Tuning 19t's on 93 pump

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Important parts of my setup:

IPS 19t-L wheels
PTE 550cc
FMIC (PMP/CXracing)
straight 93 pump
coppers gapped to .024"
stock MAF (have an evo maf waiting to go in)
flash ecu

I'm currently at 18psi with timing ramping up to 19*, any more boost or timing, and it knocks. AFR's start off at mid-high 11's and work down to low 10's over 5.5k. Any less fuel up top and it knocks.

Virtual dyno is showing about 385whp/415wtq (Mustang) on a cold run, less on hot runs (cheap intercooler). A couple questions:

Should I expect to be able to tune more out of it on straight 93 pump?

Would I be better off with less boost and more timing?

Lastly, why does the stock timing map drop so much in the middle of the RPM band, and then drastically rise? I tuned that out to be a smoother transition (less drastic), should I not have?

Any help from the guru's would be greatly appreciated by this noobie. :)

Also, assuming VD is accurate, what kind of trap speed would you expect from those numbers (full weight)?

[NOMIEZVR4]

Nice to see you making progress.

High teens boost seems to be about the limit for pump gas.

Stock timing map drops at peak torque then rises again to compensate for the POS 9b's that cant hold any boost to redline. :) Still on the stock maps or have you started tinkering with them?

You should trap in bpu supra territory..115+mph traps is my guess.

Keep this thread posted, should be interesting.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Nice to see you making progress.

High teens boost seems to be about the limit for pump gas.

Stock timing map drops at peak torque then rises again to compensate for the POS 9b's that cant hold any boost to redline. :) Still on the stock maps or have you started tinkering with them?

You should trap in bpu supra territory..115+mph traps is my guess.

Keep this thread posted, should be interesting.

Thanks, I've messed with the maps. Mostly to get rid of knock, haven't really added any power with them over the stock maps, but they're safer at the same power level. I'm sort of at a wall as far as power, wondering if I'm doing something wrong or if I should do something different.

[DK77]

What is the number with the dynojet correction?

I think you're doing pretty good with the L exhaust and stock MAF... you also didn't state if you have any exhaust mods. You could pick up quite a bit if you have cats and go catless. I also think a less restrictive MAF will help some too. I don't know if the Evo ones are less restrictive or just read more airflow.

[mb3000]

I'd say you're around the PSI limit for TD04's on pure pump. If you're looking to change it up I would suggest less boost and more timing.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

What is the number with the dynojet correction?

I think you're doing pretty good with the L exhaust and stock MAF... you also didn't state if you have any exhaust mods. You could pick up quite a bit if you have cats and go catless. I also think a less restrictive MAF will help some too. I don't know if the Evo ones are less restrictive or just read more airflow.

The general consensus is 11-12% more for Dynojet, but it varies quite a bit depending on the dyno and it's operator, and I can't seem to find the Dynojet correction button in VDR. So for arguments sake, 10% more for Dynojet would be around 425awhp/455awtq. Won't really know until I see what it traps when I get to the track, I'm hoping for 118-120mph.

I already have no cats, Stillen dp into M2 catback (tanabe knockoff), rear precat gutted.


I'd say you're around the PSI limit for TD04's on pure pump. If you're looking to change it up I would suggest less boost and more timing.

I guess that's what I'll try once I get this boost level to where I know it's not getting any better. Haven't messed with the mid range too much, and I want to see how much timing I can get away with there. Then do less boost, more timing and see what yields better results.

[NOMIEZVR4]

IMO I wouldn't screw around with shitty pump gas. Get yourself some race gas and the equation becomes quite simple.
1. Raise the boost as you please...:D
2. Make your ignition timing map more aggressive to meet your needs

Enjoy 500whp :)

You're a smart guy, obviously you still have to keep safety parameters in check such as knock, afr, etc...but that will give you a fast car. I'm excited to compare numbers with you as we have similar setups. :)

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

IMO I wouldn't screw around with shitty pump gas. Get yourself some race gas and the equation becomes quite simple.
1. Raise the boost as you please...:D
2. Make your ignition timing map more aggressive to meet your needs

Enjoy 500whp :)

You're a smart guy, obviously you still have to keep safety parameters in check such as knock, afr, etc...but that will give you a fast car. I'm excited to compare numbers with you as we have similar setups. :)

I like shitty pump gas lol. Something more pure about it to me I guess. I'm not building this to be the fastest around or to hit 10's. I just want a built right, 120mph 1/4 mile, sub 4-second 0-60 VR4 that I can DD, pass inspection, and go to the gas station to fill up.

I will be going E85 in the future, but I'll probably never use C16. It would make me feel dirty since this is a DD, not a race car. :p

[DK77]

E85 is awesome stuff... my 95 will be running on E85 assuming the shop ever finishes the motor.

[aaronatstate]

I like shitty pump gas lol. Something more pure about it to me I guess. I'm not building this to be the fastest around or to hit 10's. I just want a built right, 120mph 1/4 mile, sub 4-second 0-60 VR4 that I can DD, pass inspection, and go to the gas station to fill up.

I will be going E85 in the future, but I'll probably never use C16. It would make me feel dirty since this is a DD, not a race car. :p

If you are thinking of switching to E85 in the future, I would recommend just doing it right away if possible. I had the same issues as you, but with my 13t's (though my compression ratio is close to 9:1). Couldnt turn the boost up, add timing, or lean it out without getting knock and I was only getting 13.5 psi or so max without knock. And even then it would only do that for a run or too before it got hot. We only have 91 octane here though. I switched to E85 about a month ago, and I am now running 20+ degrees of timing up top, with lots of timing in the max torque range, ~12:1 gas equivelant AFRs, and 16 pounds of boost. Best part is I almost never have knock. Only once in a great while.

If E85 is readily available in your area, I'd say switch now, you wont regret it. My only regret is not doing it sooner haha

[NOMIEZVR4]

Without racegas or e85 touching 500whp is gonna be a mission. Not saying it can't be done but I can't even recall from the top of m head any pure pump 10 sec cars with monnet and pampena being the exceptions. Any tdo4 cars make more than 500whp on pump?

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

500whp isn't my plan, nor is 10s. I'm after a 120mph trap, which may take E85 to get but I want to see how far I can get with pump 93. If I get there on 93 I won't need to go E85. That's the level of power I want the car to be at reliably.

[Ange]

isn't 550cc's too small injectors for that boost and those turbos???

[NOMIEZVR4]

120mph in a full weight vr4 will require 475 to 500awhp

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

isn't 550cc's too small injectors for that boost and those turbos???

Apparently not. IDC's max around 70%. That's pig rich too. I do run more fuel pressure than stock so maybe that makes the difference.


120mph in a full weight vr4 will require 475 to 500awhp

Gotcha, I figured that was your point. E85 is in the plans, but I'll be maxing out my abilities on pump first! :D

[TurboSinceBirth]

Bob did over 500AWHP on pump with 19Ts but he had DR Stage III heads and a bunch of other mods. Dale may have done it on pump too although on a different fuel he definitely surpassed it. 500AWHP on pump isn't a run of the mill number to hit on pump so it would be tough. I think you're about at the limit at 17-18 psi. Dropping a few lbs of boost and adding some timing may give you a little more power but I doubt it'll do much. You'll probably have to wait to switch to E85. The torque increase of the ethanol, extra smoothness running, and higher boost is very worth it. You'll love it when you switch. You can even experiment with some partial ethanol mixes if you wanted. With 550s I think I only ran 17 psi on E40 before running out with 368SX turbos. 720s got me to 22-23 psi on E40-50 so I ended up at 1000s which I have maxed out again on E70 above 30 psi. Lol.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Bob did over 500AWHP on pump with 19Ts but he had DR Stage III heads and a bunch of other mods. Dale may have done it on pump too although on a different fuel he definitely surpassed it. 500AWHP on pump isn't a run of the mill number to hit on pump so it would be tough. I think you're about at the limit at 17-18 psi. Dropping a few lbs of boost and adding some timing may give you a little more power but I doubt it'll do much. You'll probably have to wait to switch to E85. The torque increase of the ethanol, extra smoothness running, and higher boost is very worth it. You'll love it when you switch. You can even experiment with some partial ethanol mixes if you wanted. With 550s I think I only ran 17 psi on E40 before running out with 368SX turbos. 720s got me to 22-23 psi on E40-50 so I ended up at 1000s which I have maxed out again on E70 above 30 psi. Lol.

Yeah I'm pretty sure I'm very near my limit as is, now just trying to see which is the best way to squeeze all the power out I can (safely). More to learn for myself than anything else.

The Montero MAF is going in tomorrow, along with an Evo MAP to log boost. Probably won't make any difference since I don't think I'm past the stock MAF limit, but we'll see.

[J-Groove]

I'm working on a similar build with similar power goals.

I don't know why, but I like the idea of staying on 93 pump gas. I may do a secondary map for use with race gas or E85 in the future for more power. But I too want to try and hit that 500 awhp number on 93 with stock heads.

19t-HL
EVO 560cc
AEM FPR to bump the 560 up to 600cc
EVO MAP
OhhNoo Duel Core FMIC
Aeromotive fuel pump
straight 93 pump
coppers gapped to .024"
Montaro MAF
Gutted precats
Random Tech high flow cat
Borla cat back
flash ecu

To get that bit more fuel you may be able to pick up some EVO 560cc injectors for less than you can sell your PTE 550cc for. You will be money ahead with a bigger injector. With flash ECU you can make the EVO injectors run perfectly.

Good luck and keep up the updates.

-John

[Ange]

By the way, I have the same injectors. Do you have the correct latency values for them?

I couldn't find them on the net so I emailed PTE for them. So these should be the correct ones:

ms@voltage:
1.63ms@8.7v
1.00ms@10.4v
0.80ms@12.2v
0.70ms@13.9v
0.60ms@15.6v
0.56ms@17.4v
0.56ms@19.1v
0.53ms@20.9v

[DK77]

One of the DR750 guys put down 440whp on pure pump gas on Ray's dyno this weekend, with a lot of other mods as well, so 500whp on stock heads is going to be a real feat.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

By the way, I have the same injectors. Do you have the correct latency values for them?

I couldn't find them on the net so I emailed PTE for them. So these should be the correct ones:

ms@voltage:
1.63ms@8.7v
1.00ms@10.4v
0.80ms@12.2v
0.70ms@13.9v
0.60ms@15.6v
0.56ms@17.4v
0.56ms@19.1v
0.53ms@20.9v


Thanks I'll compare those to the values I entered, I found a post on here by PTE where he gave those, I'll make sure they're the same.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

It's been as humid and hot as it ever gets around here the past few days, so I've been trying to tune as much safe power as I can since it's a worst-case weather scenario. I decided to go with Dynojet numbers on VD since that's what most people here are comparing with. If anyone has their logs from the Pampena dyno day final numbers, please post them up, I'd like to compare some things.

At first I started advancing timing in the 2500-5000RPM range to see what it did. It more-less made the turbo's spool slower and didn't really net any appreciable gains. Dropped it back down there, smoothed the 4000-7000RPM range, while adding some timing up top. Currently I'm running 19-20psi with timing ramping from 11*@3500RPM to 20*@6300RPM. No knock, so I still have some playing around to do.

Here's the VDR graph and one of the logs. Keep in mind if you're looking at the wideband numbers, the actual wideband AFR is .3 lower than the logged. Haven't been able to scale it to be spot on with the AEM UEGO provided numbers. Both runs are heat soaked:

442whp/450wtq

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/twizted_3kgt/5-22-13VDR_zps47a0d47c.jpg~original (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/twizted_3kgt/media/5-22-13VDR_zps47a0d47c.jpg.html)

Question, is "True Timing" the actual timing advance after whatever corrections the ECU does?

[Greg E]

Ignore that true timing log point. That's for the 91/92 guys.

Use the normal timing request.

[Greg E]

You should also start your "Dyno pull" around 2250-2500rpms and log foot to the floor all the way to redline.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

You should also start your "Dyno pull" around 2250-2500rpms and log foot to the floor all the way to redline.

Indeed, but I'm usually limited by traffic conditions, so I do what I can. I have a few logs with those conditions, no real difference from what I'm seeing with these logs. STM's dyno which is 20 minutes away would be ideal, but I'll wait until E85 for that.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Here's a good full pull:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/twizted_3kgt/5-22-13VDR2jpg_zpsf790e534.jpg~original (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/twizted_3kgt/media/5-22-13VDR2jpg_zpsf790e534.jpg.html)

[DK77]

Keep in mind also that you have numbers that are not corrected for weather conditions. So there might be some difference there.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Keep in mind also that you have numbers that are not corrected for weather conditions. So there might be some difference there.

Drops 4hp/4tq weather corrected for the conditions from today, didn't think it was worth noting considering these are just VD numbers, not real dyno numbers (which are also not worth much to me :p).

So, my load numbers are around 210 max for this power level, however, I've seen up to 235 (and more hp) on previous mostly-clean runs. It was cooler then so I just assumed it's because of the temperature? Is that correct? IIRC it was while running less boost also.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

More progress. 20-21psi peak, tapering to 18psi from 6-7000rpm (as far as I can tell from the corner of my eye). Need to get the correct MAP sensor this time so I can log boost. All quiet as far as knock, AFR's still where they should be.

443whp/457wtq (w/ weather correction this time)

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/twizted_3kgt/443whp-457wtq--20psi--18psi2redline-74F--20DT_zpsfdb2de03.jpg~original (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/twizted_3kgt/media/443whp-457wtq--20psi--18psi2redline-74F--20DT_zpsfdb2de03.jpg.html)

Still playing with it.

[Greg E]

You'll find that when you know your engines true airflow it doesn't matter what PSI you run. Boost gauges are pretty much useless.

[DK77]

I think you're doing pretty damned good for L exhaust wheels and your mods.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

You'll find that when you know your engines true airflow it doesn't matter what PSI you run. Boost gauges are pretty much useless.

I'm not quite clear on what you mean. I know the load numbers increase with power, is that the airflow you're referring to? Or the hz numbers? I guess I'm not really tuning anything based on boost level so it really is just an eye-candy number.


I think you're doing pretty damned good for L exhaust wheels and your mods.

Thanks, it is a pretty fresh motor. 11k since the rebuild, so about 13k on the turbos I bought used.

I think I'm tapped out as far as boost. I gave the Hallman another 1/4 turn after that last one, started knocking 5 counts mid-rpm range. It was a little leaner than it likes (high 10's instead of mid), so I added fuel there. Knock went away for 3rd gear pulls, but was still present for 1st and 2nd gear. It just didn't like that boost level and wasn't making any more power. So turned it back down, all quiet again. I'll see if there's any timing left to give mid to top range, and I think that'll be the pump gas tune I go to the track with. Hoping for at least high 11's at 118. She is a heavy pig though, so I wouldn't be very disappointed if it's slower. I think it definitely has an 11 in it though. After I get some good runs in at the track, which shouldn't be difficult with chrome features :D, I'll start the process of going E85. Unless of course I happen to reach my goal for some reason.

[Greg E]

Load numbers match your torque curve. HZ matches your horse power.

Boost tells you nothing. ;)

[NOMIEZVR4]

Hey Rick, try a pump/e85 mix..it won't dissapoint you. I'm not sure on the exact ratios but something in the ballpark of 5 gallons of 93 and onegallon of e85..that should net you another 2 to 3 lbs of boost and possibly 30whp...

Also get us some in car vids!

[NOMIEZVR4]

Load numbers match your torque curve. HZ matches your horse power.

Boost tells you nothing. ;)

I can't wait to get my car up and running so I can apply your tuning philosophy...I'm super excited

[Greg E]

I can't wait to get my car up and running so I can apply your tuning philosophy...I'm super excited

Knowing this kind of data can be useful to see the gains from individual mods like porting or aftermarket pipes. It can even be handy for tuning cam gears. ;)

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Man, you guys really want me to put some e85 in lol.

[NOMIEZVR4]

E85 is the sheet...

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

I'd call it a day without more octain.

[TurboSinceBirth]

Ethanol will put a big silly grin on your face. :D 25-30 psi is a whole new ball game. Under 20 psi feels like a joke afterwards so you've been warned before you're addicted. :p

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Just a little more playing with timing (famous last words) before I'm done with tuning on 93oct. Then at least 1 track visit. Then I'll be able to move on to E85.

I still haven't braced this bell-housing so I'm cringing every time I launch. If I break another one it's probably going to collect dust for a while, since my priorities have recently shifted to something very small, but very important ;) I figure E85 would put me closer to 600whp, so 430-450whp is probably good for me until I get that re-done. However, launches are MUCH nicer to the drivetrain with launch control than the more-less clutch drops I used to do. With boost on the line I can let the clutch take most of the abuse, and it's from a lower RPM. Still, that's my #1 concern and the only weak point I know of.

Plus, I'm the guy that was pretty happy with a BPU VR4 for 7+ years. This power level is great for me. If only I hadn't driven that 2013 Audi S8, I would still be totally ignorantly blissful.

Side note, it was about 45*F tonight, felt like it added 50hp (raw VDR numbers were over 500, corrected were exactly what they were before, love that program). Too bad I couldn't get my air temps that low on a hot day.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Just a mild update to do what no one seems to do, post my timing table!

Still curious about less boost - more timing, but want some track numbers on this setup first.

Here's the high-octane timing map I'm using at 20psi on 19t-L's with straight 93 octane (3rd gear 20psi, spikes 21-22 in 1st/2nd), low-octane is a mirror of this minus 3 degrees, 0 (read ZERO) knock:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/twizted_3kgt/TimingMap20psi_zps5f3f7317.jpg~original (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/twizted_3kgt/media/TimingMap20psi_zps5f3f7317.jpg.html)

Anyone who may be interested in trying to plug these numbers into their similar setup, you can't. But this should give a general idea of what these turbo's might like. Less timing than stock up top and a smooth progression from spool to redline. This works for me and is right for my setup, but your setup might like something different!

Any thoughts on the map?

[NOMIEZVR4]

When are you going to the track? More importantly, when are we getting some videos? :)

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

When are you going to the track? More importantly, when are we getting some videos? :)

Track will be soon. I'm thinking if not this week, then in the next couple weeks. What makes it a pain is the track I always go to changed their schedule and aren't open on my day off anymore.

Videos is a good question, I need a camera mount or something. I'll get on that too.

[amicus]

Maybe consider adding 50/50 meth injection. I have similar mods and my timing is similar to yours but I run 11.2 AFR at 22lbs on pump gas without knock. I doubt I could run more than 17-18lbs without it.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Maybe consider adding 50/50 meth injection. I have similar mods and my timing is similar to yours but I run 11.2 AFR at 22lbs on pump gas without knock. I doubt I could run more than 17-18lbs without it.

Good info, thanks.

[KeithMac]

I run TD04-16g turbos, on straight petrol I really strugged without yanking a lot of timing out, I ran E85 when it was available in the UK and it was excellent, hit 26 psi no knock on high timing.

I now mix 20% methanol in tank, can hit 30psi without timing pulled and it absolutely flys!.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

I run TD04-16g turbos, on straight petrol I really strugged without yanking a lot of timing out, I ran E85 when it was available in the UK and it was excellent, hit 26 psi no knock on high timing.

I now mix 20% methanol in tank, can hit 30psi without timing pulled and it absolutely flys!.

Yeah I wouldn't expect to be able to run much timing on pump gas. Were you unable to go further than 26psi on E85? I would think it would have similar capabilities to a methanol mix.

[KeithMac]

I was fuel pump limited at that time, then when I redid my fuel system they stopped doing e85!.

Seriously, 25psi with proper timing on e85 will be night and day!, just make sure you have enough pump and injector. .

[Stealth_RT]

Just a mild update to do what no one seems to do, post my timing table!

Still curious about less boost - more timing, but want some track numbers on this setup first.

Here's the high-octane timing map I'm using at 20psi on 19t-L's with straight 93 octane (3rd gear 20psi, spikes 21-22 in 1st/2nd), low-octane is a mirror of this minus 3 degrees, 0 (read ZERO) knock:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/twizted_3kgt/TimingMap20psi_zps5f3f7317.jpg~original (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/twizted_3kgt/media/TimingMap20psi_zps5f3f7317.jpg.html)

Anyone who may be interested in trying to plug these numbers into their similar setup, you can't. But this should give a general idea of what these turbo's might like. Less timing than stock up top and a smooth progression from spool to redline. This works for me and is right for my setup, but your setup might like something different!

Any thoughts on the map?

Why the dip in timing at 2500 rpm starting at the 140 load level? Done for a specific reason, or just leftover from the stock timing map?

[Chris@Rvengeperformance]

Why the dip in timing at 2500 rpm starting at the 140 load level? Done for a specific reason, or just leftover from the stock timing map?

the stock map is that way. I raised it 3 or 4 degrees and it was knock prone, so I backed it off to 2 over stock. That is a lot of load for that rpm.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Yep, I don't come close to hitting that area of the map so it's unchanged from stock.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Got an update to this thread, got to the track finally.

Turns out I suck at driving now, so I only got 2 half decent passes. On a 1.9 60' I ran 8.0@90mph in the 1/8 finishing out with a 12.44@113.3mph. This was at 18-19psi, timing ramping to 19*. First pass I had to let off due to surprise knock that was never there before. Didn't want to risk another pass so I lowered timing for the rest of the night to be safe, which may have effected my power a bit. I'm pretty sure the track must be at a higher elevation because my boost is normally spiking 21-22 and holding 20. I had to crank the boost controller 1-1/4 turns to compensate and get back to 20psi, which I never got a good run in at (was very busy tonight). Then when I got back into my town (where I tune it) it was over-boosting because I compensated for the track conditions, guess I never paid attention to that before.

I'm confident it could do 12.1x or better @ 114-115mph at 20psi with no other issues. Seems I had issues at every pass. If it wasn't down on boost or bogging the launch, I was locked out of a gear at high RPM. Bogged every launch! The track is just too sticky and I can't really slip the clutch. Haven't had a good launch at the track with this clutch in 2 track visits now :/. On the street it launches great.

Oh well, I know about what it can do now and nothing broke! Time to turn the boost down and see what kind of power I can make by playing with AFR and timing! :) (Then will come E85, I know I know you guys want me to just go E85 now lol)

Any advice of the getting locked out of gear at high rpm thing? I'm still running 10w30 mobil 1 in there, I'm thinking it's that?

[sergechronos]

Wasn't it Kormex who recommends 10w30 for the tranny? I suppose you could try Redline fluids, seems most folks have no complaints with them. Not sure it would solve your issues though. Viscosity is the biggest difference in how a shift feels IMO, ran a slightly heavier fluid in my Mustang once and had to double clutch to be able to down shift. Didn't put up with that long. While the 10w30 works great for street usage, it may just be that at high RPMS it's just too thick.

Engine Oil to Gear Oil have different ratings, but 75w90 gear old is roughly the same as 10w40, 80w90 gear oil is about 20w40, and straight 80w gear old is about the same as straight 20w motor oil. Given the way that viscosity changes with temps, could be that the cold air had it much more viscous with it being only 45 degrees out. With a 75w90 or 75w85 recommendation from Mitsu, the 10w30 may also just not be thinning out enough at high RPMs, especially with the temperatures being what they were.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Wasn't it Kormex who recommends 10w30 for the tranny? I suppose you could try Redline fluids, seems most folks have no complaints with them. Not sure it would solve your issues though. Viscosity is the biggest difference in how a shift feels IMO, ran a slightly heavier fluid in my Mustang once and had to double clutch to be able to down shift. Didn't put up with that long. While the 10w30 works great for street usage, it may just be that at high RPMS it's just too thick.

Engine Oil to Gear Oil have different ratings, but 75w90 gear old is roughly the same as 10w40, 80w90 gear oil is about 20w40, and straight 80w gear old is about the same as straight 20w motor oil. Given the way that viscosity changes with temps, could be that the cold air had it much more viscous with it being only 45 degrees out. With a 75w90 or 75w85 recommendation from Mitsu, the 10w30 may also just not be thinning out enough at high RPMs, especially with the temperatures being what they were.

Good info, it wasn't that cold here though. It was a humid 70 last night.

[sergechronos]

No idea where I got 45 degrees from..I really need to stop posting and having conversations with other people at the same time. Even still, you could try swapping out to Redline fluids or maybe to a 10w40 mobil1 and seeing what they do for you.

[kywhitelightning]

Good to hear you are back to pushing this thing again. I am really surprised you are getting 20-21psi out of those turbos on pump without knock. Spend a couple bucks, put a meth kit on there, and push both timing and afr way up. You won't be disappointed and you may reconsider the E85 idea altogether. You won't get too much more boost out of them before the L wheel will begin choking your power anyway. 22psi is all the higher I saw good gains come from. Everything above that was tempermental so my street tune was set at 22psi. I was also running 26-27* of advance up top. 28* caused trouble. Good luck in your quest for 11's.

Jeff

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Good to hear you are back to pushing this thing again. I am really surprised you are getting 20-21psi out of those turbos on pump without knock. Spend a couple bucks, put a meth kit on there, and push both timing and afr way up. You won't be disappointed and you may reconsider the E85 idea altogether. You won't get too much more boost out of them before the L wheel will begin choking your power anyway. 22psi is all the higher I saw good gains come from. Everything above that was tempermental so my street tune was set at 22psi. I was also running 26-27* of advance up top. 28* caused trouble. Good luck in your quest for 11's.

Jeff

That's pretty much what I've found.

Just going to update with the repeatable info I have found on 93 pump on dynojet VD in EvoScan. This is pretty well maxed out, any more timing and it knocks:

10:5-10:0 AFR, 24psi holding 22psi to redline, 10*-19* of timing = max of 250 2byteload, ~450whp/485wtq un-heatsoaked 50*F weather, 435whp/440wtq heatsoaked.

12:0-11:2 AFR, 17psi, 14*-23* timing = max of 230 2byteload, ~410whp/420wtq un-heatsoaked, 405whp/405wtq heatsoaked.


The only thing to note is that the area under the power curve for the 'less boost tune' appeared larger. I may keep it so that I don't have to change my oil every 500 miles to keep it from being diluted, but power-wise it seems to like being pig-rich. Seat of the pants dyno couldn't really tell the difference between the two, but I want to say the less boost tune felt more powerful.

[NOMIEZVR4]

That's pretty much what I've found.

Just going to update with the repeatable info I have found on 93 pump on dynojet VD in EvoScan. This is pretty well maxed out, any more timing and it knocks:

10:5-10:0 AFR, 24psi holding 22psi to redline, 10*-19* of timing = max of 250 2byteload, ~450whp/485wtq un-heatsoaked, 435whp/440wtq heatsoaked.

12:0-11:2 AFR, 17psi, 14*-23* timing = max of 230 2byteload, ~410whp/420wtq un-heatsoaked, 405whp/405wtq heatsoaked.


The only thing to note is that the area under the power curve for the 'less boost tune' appeared larger. I may keep it so that I don't have to change my oil every 500 miles to keep it from being diluted, but power-wise it seems to like being pig-rich. Seat of the pants dyno couldn't really tell the difference between the two, but I want to say the less boost tune felt more powerful.


Great post, also could you post 2byte Airflow numbers...I should have higher boost numbers by tonite/tomorrow...Im excited, can't wait..

Also Hey Jeff, what kind of load numbers were you hitting at 22psi and aggressive timing?

[Greg E]

That's pretty much what I've found.

Just going to update with the repeatable info I have found on 93 pump on dynojet VD in EvoScan. This is pretty well maxed out, any more timing and it knocks:

10:5-10:0 AFR, 24psi holding 22psi to redline, 10*-19* of timing = max of 250 2byteload, ~450whp/485wtq un-heatsoaked, 435whp/440wtq heatsoaked.

12:0-11:2 AFR, 17psi, 14*-23* timing = max of 230 2byteload, ~410whp/420wtq un-heatsoaked, 405whp/405wtq heatsoaked.


The only thing to note is that the area under the power curve for the 'less boost tune' appeared larger. I may keep it so that I don't have to change my oil every 500 miles to keep it from being diluted, but power-wise it seems to like being pig-rich. Seat of the pants dyno couldn't really tell the difference between the two, but I want to say the less boost tune felt more powerful.

That's because your torque curve is different between the setups. The leaner AFRs with more timing "feel" stronger because there is more torque there.

Torque is what matters. HP is just a calculated number. ;)

[kywhitelightning]

Great post, also could you post 2byte Airflow numbers...I should have higher boost numbers by tonite/tomorrow...Im excited, can't wait..

Also Hey Jeff, what kind of load numbers were you hitting at 22psi and aggressive timing?

IDK, back then it was a stock rom with the maft pulling 55-57% deep in boost. I push lots of alcohol so I didn't need a bunch of gas in boost. Any figure pulled from a log would be wrong and I'm not about to speculate. Look at your stock bin file and see where you can get 27-28* at 7000RPM. That's where the car thought it was load wise.

This is a good place to put my second plug for meth injection to twizted. A 5 gallon container of VP M1 is ~33 based on vendor. It usually takes me 4-6 months to burn through that 5 gallons. Plug those numbers into your regular usage and I would say methanol injection is significantly cheaper than running E85 all the time. At less than $600 for a full injection kit you can't go wrong. This almost offsets just the cost of larger injectors required for E85 alone. I think there are other requirements for E85 as well that will put it very close to completely offsetting this price if not, making E85 a more expensive option.

A side note to my alcohol usage, I am now running straight methanol. This seems to be giving me better results and I am not messing with the mixing water process. While most people don't recommend it this way, it has worked much better for me. I did the whole flamability test to see if a true 50/50 mix was "less" flamable like they all advertise and it turns out that nature still holds true to these two chemicals. The alcohol whether it was 50/50 or straight caught fire quick and spread until the fuel was burnt. In the 50/50 mix the water remained on the floor(huh, it must be inert) but of coarse in the straight mix it was all burnt. Flamability wise IMHO there is no difference. Once the alcohol ignites it won't stop burning until the fuel is all burnt. You'll just have less fuel to burn with a 50/50 mix.

Jeff

[TurboSinceBirth]

To run E85 all I needed was 1000cc injectors, E85 Walbro 400, fuel pump hotwire, and a 3SX fuel rail loop so under $700 on the fuel side. E85 was more readily available here with 4-5 stations but is now down to one due to the others going out of business or switching to diesel. I still prefer to run it even if it's a little more expensive since I wouldn't run methanol without a progressive system, direct port injection, multiple fail safes, and a built engine mainly because I'd want 30-40 psi levels achievable. I think it's great for someone that only wants 4-5 psi extra headroom over regular pump gas boost. I will say though that if you're running an HL wheel turbo at higher boost 1000cc injectors max out about 30 psi so you'll need a little larger if the turbos you're running will support more.

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Great post, also could you post 2byte Airflow numbers...I should have higher boost numbers by tonite/tomorrow...Im excited, can't wait..

Also Hey Jeff, what kind of load numbers were you hitting at 22psi and aggressive timing?

Just realized this said airflow and not load. I'll try to find the logs and post them.

Been doing a bunch of research, finding little nuggets of gold from Ray and others over the years. I don't think there's much left on the table for me as far as peak numbers, but the "best power under the curve tune" is what I need to find now, and is what I think will make the biggest difference in my max full weight trap speed.

[NOMIEZVR4]

Post those nuggets!

[CoopKill]

That's because your torque curve is different between the setups. The leaner AFRs with more timing "feel" stronger because there is more torque there.

Torque is what matters. HP is just a calculated number. ;)
Since the torque is higher in the richer scenario, would it be that the torque is coming on sooner in the leaner scenario that makes it feel stronger? No matter how many time I read up on hp vs torque I get confused at the concept...




A side note to my alcohol usage, I am now running straight methanol. This seems to be giving me better results and I am not messing with the mixing water process. While most people don't recommend it this way, it has worked much better for me. I did the whole flamability test to see if a true 50/50 mix was "less" flamable like they all advertise and it turns out that nature still holds true to these two chemicals. The alcohol whether it was 50/50 or straight caught fire quick and spread until the fuel was burnt. In the 50/50 mix the water remained on the floor(huh, it must be inert) but of coarse in the straight mix it was all burnt. Flamability wise IMHO there is no difference. Once the alcohol ignites it won't stop burning until the fuel is all burnt. You'll just have less fuel to burn with a 50/50 mix.

Jeff

50/50 is used as a coolant, not a fuel source. The reason water is involved at all is due to it pulling more heat from the cylinder when atomized than meth alone. There will be no difference when igniting as a liquid due to the meth sitting/evaporating on top of the water when poured in a puddle. I went the injection way for just the reasons you stated.

Can't wait to see your next progress!

[kywhitelightning]

50/50 also caused some bucking issues that went away with the higher concentration of meth. The water content increases dynamic comperssion so I think it has a lot to do with the total volume that is injected.

Jeff

[CoopKill]

What size nozzle/s were you using? I could see that being a problem.

[kywhitelightning]

2 375ml/min with the pump cranked to the max. It sprays anywhere from 1000-1100 ml/min.

Jeff

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

So, I'm still trying things on pump gas here. Finally found the dyno program everyone is using lol, thanks Nomiez.

I decided I would try cranking the boost and dropping the timing more drastically than before. 25psi holding, 16* max timing. Best peak power output yet, but it really doesn't like 1st gear. Bogs down with fuel on the 1-2 shift for some reason. 2nd and 3rd felt strong, but back-to-back runs would make it knock in the 6k range. Didn't try fine tuning it, but I plan to go even further if the turbos will do it, with less timing. For science!

Here's 20psi with 19* max timing (Red) vs 25psi with 16* max timing (Blue), both done in near identical weather conditions:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/twizted_3kgt/25psi-16DT-Low11AFRBluevs20psi-19DT-MidHigh11AFRRed_zps2aa77114.jpg~original (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/twizted_3kgt/media/25psi-16DT-Low11AFRBluevs20psi-19DT-MidHigh11AFRRed_zps2aa77114.jpg.html)

CORRECTION TO WEIGHT GRAPH OF 20PSI RUN (Got it weighed finally):
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/twizted_3kgt/20psi-19DT-Mid11AFRRed_zps63b9f18c.jpg~original
Thoughts? Comments?

Edit: Should note the 20psi you see there feels the fastest out of everything I've tried so far, and has no problems in any gear.

[NOMIEZVR4]

very nice!

In the end it looks like its just a balancing act...either more timing and less boost or vice versa. The X-Factor is the fuel being used...then the balance gets upset and we can run more boost and more timing...:D

What you CAN experiment with is diminishing returns...keep cranking the boost until you don't see healthy gains...that will give you an idea of where the turbos are being tapped out.

You're making almost as much power as I am on PUMP...I'm on e85...but I have stock timing maps and less boost though..
Nomie

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

very nice!

In the end it looks like its just a balancing act...either more timing and less boost or vice versa. The X-Factor is the fuel being used...then the balance gets upset and we can run more boost and more timing...:D

Nomie

Pretty much. Everything I've done ends up being right around the same limit, even though one feels different than the other. Boost-wise the 20psi is my favorite so far. I need to try starting off from 14psi, since I never gave that a shot. Lowest I've tried is 17psi.

[NOMIEZVR4]

I edited my post..LOL

[TwIzTeD_3kGt]

Yeah I thought it was 22psi where it stopped, but gave the MBC another turn and they held 25 and saw more power out of them. Peak power that is. The higher the peak, the more the power drops at higher RPM. I'm thinking that's my cheapo front mount in action. I'll keep getting data until I pull the trigger on the E85 stuff.

[NOMIEZVR4]

You really think its the fmic that's the culprit for the boost drop off? I don't think so...I'm running stock intercoolers...look at my graph posted in my thread. I think its just the VE of the motor that causes the power to start falling after 4.5/5k rpms...Chris IPO has a cx core and he's made plenty of power with it...my core also is a cx/greddy design...

I for one would like to see how much further you can push these things till they start blowing hot air and not producing more power. I should have more data in a week or two..installing a FMIC as we speak..;)