BPU++ Supra - 11.3 @ 125MPH

[HellBringer]

Went back to the track to try and best my previous 11.5 @ 122MPH in the cooler weather. I also set a little personal goal some time back to try and beat my old Sandstone DR650, Stage II head VR-4's time of 11.4 @ 124.7MPH. I knew I had the ET in the bag, but wasn't expecting to top the MPH as well...! :cool: Temps were still unseasonably warm in the low 70's; previous best it was in the mid 80's. No changes to the car other than dropping my KYB struts from setting 3 to 1 (softer).


Pertinent mods:

Blitz SUS intake
RMM Downpipe
Apexi N1 catback
GReddy 3-Row FMIC
UR Cam Gears set to intake +2 Exhaust -3.5
UR Flywheel
ACT Turbo Xtreme Clutch
OBDII ECU
Blitz DSBC
Apexi NEO (completely zero'd out)
EGR &TRAC delete
TRD Diff
1pc Chromoly driveshaft
16" CCW Drag pack
100 octane from the pump

Dyno'd 468RWHP




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b_q_lG_jt0



Saturday was supposed to be a regular Test n Tune but earlier in the week the track announced a 3-class 1/8 mile bracket race which ended up with a huge turnout. As a result I only got 3 runs in between the class runs.


1st Pass -- 2-step/Antilag would not engage for an unknown reason (tested it the day prior and it worked fine). I think the box is dead as later troubleshooting did not resolve. :sad: I was planning on coming out of the hole off the 2-step with lots of boost so my tire pressure was set accordingly low. Quick slip of the clutch and came out fairly decent with a 1.70 60' and then was locked out of 2nd gear, which always seems to happen when I slip this clutch hard (organic full-faced) and try to bang 2nd dirty. Wasted run and they only printed my 1/8 results only so I guess I would have been more pissed if it was a clean pass..!


Big blowup in the right lane around the 1000' mark which shut the track down for almost 2 hours.


2nd Pass -- The track was nicely prepped for the bracket racing so I did a shorter burnout to try and get some tire spin since I would be free-rev launching. Launched at 6k RPM with a very very quick slip and came out with a 1.69 60'. I took my time on the 1-2 shift; rest of the pass was clean until I got to about the 1000' and the car abruptly drifted to the left fairly hard so I got out of the gas completely and then back into it right as I crossed the traps. I can only assume the track was slick from the previous blow up, and since everyone was running 1/8 it didn't seem to affect them as much. I figured the pass was wasted and couldn't believe when I saw the slip -- 11.35 @ 118.7MPH..! I was happy but frustrated as hell -- doing the math I think it could have been a mid 11.2 had I been able to stay in it.


3rd Pass -- Let's try the left lane...! Even shorter burnout (which in hindsight I should have learned I needed more heat in the tires). Got very aggressive with the launch which stepped me sideways and a little out of the groove so I landed a crap 1.77 60'. The car felt loose all the way down the track, especially after the 1/8 so I wasn't expecting a great pass. Again I was pleasantly surprised with the slip, though -- 11.39 @ 125MPH


After almost 7hrs at the track and only 3 passes I decided to pack it in.


Slips:

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk252/AHPowelson/slips_111012.jpg



Overall pleased and frustrated at the same time. Not bad for a completely off-the-shelf, basic setup that anyone can replicate. :bigthumb: I knew the car had an 11.3 in it after my 11.50 a few months back, and now I know it has at least 11.1 in it exactly as it sits...! Unfortunately I may not find out, though; I've been itching to go single for a while and had held off to get some more BPU runs in. Not sure if I can resist the temptation any longer, though.

[Ninja Performance]

Nice runs!

-Chris

[green-lantern]

Update your sig :bigthumb:

[HellBringer]

Thanks, fellas! Video will be up in about an hour.

[HellBringer]

Video is up.

[futurevr4man]

i like the song haha. some nice runs in there too. car looks like a handfull coming off the line

[HellBringer]

Thanks! It's pretty easy to launch but to get below a 1.6 60' I'm going to need my 2-step to work and/or a more aggressive clutch. Without the 2-step I have to slip the clutch because the organic, full-faced disk with the light flywheel just won't shock the tires hard enough to spin them on a dump the way I need them to. I learned that the first time I took this one to the track. With the 2-step it's MUCH easier - WOT clutch dump - and let the tires do the work! I have the billet RPS carbon/carbon with the heavy chromoly flywheel from my previous Supra that will eventually go in when it's truly needed.

[green-lantern]

How high are the RPM's when you're launching?

Cool vids BTW

[HellBringer]

I'm leaving at around 6k RPM. When my antilag was working I had the 2-step set at around 5000RPM.

[HellBringer]

I re-encoded the video and re-uploaded it since YT effed up the quality on the first version badly.. Should be a mild improvement.

[stealthII]

Nice dude. 1st gear looks almost worthless. What's your goal with the car? Looking for 10's on the same setup?

[mb3000]

Looks like a blast to drive!

Another +1 on the video. Very well put together.

[HellBringer]

Nice dude. 1st gear looks almost worthless. What's your goal with the car? Looking for 10's on the same setup?


First goes by pretty quick when you're launching at ~6k and trying to shift below the stock 6850 limiter..! The car has a fairly easy 11.1 in it exactly as it sits, but I likely won't be able to make it back to find out due the weather getting colder every day... Going to try next Wed, but unless a freak warm front comes through it's unlikely... :(

The short term goal is to swap the single turbo setup (Boost Logic 67mm) from my '97 auto over to this car, and put the stock twins on the auto and then back to the track with both. The plan is to run solid 10's with the stock fuel system, MAS, etc... with this car and solid 11's with the auto. Long term... Sky's the limit...!




Looks like a blast to drive!

Another +1 on the video. Very well put together.


Thanks! Though admittedly I was lazy with the video -- I've used the same intro and format for the last few... :Innocent:

[AdamVR4]

Blitz SUS intake
RMM Downpipe
Apexi N1 catback
GReddy 3-Row FMIC
UR Cam Gears set to intake +2 Exhaust -3.5
UR Flywheel
ACT Turbo Xtreme Clutch
OBDII ECU
Blitz DSBC
Apexi NEO (completely zero'd out)
EGR &TRAC delete
TRD Diff
1pc Chromoly driveshaft
16" CCW Drag pack
100 octane from the pump

Dyno'd 468RWHP

How did your DR650 VR4's mod list compare? Ignore the turbos since a Supra basically comes with DR650's... I can't help but smile imagining your old VR4 race your Supra.

Watching you take your hand away from the shifter and put it in your lap during the burn outs reminded me of the recent 3S TX Gathering... There was so much wind that they limited us to 1/8th-mile only, so I was just trying to get used to these QTP's @ 17 psi. I went through the water twice and each time tached up and dumped for a burn out that felt so effortless I had to confirm that the wheels were spinning. I'm going to dyno before I go back, but next time I'm not sure how I want to try to launch these. I've got to clean the rocks from the parking lot off of them or I'm bound to get wheel hop. I feel like I need launch control or a new set of balls because I was bogging damn near every try.

[HellBringer]

Adam,

RE: OEM CT12B turbos -- that's a common misconception. In reality they're closer to a 13t:


CT12B Compressor: 39mm inducer/58mm exducer
Turbine: 52mm inducer/44mm exducer

13T Compressor: 40.56mm inducer/56mm exducer
TD04HL Turbine: 52mm inducer/Exducer 46mm exducer

HT12 Compressor (my version of DR650): 42mm inducer/57mm exducer
TE04H Turbine: 51mm inducer/48mm exducer


At 100% duty cycle the CT12B will spike to 23psi, drop quickly to 20ish and only hold around 18psi to redline. FWIW, my DR650's would spike to 28ish and hold 22-23 to redline (wastegates heavily shimmed)


Here are all the mod details on my old VR-4: Abram P - Dynamic Racing (http://www.dynamicracing.com/mw/index.php?title=Abram_P)

I will say that the 11.48 run was a bit of a ringer; the car was a fairly consistent 11.7 - 11.8 @ 121-122MPH on most days. The day I ran 11.4 (and an 11.6) I had some weight reduction (no passenger seat, rear seats were already removed, no AA spoiler, etc..) and tuning-wise I had the timing CRANKED on top of +5* over base timing with 720cc injectors -- probably well over 30 degrees of timing. Not to mention power-shifting...!

If you pare down the Supra's mod list to what really 'counts', it's very basic in comparison. The cam gears only boost the mid-range well below the RPM band I spend at WOT. The NEO is completely zero'd out since I don't have a wideband on the car. The OBDII (from 97-98) ecu is a drop-in swap (requires 1 pin to be grounded) and runs a MUCH fatter mixture down into the mid 10's at WOT (check dyno graph); the OBDI ecu has a lean condition at higher boost levels that can't be 'tuned' out. I stand to pick up 10-15WHP from leaning out the a/f but I've been to lazy to install the wideband I have laying around. Unlike the 3/s you don't have to drown the cylinders in fuel to make knock-free power. :p The chromoly driveshaft is heavier than stock and is only there because I had it from my last Supra, along with the diff -- I don't 'need' either at this point. EGR and Trac delete pretty equivalent to the 3/s vacuum reduction and more an aesthetics thing. Lastly, the LWFW is hurting more than help...! Not making excuses here, just providing some additional color for the sake of the conversation. Point being is you can remove all but the basic "BPU" parts and the car would still run within the margin of error as it sits now.


RE: AWD launch in the QTP's -- You'll definitely need to clean them off as best as possible first. I think I'd start with 20psi or maybe even 22psi, and adjust the pressure accordingly. If you're blowing them away then drop them 1psi and try again. A 2-step/antilag will truly make life a lot easier; otherwise you're going to have to slip the clutch from a very high RPM to get the car moving. There are 2 ways to go about it 1) dump the clutch and let the tires do the work or 2) slip the hell out of the clutch. If you have a C/C or similar then you can be successful with option 2; however, I prefer to let the tires do the work. You have to leave with the turbos lit with enough power to shock them loose, though; that is where the 2-step comes in. If the car is light enough then you can get away with a free-rev clutch dump like Matt. In the absence of a 2-step it's going to require some experimentation, and the technique will need to be adjusted to suit current track conditions.

Check out: Rush Racing Development - Antilag Launch Control Units (http://rushracingdev.com/al.html)

I have their old/original anti-lag box, and it builds boost FAST. I still need to investigate why it's no longer working, though...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHR1tncFTos

[futurevr4man]

abram, i would like an opinion on something. if you would like to move this to pm's i understand

what kind of tire would you recommend for street driving that would perform well on the strip as well? my car is not a racecar, but i am still shooting for 10's with my setup.

i have some ecsta supras on the car right now, and i think they are really crappy tires. i bought some nitto invos for my next set, and im hoping for good results from those. they seemed to be highly liked by many people and are supposed to perform well in all conditions.

just wondering if you had an opinion on good street tires that still perform well at the strip. this is all spurring from your comment about letting the clutch do the work or the tires, and i would rather the tires do the work.

[HellBringer]

Sorry for the delay -- I completely missed this reply.





just wondering if you had an opinion on good street tires that still perform well at the strip. this is all spurring from your comment about letting the clutch do the work or the tires, and i would rather the tires do the work.


To clarify: My comment RE: letting the tires do the work was strictly in relation to a true bias-ply drag tire which respond/react MUCH differently than a regular radial, "drag" or not. Other than both being round, there is simply no comparison between the two with respect to the launch technique, etc... Contrary to the name, drag radials are much better suited for the street than the track, within the context of a manually-shifted trans. The issue with AWD at the track, regardless of tire choice, is unless you have enough power (and drivetrain mods to withstand the 'abuse') to clean the tires off and hopefully get a little heat in them, you don't get to leverage a lot of the 'advantage' a drag radial may bring. A cold drag radial and a well-prepped track will be VERY prone to wheel hop, which is gauranteed to wreck shit!

That said, for the street and under 500-550WHP I'd just stick with a good Z-rated radial. The new Michelin Pilot Super Sports and Dunlop Star Spec Direzzas come to mind, but there are a lot of good Z-rated tires currently on the market The major downside to a drag radial is they are NO fun in the rain. On an AWD car and in-town driving it may be manageable, but no way in hell would you want to be cruising down the highway in a heavy downpour on a drag radial. If your car is more of a weekend/nice weather toy then you may want to just jump to a good DR and call it a day. If it is a DD or an all-weather warrior then stick with a regular radial.

As for drag radials, I've used (ordered best worst):

Mickey Thompson ET Drag Radial
BFG g-Force T/A Drag Radial
Toyo R888
Nitto 555R

I can go into specifics on each if requested.

*EDIT*

Also, everyone seems to overlook a good alignment, especially when lowered. I think people assume because they have AWD there's already contact patch to be sufficient, and with the way these cars transfer weight it's much more critical than made out to be, IMO. The difference between 1-1.5 degrees of camber can be the difference between hooking and uncontrollable spinning in a RWD, and it's just as critical with AWD as well.

[AdamVR4]

Agreed on all counts. I had my vr4 aligned with the qtp's.

[futurevr4man]

thanks for the reply.

a little blurb about my car and why im not sure what to do after reading your comment...

its a built 3.75L car with big turbos. its maxing my 550's on wastegate boost (1 bar) and i expect 900 at the most when its on race gas, with a good fuel setup etc. i assume when i turn it up on pump gas, it should be pushing 600 - 650 at the wheels.

the problem is that i DO want the car to have the ability to be daily driven. i currently dont daily drive it, but a lot of that has to do with the weather. so maybe i should stick with a high performance all season (kinda like the invo's i have) or maybe even a drag radial? i would think ill have enough power to spin the tires and get a little heat in them next time i take it to the strip, but i am not nearly experienced enough to know currently.

tires are admittedly one of my biggest areas of ignorance on cars, and thats why i am asking these silly questions. i plan to do a lot of research if i get another set of wheels and tires for the strip. It is also fun to pick people's brains though :D

[futurevr4man]

to adam - on your alignment, what do you recommend or even NOT recommend as far as camber and toe go? i have a good alignment guy nearby with a really nice rack, and i can get everything set to what i want... and i will be doing that very soon. so im curious what you have to say about that. and yes, my car is lowered... its actually a little too low for me, but thats another conversation.

[AdamVR4]

I think I zeroed the toe and set the front camber barely negative and the rear barely (degree or less) positive.

[AdamVR4]

RE: AWD launch in the QTP's -- You'll definitely need to clean them off as best as possible first. I think I'd start with 20psi or maybe even 22psi, and adjust the pressure accordingly. If you're blowing them away then drop them 1psi and try again. A 2-step/antilag will truly make life a lot easier; otherwise you're going to have to slip the clutch from a very high RPM to get the car moving. There are 2 ways to go about it 1) dump the clutch and let the tires do the work or 2) slip the hell out of the clutch. If you have a C/C or similar then you can be successful with option 2; however, I prefer to let the tires do the work. You have to leave with the turbos lit with enough power to shock them loose, though; that is where the 2-step comes in. If the car is light enough then you can get away with a free-rev clutch dump like Matt. In the absence of a 2-step it's going to require some experimentation, and the technique will need to be adjusted to suit current track conditions.

Came back to review this nugget because I just bought a WOT box. I guess my plan will be to start the evening at 22 psi, slowly go through the water with all 4 tires, 2-step & dump the clutch @ 5500 rpm's to fling off parking lot debris and water, then roll up and dump the clutch at the same rpm on clean and moist tires...

Last time at the track (November), I was able to semi-effortlessly spin the QTP's after going through the water. It felt completely foreign and terrifying to me because the car wasn't moving, but apparently at least the passenger side tires were spinning. How long should I try to hold it? Until the car yanks itself forward? I've never taken a RWD car to the track. My loyalty to this car has stunted my growth for sure.

[HellBringer]

In hindsight you might want to start with 18-20psi; 22 might be a little high. Worst case with too much pressure is you’ll just blow the tires away. As long as you don’t peg the limiter and sit on it with no forward motion, you’ll want to stay in it, though – you’ll want wheelspin. If you don’t already have one, get a good tire gauge that reads in ¼ or at least ½ psi increments, that doesn’t go any higher than 30-40psi max. Once you really start to dial things in, you’ll be making ½ psi changes. Another thing to consider, which I learned the hard way, is that if one side of the car is facing the sun and the other isn’t, the side facing the sun is going to read higher, and that will affect your adjustments. A mismatch in pressure side to side can cause major stability issues on the big end. If the sun is still shining I would try to keep all 4 tires shaded for this reason. Either way you’ll want all 4 exactly the same Since you can’t really do a good smokey burnout, I would check tire pressure immediately after the run to see how much they’re increasing.

Your plan sounds good, but you might have better success just driving through the water box and then doing your ‘burnout’ without the initial clean-off to minimize the stress on the drivetrain. I might suggest driving through the box and once your rear tires are clear, pre-load the drivetrain with the E-brake, tach up on the 2-step and drop the clutch and let the car continue to spin forward until the tires start to grab hard. As long as the car stay straight I would stay in it as long as you can. If you overshoot the tree without hooking up then either the track is horrible and/or you’ve got too much tire pressure and/or you’re not getting all the water off the tire and the launch pad. In that case, you may want to try your original plan of doing a quick spin to clean them off better first. I wouldn’t try to pedal it too much during the burnout; as soon as you modulate the gas they may end up hooking prematurely when you could’ve benefitted with more heat in the tire.

On the launch I wouldn’t just side-step the pedal. I’d suggest pre-loading with the E-brake as best you can and when you’re ready to ride I’d do a quick slip of partial-engagement to get the car moving and then a full dump from there. This will get you moving forward and the weight starting to transfer before the tires break loose. Another thing to consider is how the 2-step engages/disengages. What I would suggest is a Normally-Closed switch on the top side of the pedal so that the 2-step is engaged all the way until the clutch is fully engaged. If you have it trigger off of the bottom of the pedal travel, then the 2-step will likely disengage prematurely, before the clutch is engaged. Another option (which I’ve used after struggling with working off the pedal) is a momentary switch. If you watch some of my in-car videos where I’m using the 2-step (it failed due to a switch issue on the passes in this thread – so this one won’t help you) I have a momentary button/switch velcro’d to the right hand side of the steering wheel. I launch with both hands on the wheel holding in the switch to engage the 2-step and then when I take my hand off to grab the shifter it disengages. Sort of rigged, but it’s worked well for me, and that lets me control when the 2-step disengages rather than the pedal travel. Now if you have a 2-step that works off vehicle speed like any standalone then that is ideal.

Best of luck and congrats and manning up and running a real tire at the track. It’s a lot to soak in and master, so don’t be discouraged as the learning curve is fairly steep to start. In my opinion there’s no ‘street tire glory’ to be had. I’m more impressed when someone goes out with the right equipment to run a number than someone that struggles with street tires and maybe gets a few lucky passes in. You’ll be way more consistent and your drivetrain will live a happier longer life!

[AdamVR4]

When you preload the trans with the e-brake, do you slip the clutch for just a moment then fully disengage it before launching or do you slip it for a moment, then promptly launch?

I'll keep this post in mind as I'm installing the WOT box. Thank you for all the info.

The tires only made sense. There's a reason they require the sixth point at 9.99 OR 135 mph................