Performance]

These are sweet and direct bolt on to any TD-05 mani kit. Kamak Dynamics converted to an anti surge cover this past year which is pretty slick. I like my billet 20g's. 20psi by 4300rpm at elevation. They really come allive at 30psi. They sound like a jet taking off :). Their Billet 25G-SL2 with the STS turbine wheel looks pretty dope. That thing is a monster... Good for 700hp on one, LOL! I believe that's the same turbo JRink is running ATM except his doesn't have the upgraded antisurge cover. Good turbo's! Mine came with a one year written and personally signed manufacturers backed warranty, a Harmonic Plot, a serialized VSR balance sheet, and a certified CFM flow chart with aero characteristics.

Have a looksee...



Billet 25G: https://apps.facebook.com/ecwid-shop/store/127793297309800?~~category=4744639&~~id=20239643&~~mode=product

Billet 20G: https://apps.facebook.com/ecwid-shop/store/127793297309800?~~category=4744639&~~id=20239640&~~mode=product

Look nice, kinda pricey compared to FP, and I am hoping they are from over seas because there are numerous grammatical and spelling errors on those Sale ads. As if english is not their first language and they had to translate.

-Chris

[gaylantvr4]

i secound the kamak turbos i have their verision of reds (td06sl2 60-1) with 8cm housing on my 3.5l. no results yet as i am still breaking in the motor.

[J. Fast]

Look nice, kinda pricey compared to FP, and I am hoping they are from over seas because there are numerous grammatical and spelling errors on those Sale ads. As if english is not their first language and they had to translate.

-Chris

They're a direct manufacturer, Chris. No middlemen. They have a huge facility overseas. I deal with their USA regional VP. I can pass you his contact info if you like.

Here's some R&D facility videos... KAMAK DYNAMICS - High Pressure Turbo Dyno Meter High Pressure Turbo Dyno Meter (http://www.kamakdynamics.com/profile/news_product_info.php?newsid=11) . There's ton's of good links on their web page. Have a look around on there for a lil bit. They currently build for MHI, IHI, Garret, and etc. Big draw at SEMA. A lot of USA based turbocharger companies are using their componenets ATM. I looked into the FP Greens awhile back and started a thread about it here. I decided to go with the Kamaks because they gave me everything in writing, 100% remove all doubt on the turbocharger specifications with test facility data on the turbocharger, No guessing.

[J. Fast]

http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy163/JFastMotorsports/img_20120724_183230.jpg

Totally legit, man! I believe the MTC were Kamaks, but I don't know. Their turbine wheels look really familiar... if you get what I'm sayin.

[Ninja Performance]

Made in China.

-Chris

[J. Fast]

They are not made in China. KAMAK DYNAMICS - Profile Profile (http://www.kamakdynamics.com/profile/news_product_info.php?newsid=2)

They are the R&D / turbo manufacturer for Hyundai Genesis. Also, Their Hyundai Turbo Charger is the current "cats meow" at Pikes Peak Hill Climb. Rhys Millen, know the guy well, big supporter. He's a big reason why I selected them. I spoke with him personally regarding their performance at altitude.


Mehh, there's always T3/T4 adapter plates which open a doorway to a whole new world :)

[wingnut]

They are not made in China. KAMAK DYNAMICS - Profile Profile (http://www.kamakdynamics.com/profile/news_product_info.php?newsid=2)


lol...because Taiwan is so very different :p

Even Taiwan agrees they are essentially part of China...

Taiwan ?agrees? it?s part of China: ex-US diplomat - Taipei Times (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2012/03/30/2003529046)

[stealthify]

lol...because Taiwan is so very different :p

Even Taiwan agrees they are essentially part of China...

Taiwan ?agrees? it?s part of China: ex-US diplomat - Taipei Times (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2012/03/30/2003529046)

There's a whoooole lot of politics there. More than that article addresses.

[Ninja Performance]

China, Taiwan, ROC. Same difference LOL.
Not that anything is wrong with China, there are good and bad manufacturers in China. But for China made (Taiwan) you would think they would be a bit more affordable.

-Chris

[VR4Drive92]

They are not made in China. KAMAK DYNAMICS - Profile Profile (http://www.kamakdynamics.com/profile/news_product_info.php?newsid=2)

They are the R&D / turbo manufacturer for Hyundai Genesis. Also, Their Hyundai Turbo Charger is the current "cats meow" at Pikes Peak Hill Climb. Rhys Millen, know the guy well, big supporter. He's a big reason why I selected them. I spoke with him personally regarding their performance at altitude.


Mehh, there's always T3/T4 adapter plates which open a doorway to a whole new world :)


Wait wait wait... Are you SUUURE your sources are correct? The OE design/manufacture of the Hyundai Genesis engine is a join venture of Hyundai, Mitsubishi and Chrysler... The turbos are TD04 13ts.... They all run similar engine architectures.

MITSUBISHI supplies the OE car's turbochargers. Kamak is a shop that rebuilds turbos and puts on new comp wheels. I doubt they do compressor wheel design/validation, in house.


What car are you referring to? I've only ever seen HKS turbos on the big modded Genesis and PM580.


Ninja edit: Sorry, I thought you meant OE. Obviously, you mean one off race team stuff.

[J. Fast]

Wait wait wait... Are you SUUURE your sources are correct? The OE design/manufacture of the Hyundai Genesis engine is a join venture of Hyundai, Mitsubishi and Chrysler... The turbos are TD04 13ts.... They all run similar engine architectures.

This is verbatum from their Web Profile I linked to.


...excitingly, in June 2009, KAMAK DYNAMICS started co-operating with Hyundai (The 4th largest automobile manufacture in the world) to jointly develop the turbocharger and related accessories for its new model car – Genesis (worldwide model).

They do compressor wheel design and validation. Here is their solid works for their billet 20G. I got it from Ken Wu. The guy who's name is on that spec sheet I posted earlier.

https://plus.google.com/photos/103668912708624918966/albums/5678024325668827089/5678024466913095874#photos/103668912708624918966/albums/5678024325668827089/5678024466913095874?pid=5678024466913095874&oid=103668912708624918966

What does Borg Warner have atm that's goodness and will fit in relatively stock location? I'm sure there's something brewing in there... :)

[AdamVR4]

So Kamak copied the FG green, may or may not have improved it, but releases some technical data..? I'm not seeing much reason not to support the TX based company (FP).

[Ninja Performance]

So Kamak copied the FG green, may or may not have improved it, but releases some technical data..? I'm not seeing much reason not to support the TX based company (FP).

Ouch if true, and yeah, I would support FP, a known DSM US shop for many years over a chinese up and comer manufacturer.

-Chris

[AdamVR4]

Ouch if true, and yeah, I would support FP, a known DSM US shop for many years over a chinese up and comer manufacturer.

-Chris


I was basing those conclusions on what J.Fat said. Perhaps I skimmed his posts too quickly. Regardless, I can drive a few hours north and work with FP... So where's the compelling reason to choose china? Are FP's turbos unproven? Are FP's turbos unreliable? Is FP not going to be here, supporting their products for years to come? Are FP's turbos more expensive than Kamak's? I think the answer to all 4 questions is "no"

[VR4Drive92]

They do compressor wheel design and validation. Here is their solid works for their billet 20G. I got it from Ken Wu. The guy who's name is on that spec sheet I posted earlier.

What does Borg Warner have atm that's goodness and will fit in relatively stock location? I'm sure there's something brewing in there... :)


Do they do Compressor performance testing? That's what I would be curious about. Having a solid, compressor map and turbine map for their prototype parts.

BorgWarner has some stuff that would fit and make power. Their gamma ti turbines in the EFR's are very nice. I have some selected for my car but that's for a different purpose than twins.

[Ninja Performance]

From what I have seen, EFRs are tits, but hugely expensive.

-Chris

[VR4Drive92]

From what I have seen, EFRs are tits, but hugely expensive.

-Chris


They can be but you can offset some of the cost with their internal gates and integrated BOV. But that would mostly benefit you on a new build from scratch.

They aren't tooo bad but they are more expensive than some of Garrett/Precision stuffs.

[VR4Drive92]

You could do two EFR6758s for like 1500 a piece with dual vband connections or a t25 turbine footprint that could flow enough for at least 700awhp Or go for more gusto and put on two 7064's for 1700ish a piece and really lay it on thick.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I have not had time to update my build/ hype thread or post all of my dyno results but for now i will say nothing was wrong with the engine. I will post up all of my results soon. Bills will for sure produce for HP than mine. i will be interrested to see his torque. Torque on the devs still was more than the dr650s on another car but the 12 blade set up makes these a great street turbo for a car not running extra ignition or meth. It's hp efficiency is the same as a mhi 19t HL. If someone is adding more items to build arsenal 750's are still the way to go. All of this said. Turbos kinda fall in line priced accordingly for power at this point.

When will you be posting up all the results? Curious to see the results.

[Alex3000gt]

China, Taiwan, ROC. Same difference LOL.
Not that anything is wrong with China, there are good and bad manufacturers in China. But for China made (Taiwan) you would think they would be a bit more affordable.

-Chris

Taiwan is the Republic of China.

Mainland China is the People's Republic of China.

[markoverclock]

Dont worry their is a new option coming soon. Replacement turbos with best of everything, 9blade HL, Custom billet compressor wheels, Monster thrust bearings. Testing out on Jojo car in a month or 2 tops as we are about done with the engine assembly. (build is on other forum) ill have im start a thread on it here.

[R/T93]

Another oversized 1%er turbo? Ill pass....

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

What is wrong with DR750s again?

[FeaRpb]

:popcorn:

[R/T93]

What is wrong with DR750s again?

Not good 'nuff apparently.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Not good 'nuff apparently.

too many proven results I guess

that's the internet for you

[FeaRpb]

DR-750's suck

[Greg E]

Its all Rays fault. He keeps cheating Dyno numbers.

[R/T93]

Its all Rays fault. He keeps cheating Dyno numbers.

13t lies!!!

[CoopKill]

Nothing, nothing at all. If what I have going does not work out, it looks like I will have over 6k into a dr750 venture in the end...

[AdamVR4]

What is wrong with DR750s again?

Since you're clearly asking me about my particular situation :p

$2500 for a pair of internally gated, ported, FP Greens (on sale)... ~1075 hp worth of turbo
$3200 for a pair of internally gated, ported, FP Reds ... ~1200 hp worth of turbo
$3600 for a pair of internally gated, ported, DR750's ... ~800 hp worth of turbo

But seriously, if I had a TD04 car, I doubt I'd ever venture beyond the billet DR650's. Proven 10-second turbo for a cool $1000 less than the 750's. How much more AWHP are the 750's actually making than DR650's on gasoline and stock cams?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Since you're clearly asking me about my particular situation :p

$2500 for a pair of internally gated, ported, FP Greens (on sale)... ~1075 hp worth of turbo
$3200 for a pair of internally gated, ported, FP Reds ... ~1200 hp worth of turbo
$3600 for a pair of internally gated, ported, DR750's ... ~800 hp worth of turbo

But seriously, if I had a TD04 car, I doubt I'd ever venture beyond the billet DR650's. Proven 10-second turbo for a cool $1000 less than the 750's. How much more AWHP are the 750's actually making than DR650's on gasoline and stock cams?

I'm sure you know, but I'm just comparing them to "XXX Companies Super Billet Turbos!" that will be the end all, be all of TD04 and then either fail to make power,blow up, or even just make as much as DR750s did anyway.

On pump gas I'm sure the 750s aren't good for more then 20-30HP over 650s, but on e85 or race we are talking about 100+

I simply can't imagine wanting to run pump with a turbo like that, so for those folks sure get tim's billet turbos or dr650s.

To be honest since I've switched to e85 I do regret slightly just not getting a set of dr800/900s just because I can run practically any boost now and I'm sure eventually they won't be enough. Originally I expected to run meth because I was just stubborn about e85 for some reason. After trying it I'll never go back as long as it is for sale.

Oh and for me it was either let's get a 3.5, heads and cams to try to make good power on 93 or run a stock longblock with practically the same results on e85. It just didn't make sense to me.

[AdamVR4]

I'm sure you know, but I'm just comparing them to "XXX Companies Super Billet Turbos!" that will be the end all, be all of TD04 and then either fail to make power,blow up, or even just make as much as DR750s did anyway.

On pump gas I'm sure the 750s aren't good for more then 20-30HP over 650s, but on e85 or race we are talking about 100+

I simply can't imagine wanting to run pump with a turbo like that, so for those folks sure get tim's billet turbos or dr650s.




Woah there, I didn't say "pump". I said gasoline (still includes race gas, last I checked) and stock cams. Is there really a big gap between billet DR650's and DR750's in that very common scenario?

I'm still being stubborn about E85 :p

[NOMIEZVR4]

I'm a believer of DR turbos now after what I've been though...

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Woah there, I didn't say "pump". I said gasoline (still includes race gas, last I checked) and stock cams. Is there really a big gap between billet DR650's and DR750's in that very common scenario?

I'm still being stubborn about E85 :p

eric made just over 600 on 94 + meth. presumably he could do the same with c16, so I guess I don't see what you are asking. Have dr650s made much over 500 wheel on any fuel yet?

[R/T93]

eric made just over 600 on 94 + meth. presumably he could do the same with c16, so I guess I don't see what you are asking. Have dr650s made much over 500 wheel on any fuel yet?

Didn't Ray make 550+ on the 650's when he ran 10.98 last year?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

as far as that goes HL 19ts can produce about the same results anyway, but I'd rather have the faster spool.

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Didn't Ray make 550+ on the 650's when he ran 10.98 last year?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

I don't remember. Any way you slice it 750s have 50 to 100 awhp advantage all things being equaled. I'm not trying to say 650s aren't great, they are a great bang for the buck. I'd just not want to have to rip the knob off the boost controller to make 550

[CoopKill]

That FP green hp quote is crank, yes? Where do they spool?

[Primus101]

I'm a believer of DR turbos now after what I've been though...

I'm a non-believer of DR turbos now after what I've been through......

[Blue91SL]

Subbed for data.
This thread is teaching me a good bit about where I need to be.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I'm a non-believer of DR turbos now after what I've been through......
Explain

[wingnut]

^^^ ditto, curious to hear...

[Primus101]

I picked up a new pair of DR500's directly from DR in 2010 for my full rebuild.
My front spilled it's guts bigtime @350 miles. They were contaminated with .004"-.007" steel blasting shot, which subsequently contaminated my oiling system-
Cost me plenty to rectify.

[CoopKill]

Remember the story. :(

[TurboSinceBirth]

DR has been through quite a few turbo shops because of various issues to get where he's at now. I know the quality is there now on turbos especially looking at the 950s I've got. Hundreds of people haven't had any issues so it's not like it's going to make a difference when the products are proven.

This thread has already gone OT. A billet TD04 with a few mm bigger compressor wheel comparable to the GT 2863 in size or flow in a larger compressor cover with upgraded thrust bearings and a 9 blade HL turbine wheel sounds better but I wonder about going too big on the compressor side. Sure it could in theory support 700-750AWHP that is probably out of reach for DR-750s but looking back at the failure rates of GT-368SX turbos with a huge 60-1 T3 compressor wheel on a TD04 HL shaft they couldn't make more than 22-24 psi without breaking the shaft due to the large compressor wheel on a small turbine side.

I'm stuck at a crossroad unsure what to do. My front turbo is going to start from scratch and from the damage there's no possibly way to tell the sequence of events on what failed first if it was material or bearing failure. I need new compressor wheels which aren't quite as much as $400 like I originally thought. Dan said the run of wheels done cost $190 each so I need to ask you Bill and also Josh if you want any parts for your turbos; otherwise, it'll probably be around $3-350 per wheel for a replacement. My only 9 blade HL option is the Kamak/Kinugawa 9 blade turbine wheels which another builder will be using so I may give it a shot due to not wanting to go to a 12 blade wheel. I should probably go ahead and rebuild the turbos, then decide whether to run them for the summer or sell and proceed with a single turbo that's the goal one way or another. I'd probably rather have my car running on TD04s than sit most of the year it has already done.

[Ninja Performance]

After researching (as I always do) I am staying with my PTE 5027s .48 A/R turbos.
FP stop responding to my tech emails
Midwest has nothing

And I really don't want to spend buckets of money.

I have a number of things I am going to do to my setup to create better efficiency with what I have.
I am staying with my PTE TD05 hot side 5027s .48/R, Stock heads and stock cams. I May pocket port the valves.

I am going to change the WG setup, since it is the WORST on the market. WG exhaust should dump back at the shallowist angle possible (45 degree good, 30 degree or less is better) and 18" or more away from the turbine wheel. This keeps back pressure and turbulence at the turbine wheel down which creates a better flowing/higher efficiency engine/head. It all back tracks. Mine are setup the way they were originally made, WG dumps back into the exhaust front-about 6" away from turbine wheel and at a 90 degree angle, the rear-RIGHT AT THE TURBINE WHEEL and 90 degree.

It is a horrible and as inefficient as it can be. So That is getting changed. That should greatly increase engine and turbo efficiency especially at higher RPMs.

Should have this done in a few weeks. Just have to get caught up. We have 4 customer cars and every time one gets picked up another gets dropped off. I can't imagine what it would be like if we advertised and or trolled for service work. They just keep coming LOL.

-Chris

[VR4Drive92]

After researching (as I always do) I am staying with my PTE 5027s .48 A/R turbos.
FP stop responding to my tech emails
Midwest has nothing

And I really don't want to spend buckets of money.

I have a number of things I am going to do to my setup to create better efficiency with what I have.
I am staying with my PTE TD05 hot side 5027s .48/R, Stock heads and stock cams. I May pocket port the valves.

I am going to change the WG setup, since it is the WORST on the market. WG exhaust should dump back at the shallowist angle possible (45 degree good, 30 degree or less is better) and 18" or more away from the turbine wheel. This keeps back pressure and turbulence at the turbine wheel down which creates a better flowing/higher efficiency engine/head. It all back tracks. Mine are setup the way they were originally made, WG dumps back into the exhaust front-about 6" away from turbine wheel and at a 90 degree angle, the rear-RIGHT AT THE TURBINE WHEEL and 90 degree.

It is a horrible and as inefficient as it can be. So That is getting changed. That should greatly increase engine and turbo efficiency especially at higher RPMs.

Should have this done in a few weeks. Just have to get caught up. We have 4 customer cars and every time one gets picked up another gets dropped off. I can't imagine what it would be like if we advertised and or trolled for service work. They just keep coming LOL.

-Chris


That will be sweet! I'm eager to see the difference!

Porsche used to keep the wastegated flow FAR FAR AWAY from the turbine. On the front engine cars, they would re introduce the wastegate flow about 2 feet in front of the rear diff. Way after their main cat.

[Armond30]

I am probably a bit late to the party, but I run twin new FP greens on my car (3.0). I upgraded from my td06sl2-20g 6cm tothese. They are td06h4-76hta (ccustom billet 3076 compressor wheels made by FP) all shoved in the 20 housings and the 6cm turbine housings. I am sure this setup will support 1k plus HP. My car is a street car. I really reallylike how the car spoiled with the 20gs. Not so much with these turbos. The car starts to make serious power around 5100 rpm. The 20gs had the same pickup around 4600 rpm. It is VERY NOTICEABLE. I had to upgrade when I did because my old turbos god trashed from bearing material jamming up to the oil channels, but I wish I could go back to the sl2s. Even if a standard tdo6h wheel would spool better, I would be happy with that. The car is VERY laggy. It probably wouldn't be as bad with a 3.5, but for a 3.0 street car, highly reccomend against it......unless you are hell bent on making 1000+ wheel HP.

[familyMAN]

FP lists greens as 73mm comp and reds as 76mm. Yours sound more like reds. I would def not pair reds with a 3.0. I had suggested greens a few pages back for a 3.0 and red for 3.5.

Sounds like you aren't running the FP housings either? So all the lag without the results unless they ported the crap out of your turbine housing and even then my understanding is its inferior to the FP td05 turbine housings.

Edit: props for going for it!! Just add some displacement and you will be rockin!

[familyMAN]

Chris, since you are keeping your setup mostly unchanged, you should also try a big plenum intake mani with Q45 TB. Bet you pick up mid and high end. Up to you how much you want to shorten runners. Easy and cheap to swap back and forth and Virtual Dyno. Just use stock NA runners and build from there. Looks like you have a source now for custom parts since you are coming up with new items....this is another one for you:) buy some d shape aluminum and have your guy make some flanges and weld to mani. Bolt on q45 and your IAC block and done.

[Armond30]

I only know a little more about the turbos than Robert Young told me when I sent them to him....they are new style greens shoved into trust housings. Not reds ( unless they have changed the green formula since I bought them which is highly likely. I think for a while they called them blacks......who knows.). I still wouldn't reccomend them. The more I think about it, the more I wish I had twin 9 blade td06sl2 billet 20gs with 8 cm housings. I have a feeling THAT would give me the responce and power I want from the car.

[TurboSinceBirth]

I only know a little more about the turbos than Robert Young told me when I sent them to him....they are new style greens shoved into trust housings. Not reds ( unless they have changed the green formula since I bought them which is highly likely. I think for a while they called them blacks......who knows.). I still wouldn't reccomend them. The more I think about it, the more I wish I had twin 9 blade td06sl2 billet 20gs with 8 cm housings. I have a feeling THAT would give me the responce and power I want from the car.

I considered the Billet 20Gs with a 9 blade TD06SL2 turbine since it would be a good match to the compressor inducer specs but I don't really know how good they would perform in a twin configuration. FP HTA68 turbos are bigger than a 20G wheel and made 740AWHP on a heavily modded 3.5L.

[familyMAN]

Billet 20g with 6sl2 isn't much different than my turbos. Perfect mid size turbo that works on both 3.5 and 3.0. Hope to get some higher boost numbers soon when I can stop breaking things.